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Posted: 7/23/2005 4:55:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2005 10:16:01 PM EDT by Gunbert]
For those hometowners that were following this: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=22&t=205606

My issue in the thread took on a life of it's own, and moving it to it's own thread seems to be the best way to get this resolved. I'm posting this here because I've tried, multiple times, to find some solution, either with citadel or the cans manufacturer, only to be rebuffed.

Here's a quick recap of what happened;

I brought a .22 suppressor to citadel to be cleaned. While being cleaned the suppressor was damaged beyond repair by their house gunsmith. Tactical Innovations, the manufacturer of the can, says they can replace it, but they have no blank tubes in stock. They will be happy to replace it, at full cost, the next time they do a run of steel cans (they haven't done a run of steel cans in over a year, and have no plans to run them in the near future). The smith at citadel says he will pay for the replacement can.


I've been waiting over a year now to have this can fixed or replaced, and all I get from the manufacturer is they have no immediate plans to do another run of cans like mine, and I'll just have to keep waiting. They also will not put my serial # on anything other than the same exact type of suppressor, for liability and ATF concerns. So here I sit, with a destroyed suppressor and absolutely no satisfaction.

Mike, you said you spoke to someone at TI who said they could help... that's great, only I always talk to the owner, and he says no go. Perhaps you've worked something out; if so I'm all for it. So long as it's a steel can with steel baffles throughout. You posted in the other thread about thinking it was an aluminum can... but don't you remember working on it? You turned the tube, endcaps and one of the baffles down on your lathe. The are most definately steel.


Let me put it another way. If tactical innovations cannot replace the can in a timely manner, I expect you to pay for it. And not just the cost of the can, but the tax stamp and all, since I am going to have to buy a different can from a different company. as I posted before;

Tactical Innovations Tac-67: $360 (drop down box with all steel baffles)
$200 tax stamp.
$50 for fingerprints, shipping and whatever else.

This comes to $610, give or take. Again, I am not hounding you about being out one of my favorite toys for the last year. All I want is it replaced. I don't care how it gets done; but since TI can't seem to do it, the onus is on you. This is YOUR problem, not mine, not TI's. If you can somehow get them to make me another can, then I will be satisfied. If you cannot (and unfortunately I see this as the most likely outcome) I will expect you to cover my expense.


Let me know.
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 6:53:15 PM EDT
tag

Link Posted: 7/23/2005 7:03:00 PM EDT
It will be interesting to see how this works out. I respect Citadel and have spent some money over there, but I should hope this all gets resolved.
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 10:05:13 PM EDT
I would like to see the outcome of this as well. I hope it comes out fair for both Gunbert and Sako1
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 10:23:42 PM EDT
Assuming that all aspects of Gunberts story are the truth ( I have no reason to doubt that it is), then I would have to chime in that it would absolutely be the responsibility of the business that damaged the item to make good on repair or replacement in a timely manner. After a year, that would seem to have crossed the line from timely and would warrant not only replacement but above average effort to help make it right. If it means absorbing the cost of the tax stamp and fingerprints so be it. It should not be the customer's responsibility to ask, a reputable business should have offered to make it right.
Good luck to everyone, reputations are at stake.

Link Posted: 7/23/2005 10:34:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 12:31:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:
Citadel already knows how much it will take to make this right. They could have sent Ryan an email or an IM the past few days and said where should the check be mailed. They seem to like making Ryan beg for money owed to him.



Link Posted: 7/24/2005 2:00:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:
Citadel already knows how much it will take to make this right. They could have sent Ryan an email or an IM the past few days and said where should the check be mailed. They seem to like making Ryan beg for money owed to him.



Is it Citadel or Mike who is supposed to make this right? Whose shoulders do the blame lay on?
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 5:38:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 8:51:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ColSanders:

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:
Citadel already knows how much it will take to make this right. They could have sent Ryan an email or an IM the past few days and said where should the check be mailed. They seem to like making Ryan beg for money owed to him.


Is it Citadel or Mike who is supposed to make this right? Whose shoulders do the blame lay on?




That is a very good question. I was under the impression that Mike was just renting space from Citadel, and I even asked John this point blank; I was finally getting tired of waiting around for my suppressor to get fixed and wanted to tell Mike to start thinking of alernatives, but I didn't want do drag Citadel into it if I could help it. I had no beef with them. So John confirms that Mike is his own entity, and not part of Citadel... but then it got weird. I went over and told Mike I was done waiting, and John comes over and interjects himself into the conversation. He basically took it over, and kept saying things like 'we' and 'us', as if they were all part of the issue together. He even made the comment -something to the effect of- "we can't just pay for everything we mess up..."


So, though I tried to differentiate and keep Citadel out of this, they seem to want to play a role. So be it. That is the reason it's taken me so long to post this kind of thing here; I really liked Citadel, anyone who read my review of their shop knows that, and I didn't like the thought of dragging their name through the mud. The toughest part of this is that I'll never be able to shop there again, and that sucks.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 9:43:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2005 9:44:13 AM EDT by olyarms]

Originally Posted By Gunbert:

Originally Posted By ColSanders:

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:
Citadel already knows how much it will take to make this right. They could have sent Ryan an email or an IM the past few days and said where should the check be mailed. They seem to like making Ryan beg for money owed to him.


Is it Citadel or Mike who is supposed to make this right? Whose shoulders do the blame lay on?




That is a very good question. I was under the impression that Mike was just renting space from Citadel, and I even asked John this point blank; I was finally getting tired of waiting around for my suppressor to get fixed and wanted to tell Mike to start thinking of alernatives, but I didn't want do drag Citadel into it if I could help it. I had no beef with them. So John confirms that Mike is his own entity, and not part of Citadel... but then it got weird. I went over and told Mike I was done waiting, and John comes over and interjects himself into the conversation. He basically took it over, and kept saying things like 'we' and 'us', as if they were all part of the issue together. He even made the comment -something to the effect of- "we can't just pay for everything we mess up..."


So, though I tried to differentiate and keep Citadel out of this, they seem to want to play a role. So be it. That is the reason it's taken me so long to post this kind of thing here; I really liked Citadel, anyone who read my review of their shop knows that, and I didn't like the thought of dragging their name through the mud. The toughest part of this is that I'll never be able to shop there again, and that sucks.


we can't just pay for everything we mess up...
That right there is one of the funniest things I have read in a long time.

I havent used this guy in almost 7 months.


ETA: This sounds like a shitty mess gunbert, hope it works out. I mean even if they pay for everything you have to wait again for your paper work to clear.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 10:46:00 AM EDT
I've got no dog in this fight, but I have seen the suppressor in question. The can is in fact a REAL mess with the tube, (which is the NFA registered portion), needing replacement. it's totally unusable for it's intended purpose in it's present condition and appears to be un-repairable. We all understand that shit happens, and after so much time has passed, a satisfactory resolution is long over due. I will say that my patience would have run out a long time ago.

It appears that Gunbert has personally contacted Mr. Craig Wheatly, the sole owner of Tactical Innovations, on several occasions. Mr. Wheatly's response has been that they have not manufactured the can in over a year and have no plans to do so in the foreseeable future. That sounds to me like the can should be replaced with a like make and model. If Mike has "connections" at T.I. that Gunbert doesn't, then he needs to become more proactive in having the registered tube HE DAMAGED replaced... PRONTO! After the damaged can is replaced at Mike's ex pence, the damaged one should be transferred to him AFTER paying the $200.00 transfer tax. Bottom line is he bought himself a suppressor by virtue of his mistake.

Another sad component here is the lack of support from Tactical Innovations. It's a shame that Craig Wheatly doesn't offer better customer service or the entire outcome of this story would probably be vastly different. I really thought making another tube and using the existing serial number would have been a cake walk for the manufacturer. Apparently not, and I'll remember that when I purchase products in the future. Too many reputable manufacturers exist that will perform this service for a nominal fee to consider buying from a company that isn't supporting a relatively new product. I really thought Tactical Inovations was better than this. I purchased a number of products from them when I owned my SWD M11/9 and was always treated well.

I'm guessing that most of you on the hometown board aren't NFA owners so you can't begin to feel the pain of paying for something and then waiting for many months before you can take physical possession of it. My last NFA transfer took OVER a year to make it to my safe after paying for it. Not everyone has the time, money, or inclination required to play this game. This mistake on Mike's part has cost Gunbert the use of a previously perfectly functioning sound suppressor and he's not asking for compensation for that loss. Like Gunbert, I've just recently got my M16/.22 conversion kit running and he wants the use of the full auto rated can he paid for well over a year ago. I don't blame him one bit.

Hopefully this ugly matter can be resolved to both parties satisfaction before legal recourse is sought.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 10:47:46 AM EDT
That does suck. It's very disturbing.

It at least makes me hesitant to use their 'smith for anything.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 10:56:32 AM EDT
This is the third disaster story i have heard come out of Citadel and Mikes workmanship. Two thread jobs and Ryans suppressor. I used to brag Citadel up until I got a brush off from John when I had some questions about a rifle that looked strangely assembled
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 12:50:14 PM EDT
Man this will hurt Citadel's a lot more than $600+ I am willing to bet most here spend at the min $6000 a year on gun shit. But when you have so many senior members popping up about this it looks like shit.

Dam it would have been so much easier to just said "shit i fucked up, let me pay for it in full"
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 12:59:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 1:08:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2005 1:08:51 PM EDT by olyarms]

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Man this will hurt Citadel's a lot more than $600+ I am willing to bet most here spend at the min $6000 a year on gun shit. But when you have so many senior members popping up about this it looks like shit.

Dam it would have been so much easier to just said "shit i fucked up, let me pay for it in full"




Well said and very true.


As long as you don't look at the my grammar

I had already spent over $2500 this year at citadels as well, however I am going to use bills in the future until new info arises. Hes cheaper as well and you don't hear about him screwing people.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 1:18:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 2:11:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2005 2:12:14 PM EDT by bthp223]
I have spent some serious coin at citadel,I think as a collective citadel should have solved this problem along time ago.
My hats of to you Gunbert for being so patient!
I would say that alot ways on the outcome,i'm not spending another dime until we see what happens here.

Link Posted: 7/24/2005 4:56:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Man this will hurt Citadel's a lot more than $600+ I am willing to bet most here spend at the min $6000 a year on gun shit. But when you have so many senior members popping up about this it looks like shit.

Dam it would have been so much easier to just said "shit i fucked up, let me pay for it in full"




Well said and very true.



+1
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 5:32:38 PM EDT
Like i have mentioned before, i like John and Amber a LOT. I have purchased numerous cases of ammo from them, along with a few odds and ends. I dont spend as much at Citadel as some people do...However, i do NOT want to have to write them off because of the non-resoution of a silly issue such as this.

Gunbert isnt a rich guy...he works hard, and saves even harder to get the things that he wants. It would be a shame for him to end up getting the short end of this stick.

My faith in Citadel, John, and Amber leads me to believe, that this matter will be resolved...and resolved with NO HARD FEELINGS.

Allow me to stress that not only should Gunbert have this issue resolved to his satisfaction, but he should ALSO be welcome into Citadel in the future, the same as any one else....because as i see it, Gunbert has done NOTHING wrong, and in fact, shown GREAT restraint...much more restraint than any of us would, if faced with the same situation.

Link Posted: 7/24/2005 5:34:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ishoot2live:

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Man this will hurt Citadel's a lot more than $600+ I am willing to bet most here spend at the min $6000 a year on gun shit. But when you have so many senior members popping up about this it looks like shit.

Dam it would have been so much easier to just said "shit i fucked up, let me pay for it in full"




Well said and very true.



+1



+ 1000

I bet they lose more than that this month alone.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 7:15:16 PM EDT
As everyone else has said, I too support Citadel, but what I dont understand is why some would say that they wont spend any money there until the issue is resolved? I mean, only one guys suppressor was screwed up. That sucks for Gunbert, and I feel bad for him to. The matter does need to be resolved ASAP. Im also flabbergasted that its been this long and no one has paid Gunbert back. But to say that you wont support a business because of one unfortunate incident is something I just dont get. Do remember shitty things happen everywhere but when someones livelihood comes into it thats just not right.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 7:44:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 7:55:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DefensorFortis:
As everyone else has said, I too support Citadel, but what I dont understand is why some would say that they wont spend any money there until the issue is resolved? I mean, only one guys suppressor was screwed up. That sucks for Gunbert, and I feel bad for him to. The matter does need to be resolved ASAP. Im also flabbergasted that its been this long and no one has paid Gunbert back. But to say that you wont support a business because of one unfortunate incident is something I just dont get. Do remember shitty things happen everywhere but when someones livelihood comes into it thats just not right.



Well, I may spend money there, but I don't think I would employ their smith or encourage anyone else to.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 8:04:57 PM EDT
I have a recently purchased lathe and have done some personal threading and such on it. The thought has crossed my mind several times to say here in the hometown boards "sure come over and we can do this or that for your rifle." Every time that thought enters it is quickly ushered out of my mind with the realization that if I screw my own stuff up I can deal with that but, I do not want the responsibility if I screw up or even mar someone elses stuff. This is from someone who did 24 extractions on Friday so I am no stranger to being responsible with other peoples mouths and teeth ( far less replaceable that machined steel parts) . So my point is when you are in a profession where you have the responsibility for other peoples property it is a responsibility not to be taken lightly and if you make a mistake you are obligated to go the extra mile to make it right.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 8:25:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:

It's been a year. Lots of people know Ryan and know that he is a respected long time member here as well as a stand up guy, if they screw him we are supposed to still give money to that company? Citadel got a ton of FREE advertising from this board, it's time to make things right.



I agree WP.

As a business owner in the firearms community, and a constituent of this board, I must say that I have gotten to know Gunbert on both the business and personal levels.

When I sponsored a CCW course last year, Ryan (Gunbert) paid the tuition and never once bitched about the outlay. To this day I still deal with him for other business matters and all I can say is that Ryan is a very praiseworthy man.

Personally I wouldn't find fault with John and Amber, but, if I (personally) had a gentleman working for me as my gunsmith, and he was generating as much negative feedback that has been posted on this Board, I would certainly rethink my staff.

One can only ascertain that the negative feedback that we have seen posted here could only be a slice of the negative experiences that the public at large has experienced, and if they don’t have a forum (like we do) of which to air the issues, who knows how deep (in reality) this really goes.

A year (imho) is an exceedingly long time to resolve an issue of this depth and expense.

Be Safe.

Joe
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 7:09:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2005 7:10:02 AM EDT by BigBang]
Bottom line is that this has taken way to long to resolve. Ryan has been more than patient , I would call them and tell them that I'll be by on Friday to pick up a check so that I can start the wait of getting the can replaced.

If the check is not ready I would set a date in small claims court.

Link Posted: 7/25/2005 7:26:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BigBang:
Bottom line is that this has taken way to long to resolve. Ryan has been more than patient , I would call them and tell them that I'll be by on Friday to pick up a check so that I can start the wait of getting the can replaced.

If the check is not ready I would set a date in small claims court.





Several people have given me that advice. I guess I'm keeping it in reserve as my 'nuclear option'. I'd really prefer Sako1 to just own up and pay for the thing, rather than getting the courts involved.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 9:35:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunbert:

Originally Posted By BigBang:
Bottom line is that this has taken way to long to resolve. Ryan has been more than patient , I would call them and tell them that I'll be by on Friday to pick up a check so that I can start the wait of getting the can replaced.

If the check is not ready I would set a date in small claims court.





Several people have given me that advice. I guess I'm keeping it in reserve as my 'nuclear option'. I'd really prefer Sako1 to just own up and pay for the thing, rather than getting the courts involved.



Well, that's the option we'd all like to see. If you have to take him to small claims court, most of us will be so pissed off with them, we'd never go back. If you just got the check from them, they'd be redeemed in our eyes. At least, somewhat.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 10:06:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunbert:

Originally Posted By BigBang:
Bottom line is that this has taken way to long to resolve. Ryan has been more than patient , I would call them and tell them that I'll be by on Friday to pick up a check so that I can start the wait of getting the can replaced.

If the check is not ready I would set a date in small claims court.





Several people have given me that advice. I guess I'm keeping it in reserve as my 'nuclear option'. I'd really prefer Sako1 to just own up and pay for the thing, rather than getting the courts involved.



I agree the courts are to be avoided if possible, however, you have been patiently waiting for a year. IMO you need to pin them down to a date, paying you what you have into it seems to be the only option available. The time has come for them to make it right.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 2:50:51 PM EDT


Sour thread now.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 5:02:17 PM EDT
Has anybody noticed there has been no reply from Sako1.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 5:19:53 PM EDT
Since nobody else is gonna ask, I want to see the pics of this quality workmanship.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 5:46:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2005 5:46:46 PM EDT by Wolfpack]
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 7:13:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LVDragon:
Has anybody noticed there has been no reply from Sako1.



Sako1 responded several times in the original thread: Las Vegas/Henderson Gunsmith Recommendations

From what I've read in the past on this Board, Sako1 is Citadel the shop, and Mike the gunsmith just uses the account to respond.

Be Safe.

Joe
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 8:43:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LVDragon:
Has anybody noticed there has been no reply from Sako1.



The question is, has he even seen the thread?
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 8:46:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColSanders:

Originally Posted By LVDragon:
Has anybody noticed there has been no reply from Sako1.



The question is, has he even seen the thread?



I posted a link to this thread in that one. There is no way, aside from him just not being online, that he could've missed it.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 9:14:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColSanders:

Originally Posted By LVDragon:
Has anybody noticed there has been no reply from Sako1.



The question is, has he even seen the thread?



CS,

If I had been the center of this specific controversy I would have certainly seen the thread. This particular thread has been a "red folder" for several days now.

On the other hand I agree with GB:

"I posted a link to this thread in that one. There is no way, aside from him just not being online, that he could've missed it."


Be Safe.

Joe
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 9:38:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 9:46:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:
Folks, look how fast Citadel came in when their name was brought up in this thread

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=22&t=205606

Ryan Posted at :: 7/20/2005 10:05:29 AM PDT

Sako1 posted a response at :: 7/20/2005 11:24:30 AM PDT

It took them exactly 1 hour and 19 minutes to post after Ryan, so someone called them to tell them about it. They know about this thread for sure. So now, why would anyone spend money at Citadel after we see how they treat Ryan? The one guy who sent more business to them than anyone else.



Yep WP,

Your above post says it all.

Be Safe.

Joe
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 11:36:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2005 11:36:25 PM EDT by ColSanders]

Originally Posted By ishoot2live:

Originally Posted By ColSanders:

Originally Posted By LVDragon:
Has anybody noticed there has been no reply from Sako1.



The question is, has he even seen the thread?



CS,

If I had been the center of this specific controversy I would have certainly seen the thread. This particular thread has been a "red folder" for several days now.

On the other hand I agree with GB:

"I posted a link to this thread in that one. There is no way, aside from him just not being online, that he could've missed it."


Be Safe.

Joe



That's what I'm saying. Hell, I go days, weeks even at times when I'm not online. Plus, with the limited amount of posts he has made, I doubt he spends as much time on here as me.

I could be wrong.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 11:43:13 PM EDT
OK, I guess, I hadn't known about the other thread. Now that I look at it with the other thread, it does seem "suspicious".
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 12:54:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ColSanders:
OK, I guess, I hadn't known about the other thread. Now that I look at it with the other thread, it does seem "suspicious".



Precisely.
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 6:32:14 AM EDT
This is a quote from Sako1 in the other thread "I was and am willing to pay for the suppressor at the agreed upon price." and If you need to have the money in your pocket, you could have picked it up at anytime. I am only human and we all mess up from time to time and have always been willing to make it right. This has been a nightmare for us both and needs to be put to rest. . If he is true to his word all it should take is a call to him to let him know when you'll swing by to pick up the check. Make a call and see if you get more run around or you if get it resolved.
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 7:01:33 AM EDT
i see people are starting to see the lack of customer service I have been experiencing all along.
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 10:43:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ishoot2live:

Originally Posted By ColSanders:
OK, I guess, I hadn't known about the other thread. Now that I look at it with the other thread, it does seem "suspicious".



Precisely.



Yeah, I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but it's really strange when they don't reply whatsoever all of a sudden.
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 2:02:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 4:46:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:

Originally Posted By ColSanders:

Yeah, I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but it's really strange when they don't reply whatsoever all of a sudden.



I don't think they will, but we will see. I have already been getting IM's from folks that are saying they are done going there.



I won't be going back. Not now.
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 6:05:02 PM EDT
I guess I'll have to call them tomorrow. We'll see what they have to say; hopefully they will want to work it out.


I'll post whatever happens here.
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 6:48:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/26/2005 6:49:54 PM EDT by VegasDealer]
Come see me ASAP and bring your damaged can, I will help you get a new better can quickly.
But you must kill that frickin dancing mouse.......

Martin
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