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Posted: 6/17/2016 12:36:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2016 12:39:42 PM EDT by Big-Boy]
This shop is intentionally making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to purchase firearms. I went in today to buy a lower. I had an updated address form from the DMV that specifically stated my new address which is issued by the state and recognized by the ATF along with my picture ID.

They would not sell me the lower stating it wasn't good enough . This is the document the STATE special issues to denote change of address.... I also offered water and gas bills issued by my Municipality, not a private company, that had my updated address. These are less official than the DMV form, but still acceptable by the ATF. They still refused.

That satisfies ALL requirements of the law. Instead of being a supporter or the gun community, this shop specifically looks for ways to support the nanny culture this country has created around guns rather than what actual law states. The acceptance of a DMV updated address card along with picture ID is explicitly notated as acceptable directly on the ATF's website. And even though less is acceptable, per the ATF (such as a fishing license) many shops will specifically require the DMV address form.

I will not shop at a place that tries to find barriers to put in front of law abiding citizens and loops to jump through to attain a firearm. The government already does enough without their added help.
Link Posted: 6/17/2016 12:55:59 PM EDT
eh, they are too damned proud of their stuff for me anyway.
Link Posted: 6/17/2016 2:04:17 PM EDT
Are you talking about the card the DMV puts on the back of the license? If so the ATF in person specifically say that is NOT acceptable. I have been told that by inspectors on more than one occasion. Just go get your license changed.
Link Posted: 6/17/2016 2:21:03 PM EDT
Take your business to another shop.
Link Posted: 6/17/2016 4:59:32 PM EDT
I stopped going there after they moved. Go down the road to ashland and get it from patriot supply.
Link Posted: 6/17/2016 7:04:36 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By NOMAAM:
Just go get your license changed.
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That's what I would do. Get your new license, then go back. I have less trouble with that, than private sales where they start asking for a receipt, copy of drivers license, etc. Nope, I don't go around the government to make up my own restrictions.
Link Posted: 6/17/2016 10:18:46 PM EDT
My dealer is happy with my DL (for the picture) plus my CCW (for the correct address). It's worth noting that something as simple as a state fishing license with the correct address meets state requirements for proof of address.
Link Posted: 6/18/2016 11:14:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2016 12:10:21 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By zercool:
My dealer is happy with my DL (for the picture) plus my CCW (for the correct address). It's worth noting that something as simple as a state fishing license with the correct address meets state requirements for proof of address.
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We accept that as well. I am curious how law enforcement, especially out of state, would handle having different addresses on the two though. Since there is no picture now on the CCW I'd be worried they'd give me trouble.
Link Posted: 6/18/2016 1:55:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By NOMAAM:



We accept that as well. I am curious how law enforcement, especially out of state, would handle having different addresses on the two though. Since there is no picture now on the CCW I'd be worried they'd give me trouble.
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Originally Posted By NOMAAM:
Originally Posted By zercool:
My dealer is happy with my DL (for the picture) plus my CCW (for the correct address). It's worth noting that something as simple as a state fishing license with the correct address meets state requirements for proof of address.



We accept that as well. I am curious how law enforcement, especially out of state, would handle having different addresses on the two though. Since there is no picture now on the CCW I'd be worried they'd give me trouble.

There should be no trouble at all....in state...out of state....who the hell knows. If you are going out of state...have your DL updated with the current address and pay the difference if you're that worried about it.
Link Posted: 6/18/2016 2:12:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2016 2:33:30 PM EDT by PaulOCG]
We only take a current state issued photo ID with the individual's current address. Yes the state gave you the ID, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's good enough in the eyes of the Federal Government and that's the government body you're dealing with. If the state of Missouri was approving or denying you based on your ID then of course you would have a valid point, but this is not so. It's comparable to giving a state trooper your library card when they ask you for identification. Maybe they will take it, but maybe they won't if they feel it's not up to their standards for proper identification.

We spoke to the ATF agents from the KC branch during an audit and posed this question since occasionally people have that sticker on the back of their license and were told that isn't acceptable. You might not think it's a big deal, but for whatever reason should the ATF get the itch to pin you to the wall it's best to not give them any grounds to do so. Granted, our inspections over the years have typically been pretty pleasant since we do everything by the book and our affairs are in order. In my opinion that dealer did the right thing and if another dealer wants to do it then so be it. Hopefully that doesn't come up in an audit.

Do I agree with all of the regulations and rules? No, but keep in mind the dealer's license is a federal license so the federal government is the one with the power to pull the plug and end a dealer's livelihood over night. It's not the most pleasant thing to have hanging over your head every moment you are trying to feed your own family and those you employ. So the best thing a dealer can do is explain the situation and try to work within the limits of laws and ethics as best as we know how. It's not common we have this happen, but when it does our customers have been understanding and we appreciate it.
Link Posted: 6/18/2016 3:03:54 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ziegenbock:

There should be no trouble at all....in state...out of state....who the hell knows. If you are going out of state...have your DL updated with the current address and pay the difference if you're that worried about it.
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Originally Posted By ziegenbock:
Originally Posted By NOMAAM:
Originally Posted By zercool:
My dealer is happy with my DL (for the picture) plus my CCW (for the correct address). It's worth noting that something as simple as a state fishing license with the correct address meets state requirements for proof of address.



We accept that as well. I am curious how law enforcement, especially out of state, would handle having different addresses on the two though. Since there is no picture now on the CCW I'd be worried they'd give me trouble.

There should be no trouble at all....in state...out of state....who the hell knows. If you are going out of state...have your DL updated with the current address and pay the difference if you're that worried about it.



Exactly. I don't know why people in Missouri are so lax about changing their DL address. I'd wager almost 1/3 of our customers have the incorrect address on their DL.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 9:55:03 AM EDT
I had the sticker for 3 years and never had any problems except one time when academy had a grand opening and their trainer was not from missouri . Any interaction I have had with law enforcement has been trouble free except for the speeding part. the state says its a legal document and if thats not good enough for a vendor Im sure somebody else will take my money .
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 11:34:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2016 11:50:50 AM EDT by Bladeswitcher]
The address change STICKERS are specifically not acceptable. ATF inspectors make a point of telling FFL's not to accept the stickers. But that's not what the OP was talking about (assuming I read his post correctly). He said he had a change of address FORM. I've only recently started seeing these so I assume it's a new thing. I've accepted these as they clearly seem to be a government issued document*.

* Someone might ask what's the difference between a sticker and a form. They both come from DOR. I don't know but I was told by an ATF inspector something to the effect of: "The stickers are user generated. They have them on the counter and anybody can pick them up." Whether that's true or not is not important. What's important is that the ATF says the stickers are a no-go. They have not said that about a printed form so I'm assuming the form is OK . . . until they tell me otherwise.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 11:35:41 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By NOMAAM:
I don't know why people in Missouri are so lax about changing their DL address. I'd wager almost 1/3 of our customers have the incorrect address on their DL.
View Quote



Try dealing with pawn customers . . .
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 11:39:46 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By PaulOCG:
We only take a current state issued photo ID with the individual's current address. . . .
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Are you suggesting you don't accept a license with the wrong address if it's backed up with another government issued document? No vehicle titles, voter ID cards, fishing licenses, etc.? So, you never fill out the alternative documentation line on the 4473? Even though the instructions clearly spell out that you can use a combination of documents?

Or am I reading too much into your statement?
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 11:43:20 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By eric10mm:
I use the address listed on my DL when filling out a 4473. Easy peasy.
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Originally Posted By eric10mm:
I use the address listed on my DL when filling out a 4473. Easy peasy.


I certify that my answers to Section A are true, correct, and complete. I have read and understand the Notices, Instructions,
and Definitions on ATF Form 4473 . . .
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 1:13:28 PM EDT
I'm pretty sure the OP is talking about the paper id sheet that is issued by the dmv
To use until your plastic and comes in the mail. Not a sticker
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:25:30 PM EDT
I don't know if it's still the practice, but in IL, the cops would take your drivers license as bond when you got a ticket. You would have to wait a few weeks for it to make it to the county court house, then you would have to post bond or pay the ticket in order to get the card back. In the interim, you were supposed to be able to use the speeding ticket as your ID......b/c the state police said you could. Yeah right! Try renting a car, boarding an airline, buying beer, cashing a check, etc with a speeding ticket.

I stand with the FFL on this one. It's their livelihood, and federal pounding in the ass prison is not worth the risk.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 5:35:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By delorean:

I stand with the FFL on this one. It's their livelihood, and federal pounding in the ass prison is not worth the risk.
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I doubt any FFL has ever gone to prison for taking the wrong supporting documents.
Link Posted: 6/20/2016 1:49:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By NOMAAM:
Are you talking about the card the DMV puts on the back of the license? If so the ATF in person specifically say that is NOT acceptable. I have been told that by inspectors on more than one occasion. Just go get your license changed.
View Quote


I've heard exactly this from several sources. Reason? DMV around here isn't a state agency. OTOH, fishing licenses from Wal Mart are GTG.
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 10:03:09 AM EDT
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