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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/3/2005 8:01:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 8:08:27 AM EDT by prebans]
I'm considering putting in an application to Indiana-Bloomington Law School next year. (My father requires me to tell you that I'm not going there to become a lawyer; I'm going to do something respectable like playing piano in a whorehouse.)

Aside from driving through Indiana (which left positive impressions each time), I don't know too much about the state.

Originally from WI, now live in AZ.

Any wonky gun laws I need to know about including NFA? (I am also a current C3 SOT.) Any trouble keeping any of my registered stuff?

Thanks!

Mike
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:00:15 AM EDT
Having grown up in WI and lived in IN for the past 8 years (12 if you count college) Indiana seems to be very much like Wisconsin and I feel very much at home here.

What part of WI? I think Bloomington is the center of liberalism in this state, perhaps approaching Madison, but that's what you get with a large school like that. As long as you get away from campus and keep out of the NW part that's been contaminated by Chicago I think you'll like it.

No wacky gun laws that I know of. Carry permits are shall-issue. NFA is allowed (suppressors and full-auto for sure, SBR I'm prett sure of, not so sure of SBS). Might not be as good as AZ, but better than WI that doesn't allow CCW. There are a few places with local ordinances, like Gary, but I believe as long as you stay off-campus you're OK in Bloomington.

The area just south of Bloomington is very pretty and has plenty of hiking/bicycling trails. Basically if you stay south of Indy you have nice rolling hills and woods and north of Indy is flatter and more open.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:20:58 AM EDT
Can't Not supposed to carry on county property in Monroe county. AFAIK it's grandfathered from before ccw. And yeah, the University won't let you carry either.

Missouri native here. I think Indiana's a pretty good place to live. In this area, we're short on public ranges. Sycamore Valley Gun Club wants a ridiculous yearly fee to join.

Crime is low, meth seems to be growing but I hear about more problems southwest of the base where there's lots of ammonium nitrate to steal (lots of farms).

Bloomington is not a bad town to live in, but there are plenty of "aging liberal hippie douches" along with some young ones. You're an hour from Indy, 1.5-2 hours from...Louisville? I don't get down there much. I think 4-5 hours to Chicago.

We have a large deer and turkey population but IMO the fishing opportunities are limited here. The White River is not clean enough to eat fish out of.

I can't inform much on the full-auto stuff, but if you have other questions I'll try to answer.

J
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:22:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mike_L:
Having grown up in WI and lived in IN for the past 8 years (12 if you count college) Indiana seems to be very much like Wisconsin and I feel very much at home here.

What part of WI? I think Bloomington is the center of liberalism in this state, perhaps approaching Madison, but that's what you get with a large school like that. As long as you get away from campus and keep out of the NW part that's been contaminated by Chicago I think you'll like it.

No wacky gun laws that I know of. Carry permits are shall-issue. NFA is allowed (suppressors and full-auto for sure, SBR I'm prett sure of, not so sure of SBS). Might not be as good as AZ, but better than WI that doesn't allow CCW. There are a few places with local ordinances, like Gary, but I believe as long as you stay off-campus you're OK in Bloomington.

The area just south of Bloomington is very pretty and has plenty of hiking/bicycling trails. Basically if you stay south of Indy you have nice rolling hills and woods and north of Indy is flatter and more open.



I'm originally from Milwaukee, got my BBA in Whitewater, and have a good number of friends in Madison.

Hrm. If Bloomington is the liberal center, perhaps a rental of space for a safe in the next county over..?

The only odd ducks I heard of were old grandfathered local antigun ordinances and something about short barreled shotguns. There seems to be a lot of disagreement and a lack of knowledge on the NFA SBS (and possibly shotgun-based AOW) issues in Indiana.

Overall, most of the state is beautiful. I'm not sure if it's high fines, money put toward streetsweeping, etc., but the highways are kept VERY clean. The only area of the state I've ever wondered about is Gary.

Mike
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:26:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JimTh:
Can't Not supposed to carry on county property in Monroe county. AFAIK it's grandfathered from before ccw. And yeah, the University won't let you carry either.

Missouri native here. I think Indiana's a pretty good place to live. In this area, we're short on public ranges. Sycamore Valley Gun Club wants a ridiculous yearly fee to join.

Crime is low, meth seems to be growing but I hear about more problems southwest of the base where there's lots of ammonium nitrate to steal (lots of farms).

Bloomington is not a bad town to live in, but there are plenty of "aging liberal hippie douches" along with some young ones. You're an hour from Indy, 1.5-2 hours from...Louisville? I don't get down there much. I think 4-5 hours to Chicago.

We have a large deer and turkey population but IMO the fishing opportunities are limited here. The White River is not clean enough to eat fish out of.

I can't inform much on the full-auto stuff, but if you have other questions I'll try to answer.

J



Okay, so there are issues with "patchwork quilt" gun laws. So long as it's not like VA used to be (each and every one of their 100+ counties was different), I'm happy. Some liberals are to be expected everywhere-- I even hear our neighbors to the north (Utah) complaining about liberals.

Ranges..? You mean I can't just wander into unincorporated areas and shoot? That's one thing I'll miss about AZ if I do leave. Need a 1k yard range? Go to open desert and start shooting! How are the indoor ranges?

How are the state taxes?

Mike
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:55:17 AM EDT

Okay, so there are issues with "patchwork quilt" gun laws. So long as it's not like VA used to be (each and every one of their 100+ counties was different), I'm happy.

I think it's more like random patches of gun laws. Aside from the Chicago-tainted areas I think it's more of the type of public land rather than location that's limited. No restrictions on bars, and "no guns" signs on private property have no legal authority--no law broken if you carry unless you refuse to leave if they ask. Then it's tresspassing.


Ranges..? You mean I can't just wander into unincorporated areas and shoot? That's one thing I'll miss about AZ if I do leave. Need a 1k yard range? Go to open desert and start shooting! How are the indoor ranges?

You can, but you won't find many places with 1000yds of open ground.

Not much to speak of for indoor ranges. Probably aren't any in the Bloomington area. I only know of a few in Indy. One is bad (Don's Guns) and the other is OK but not great from what I've heard (Pop Guns).


How are the state taxes?

Not horrible, but there are county income taxes in most counties. Sales tax is 6% except on "entertainment" (like restaurants) in the Indy metro area where it's 8% now. Tax on vehicles is included in the lic. plates so you'll have sticker shock on your registration if you're used to WI's plate-only registration. Property taxes I'm sure vary by county. Owen County (west of Bloomington, possibly including some suburbs) is pretty poor and probably low taxes.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 10:09:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mike_L:
I think it's more like random patches of gun laws. Aside from the Chicago-tainted areas I think it's more of the type of public land rather than location that's limited. No restrictions on bars, and "no guns" signs on private property have no legal authority--no law broken if you carry unless you refuse to leave if they ask. Then it's tresspassing.

You can, but you won't find many places with 1000yds of open ground.

Not much to speak of for indoor ranges. Probably aren't any in the Bloomington area. I only know of a few in Indy. One is bad (Don's Guns) and the other is OK but not great from what I've heard (Pop Guns).

Not horrible, but there are county income taxes in most counties. Sales tax is 6% except on "entertainment" (like restaurants) in the Indy metro area where it's 8% now. Tax on vehicles is included in the lic. plates so you'll have sticker shock on your registration if you're used to WI's plate-only registration. Property taxes I'm sure vary by county. Owen County (west of Bloomington, possibly including some suburbs) is pretty poor and probably low taxes.



Okay, so the far NW section of the state around Chicago is or can be messy. I'll avoid that area, then. Other than the few odd grandfather clauses, your ccw sounds just as good or better than our ccw. Fair enough on the range size as well. Looks like it'll be a case of seeking outdoor ranges and putting up with cold during the winter. It's not like I haven't done that before..!

Sales tax is 6.6% here in Pinal County, AZ. I'm in an unincorporated area, but in town it goes up to 8.8%. We also have similar licensing laws, so I'm used to paying $150+ per year to keep the vehicle licensed. ...and yes, I miss WI's nice $35 for a car plates!

Owen County? I will look into them. Perhaps tey'd also welcome a FFL out of a house (as they do down here).

Anyone know how life is in Bloomington in general?

Mike
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 11:37:12 AM EDT

Fair enough on the range size as well. Looks like it'll be a case of seeking outdoor ranges and putting up with cold during the winter. It's not like I haven't done that before..!

It doesn't get cold down here in the winter. Well, at least not compared to WI, but I'm from the NW side of the state where we didn't have the lake to moderate temps. You probably didn't hit 30 below before windchill in Milwaukee like we did every winter. Too bad IN doesn't know how to plow snow. Fortunately it usually melts in a few days so the roads don't suck all the time. (And they're getting better than they were when I moved here.)


Owen County? I will look into them. Perhaps tey'd also welcome a FFL out of a house (as they do down here).

I know of at least one in a guy's garage in Owen, and one in a guy's basement in Clay (next one west) so I don't think you'll have any trouble.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 12:06:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mike_L:

Fair enough on the range size as well. Looks like it'll be a case of seeking outdoor ranges and putting up with cold during the winter. It's not like I haven't done that before..!

It doesn't get cold down here in the winter. Well, at least not compared to WI, but I'm from the NW side of the state where we didn't have the lake to moderate temps. You probably didn't hit 30 below before windchill in Milwaukee like we did every winter. Too bad IN doesn't know how to plow snow. Fortunately it usually melts in a few days so the roads don't suck all the time. (And they're getting better than they were when I moved here.)


Owen County? I will look into them. Perhaps tey'd also welcome a FFL out of a house (as they do down here).

I know of at least one in a guy's garage in Owen, and one in a guy's basement in Clay (next one west) so I don't think you'll have any trouble.



With any luck, I'll be able to find a place relatively close to the county line. Either that or I'll rent a small bit of commercial space somewhere and live in Bloomington near the campus.

...30 below? Should I expect that throughout the state?

Getting used to 70 and sunny from late October to early March,

Mike

Mike
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 12:30:24 PM EDT
I can name two FFL's working out of their houses.

Lowest temp I've seen, living ~15 minutes south of Bloomington, was 10 below I think.

Bloomington isn't bad to live in. AFAIK, there would be no need for a safe somewhere else. There's a lot of property outside of town also. The area between Bloomington and Bedford is good to live in. Just get in Lawrence county. I think you can find county tax rates on www.in.gov. Look for tax info. They have a table of county tax rates somewhere.

State CCW includes verbage that blocks localities from preempting it. Monroe Co. had an ordinance that prevented ccw on county property before the ccw law was passed. That's how I understand it at least. I've never heard of it being enforced on anyone, but I wouldn't flaunt it either. Technically Indiana law allows you to carry a handgun. Nothing specifically requires concealed. It's generally thought to be a good idea though. Some do open carry, not many. I saw one guy at WalMart with some sort of hogleg under a leather vest. Just the tip of the holster was showing.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 12:39:20 PM EDT

With any luck, I'll be able to find a place relatively close to the county line. Either that or I'll rent a small bit of commercial space somewhere and live in Bloomington near the campus.

If I were going to IU, I'd want to live close to campus for convienence. I have not heard of any local gun laws for Bloomington so I don't see why an off-campus house very close to campus would be any different for the FFL than a house anywhere else. Probably depends more on zoning or whatever they require for you to run a business out of the house.


...30 below? Should I expect that throughout the state?

Not in Indiana. Rarely gets below zero here, though sometimes the windchills will get to -15 or so. Expect 10s & 20s above on a regular basis in the winter. I think you'll find Indiana to be very similar to Milwaukee or maybe a little warmer, but it takes a lot less snow to shut them down.

Where I grew in in WI we'd hit 30 below at least once a winter and schools didn't close until real temp was below zero. We hardly ever closed for snow. I figure it didn't get that cold in Milwaukee because of the lake, but you probably got more snow than we did.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 1:10:41 PM EDT
As far as NFA is concerned, everything goes but the SBS. I've heard rumors of Indiana class 3 dealers selling SBS's in the past, but that it uncomfirmed. AOW shotguns are legal though.

Like mentioned above, find a place about a half hour south of Bloomington in Lawrence County. Definitely a lot cheaper to live there, not to mention that the current Sheriff embraces NFA ownership. Not that it would matter to an SOT such as yourself.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 4:44:33 PM EDT
There's more than Corn in Indiana...

Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:14:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Madness:
Like mentioned above, find a place about a half hour south of Bloomington in Lawrence County. Definitely a lot cheaper to live there, not to mention that the current Sheriff embraces NFA ownership. Not that it would matter to an SOT such as yourself.



I'm in Jackson County (neighbor to Lawrence)

I love where I live
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:26:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 5:40:06 PM EDT by prebans]
Too many replies for me to make individual replies to everybody. THANK YOU, ALL!

JimTh, that is reassuring. I want to go to school, but I also want to keep my license current if at all possible. It's MUCH easier to move an existing license than it is to let it lapse and do it all over again. Out of a house is best; aside from not having to rent a place of business, part of the house also becomes a business tax write-off. Further, transferring stuff when you're a student is much easier when you don't have to drive all over creation when you should be studying. It's just a win-win situation all the way around.

Open carry is common out here. I might actually wonder if I didn't see people doing it!

Thank you to the tax links!

Mike_L, I want to live as close to campus as possible. The problem is that liberals college areas often are unfriendly to guns, gun owners, and especially gun dealers. I don't even want to think of having to go before the city board and getting my name in the paper. It's NOT how I want to get known as a dealer-- I much prefer through fair deals and having neat stuff for sale.

Weather sound fair enough. I'll be the one shivering like a buffoon in a parka, though. A cold winter here is when it dips into the 50s!

M4Madness, I thought that Indiana had some weird rule about shotguns! So, the Serbu Super Shorty 3 shot pistol grip pump AOW is fine but the replica pistol grip double barrel with hammers and double triggers SBS is not. Heh, oh well... Do they allow dealers to possess SBS or would I have to keep them under lock and key in a friendly state?

EDITED TO ADD that I was just told that a SBS could be okayed in Indiana with ANY barrel length so long as the overall length was at least 26". That doesn't help my poor in-the-works double barrel 12ga pistol SBS, but it might work for something with a full or folding stock... Wow, this is up there with Connecticut's "full auto only" and Washington's "silencers are legal but may not be used on a gun" rules!

BTW, BATFE is really careful about allowing NFA into a state where it may not be allowed. Even if a paperwork error occurs and something is let through, they WILL do whatever is necessary to make it right. If a post '86 DS MG is transferred incorrectly, agents will come to collect it. If a NFA weapon is okayed in a state where it is unlawful, ATF will come to collect. (In both cases, they'll also reverse the transfer and give you a refund of your tax stamp.) About the only case where they'll just frown is if a PRE-86 DS is transferred to a standard person under otherwise lawful circumstances. The lucky individual gets a visit, is informed of the error, told they can keep it, BUT that it can only be transferred to a dealer, PD, LEO, gov't, etc., in the future. There have been many instances of this occurring in the past.

Now, if ATF doesn't notice their error and the owner doesn't go crowing about his/her "luck," things do slip through. Further, sometimes items that preexist the creation of a statute are grandfathered in. (You'd be SURPRISED how many transferrable MGs are floating around in ILLINOIS!)

So, ATF knowingly approving SBS? No. Unknowningly? I can definitely agree to that. Perhaps there are some around Indiana that pre-exist the creation of the anti-SBS statute, too..... If there's anything I've learned as a C3, it's to NEVER doubt ANYTHING-- just make sure it's papered.

Back on topic, the other reason I ask this is because there's always that possibility that I have to decide between school and my license. I've already made up my mind-- school wins. I want to ensure that I can still get signoffs if and when necessary.

Chesh97, that's what I try to explain to people about Iowa.

Thank you again, everybody!

Mike
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:14:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Madness:
As far as NFA is concerned, everything goes but the SBS.



Explosive DD's (ie grenades/bombs/etc) are a no-go, too, though large-bore DD's (USAS-12 & Street Sweeper shotguns) are OK.

Link Posted: 10/4/2005 9:12:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 9:14:19 AM EDT by prebans]

Originally Posted By Shooter521:

Originally Posted By M4Madness:
As far as NFA is concerned, everything goes but the SBS.



Explosive DD's (ie grenades/bombs/etc) are a no-go, too, though large-bore DD's (USAS-12 & Street Sweeper shotguns) are OK.




Eh, as much as I like those, I don't have any desire to have them about inside my house.

Mike
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 9:58:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By prebans:

Originally Posted By Shooter521:

Originally Posted By M4Madness:
As far as NFA is concerned, everything goes but the SBS.



Explosive DD's (ie grenades/bombs/etc) are a no-go, too, though large-bore DD's (USAS-12 & Street Sweeper shotguns) are OK.




Eh, as much as I like those, I don't have any desire to have them about inside my house.

Mike


While most Hoosiers may not own these, most probably WANT TO! So you have to ask yourself, do you really belong here?

But you are doing the right thing, puruse the education first. If you find a way to own a shotgun (not AOW) with a barrel under 18", please post about it here.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 12:00:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zoub:

Originally Posted By prebans:

Originally Posted By Shooter521:

Originally Posted By M4Madness:
As far as NFA is concerned, everything goes but the SBS.



Explosive DD's (ie grenades/bombs/etc) are a no-go, too, though large-bore DD's (USAS-12 & Street Sweeper shotguns) are OK.




Eh, as much as I like those, I don't have any desire to have them about inside my house.

Mike


While most Hoosiers may not own these, most probably WANT TO! So you have to ask yourself, do you really belong here?

But you are doing the right thing, puruse the education first. If you find a way to own a shotgun (not AOW) with a barrel under 18", please post about it here.



CT bans "selective fire" weapons. Full auto only isn't selective fire, so MG guys in CT either buy full auto only weapons OR have special parts made that ensure their normally selective fire weapons are full auto only.

Let me see if I can find the exact Indiana statute. It's all in how it's written.....

Mike
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 12:57:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zoub:
If you find a way to own a shotgun (not AOW) with a barrel under 18", please post about it here.



I've never heard anything about this either, and I've lived here all my life (37 years). My understanding is that short-barrelled shotguns with pistol grips (AOW's) are legal, while short-barrelled shotguns with buttstocks are not.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:40:44 PM EDT
My buddy bought a 14" Mossy 590 off the shelf at PopGuns a few back, no problem there? Russ at Elmore's explained to me that you cannot "make" and SBS, but you can purchase a factory SBS like the Benelli Entry, or Mossy 590, or a Wilson Combat/Scattergun Tech? TIFWIW!
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 9:02:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 9:05:11 PM EDT by prebans]

Originally Posted By GUNGUY1911:
My buddy bought a 14" Mossy 590 off the shelf at PopGuns a few back, no problem there? Russ at Elmore's explained to me that you cannot "make" and SBS, but you can purchase a factory SBS like the Benelli Entry, or Mossy 590, or a Wilson Combat/Scattergun Tech? TIFWIW!



I know that the 590 is NOT available in pistol grip only-- otherwise Serbu would be cooking those up as Super Shorty AOWs. Definitely sounds like a SBS.....

Time to find that statute. My words will always be in bold from this point onward.

Okay, from www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/ch5.html:

Note: Indiana doesn't allow switchblades? Yet another thing I'll have to leave back in AZ..!

No throwing stars..? Of all the things to regulate..... Anyhow.....


IC 35-47-5-4.1
Sawed-off shotgun
Sec. 4.1. (a) A person who:
(1) manufactures;
(2) causes to be manufactured;
(3) imports into Indiana;
(4) keeps for sale;
(5) offers or exposes for sale; or
(6) gives, lends, or possesses;
any sawed-off shotgun commits dealing in a sawed-off shotgun, a Class D felony.
(b) The presence of a weapon referred to in subsection (a) in a motor vehicle (as defined under IC 9-13-2-105(a)) except for school buses and a vehicle operated in the transportation of passengers by a common carrier (as defined in IC 8-2.1-17-4) creates an inference that the weapon is in the possession of the persons occupying the motor vehicle. However, the inference does not apply to all the persons occupying the motor vehicle if the weapon is found upon, or under the control of, one (1) of the occupants. In addition, the inference does not apply to a duly licensed driver of a motor vehicle for hire who finds the weapon in the licensed driver's motor vehicle in the proper pursuit of the licensed driver's trade.
(c) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting in the course of the officer's official duties or to a person who manufactures or imports for sale or sells a sawed-off shotgun to a law enforcement agency.
As added by P.L.1-1990, SEC.351. Amended by P.L.2-1991, SEC.107.

IC 35-47-5-5
Application of chapter
Sec. 5. This chapter does not apply to any firearm not designed to use fixed cartridges or fixed ammunition, or any firearm made before January 1, 1899.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

Okay, so pre-1899 and blackpowder short-barreled shotguns are legal. It also doesn't apply to cops, those who sell to cops (ie Class II/III manufacturers/dealers), and common carriers. The whole "manufacturers" and "causes to be manufactured" definitely rules out a Form 1 for an individual. Selling as an individual is definitely out, although they didn't specify you can't barter it. That doesn't do us a whole lot of good, as mere possession is specifically banned. Not looking so good.....

(You know, it'd be really easy to fix this up... Just add the line <as under "machineguns"> that it's okay in accordance with the NFA.)

Okay, so it appears illegal. Last chance... What IS the definition of a sawed-off shotgun? Maybe they'll define it differently than the Federal definition..?

From www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/ch1.html


IC 35-47-1-10
"Sawed-off shotgun"
Sec. 10. "Sawed-off shotgun" means:
(1) a shotgun having one (1) or more barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length; and
(2) any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

IC 35-47-1-11
"Shotgun"
Sec. 11. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

The only POSSIBLE thing I could see is that they said AND between the two descriptions of what makes a sawed-off shotgun. That could imply that you need both conditions met to have a naughty weapon. However, somehow I doubt they'd agree with me and pressing the issue is probably ill advised. Oh, well-- can't blame us for trying, right..?

Looks like a SBS is definitely a no-go.

I have to wonder why they get so upset over a SBS and ONLY a SBS. This still allows for Indianans to own AOW shotguns and cut down DD shotguns (Streetsweeper, Striker, USAS). Not that I'm complaining they allow for everything else, I wonder what made them decide to utterly ban this single class of NFA firearm while leaving everything else essentially alone?

FWIW,

Mike
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 9:17:15 PM EDT
Moving away from the SBS discussion, this has got to be one of the most friendly groups I've found in any of the HTFs.

THANK YOU to EVERYONE for all the good information!

Sincerely,

Mike
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 5:57:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GUNGUY1911:
My buddy bought a 14" Mossy 590 off the shelf at PopGuns a few back, no problem there? Russ at Elmore's explained to me that you cannot "make" and SBS, but you can purchase a factory SBS like the Benelli Entry, or Mossy 590, or a Wilson Combat/Scattergun Tech? TIFWIW!



GG, could you find out what the overall length of your bud's gun is? I am guessing it must be at least 26". This could get interesting and definitely takes precedence over where prebans decides to go to school.

I may have to give Pops a call too.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:19:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By prebans:
Sec. 10. "Sawed-off shotgun" means:
(1) a shotgun having one (1) or more barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length; and
(2) any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.


That "and" poses an interesting exercise in interpretation. Does this mean "a shotgun of any length with <18" bbl is a sawed-off shotgun and a shotgun under 26" overall with barrel of any length is a sawed-off shotgun"? Or does it mean that "a gun with barrel <18" and overall <26" is a sawed-off shotgun" with the implied definition that a gun <18" bbl but still >26" overall or one with bbl >18" but <26" overall is legal? Would probably take a court case and judge's ruling to clarify this. Any volunteers to be the test case?


... I wonder what made them decide to utterly ban this single class of NFA firearm while leaving everything else essentially alone?

My guess is that they meant to have the "it's OK if you follow the NFA" part on this too, but it somehow got left off and nobody cared enough to amend it when they figured it out.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:44:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zoub:

Originally Posted By GUNGUY1911:
My buddy bought a 14" Mossy 590 off the shelf at PopGuns a few back, no problem there? Russ at Elmore's explained to me that you cannot "make" and SBS, but you can purchase a factory SBS like the Benelli Entry, or Mossy 590, or a Wilson Combat/Scattergun Tech? TIFWIW!



GG, could you find out what the overall length of your bud's gun is? I am guessing it must be at least 26". This could get interesting and definitely takes precedence over where prebans decides to go to school.

I may have to give Pops a call too.



LMAO! Yeah, gee thanks.

Mike
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:54:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 7:57:24 AM EDT by prebans]

Originally Posted By Mike_L:

Originally Posted By prebans:
Sec. 10. "Sawed-off shotgun" means:
(1) a shotgun having one (1) or more barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length; and
(2) any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.


That "and" poses an interesting exercise in interpretation. Does this mean "a shotgun of any length with <18" bbl is a sawed-off shotgun and a shotgun under 26" overall with barrel of any length is a sawed-off shotgun"? Or does it mean that "a gun with barrel <18" and overall <26" is a sawed-off shotgun" with the implied definition that a gun <18" bbl but still >26" overall or one with bbl >18" but <26" overall is legal? Would probably take a court case and judge's ruling to clarify this. Any volunteers to be the test case?


... I wonder what made them decide to utterly ban this single class of NFA firearm while leaving everything else essentially alone?

My guess is that they meant to have the "it's OK if you follow the NFA" part on this too, but it somehow got left off and nobody cared enough to amend it when they figured it out.



Being a test case for a misdemeanor is one thing. For a felony..?

The thing that I could see being an issue is the placement of the semicolon.

This is item #1; and
This is item #2.

Versus

This is item #1 and;
This is item #2.

The first (which IN uses) is more to show two items that can be considered separate items. The second is for two items which must be considered together. It doesn't ALWAYS work this way and still might be exploitable as a loophole, but I'd want it on paper before tossing the dice with my voting, gun ownership, ccw, and "choice to not to live in a prison" rights.

FWIW,

Mike
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 12:50:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By prebans:
I wonder what made them decide to utterly ban this single class of NFA firearm while leaving everything else essentially alone?


I bet it was John Dillinger. How long has this been banned in Indiana?

PS has prebans picked a college yet?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 1:13:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mike_L:

Originally Posted By prebans:
Sec. 10. "Sawed-off shotgun" means:
(1) a shotgun having one (1) or more barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length; and
(2) any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.


That "and" poses an interesting exercise in interpretation. Does this mean "a shotgun of any length with <18" bbl is a sawed-off shotgun and a shotgun under 26" overall with barrel of any length is a sawed-off shotgun"? Or does it mean that "a gun with barrel <18" and overall <26" is a sawed-off shotgun" with the implied definition that a gun <18" bbl but still >26" overall or one with bbl >18" but <26" overall is legal?



My guess is that a shotgun with an 18"+ barrel that has an OAL of less than 26" is classified as a SBS as well as a shotgun with a barrel less than 18".

I'd like to find some way to get SBS's legalized as an NFA item here in Indiana. Like mentioned above, an AOW shotgun is a heck of a lot more easily concealed than a SBS, and they're legal. Who do we contact to get legislation introduced to correct this? While we're at it, let's get suppressors legalized for hunting as well. Some states (Colorado for example) allow you to hunt any game species in the state with suppressed weapons, while other states allow them for varmint hunting only. If they try to pull some crap about poaching increasing with suppressor legality, I'll tell them that I figure if someone is going to break the law by poaching, then they'll probably have no fears about breaking another law by using a suppressor anyway. Might as well legalize them.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 1:14:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zoub:

Originally Posted By prebans:
I wonder what made them decide to utterly ban this single class of NFA firearm while leaving everything else essentially alone?


I bet it was John Dillinger. How long has this been banned in Indiana?

PS has prebans picked a college yet?



LMAO!

I won't even be sending in law school apps until NEXT year! Right now I'm just exploring interesting areas of the country.. UI-B is definitely high on the list, that's why I wandered in here in the first place.

Mike
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:28:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 8:30:35 PM EDT by prebans]

Originally Posted By M4Madness:

Originally Posted By Mike_L:

Originally Posted By prebans:
Sec. 10. "Sawed-off shotgun" means:
(1) a shotgun having one (1) or more barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length; and
(2) any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.


That "and" poses an interesting exercise in interpretation. Does this mean "a shotgun of any length with <18" bbl is a sawed-off shotgun and a shotgun under 26" overall with barrel of any length is a sawed-off shotgun"? Or does it mean that "a gun with barrel <18" and overall <26" is a sawed-off shotgun" with the implied definition that a gun <18" bbl but still >26" overall or one with bbl >18" but <26" overall is legal?



My guess is that a shotgun with an 18"+ barrel that has an OAL of less than 26" is classified as a SBS as well as a shotgun with a barrel less than 18".

I'd like to find some way to get SBS's legalized as an NFA item here in Indiana. Like mentioned above, an AOW shotgun is a heck of a lot more easily concealed than a SBS, and they're legal. Who do we contact to get legislation introduced to correct this? While we're at it, let's get suppressors legalized for hunting as well. Some states (Colorado for example) allow you to hunt any game species in the state with suppressed weapons, while other states allow them for varmint hunting only. If they try to pull some crap about poaching increasing with suppressor legality, I'll tell them that I figure if someone is going to break the law by poaching, then they'll probably have no fears about breaking another law by using a suppressor anyway. Might as well legalize them.



For as good as AZ is, we completely disallow suppressors, short barreled stuff, and mags holding more than 5 rounds for hunting. Even WI allowed for all of those to be used!

It'd be nice to see a change. Hell, it wouldn't even have to be a change-- they just add a line exempting individuals who possess one in compliance with the NFA (as they do for machineguns).

You can have an AOW shotgun or a DD shotgun- but not a standard SBS.... Odd..... If I move in I'm bringing a Serbu and a sawed-off Striker-12.

Mike
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:46:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By prebans:

Originally Posted By Zoub:

Originally Posted By prebans:
I wonder what made them decide to utterly ban this single class of NFA firearm while leaving everything else essentially alone?


I bet it was John Dillinger. How long has this been banned in Indiana?

PS has prebans picked a college yet?



LMAO!

I won't even be sending in law school apps until NEXT year! Right now I'm just exploring interesting areas of the country.. UI-B is definitely high on the list, that's why I wandered in here in the first place.

Mike


Don't fill out any apps until after we let you know the results of our "secret ballot." Basically an inner circle of Hoosier ARFCOM members will meet to discuss your qualifications and then vote on whether or not we want you here. Next meeting is not until November! I would say your chances are good.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 8:32:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zoub:

Don't fill out any apps until after we let you know the results of our "secret ballot." Basically an inner circle of Hoosier ARFCOM members will meet to discuss your qualifications and then vote on whether or not we want you here. Next meeting is not until November! I would say your chances are good.



Psst...Ammo and Pizza for bribes and your in like Flynn!!
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 9:13:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jaeger_1969:
Psst...Ammo and Pizza for bribes and your in like Flynn!!



He has to let us shoot his gunz, too!
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 9:57:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 9:58:50 AM EDT by prebans]

Originally Posted By Shooter521:

Originally Posted By jaeger_1969:
Psst...Ammo and Pizza for bribes and your in like Flynn!!



He has to let us shoot his gunz, too!



Heh... I'm just a small time, small potatoes dealer. I'm afraid you'd be disappointed in my pitiful collection. Things used to be a bit better for me financially, but women can "cause problems."

I might be able to handle some ammo and pizza, though.

Happily single,

Mike
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 12:00:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By prebans:
Things used to be a bit better for me financially, but women can "cause problems."


Certain knowledge guarantees you a Hoosier membership. You have shown you posses this knowledge and understanding. Welcome aboard!
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:05:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zoub:

Originally Posted By prebans:
Things used to be a bit better for me financially, but women can "cause problems."


Certain knowledge guarantees you a Hoosier membership. You have shown you posses this knowledge and understanding. Welcome aboard!







Hey, I'll only first be applying by this time next year to get admitted for 2007! But thank you-- y'all are all right!

I'll have to make a new thread if I come up to visit and tour UI-B. Maybe I could (cough) run a demo or something...

Mike
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 12:34:02 AM EDT
Aside from no firearms on campus, I'm sure you were more then likely filled in on the standard Indiana stuff

Bloomington is full of tree huggers and touchy feely types but aside from that, its not too bad
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 6:47:53 PM EDT
I don't think that this will apply to you, but stay AWAY from Gary, Hammond, East Chicago, Crown Point, etc.

Very nasty areas.

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:17:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deej86:
I don't think that this will apply to you, but stay AWAY from Gary, Hammond, East Chicago, Crown Point, etc.

Very nasty areas.




I used to live in Milwaukee, WI...

Even we knew to stay away from those places! (I was also warned about a "Buffington Harbor," too..?)

Mike
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