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11/20/2019 5:07:11 PM
Posted: 3/1/2006 1:17:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 8:07:56 AM EST by 76Mark]
So, my dad got his official denial back from the PSP. They're reason for denial is a 1971 arrest when he was charged with possesion of drug par. & resisting arrest (which, after talking to an office, was really attempt to evade). After going to court, all charges were dropped & he paid a $37 fine. I'm guessing the township screwed up and this was kept on record or something. My dad's going up to the police station hopefully this week to see what they say.

Any suggestions on how to proceed?

Thanks

Mark

Ori­ginal post:
Has anyone ever had trouble getting approved by the State Police to purchase a firearm??? My dad has been contacted by the gun shop after 10 days and was told his application is "undetermined". The PSP wants more paperwork and requested he waive basically all his privacy rights. What happens if he says no? Can they deny his application with no proof of anything to deny it? For what it's worth, he's not nuts & has never been arrested.

Any suggestions???
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:51:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 2:53:44 PM EST by AKsRule]
If he had a criminal record , or was some other type of "prohibited Person" , he
would have been denied

There is most likely some problem determining his identity , thus the delay.

It happens sometimes.

Keep in mind that the PSP is only Upholding the Law and Federal Regulations.

Someone with a bad record could have a similar name , or it might even be a case of Identity theft.

I suggest that your Dad provide his Birth cert. -drivers license- Service discharge - or any
similar documents they request - so the matter can be cleared up.

And yes , if they can't determine that he is not prohibited from possessing a firearm,
(by not being able to verify his identity)

They CAN and WILL Deny him - FOREVER
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 3:28:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 3:30:30 PM EST by 76Mark]

Originally Posted By AKsRule:
I suggest that your Dad provide his Birth cert. -drivers license- Service discharge - or any
similar documents they request - so the matter can be cleared up.

And yes , if they can't determine that he is not prohibited from possessing a firearm,
(by not being able to verify his identity)

They CAN and WILL Deny him - FOREVER



They already have his drivers license & social security #. What else do the need to verify his identity?

They specifically asked for him to grant access to his physians & medical records. Personally, I wouldn't give this to anyone, including the state police.

How can they deny him with no cause. If they have no reason for denial, wouln't they have to approve? I would think they'd need something solid to deny a firearm purchase.

Thanks

Mark
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 3:56:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 5:32:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 5:47:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:00:41 PM EST
As far as crimianl records go, he should be spotless. Was arrested for underage drinking ones when 17ish. He also hasn't been institutionalized unless outpatient rehab counts.

The shop gave him a form that the state police wants filled out. I haven't seen it, but it sound pretty intrusive. He said they'd have access to medical records along with some other things. Does anyone know if this is a standard form or if they're asking for something unusual?

Thanks again

Mark
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:27:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 1:28:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 1:42:25 AM EST by 76Mark]
Thanks for the info.

The rehab was a voluntary alcohol thing maybe 10-15 years ago, nothing that unusual.

I just talked to him and he said the form# is sp 4-197 (4-2003) and titled pennsylvania instant check system challenge.

I'll talk to him about filling it out and will have him go get a copy of his criminal history.

Thanks

Mark
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 3:27:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 3:28:12 AM EST by hipwr223]
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 12:45:49 PM EST
I would hazard a guess that based on the voluntary rehab.... They are trying to answer the question about someone being addicted to alcohol etc.... If dad's clean and sober, let'em go and get the answer.... Then it should be put to bed....forever.....
I heard of this once before, and once they found out the guy was sober for like 15 + years.... he was OK to go....
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 3:22:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 3:23:55 PM EST by Krackels]
I had a hold put on my background check the first time I bought a handgun. I wouldn't worry about it.

Wonder if a passport photo would help.

Eta: haven't had a problem since the first handgun I bought. All in 30 minutes or less. Faster than QuickieLube
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 12:24:54 PM EST
"Also if you dad was institutionalized INVOLUNTARILY he would too get denied."

Need a little more than just the invol commitment (302). It has been a long time since I dealt with this issue, but you need more than a 302. In order for a 302 to diable anyone, a doctor would have to file a certificate with PSP that states the subject who was 302'd was in need of mental health treatment. If a subject is 302'd and the doctor finds the commitment was needed and the subject in need of mental health treatment, the doctor/health care provider is required to send this certificate to PSP. This procedure helps to prevent people from being disabled merely because someone (family member/LEO etc.) had them committed. Haven't checked the appropriate statutes lately, but that was the law a few years ago.

-Coley
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 3:04:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 4:17:30 PM EST
I had to do a challenge for my carry permit, it was no big deal, I filled out the challenge form, sent it in, the denial was overturned, the PSP sent me a letter saying that I am not denied, I took the letter to the permit office and got my permit.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 3:47:52 PM EST
I load arrest records and do criminal history checks all the time where I work. I can load a guys name that was arrested and see his arrest history pop up with anywhere from 3 - 10 SSAN's. I have run NCIC checks and have had a name and SSAN come back with a completely differnt name or AKA's come back on the SSAN and KNOW it's not the person I ran that hit.

Bottom line, his info may have popped up under a different name (it happens, I see it often enough). So I "assume" PSP, knowing this happens, just wants to prove he is NOT the person that produced the hit.

Just a guess on my part.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 4:43:03 PM EST
Just have your dad fill the form out and send it in. If they are asking him for medical release records they are attempting to make sure he was not involuntarily committed. They will have already checked his criminal history. The more common name you have the more issues come up with the instant check, ie..information comes back either showing someone with the same name and dob was either involuntarily committed or has some type of criminal record. It may also be that some turd somewhere along the line may have used your fathers name,dob or SS# as an alias, this happens more than you would think.

A Police officer or mental health delegate in PA can pick you up and sign the appropriate paperwork to have you evaluated by a physician, the physician then decides is you will be 302 committed.

As far as being too intrusive with the information, he is probably better off finding out now what the problem is than for him to be denied. If he is denied they will send the paperwork out to the nearest PSP barracks to where he attempted to purchase the firearm, then they will initiate a criminal investigation into the matter, they will then be more than able to obtain all of the appropriate information.

I will try to remember to check back in on this thread. If you have any questions you can either post them here or PM me.

Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:58:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Charlied6311:
Just have your dad fill the form out and send it in. The more common name you have the more issues come up with the instant check, ie..information comes back either showing someone with the same name and dob was either involuntarily committed or has some type of criminal record. It may also be that some turd somewhere along the line may have used your fathers name,dob or SS# as an alias, this happens more than you would think.




Yep...sadly my own brother committed a felony crime using my name and SS#.
Prick even served his sentence using my ID. Funnier yet, he was already a convicted felon,
so why bother? As it turns out, I went to re-new my carry permit, and was denied!

State police sent me the letter of 'challenge' you gentlemen are referring to. Within a couple
weeks I received notice I was arrested and convicted on a 'domestic violence' charge
in Allentown.

I call, and relate to them that I was NEVER in Allentown, and most certainly did not
commit the crime of 'domestic violence' in Allentown or ANY city for that matter.

State Police, very doubtful of my claims of my innocence, give me the ultimatum of
coming to the station and subject myself for fingerprinting for comparison, or be denied.
I try explaining that EVERY agency from the ATF to FBI already have my prints on file
for previous class 3 purchases. Now mind you, I'm getting somewhat perturbed!

Off to be printed at the station, and treated pretty piss-poorly at that. 'Bout a week or
so later I get the almighty 'reversal' letter with a particular 'catch.' It was a letter I have
to carry with me for the rest of my natural life that 'proves' I'm 'me' and NOT somebody
else.

Totally unacceptable to me as this means my record is still 'tainted.' I call Harrisburg's
top guy out there in the 'records division' and he informs me that my record will forever
be attached to my brother's, and the letter that they provided is adequate/sufficient enough.

Long story short, I obtain an attorney. Many missed days of work and loss of income,
not to mention attorney fees. A judge orders my record expunged. Welp...as it turns out,
I just found out 6 years later they've yet to do just that. Essentially, due to their failure to
act on the judges orders, I recently failed a back ground check for a prospectful job
opportunity...I LOST A JOB!!!

So more loss of income, more attorney fees, and now I live and reside in New Mexico,
so I'll have to fly in for court appearances. Currently searching for a NEW lawyer,
and a freaken job.

Good luck to you, and your Father!


Link Posted: 3/20/2006 8:08:22 AM EST
BTT
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 9:04:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By 76Mark:
So, my dad got his official denial back from the PSP. They're reason for denial is a 1971 arrest when he was charged with possesion of drug par. & resisting arrest (which, after talking to an office, was really attempt to evade). After going to court, all charges were dropped & he paid a $37 fine. I'm guessing the township screwed up and this was kept on record or something. My dad's going up to the police station hopefully this week to see what they say.



In possession of drug paraphernalia in 1971? Who wasn't? Hell, they might as well of cited him for breathing, like everyone else was doing..........
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 9:31:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 9:37:17 AM EST by 76Mark]
I know...I don't get it. Would either of those charges prevent him from buying a gun even if they stuck?
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 10:54:09 AM EST
It sounds like it.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:52:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 1:46:46 PM EST
It will all depend on exactly what he plead guilty to. If he was convicted of a misdemeanor 2 or higher section of Title 35, he will not be allowed to own a firearm.

Do an online search for "PA crimes code section 6105", you should find some interesting reading material.

Section 6105 Persons not to Possess, Use, Manufacture, Control, Sell or Transfer Firearms. Deals specifically with your fathers problem.

I am a bit confused about you saying the charges were dropped but he paid a fine. Usually paying a fine means you either plead guilty to something or were found guilty of something. Either way your father will need to look into this further. He can either contact the Police Dept. that charged him to see if they have the answer or he can go to the County Courthouse and check his own record through the Prothonotary's Office.

His denial should have triggered an investigation, he may be contacted by the Police in your area and they will get to the bottom of it.

Link Posted: 3/20/2006 4:37:21 PM EST
your mom can buy it, or you, a father/son may purchase handguns and gift them, i believe it is father to son, but, i think it may also apply the other way
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 5:33:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:18:10 AM EST
hmm...from what ive been told by a former co-worker, who was in a similiar situation, his local FFL advised him to do just that...now, the legality, i assume was cool, but, ive never heard of "straw purchasing", nor have i seen anything on it when i researched the legality of his gun purchase a year ago....although in the same situation, i would not purchase a firearm for anyone
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:19:25 AM EST
Would there be a problem with my mom purchasing a gun if it's kept in the same house with my dad? This would be her gun and would be in their home? The gun would be there for home defense and if the need for it comes up they'd have to deal with it at that time.

He called and spoke with someone from the PSP. They want him to write them a letter describing the incident in his words and said they'd take that to the township police. At this point I doubt they'll reverse the denial.

Thanks

Mark
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 3:40:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:06:33 PM EST
Agreed, Straw Purchases are not the way to go, especially these days. Trouble is not if he goes to the range and shoots as I doubt that anybody will check him out. The trouble is if God forbid he ever had to use the gun for even a righteous shooting. No matter, they will check the gun and its legal owner. Then he is in for a worldful of S&!T.

Best to do as others have said, get this thing fixed the right way.

The only part I don’t understand is how he does not know the details of the "incident".
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 4:15:55 PM EST
I'm not talking about a straw purchase.

I just want to know if it's legal for my mom to own a firearm while living in the same home as my criminal dad. She wants a firearm for home protection and would like to purchase one if he can't. Again...this gun would be for her.

Thanks

Mark
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 8:22:46 AM EST
From Pa State Police PICS web page.

"The PICS background check program issues only approval or denial determinations. By law, no record information may be disseminated as a result of the background check. If a record is identified on an individual's background check, the call is transferred to an operator. The operator then reviews the record, and if it is not prohibiting, approves the sale. If there is a question as to whether or not the record is prohibiting, the operator may place the file in research for up to 15 days. As soon as the operator has a definite answer, the dealer is called and either given an approval number or advised that the sale is denied and the individual should be given a Pennsylvania Instant Check System Challenge Form."

Note the last sentence. He should have been given the Challenge Form.

He can also request his own criminal history from this page. It cost 10 bucks. I'm not sure what information he would need to provide. Probably the same as for the PICS check.

Good Luck.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 10:18:05 AM EST
A pardon is not his only option if he is prohibited. PA allows for a relief of disability if certain conditions are met like 10years have passed, no convictions since, and it has been determined that there is no funding appropriated for relief on the federal level. from what I understand if these are met the court "shall" relieve you of your disability and the Feds follow as respecting the states rights. But this only counts for state level offenses. Not Federal..
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 6:16:23 AM EST
76Mark,
1st comment, I had a friend who was denied because of a DUI 26 years ago. He had been purchasing firearms up until the PICS. He and his attorney completed the necessary paperwork and went before a Judge. The Judge looked at the facts (nothing on his record for 26 years) and granted the motion to expunge this from the records. He went back to the PSP and can now buy firearms again. It did take a while to get worked out but he was successful. Your Dad needs to get an attorney that is familiar with these matters.

2nd comment, Having Mom own the gun in the same household is, in my opinion, a very gray area. It is legal for her to own her own gun but Dad (at this time) couldn't even touch it without being in violation. If something were to happen and the police had to come into the house and saw the gun and asked who's it was, even if both said it belonged to Mom they would then investigate, get the FFL involved (looking at the paperwork), and probably be very suspicous, unless it was well known that mom was a hunter, target shooter, etc. It is not right but typically most people assume that if there is a gun in the house that the man owns it. It would be a case of guilty until mom proves she's innocent.

By the way, I am not a lawyer but I am an FFL. I read everything that the BATFE and PSP send me and the biggest topic currently is the Strawman purchases (because of the terrorist threat). They give you tips on how to possibly spot a straw purchase. Under these tips if a man and woman came in looking at firearms, especially handguns and the man was giving the woman tips on what to buy it would immediately raise my suspicions. Even if it were a younger man with an older women. Even if they were looking at what would be considered ladies guns. It is really a tough decision unless the FFL personally knows the people. If a straw purchase is made and the FFL is brought into the investigation he has to defend himself and prove conclusively that he did not know or even have a suspicion that it was to be a straw purchase. It may sound like I am paranoid but the penalties for an FFL knowingly completing a straw purchase would be devestating to the average hard working person.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 9:41:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
A pardon is not his only option if he is prohibited. PA allows for a relief of disability if certain conditions are met like 10years have passed, no convictions since, and it has been determined that there is no funding appropriated for relief on the federal level. from what I understand if these are met the court "shall" relieve you of your disability and the Feds follow as respecting the states rights. But this only counts for state level offenses. Not Federal..



Valkyrie,

Where could I find some info on this? I have a buddy who got in a spot of trouble 11 years ago to be exact and has a first degree misdemeanor as a result. It is killing him because his record was spotless before and has been spotless since. I have been rather careful in regards to letting him shoot with us and he has begun looking into the pardon process, but this sounds like it may be the way to go.

Where should we get started? Anyone have any idea?
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