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Posted: 3/1/2006 2:17:21 PM EDT
So, my dad got his official denial back from the PSP. They're reason for denial is a 1971 arrest when he was charged with possesion of drug par. & resisting arrest (which, after talking to an office, was really attempt to evade). After going to court, all charges were dropped & he paid a $37 fine. I'm guessing the township screwed up and this was kept on record or something. My dad's going up to the police station hopefully this week to see what they say.
Any suggestions on how to proceed? Thanks Mark Original post: Has anyone ever had trouble getting approved by the State Police to purchase a firearm??? My dad has been contacted by the gun shop after 10 days and was told his application is "undetermined". The PSP wants more paperwork and requested he waive basically all his privacy rights. What happens if he says no? Can they deny his application with no proof of anything to deny it? For what it's worth, he's not nuts & has never been arrested. Any suggestions??? |
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If he had a criminal record , or was some other type of "prohibited Person" , he
would have been denied There is most likely some problem determining his identity , thus the delay. It happens sometimes. Keep in mind that the PSP is only Upholding the Law and Federal Regulations. Someone with a bad record could have a similar name , or it might even be a case of Identity theft. I suggest that your Dad provide his Birth cert. -drivers license- Service discharge - or any similar documents they request - so the matter can be cleared up. And yes , if they can't determine that he is not prohibited from possessing a firearm, (by not being able to verify his identity) They CAN and WILL Deny him - FOREVER |
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They already have his drivers license & social security #. What else do the need to verify his identity? They specifically asked for him to grant access to his physians & medical records. Personally, I wouldn't give this to anyone, including the state police. How can they deny him with no cause. If they have no reason for denial, wouln't they have to approve? I would think they'd need something solid to deny a firearm purchase. Thanks Mark |
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The Feds say ask if you(on the 4473) have ever been convicted of a crime which the judge could have sentenced you to a year or more even if you never had to serve time for the conviction. The problem in Pa is that our crimes codes are different than many states. In many jurisdictions that criteria would include felonies generally and thus cause a person to lose his gun rights. In Pa our misdemeanor convictions1st and 2nd degree I believe carry a conviction of a year+. It is rare that anyone does time for M1 or M2s in Pa, but the sentence is what gets guys in trouble in the eyes of the Feds.
So his record needs to be pretty spotless. Example I had a customer who got busted for drag racing in the late 1960s. He also fled. He was 19 or 20 I think. For years he bought guns without any problem. Even after the NICS Check. Then one day he goes into research and then gets denied. It turns out that the little PD was still updating records with the state and his conviction finally found its way into the NICS system. As a result he was prohibited. In fact, all along he was prohibited, but had no idea. Prior to NICS there was no way of knowing, and without the PD getting its records computerized and up to date there was also no way of knowing. He had to get rid of his collection. Also if you dad was institutionalized INVOLUNTARILY he would too get denied. If he does get a denial response have him contact an attorney that is up on Fed and Pa gun laws. |
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This happen to a friend when he tried to make a purchase at a show . You can apply with the PSP to see why they shoot him down .
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Slide,
You are correct. The PSP has a denial challenge form that should be filled out if a denial happens. I can think of more than one instance where a customer was denied then after sending in the challenge form they got a letter stating a reversal of the challenge. I am not sure how the system works at the PSP, but remember they are a bureaucracy and things don't always go according to logic. |
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As far as crimianl records go, he should be spotless. Was arrested for underage drinking ones when 17ish. He also hasn't been institutionalized unless outpatient rehab counts.
The shop gave him a form that the state police wants filled out. I haven't seen it, but it sound pretty intrusive. He said they'd have access to medical records along with some other things. Does anyone know if this is a standard form or if they're asking for something unusual? Thanks again Mark |
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The shop is giving him the standard challenge form it sounds like. Which means he got denied. It is the only form we get from the State Police other than the application/record of sale.
The challenge form is not very intrusive. The state needs it filled out by the applicant so they can send him the results of the denial. They will not do this over the phone. Rehab??? Was it voluntary or was he committed? Was it a result of an arrest or part of an ARD program? There is a bunch of gray area that exists with regard to NICS checks. The bigger issue is was he denied? If so there is a whole nutha list of bad things that can happen. You see when you fail the NICS check the law see that as "tryingto purchase a firearm as a prohibited person" It is technically a felony. The other issue is that if the denial sticks, he can no longer own any firearms period. Also denials, so I am told, are sent from the PSP to the county DA office in which the applicant resides. The Sate will review the denial and so will the county DA and if either of them think they have a case they can prosecute based on the denial. It does not sound like it happens often. Most times the state allows a 48 hour + window to lawfully dispose of any firearms held prior to the denial. Sometime they can simply confiscate. So you do not want to let the situation get out of control. Have your dad fill out the Challenge form. Also have him go to your county courthouse and pay to get a copy of his criminal history. Anyone can get their criminal history that way and then you can see what is on his record if anything. If nothing is on it, simply wait until the challenge form comes back and see what happens. If there is something questionable on his criminal history report, contact an attorney and be proactive. |
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Thanks for the info.
The rehab was a voluntary alcohol thing maybe 10-15 years ago, nothing that unusual. I just talked to him and he said the form# is sp 4-197 (4-2003) and titled pennsylvania instant check system challenge. I'll talk to him about filling it out and will have him go get a copy of his criminal history. Thanks Mark |
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that is the standard challenge form. Nothing to worry about. Like I said I have seen many times where an individual has sent the challenge form into the state and their denial has been reversed. Not too terribly uncommon. They will get back to him within 1 month of submitting the challenge form so sending it in asap is smart. Good luck.
John |
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I would hazard a guess that based on the voluntary rehab.... They are trying to answer the question about someone being addicted to alcohol etc.... If dad's clean and sober, let'em go and get the answer.... Then it should be put to bed....forever.....
I heard of this once before, and once they found out the guy was sober for like 15 + years.... he was OK to go.... |
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I had a hold put on my background check the first time I bought a handgun. I wouldn't worry about it.
Wonder if a passport photo would help. Eta: haven't had a problem since the first handgun I bought. All in 30 minutes or less. Faster than QuickieLube |
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"Also if you dad was institutionalized INVOLUNTARILY he would too get denied."
Need a little more than just the invol commitment (302). It has been a long time since I dealt with this issue, but you need more than a 302. In order for a 302 to diable anyone, a doctor would have to file a certificate with PSP that states the subject who was 302'd was in need of mental health treatment. If a subject is 302'd and the doctor finds the commitment was needed and the subject in need of mental health treatment, the doctor/health care provider is required to send this certificate to PSP. This procedure helps to prevent people from being disabled merely because someone (family member/LEO etc.) had them committed. Haven't checked the appropriate statutes lately, but that was the law a few years ago. -Coley |
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Coley,
That is correct. I am not up on the law nearly enough to have given the detail that you have. |
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I had to do a challenge for my carry permit, it was no big deal, I filled out the challenge form, sent it in, the denial was overturned, the PSP sent me a letter saying that I am not denied, I took the letter to the permit office and got my permit.
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I load arrest records and do criminal history checks all the time where I work. I can load a guys name that was arrested and see his arrest history pop up with anywhere from 3 - 10 SSAN's. I have run NCIC checks and have had a name and SSAN come back with a completely differnt name or AKA's come back on the SSAN and KNOW it's not the person I ran that hit.
Bottom line, his info may have popped up under a different name (it happens, I see it often enough). So I "assume" PSP, knowing this happens, just wants to prove he is NOT the person that produced the hit. Just a guess on my part. |
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Just have your dad fill the form out and send it in. If they are asking him for medical release records they are attempting to make sure he was not involuntarily committed. They will have already checked his criminal history. The more common name you have the more issues come up with the instant check, ie..information comes back either showing someone with the same name and dob was either involuntarily committed or has some type of criminal record. It may also be that some turd somewhere along the line may have used your fathers name,dob or SS# as an alias, this happens more than you would think.
A Police officer or mental health delegate in PA can pick you up and sign the appropriate paperwork to have you evaluated by a physician, the physician then decides is you will be 302 committed. As far as being too intrusive with the information, he is probably better off finding out now what the problem is than for him to be denied. If he is denied they will send the paperwork out to the nearest PSP barracks to where he attempted to purchase the firearm, then they will initiate a criminal investigation into the matter, they will then be more than able to obtain all of the appropriate information. I will try to remember to check back in on this thread. If you have any questions you can either post them here or PM me. |
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Yep...sadly my own brother committed a felony crime using my name and SS#. Prick even served his sentence using my ID. Funnier yet, he was already a convicted felon, so why bother? As it turns out, I went to re-new my carry permit, and was denied! State police sent me the letter of 'challenge' you gentlemen are referring to. Within a couple weeks I received notice I was arrested and convicted on a 'domestic violence' charge in Allentown. I call, and relate to them that I was NEVER in Allentown, and most certainly did not commit the crime of 'domestic violence' in Allentown or ANY city for that matter. State Police, very doubtful of my claims of my innocence, give me the ultimatum of coming to the station and subject myself for fingerprinting for comparison, or be denied. I try explaining that EVERY agency from the ATF to FBI already have my prints on file for previous class 3 purchases. Now mind you, I'm getting somewhat perturbed! Off to be printed at the station, and treated pretty piss-poorly at that. 'Bout a week or so later I get the almighty 'reversal' letter with a particular 'catch.' It was a letter I have to carry with me for the rest of my natural life that 'proves' I'm 'me' and NOT somebody else. Totally unacceptable to me as this means my record is still 'tainted.' I call Harrisburg's top guy out there in the 'records division' and he informs me that my record will forever be attached to my brother's, and the letter that they provided is adequate/sufficient enough. Long story short, I obtain an attorney. Many missed days of work and loss of income, not to mention attorney fees. A judge orders my record expunged. Welp...as it turns out, I just found out 6 years later they've yet to do just that. Essentially, due to their failure to act on the judges orders, I recently failed a back ground check for a prospectful job opportunity...I LOST A JOB!!! So more loss of income, more attorney fees, and now I live and reside in New Mexico, so I'll have to fly in for court appearances. Currently searching for a NEW lawyer, and a freaken job. Good luck to you, and your Father! |
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In possession of drug paraphernalia in 1971? Who wasn't? Hell, they might as well of cited him for breathing, like everyone else was doing.......... |
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I know...I don't get it. Would either of those charges prevent him from buying a gun even if they stuck?
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It sounds to me that the felony charges were dropped and your dad took a plea to a lesser offense I would bet an M1 or an M2. Like i said earlier those convictions will keep you from owning firearms forever.
The only relief is to get in front of the board of pardons. Not easy and NOT cheap! May not be possible at all as it was a drug offense and the resist of arrest. Gonna be a tough one. Now comes the un savory part. If he has ANY firearms I would suggest a lawful removal from his ownership. Mere possesion at this point is a felony. I would hope he can find a way out of this mess, but it is not easy in Pa. |
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It will all depend on exactly what he plead guilty to. If he was convicted of a misdemeanor 2 or higher section of Title 35, he will not be allowed to own a firearm.
Do an online search for "PA crimes code section 6105", you should find some interesting reading material. Section 6105 Persons not to Possess, Use, Manufacture, Control, Sell or Transfer Firearms. Deals specifically with your fathers problem. I am a bit confused about you saying the charges were dropped but he paid a fine. Usually paying a fine means you either plead guilty to something or were found guilty of something. Either way your father will need to look into this further. He can either contact the Police Dept. that charged him to see if they have the answer or he can go to the County Courthouse and check his own record through the Prothonotary's Office. His denial should have triggered an investigation, he may be contacted by the Police in your area and they will get to the bottom of it. |
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your mom can buy it, or you, a father/son may purchase handguns and gift them, i believe it is father to son, but, i think it may also apply the other way
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You can not buy a firearm for a prohibited person. It is called a Straw Purchase and it IS a felony and the Feds do enforce it. It not only puts the prohibited person in jeapordy, but also the person buying the firearm commits a felony and it can cause the FFL a boat load of trouble in the process too. Don't straw purchase
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hmm...from what ive been told by a former co-worker, who was in a similiar situation, his local FFL advised him to do just that...now, the legality, i assume was cool, but, ive never heard of "straw purchasing", nor have i seen anything on it when i researched the legality of his gun purchase a year ago....although in the same situation, i would not purchase a firearm for anyone
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Would there be a problem with my mom purchasing a gun if it's kept in the same house with my dad? This would be her gun and would be in their home? The gun would be there for home defense and if the need for it comes up they'd have to deal with it at that time.
He called and spoke with someone from the PSP. They want him to write them a letter describing the incident in his words and said they'd take that to the township police. At this point I doubt they'll reverse the denial. Thanks Mark |
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Just do a Google search for "Straw Purchase" or even better yet go on the BATF web site and read all kinds of stuff about it. It is very real and if any FFL suggests to a customer to buy a gun for a prohibited person, he is committing a felony and is not a very scrupulous dealer.
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Agreed, Straw Purchases are not the way to go, especially these days. Trouble is not if he goes to the range and shoots as I doubt that anybody will check him out. The trouble is if God forbid he ever had to use the gun for even a righteous shooting. No matter, they will check the gun and its legal owner. Then he is in for a worldful of S&!T.
Best to do as others have said, get this thing fixed the right way. The only part I don’t understand is how he does not know the details of the "incident". |
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I'm not talking about a straw purchase.
I just want to know if it's legal for my mom to own a firearm while living in the same home as my criminal dad. She wants a firearm for home protection and would like to purchase one if he can't. Again...this gun would be for her. Thanks Mark |
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From Pa State Police PICS web page.
"The PICS background check program issues only approval or denial determinations. By law, no record information may be disseminated as a result of the background check. If a record is identified on an individual's background check, the call is transferred to an operator. The operator then reviews the record, and if it is not prohibiting, approves the sale. If there is a question as to whether or not the record is prohibiting, the operator may place the file in research for up to 15 days. As soon as the operator has a definite answer, the dealer is called and either given an approval number or advised that the sale is denied and the individual should be given a Pennsylvania Instant Check System Challenge Form." Note the last sentence. He should have been given the Challenge Form. He can also request his own criminal history from this page. It cost 10 bucks. I'm not sure what information he would need to provide. Probably the same as for the PICS check. Good Luck. |
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A pardon is not his only option if he is prohibited. PA allows for a relief of disability if certain conditions are met like 10years have passed, no convictions since, and it has been determined that there is no funding appropriated for relief on the federal level. from what I understand if these are met the court "shall" relieve you of your disability and the Feds follow as respecting the states rights. But this only counts for state level offenses. Not Federal..
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76Mark,
1st comment, I had a friend who was denied because of a DUI 26 years ago. He had been purchasing firearms up until the PICS. He and his attorney completed the necessary paperwork and went before a Judge. The Judge looked at the facts (nothing on his record for 26 years) and granted the motion to expunge this from the records. He went back to the PSP and can now buy firearms again. It did take a while to get worked out but he was successful. Your Dad needs to get an attorney that is familiar with these matters. 2nd comment, Having Mom own the gun in the same household is, in my opinion, a very gray area. It is legal for her to own her own gun but Dad (at this time) couldn't even touch it without being in violation. If something were to happen and the police had to come into the house and saw the gun and asked who's it was, even if both said it belonged to Mom they would then investigate, get the FFL involved (looking at the paperwork), and probably be very suspicous, unless it was well known that mom was a hunter, target shooter, etc. It is not right but typically most people assume that if there is a gun in the house that the man owns it. It would be a case of guilty until mom proves she's innocent. By the way, I am not a lawyer but I am an FFL. I read everything that the BATFE and PSP send me and the biggest topic currently is the Strawman purchases (because of the terrorist threat). They give you tips on how to possibly spot a straw purchase. Under these tips if a man and woman came in looking at firearms, especially handguns and the man was giving the woman tips on what to buy it would immediately raise my suspicions. Even if it were a younger man with an older women. Even if they were looking at what would be considered ladies guns. It is really a tough decision unless the FFL personally knows the people. If a straw purchase is made and the FFL is brought into the investigation he has to defend himself and prove conclusively that he did not know or even have a suspicion that it was to be a straw purchase. It may sound like I am paranoid but the penalties for an FFL knowingly completing a straw purchase would be devestating to the average hard working person. |
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Valkyrie, Where could I find some info on this? I have a buddy who got in a spot of trouble 11 years ago to be exact and has a first degree misdemeanor as a result. It is killing him because his record was spotless before and has been spotless since. I have been rather careful in regards to letting him shoot with us and he has begun looking into the pardon process, but this sounds like it may be the way to go. Where should we get started? Anyone have any idea? |
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