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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 6/13/2005 7:23:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2005 9:49:33 AM EDT by USMC03]
Well gents I am bringing Tactical Response back to Pueblo West, Colorado for their 10th course since 2001. Here's the info, hope to see some of you there:

Tactical Rifle / Carbinel Course
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Date: September 17 - 18, 2005
Cost: PWSA members $300 / non members $350



Tactical Rifle/Carbine


The center fire semi-auto rifle chambered for a full power or intermediate cartridge is the most formidable and versatile personal fighting implement devised to date. Appropriate for either the defensive, tactical, or sporting user, this two-day course imparts a level of understanding that far exceeds graduates of U.S. military rifle training. Covers trajectory, battlesight zero, practical ready and firing positions, close- and medium-range snap shooting, weapons handling, urban applications, team drills, firing while moving, moving and multiple targets, plus the tactics required to employ this potent tool in combat.

PWSA members: $300 Non-members: $350



Course Equipment List:

- One (1) open mind

- Bring a lunch to the range both days

- 1000 rounds rifle and 250 rounds pistol ammo All ammo MUST be factory loaded!

- Tactical sling (required)

- Strongside belt holster

- Eye and ear protection (muffs recommended)

- Sturdy gun belt

- Minimum of three magazines for each weapon

- Magazine pouch for each

- Raingear (We shoot rain or shine)

- Hat and sunblock

- Knee and elbow pads (optional)

- Drinking water (Camelback stronglyrecommended)

- Bug Spray

- Pen and paper

Email: Info@TacticalResponse.com or register on-line


For course or local info feel free to contact me directly at CARPENTER0311@MSN.COM


___________________________________________________________________________


Directions and Lodging Info:



Motels in Pueblo West (10 minute driving time to the range)

-Best Western Inn Pueblo West (719) 547-2111
-Comfort Inn of Pueblo West (719) 547-9400
If you stay at one of these motels see special directions (read short cut) to the range below


Motels in the city of Pueblo (30 to 40 minutes driving time to the range)

-Comfort Inn (719) 542-6868
-Super 8 Motel (719) 545-4104
-Days Inn (719) 543-8031
-Econo Lodge (719) 542-9933
-Hampton Inn (719) 544-4700
-Holiday Inn (719) 543-8050
-La Quinta Inn (719) 542-3500


Directions:

From the city of Pueblo

-Exit I-25 at the Highway 50 West exit (also know as US 50) and head WEST bound (toward Pueblo West)

-Hwy 50 West to Purcell (first traffic light in Pueblo West)

-Turn Right (North) onto Purcell and travel 2.6 miles to Platteville Rd.

-Turn Left (West) onto Platteville Blvd and travel 1.5 miles to Gantts Fort

-Turn Right (North) onto Gantts Fort and tavel 2.4 miles to Platteville Rd. (Platteville Rd makes a large loop through Pueblo West)

-Turn Left (West) onto Platteville Rd and travel .3 (3/10) mile to Cashmere Ave

-Turn Right on Cashmere ave and take the second road left to the range. There are green / white signs once your reach Cashmere ave directing you to the range


Coming from Colorado Springs

-South bound on I-25 to Exit #108

-Exit on #108, at the end of the off ramp take a right onto Purcell

-Travel 4.2 miles on Purcell to Platteville Rd (dirt road) and turn right onto Platteville Rd.

-Travel 2.4 miles on Platteville Rd to Cashmire Ave (when Platteville road turns from a dirt road to an asphault road, you have less than a half mile until you are at Cashmire Ave)

-Turn Right on Cashmere ave and take the second road left to the range. There are green / white signs once your reach Cashmere ave directing you to the range


Coming from the Best Western or Comfort Inn in Pueblo West

-Take McCulloch north of Highway 50 west and follow it until it dead ends into Platteville Rd.

-Turn Left (West) onto Platteville Blvd and travel to Gantts Fort

-Turn Right (North) onto Gantts Fort and tavel 2.4 miles to Platteville Rd. (Platteville Rd makes a large loop through Pueblo West)

-Turn Left (West) onto Platteville Rd and travel .3 (3/10) mile to Cashmere Ave

-Turn Right on Cashmere ave and take the second road left to the range. There are green / white signs once your reach Cashmere ave directing you to the range


Questions on directions or lodging feel free to contact me directly at Carpenter0311@msn.com



Link Posted: 6/14/2005 7:25:24 AM EDT
Guys, don't miss this one!


Link Posted: 6/15/2005 9:30:31 AM EDT
I am there!!!
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 3:09:48 PM EDT
Jeff,

Do you recommend a load bearing vest for the carbine class?
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 6:49:48 PM EDT

Yup, I already registered for this one! I took this class last fall, and I highly recommend it for all who are interested. This is a great value, and from what I understand, this class is already filling up fast.

Andrew
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 7:24:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 6:21:32 PM EDT by USMC03]

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Jeff,

Do you recommend a load bearing vest for the carbine class?




Life has been EXTREEMLY busy for me during the last month. I'm in the process of writting up an article for the Tactical Response website on all things related to carbines and gear needed for carbine classes.

My answers are not always the "coolest" answers, but they may be the most practical if you ever find yourself defending your life with a carbine.

Here is a post that I wrote in the Perfect Tactical Carbine Setup thread and will also be in the upcoming article. Hopefully it provokes some thought and answer's your question. If not let me know and I'll help you out the best I can:

"For a holster I would recommend a Blade-Tech, G-Code, or any other high quality KYDEX outside the waist band holster that attaches to the belt via BELT LOOPS. I am a big fan of train with what you will carry. If you are not going to carry your gun around on a daily basis in a tactical thigh holster, then don't wear it to training. Wear what you will use in real life!!!

This also goes for carrying your spare magazines for your carbine. If you are going to carry an extra spare magazine or two in your rear support side pants pocket, or in the cargo pocket of your Old Navy cargo pants....then when you attend training, store your spare magazines in the same place. Don't be one of those guys that has a $500 chest rig, and will never use it in real life. Use in training what you will use in real life.

There is a reason why I recommend this. A Narcotics Sgt. that works on my Dept. went to a 3 gun match and he was watching another shooter. The shooter's AR15 had been working fine all day, then came up to a stage that required a magazine change. The shooter shot the course of fire and retreived a magazine from his support side rear pocket, inserted it into the AR15, shot and the gun jammed. The shooter cleared the jam, fired another round and the gun jammed again. This happended for several rounds and the shooter had to stop and fix his gun. After examining the gun the shooter had realized that he had a gum wrapper in his pocket and this some how got attached to the feed lip of the magazine, when the shooter inserted the mag and the first round chambered, it carried the gum wrapper into the action of the AR15, thus causing his AR15 to malfunction.


The Sgt. told me that many times he and his crew run out of the office to go serve a small warrant and instead of wearing all his tactical gear he just wears his vest and puts an extra magazine or two in his back pocket. After seeing what happened at this match, the Sgt now makes sure that his pocket is free of any debris PRIOR to putting a magazine in his pants pocket. This is a great thing to learn in training, but would SUCK in a very bad way to have to learn when the bullets were flying both ways. In short train like you will fight."

We have all heard the term "You will fight like you train". Why take the course wearing a piece of equipment that you would never wear in the real world. If you are in the military, a SWAT cop, a contractor, etc...then wear what you would wear at work or something that is set up with the mag pouches, etc in the same place. If you are a civilian you are probably going to stuff a mag in a pocket, so why not train like that.

The story above is a good illistration of lesson's learned in training that could cost you your life in the real world.



Take care and stay safe

Link Posted: 6/17/2005 12:10:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Jeff,

Do you recommend a load bearing vest for the carbine class?




Live has been EXTREEMLY busy for me during the last month. I'm in the process of writting up an article for the Tactical Response website on all things related to carbines and gear needed for carbine classes.

My answers are not always the "coolest" answers, but they may be the most practical if you ever find yourself defending your life with a carbine.

Here is a post that I wrote in the Perfect Tactical Carbine Setup thread and will also be in the upcoming article. Hopefully it provokes some thought and answer's your question. If not let me know and I'll help you out the best I can:

"For a holster I would recommend a Blade-Tech, G-Code, or any other high quality KYDEX outside the waist band holster that attaches to the belt via BELT LOOPS. I am a big fan of train with what you will carry. If you are not going to carry your gun around on a daily basis in a tactical thigh holster, then don't wear it to training. Wear what you will use in real life!!!

This also goes for carrying your spare magazines for your carbine. If you are going to carry an extra spare magazine or two in your rear support side pants pocket, or in the cargo pocket of your Old Navy cargo pants....then when you attend training, store your spare magazines in the same place. Don't be one of those guys that has a $500 chest rig, and will never use it in real life. Use in training what you will use in real life.

There is a reason why I recommend this. A Narcotics Sgt. that works on my Dept. went to a 3 gun match and he was watching another shooter. The shooter's AR15 had been working fine all day, then came up to a stage that required a magazine change. The shooter shot the course of fire and retreived a magazine from his support side rear pocket, inserted it into the AR15, shot and the gun jammed. The shooter cleared the jam, fired another round and the gun jammed again. This happended for several rounds and the shooter had to stop and fix his gun. After examining the gun the shooter had realized that he had a gum wrapper in his pocket and this some how got attached to the feed lip of the magazine, when the shooter inserted the mag and the first round chambered, it carried the gum wrapper into the action of the AR15, thus causing his AR15 to malfunction.


The Sgt. told me that many times he and his crew run out of the office to go serve a small warrant and instead of wearing all his tactical gear he just wears his vest and puts an extra magazine or two in his back pocket. After seeing what happened at this match, the Sgt now makes sure that his pocket is free of any debris PRIOR to putting a magazine in his pants pocket. This is a great thing to learn in training, but would SUCK in a very bad way to have to learn when the bullets were flying both ways. In short train like you will fight."

We have all heard the term "You will fight like you train". Why take the course wearing a piece of equipment that you would never wear in the real world. If you are in the military, a SWAT cop, a contractor, etc...then wear what you would wear at work or something that is set up with the mag pouches, etc in the same place. If you are a civilian you are probably going to stuff a mag in a pocket, so why not train like that. The story above is a good illistration of lesson's learned in training that could cause you your life in the real world.



Take care and stay safe





Gotcha. Here is my question then: Since I don't plan on carrying my AR with me all the time (I don't think the people of Denver are quite ready for that and that is why I have a CCW pistol) there are pretty much only two circumstances when I can see using a carbine to defend my life: home invasion and SHTF (riots or the like).

In the home invasion scenario, I would bunker down with the rifle and secure my stronghold. No real need to carry mags, and I probably wouldn't be prepared to carry them as I don't sleep in web gear or 5.11 pants.

In the unlikely SHTF situation, I would want to have as many mags with me as possible and this would most easily be facilitated by an LBV. I know I don't need some $500 rig, but I though that something that could hold a half dozen AR mags would be useful.

Any comments?
Link Posted: 6/17/2005 8:48:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:

Originally Posted By USMC03:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Jeff,

Do you recommend a load bearing vest for the carbine class?




Live has been EXTREEMLY busy for me during the last month. I'm in the process of writting up an article for the Tactical Response website on all things related to carbines and gear needed for carbine classes.

My answers are not always the "coolest" answers, but they may be the most practical if you ever find yourself defending your life with a carbine.

Here is a post that I wrote in the Perfect Tactical Carbine Setup thread and will also be in the upcoming article. Hopefully it provokes some thought and answer's your question. If not let me know and I'll help you out the best I can:

"For a holster I would recommend a Blade-Tech, G-Code, or any other high quality KYDEX outside the waist band holster that attaches to the belt via BELT LOOPS. I am a big fan of train with what you will carry. If you are not going to carry your gun around on a daily basis in a tactical thigh holster, then don't wear it to training. Wear what you will use in real life!!!

This also goes for carrying your spare magazines for your carbine. If you are going to carry an extra spare magazine or two in your rear support side pants pocket, or in the cargo pocket of your Old Navy cargo pants....then when you attend training, store your spare magazines in the same place. Don't be one of those guys that has a $500 chest rig, and will never use it in real life. Use in training what you will use in real life.

There is a reason why I recommend this. A Narcotics Sgt. that works on my Dept. went to a 3 gun match and he was watching another shooter. The shooter's AR15 had been working fine all day, then came up to a stage that required a magazine change. The shooter shot the course of fire and retreived a magazine from his support side rear pocket, inserted it into the AR15, shot and the gun jammed. The shooter cleared the jam, fired another round and the gun jammed again. This happended for several rounds and the shooter had to stop and fix his gun. After examining the gun the shooter had realized that he had a gum wrapper in his pocket and this some how got attached to the feed lip of the magazine, when the shooter inserted the mag and the first round chambered, it carried the gum wrapper into the action of the AR15, thus causing his AR15 to malfunction.


The Sgt. told me that many times he and his crew run out of the office to go serve a small warrant and instead of wearing all his tactical gear he just wears his vest and puts an extra magazine or two in his back pocket. After seeing what happened at this match, the Sgt now makes sure that his pocket is free of any debris PRIOR to putting a magazine in his pants pocket. This is a great thing to learn in training, but would SUCK in a very bad way to have to learn when the bullets were flying both ways. In short train like you will fight."

We have all heard the term "You will fight like you train". Why take the course wearing a piece of equipment that you would never wear in the real world. If you are in the military, a SWAT cop, a contractor, etc...then wear what you would wear at work or something that is set up with the mag pouches, etc in the same place. If you are a civilian you are probably going to stuff a mag in a pocket, so why not train like that. The story above is a good illistration of lesson's learned in training that could cause you your life in the real world.



Take care and stay safe





Gotcha. Here is my question then: Since I don't plan on carrying my AR with me all the time (I don't think the people of Denver are quite ready for that and that is why I have a CCW pistol) there are pretty much only two circumstances when I can see using a carbine to defend my life: home invasion and SHTF (riots or the like).

In the home invasion scenario, I would bunker down with the rifle and secure my stronghold. No real need to carry mags, and I probably wouldn't be prepared to carry them as I don't sleep in web gear or 5.11 pants.

In the unlikely SHTF situation, I would want to have as many mags with me as possible and this would most easily be facilitated by an LBV. I know I don't need some $500 rig, but I though that something that could hold a half dozen AR mags would be useful.

Any comments?




Coming from another civilian who attended this class last year; It is not a requirement to have a vest to successfully make it through the class. There were plenty of people who made it through without. One of the best shooters I saw in last years class (his groups were tight!) just had a single plastic 30rd mag holder on his belt. He made it through just fine.

That said, I had a vest, and it sure made life easier. The mags were handy, I was not scrambling to reload every cycle, and it was a vest I might throw on (assuming I felt I had time) during a home invasion, etc. It is also a vest I plan to shoot matches in. I am going in with a different (but better) setup for this year's class. Not because I have to have it or need it (technically I don't), but I am an enthusiast and I had the $$$.

If you have the cash, feel like you would use the vest outside of this class, and want it, get one. If not, just get one or two belt attached mag holders from Blade-Tech (IIRC) or a similar company, or just wear your 5.11 pants and really save your money.

Just my two cents based on my own experiences, take what you want from it! Look forward to seeing you in Sept!

KOTB


Link Posted: 6/17/2005 9:25:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KingOfTheBumps:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:

Originally Posted By USMC03:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Jeff,

Do you recommend a load bearing vest for the carbine class?




Live has been EXTREEMLY busy for me during the last month. I'm in the process of writting up an article for the Tactical Response website on all things related to carbines and gear needed for carbine classes.

My answers are not always the "coolest" answers, but they may be the most practical if you ever find yourself defending your life with a carbine.

Here is a post that I wrote in the Perfect Tactical Carbine Setup thread and will also be in the upcoming article. Hopefully it provokes some thought and answer's your question. If not let me know and I'll help you out the best I can:

"For a holster I would recommend a Blade-Tech, G-Code, or any other high quality KYDEX outside the waist band holster that attaches to the belt via BELT LOOPS. I am a big fan of train with what you will carry. If you are not going to carry your gun around on a daily basis in a tactical thigh holster, then don't wear it to training. Wear what you will use in real life!!!

This also goes for carrying your spare magazines for your carbine. If you are going to carry an extra spare magazine or two in your rear support side pants pocket, or in the cargo pocket of your Old Navy cargo pants....then when you attend training, store your spare magazines in the same place. Don't be one of those guys that has a $500 chest rig, and will never use it in real life. Use in training what you will use in real life.

There is a reason why I recommend this. A Narcotics Sgt. that works on my Dept. went to a 3 gun match and he was watching another shooter. The shooter's AR15 had been working fine all day, then came up to a stage that required a magazine change. The shooter shot the course of fire and retreived a magazine from his support side rear pocket, inserted it into the AR15, shot and the gun jammed. The shooter cleared the jam, fired another round and the gun jammed again. This happended for several rounds and the shooter had to stop and fix his gun. After examining the gun the shooter had realized that he had a gum wrapper in his pocket and this some how got attached to the feed lip of the magazine, when the shooter inserted the mag and the first round chambered, it carried the gum wrapper into the action of the AR15, thus causing his AR15 to malfunction.


The Sgt. told me that many times he and his crew run out of the office to go serve a small warrant and instead of wearing all his tactical gear he just wears his vest and puts an extra magazine or two in his back pocket. After seeing what happened at this match, the Sgt now makes sure that his pocket is free of any debris PRIOR to putting a magazine in his pants pocket. This is a great thing to learn in training, but would SUCK in a very bad way to have to learn when the bullets were flying both ways. In short train like you will fight."

We have all heard the term "You will fight like you train". Why take the course wearing a piece of equipment that you would never wear in the real world. If you are in the military, a SWAT cop, a contractor, etc...then wear what you would wear at work or something that is set up with the mag pouches, etc in the same place. If you are a civilian you are probably going to stuff a mag in a pocket, so why not train like that. The story above is a good illistration of lesson's learned in training that could cause you your life in the real world.



Take care and stay safe





Gotcha. Here is my question then: Since I don't plan on carrying my AR with me all the time (I don't think the people of Denver are quite ready for that and that is why I have a CCW pistol) there are pretty much only two circumstances when I can see using a carbine to defend my life: home invasion and SHTF (riots or the like).

In the home invasion scenario, I would bunker down with the rifle and secure my stronghold. No real need to carry mags, and I probably wouldn't be prepared to carry them as I don't sleep in web gear or 5.11 pants.

In the unlikely SHTF situation, I would want to have as many mags with me as possible and this would most easily be facilitated by an LBV. I know I don't need some $500 rig, but I though that something that could hold a half dozen AR mags would be useful.

Any comments?




Coming from another civilian who attended this class last year; It is not a requirement to have a vest to successfully make it through the class. There were plenty of people who made it through without. One of the best shooters I saw in last years class (his groups were tight!) just had a single plastic 30rd mag holder on his belt. He made it through just fine.

That said, I had a vest, and it sure made life easier. The mags were handy, I was not scrambling to reload every cycle, and it was a vest I might throw on (assuming I felt I had time) during a home invasion, etc. It is also a vest I plan to shoot matches in. I am going in with a different (but better) setup for this year's class. Not because I have to have it or need it (technically I don't), but I am an enthusiast and I had the $$$.

If you have the cash, feel like you would use the vest outside of this class, and want it, get one. If not, just get one or two belt attached mag holders from Blade-Tech (IIRC) or a similar company, or just wear your 5.11 pants and really save your money.

Just my two cents based on my own experiences, take what you want from it! Look forward to seeing you in Sept!

KOTB





Cool. Thanks for the reply. I assume your screen name is a skiing reference. Where do you ski?
Link Posted: 6/17/2005 3:34:55 PM EDT
See you guys there. I'm so syked for this training. Does anyone know what the instructor to student ratio is? Can't wait!
Link Posted: 6/17/2005 4:26:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:
See you guys there. I'm so syked for this training. Does anyone know what the instructor to student ratio is? Can't wait!



Depends on how many students actually show up. I would guess there will be at least three instructors there.



And you better hurry guys, its almost full.
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 12:12:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lancelot:

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:
See you guys there. I'm so syked for this training. Does anyone know what the instructor to student ratio is? Can't wait!



Depends on how many students actually show up. I would guess there will be at least three instructors there.



And you better hurry guys, its almost full.




Got my registration in today! Woohoo!
Link Posted: 6/19/2005 12:42:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Jeff,

Do you recommend a load bearing vest for the carbine class?




I posted a lot of good info here reguarding chest rigs and load bearing vests:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=123&t=344835



Link Posted: 6/19/2005 12:46:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2005 11:42:23 AM EDT by USMC03]
The class is 3/4 full....register while you still can....



Ok, Colorado peoples.

Tactical Response is looking for a location to teach two or three days of Force on Force immediately following this Tactical Rifle class. The dates we want are September 19 and 20 and maybe 21. So far finding a non-range location for the training is proving difficult so if anyone has any leads on a suitable house, business, or other structure between Pueblo and Denver area please contact Tactical Response Vice President Shay VanVlymen at ShayVanVlymen@TacticalResponse.com If you find us a host location your training will be free.


Link Posted: 6/21/2005 9:48:58 AM EDT
I listed the class last Monday night.....There is only 1 (ONE) slot left for this class....If you are interested, seize the oppertunity while there is still room left
Link Posted: 6/21/2005 9:58:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:
I listed the class last Monday night.....There is only 1 (ONE) slot left for this class....If you are interested, seize the oppertunity while there is still room left



Maybe we need to be getting them out for more classes?
Link Posted: 6/22/2005 3:29:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:

Originally Posted By USMC03:
I listed the class last Monday night.....There is only 1 (ONE) slot left for this class....If you are interested, seize the oppertunity while there is still room left



Maybe we need to be getting them out for more classes?




The Pueblo West Sportsman Association will only let me host 2 classes per year. If someone up north could find a range we may be able to bring in more training.

Link Posted: 7/22/2005 1:18:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Jeff,

Do you recommend a load bearing vest for the carbine class?




I posted a lot of good info here reguarding chest rigs and load bearing vests:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=123&t=344835







Jeff,

That link doesn't work anymore. Do you have the information somewhere else?
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 9:25:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:
The Pueblo West Sportsman Association will only let me host 2 classes per year. If someone up north could find a range we may be able to bring in more training.



I am working on a range up north to host training, will know more in about 3 weeks.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 6:01:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Jeff,

That link doesn't work anymore. Do you have the information somewhere else?




thelastgunslinger,

­
Sorry it took me a few days to get back to you on this....I've been out of pocket for the last few days.

That link has some REALLY good info on it, but it looks like it's lost forever......

Here is info that I posted on another board....You may find some of it useful:



I too have a 30 inch waist and the new STRIKE Recon Commando chest harness back piece does not fit me either.

But the older Commando chest harness fits me perfectly. I have an example of both, if you would like to post pics of each please drop me an email at CARPENTER0311@MSN.COM and I'll take pics of both chest rigs.

The "older" version has the "female" fastex buckles attached directly to the chest rig along with the elastic type material.

If you look at the "new" version the "female" fastex buckles are attached to the back strap and they are held onto the back strap by an loop that is made out of an elastic type materail.

Hopefully this will make sense, on the "old" Commando STRIKE rig the "female" fastex buckles were attached to directly to the chest rig with a loop of the elastic material holding them in place. The male fastex buckles are attached to a long piece of nylon webbing (not like the new "belt" that they have on the back of the chest rigs now). With the nylon strap on the old Commando STRIKE rig you can literally adjust it to the point where the right and left male fastex buckles will touch. I don't know if you have ever seen a Tactical Tailor MAV, but the back of the old STRIKE rigs were set up with the same style back strap.

With the new Commando chest harness I can't get it tight enough around the waist. With the old style I can adjust it to the point where the rig is snug on my body.

_____________________________________________



Here is a section that I wrote to a person about the reason that the Weesatch didn't suit my needs and the issues I had with it being a small guy:


I ordered a HSGI Weesatch that I was going to use as a plate carrier, and ended up sending it back to the company I purchased it from. The reason that I've never purchased any chest rigs from HSGI is because Gene makes great gear, but the designs on his chest rigs are not low profile.

The Weesatch looked low profile but the internal mag pouches are made for 2 mags plus some extra room, so if you didn't have magpuls on the mags the front of the rig would sag a little bit.

Consider my body shape and size and having the following gear stacked layer after layer on top of it: Level IV stand alone ballistic plate + (2) AR mags thick + pouches on top of that.....The pouches were almost a foot away from my body....Due to having 2 mags in each pouch, it doesn’t let the sides of the rig follow the countour of your body, so it's like wearing a piece of plywood....STRAIGHT AND FLAT.....

I personally don't like to put 2 AR mags in an internal pouch anyway, I attmepted to put 1 mag per pouch to make the rig more bendable and more low profile.....well it just made the portion of the vest in front of the internal mags sag even more....

The other problem that I had is that the shoulder straps are made with a sliky nylon, so when you load up loaded mags, water, med kit, pistol mags, and the other odds and ends that the average guy carries on the front the chest rig would constantly ride forward and wouldn't stop until the back pannel touched my neck. I would sinch the rig down as tight as I could and had Level IV plates in both the front and back and the problem continued. I really liked the Weesatch because it carried my ballistic plates, and has A LOT more real estate than your almost any other plate carrier on the market. But it was designed to be worn over the USGI Interceptor body armor. I think if the shoulder pads were padded like the shoulder pads on the STRIKE Recon commando chest harness or the Eagle MLCS chest rig AND the internal mag pouches were made for (1) M4 mag (instead of 2 plus) the chest rig wouldn't ride forward and would take care of the profile issue.


________________________________________________


I have also used the Callahan, it was too bulky for my taste. I wish they had made the MK I part of the plate carrier, instead of "piggy backing" it on top.


Just my experiences and opinions, as with all things your milage may vary.

___________________________________________________________________________________


I have seen larger guys that the Wee and Wasatch will fit.

My main complaints are the fit (it was like wearing a piece of plywood due to the internal mag pouches), the slick nylon shoulder straps (needs dedicated padded shoulder pads), and the design of the internal mag pouches.

If the HSGI Weesatch / Wasatch had internal mag pouchs that accepted a single mag and the shoulder straps were replace with padded shoulder pads, it would be a near perfect design. Just my .02 cents

____________________________________________________________________________________


Copied the following for several replies that I made on another website in reference to the Tactical Tailor MAV:

If you think that the MAV doen't have enough real estate for your needs you may want to take a look at the STRIKE Recon Commando Chest rig, or the Eagle Rhodisian chest rig....The problem that I find with RACK style chest rigs, is they are front heavy and can become uncomfortable over time if you are not carrying a back pack to balance the weight. The weight of the load on a chest right (especially a 1 piece chest rig with a bib) is up front and centered, thus causing more back pain to some users.

With the 2 piece MAV you will sacrifice a little real estate, but the weight is distributed on your sides more and the load is much more comfortable to carry over longer distance and over longer periods of time.

Of all the high dollar rigs that I have owned the Tactical Tailor 2 piece MAV with X-Harness has been the most comfortable by a long shot, it fits better under a pack (Kifaru Pointman, Zulu, Eagle RAID and A-III packs) than any other rig that I have owned or tried.

I take several tactical training classes a year, and usually host 2 classes a year. I use the MAV and the STRIKE chest rigs for these Tactical Carbine courses, and I use them at work as well. The MAV tends to see more use than the STRIKE these days.

____________________________________________
My responses are in bold

I had narrowed it down to the Hellcat but it sounds like you're saying the MAV has more along the sides helping to reduce sag. Did I get that correct?

That is correcty. I really like the "idea" of the internal mag pouches, but in reality they have not worked out for me. Getting the mag out of the internal pouch under stress in not efficient, the internal mags effect the way in which the rig rides and feels agains your body. I have owned (4) Hellcats....The MK1, MK2, and MK3, and a Callahan. I keep going back to the internal mag pouches because I think it's an awesome design, but keep selling my Hellcats because the internal mag pouches don't work for me.


I really like the integral mag pouches though and the MAV doesn't have those AFAIK. This is hard without being able to actually try them on. The Boar (http://www.esstac.com) has integral pouches and is still a contender too.

I got to check out an EssTac BOAR a few months back. The think that I don't like about this design is the front of the chest rig looks like a 1 piece MAV with velcro on the back (part facing your body). The internal mag pouch pannel has a large piece of velcro on it. The internal mag pouch pannel is held to the front of the chest rig by velcro. I have learned numerous times that velcro should never be used as a way of bearing any sort of weight.

The 2 piece MAV with X-Harness may not be the coolest, or the latest / greatest thing on the market, but I have learned after MANY vests, chest rigs, load bearing vests, etc. that it is one of the most practical and comfortable rigs on the market. You can have the coolest looking chest rig / assault vest / load bearing vest on the market, but if it's uncomfortable to wear and doesn't put gear where it's easy to access the end user won't wear it for prolonged periods of time. If you won't wear it, you won't train in it, and if you won't train in it, what is the real use in having it?


________________________________________________


As stated above I have owned 4 different Hellcats (all 3 versions). In theory you would think that the Hellcat would provide a slimmer, more streamlined profile. But in reality the thing that I never liked about the Hellcat is that it's like wearing a piece of plywood due to the internal mag pouches.

The MAV with a double M4 mag pouch is actually slimmer than the pic of the Hellcat that you posted below. The reason the MAV has a lower profile is because there is less layers of material. With the Hellcat pic below, you have the back layer of material, the magazine, the front layer of material, a MALICE clip, then the back side of the mag pouch, the magazine, then the front side of the magazine pouch. With the MAV you have the layer of material that makes up the MAV, the back side of the mag pouch, 2 magazines, and the front of the mag pouch. But we are cutting hairs here, the profile difference between the two chest rigs is not going to be something that the "end user" will notice a difference in.

What I have found with the Hellcats is that the internal mag pouches makes the rig a little stiffer (like wearing a piece of plywood). I have a 30" waist and the MAV fits closer to my body and is very low profile. You sound like you are a slim guy and may have some of the same issues with the Hellcat as I had.

The other problem that I've had with the Hellcats is that of the 5 rigs that I've owned (5 hellcats if you include the Hellcat on the front of the Callahan) is on 3 different Hellcats, I have had the snaps on the internal mag pouches break. Each time SO Tech has fixed the snaps, but I don't think that the internal mag pouches were made to be used on a regular basis.

Another thing you may want to consider is cost. You can get the MAV body, X-Harness and Hydration pouch for under $100. The Hellcat is over $100 and the padded shoulder / hydration pouch is another $100.

It is quicker to get a magazine out of a standard double M4 mag pouch (ie. STRIKE, Paraclete, SOE, etc) than it is to access a magazine from the internal mag pouches of the Hellcat. Ammo is one of those items that I want to have access immedately...because if I need a fresh magazine, I will probably be needing it RIGHT NOW.

I have 4 friends that have made the switch from a Weesatch or Hellcat over to the MAV with X-Harness in the last 2 months.

Just some food for though, use what will work best for your needs.


Good luck


_________________________________________________

Sorry that it's not in essay form, but just pulled my responses from a bunch of posts on the subject.



If you have any specific questions feel free to ask them here or you can email me directly

Link Posted: 7/25/2005 6:02:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By newracer:

Originally Posted By USMC03:
The Pueblo West Sportsman Association will only let me host 2 classes per year. If someone up north could find a range we may be able to bring in more training.



I am working on a range up north to host training, will know more in about 3 weeks.





Looking forward to hearing back from you, there are a lot of guys that live up north that are looking for a place to host classes, so they don't have to drive all the way down to Pueblo West.

Link Posted: 7/25/2005 3:31:51 PM EDT
Jeff,

So with the MAV, can a hydration pack attach to the X Harness? It looks like the harness is too short to attach the hydration pack securely.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 4:18:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2005 4:21:32 PM EDT by USMC03]

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Jeff,

So with the MAV, can a hydration pack attach to the X Harness? It looks like the harness is too short to attach the hydration pack securely.




If you are giong with a MAV and an X-Harness, get a 2 piece MAV, much easier to get in and out of....Yes you can attach the hydration to the back of the X-Harness.....The top of they hydro attaches to the top of the MAV, and you can secure the bottom portion of the hydro carrier to the strap that goes across your back.....Check the pics here and you'll see what I'm talking about:

coloradoshooting.org/ipw-web/gallery/usmc03-album-1

Click the pic once to make it medium size, click twice to make it large.

One the MAV pic on the left (looking at the rig from the front), look between the front buckles and you'll see a light colored strap going from left to right, and you'll see 2 MALICE clips that are close together.

The MALICE clips are attached to the bottom of the hydro and the MAV strap that goes across your lower back, this keep the hydro pouch secured to the MAV and it doesnt' move around at all.

Link Posted: 7/26/2005 12:44:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Jeff,

So with the MAV, can a hydration pack attach to the X Harness? It looks like the harness is too short to attach the hydration pack securely.




If you are giong with a MAV and an X-Harness, get a 2 piece MAV, much easier to get in and out of....Yes you can attach the hydration to the back of the X-Harness.....The top of they hydro attaches to the top of the MAV, and you can secure the bottom portion of the hydro carrier to the strap that goes across your back.....Check the pics here and you'll see what I'm talking about:

coloradoshooting.org/ipw-web/gallery/usmc03-album-1

Click the pic once to make it medium size, click twice to make it large.

One the MAV pic on the left (looking at the rig from the front), look between the front buckles and you'll see a light colored strap going from left to right, and you'll see 2 MALICE clips that are close together.

The MALICE clips are attached to the bottom of the hydro and the MAV strap that goes across your lower back, this keep the hydro pouch secured to the MAV and it doesnt' move around at all.




Got it. Now lots of questions!

If I am seeing right, your rig has 4 double 30 rnd pockets and two large utility pockets. One of the utility poockets has three pistol mag pockets and some other that says "Maxpedition" on it. What is the last one used for?

Does that load out pretty much fill the horizontal space on the MAV? TacticalTailor sells the MAV already configured with 4 triple 30 rnd pocketss, two large utility pocketss and two small utility pockets. You seem to prefer the two mag pockets over the three mag, why? Also, is there any reason that you left the two small pockets off of your rig? Are they too far around the back to reach them? It kind of looks like they might be.

When you are wearing the rig, can you still get to a belt mounted pistol mag carrier, or is that why you put the pistol mag pouches on the large utility pocket?

Thanks a lot.
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 1:05:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Got it. Now lots of questions!

If I am seeing right, your rig has 4 double 30 rnd pockets and two large utility pockets. One of the utility poockets has three pistol mag pockets and some other that says "Maxpedition" on it. What is the last one used for?


My responses are in RED,

Correct, the Maxpedition pouch is a Maxpedition "RollyPolly", it's a dump pouch for your mags, and folds up into a nice, neat, little package that doesn't take up too much real estate when not in use.


Does that load out pretty much fill the horizontal space on the MAV?

Most, but not all.......I'm a smaller guy and this fits me perfect. A larger guy can get more gear on the MAV

TacticalTailor sells the MAV already configured with 4 triple 30 rnd pocketss, two large utility pocketss and two small utility pockets. You seem to prefer the two mag pockets over the three mag, why?

Tactical Tailor's large utilities are too large, if wearing a thigh holster, the bottom of the pouch rests on the top of my holster, they are TOO LONG...

I prefer double mag pouches for a couple reasons (over triples)


1) Mags are easier to extract and insert back into the double mag pouch under stress (triples can be a real pain in the a**)
2) Doubles are both Lighter and Lower Profile than triples (one thing many guys forget it you don't want your rig to "front heavy")
3) I don't need 12 mags, 8 is more than enough



Also, is there any reason that you left the two small pockets off of your rig? Are they too far around the back to reach them? It kind of looks like they might be.

The pouches you are talking about are for grenades....I don't carry grenades, I don't need any other pouches than what I have on the rig, and you are correct, they would be too far back.

Everything on my gear is needed, many guys put pouches on their gear just for the sake of having pouches.....I'm the exact opposite....Everything on my rig serves a purpose, if I don't NEED it, it's not on my rig.


When you are wearing the rig, can you still get to a belt mounted pistol mag carrier, or is that why you put the pistol mag pouches on the large utility pocket?

I can't but some guys can, depends on how you wear your gear, how tall and how wide you are, what your personal preferences are, etc, etc, etc.

On ALL my gear, SWAT gear, field gear, trainning gear....all the pouches are set up in the same fashion. I do this so I know I can get to the essencial gear (ie mags, etc) and nothing changes from one rig to the next.


Hope this helps.


Jeff


Thanks a lot.

Link Posted: 7/27/2005 12:07:20 PM EDT
Jeff,

Which magazine pockets and utility pouches do you use? The utility pockets on your MAV look much nicer than ones Tactical Tailor sells.
Link Posted: 7/27/2005 4:09:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Jeff,

Which magazine pockets and utility pouches do you use? The utility pockets on your MAV look much nicer than ones Tactical Tailor sells.



The only items that I really like that Tactical Tailor makes is their single mag shingles, the MAV, the X-Harness, their Hydro carrier, and their Triple Pistol Mag pouch.

For M4 mag pouches and utility pouches I like the Blackhawk STRIKE pouches. I don' t care for the rest of Blackhawk's gear, but their STRIKE line, is good gear for the money.



I posted this on another board a few months back and just found it. Manyguys trash Blackhawk gear, but have no person experience with it. I have used the older USA made BHI gear, which I like. I have seen numerous failures with the new offshore made BHI gear, which I will never use nor recommend. I have used many of the BHI S.T.R.I.K.E. products which I like, especially when you consider the price.

Here is a post I wrote on another board discussing the M4 pouches from both Paraclete and the BHI STRIKE line:

I have used both the Blackhawk STRIKE and the Paraclete M4 mag pouches extensively. At first I was reluctant to use the the STRIKE gear, but gave it a try at the advise of Eggroll, Molson, and Military Moron.

Here is what I found when comparing the two.

-The velcro on the Paraclete pouches was marginally weaker, I could see it wearing out quickly especially in a field enviornment.

-The elastic on the Paraclete was marginally weaker than the elasitic on the STRIKE pouches. With one mag in the pouch, the Paraclete pouch held the single mag in a loose-not-too-secure manner. With the STRIKE mag pouches the elastic hold the single mag in place like it was made to hold a single M4 mag.

-I purchased between 15 to 20 Paraclete M4 mag pouches over a 2 year period and noticed that the workmanship differed from lot to lot. On some of the brand new Paraclete mag pouches the velcro would hardly hold (kind of like old velcro that is worn out), etc.

-The lids on the STRIKE pouches are removable and adjustable, but very secure. So you can use USGI or HK mags and have the ability to keep lids on some of the pouches and have open top pouches if you want.

-The material on the STRIKE mag pouches are both stiffer and thicker than that of the Paraclete mag pouches. I really like the stiff lids of the STRIKE pouches.

-The STRIKE mag pouches are much more economical than the Paraclete pouches (about 50% less)

-The STRIKE pouches are readily avalible (imagine that in this day and age)


I was so impressed with the STRIKE M4 mag pouches that I use them on my field rigs, my range / 3 gun gear, my plate carriers....and as soon as Egg finished up with my pannel carrier I will also be using them on my SWAT rig....Just my .02


Take care and stay safe

Semper Fi
Jeff

RecceGuy



Jeff are you telling me that people are buying PC stuff just because of the brand name???

I have thought of PC myself, but the high-prices kept me away... but don't want to spend $$$'s on PC if they are not worth the cordura!

USMC03

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RecceGuy:
Jeff are you telling me that people are buying PC stuff just because of the brand name???

I have thought of PC myself, but the high-prices kept me away... but don't want to spend $$$'s on PC if they are not worth the cordura!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recce,

I'm not trying to bash Paraclete, just sharing my observations between two products. There are items that Paraclete makes that I think are very innovative and items that I like. My person opinion is that their gear is for the most part over priced. As for Paraclete's M4 mag pouches I feel that they are over priced and under engineered.

If I were issued the Paraclete mag pouches (and could DX them everytime I thrashed one) I would have no complaint about the Paraclete M4 mag pouches, but when I have to spend $25 a piece on them out of my own wallet, that's when I get a little more paticular about the gear that I buy. Just my opinion, your milage may vary.
_________________

Link Posted: 7/28/2005 5:09:37 PM EDT
Thanks for the info Jeff!

At the Tactical Pistol class in Pueblo in May, some of the guys had pouches that they wore on their belts that they could keep extra ammo and mags in. They looked really useful for keeping moving in the course. Do you know what those are called and who makes them?
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 7:38:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Thanks for the info Jeff!

At the Tactical Pistol class in Pueblo in May, some of the guys had pouches that they wore on their belts that they could keep extra ammo and mags in. They looked really useful for keeping moving in the course. Do you know what those are called and who makes them?




I'm not sure I'm tracking you.....Are you talking about dump pouches? Did it look like a bag? If so get a Maxpedition Medium Rolly Polly, I have one on EVERY piece of gear that I own.


Link Posted: 8/3/2005 12:56:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Thanks for the info Jeff!

At the Tactical Pistol class in Pueblo in May, some of the guys had pouches that they wore on their belts that they could keep extra ammo and mags in. They looked really useful for keeping moving in the course. Do you know what those are called and who makes them?




I'm not sure I'm tracking you.....Are you talking about dump pouches? Did it look like a bag? If so get a Maxpedition Medium Rolly Polly, I have one on EVERY piece of gear that I own.





Jeff, I found this pic from the class. Both of the guys have one. I guess it is a just a dump pouch. Is the Roly Poly the same as those when it is opened up?

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:49:17 PM EDT
Those are Rolly Polly's (opened)

<­BR>

Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:36:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 1:57:16 PM EDT by thelastgunslinger]
Jeff,

On your suggestion, I got a MAV and X-Harness. I think that I have the X-Harness attached correctly, but there is a LOT of extra strap hanging down, from both the attachments on the back of the harness and the waist belt. Did you cut these after you got it properly adjusted?

Also, don't be surprised if my rig looks a lot like yours. You seem to have put a lot more thought into gear than most, and I liked where you had gone with yours.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:45:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Jeff,

On your suggestion, I got a MAV and X-Harness. I think that I have the X-Harness attached correctly, but there is a LOT of extra strap hanging down, from both the attachments on the back of the harness and the waist belt. Did you cut these after you got it properly adjusted?

Also, don't be surprised if my rig looks a lot like yours. You seem to have put a lot more thought into gear than most, and I liked where you had gone with yours.



I don't like cutting straps, because I never know when I may need them. On all my gear, I take the long straps and roll it up and then wrap it in camo / OD green duct tape (also known as 100mph tape) or black electrical tape.

If you look at the pics of the MAV, you may be able to see the rolled up straps.

Doesn't bother me at all if your rig looks like mine....the only thing that matters is that it works for you



Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:04:26 AM EDT
Do single-point or triple-point slings tend to work better for the class?
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 12:29:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Do single-point or triple-point slings tend to work better for the class?




There is a lot of good info on sling selection in this email that I wrote to a friend......I just posted and copied it.....he was asking my opinion on a single point sling....let me know if you need more specific info:


Hi XXXXX,


Hope all is going good for you, been pretty busy here.

Opinions? Remember you asked for it ........None of this is directed at you, but it is my opinion on the matter of this sling and many other things gear related......Here goes, remember not directed toward you, just venting my frustration, but maybe it will give you a different perspective on things related to guns and gear.......

$60+ for a fxxxxxx nylon strap with a buckle on it?!?!?! WTF Over???? Give me a brake. As Barnum T. Baily once said "There is a sucker born every minute"...There may be some select individuals that would benefit from this design, but for what the average shooter, cop, or soldier's uses, I have a hard time justifying that kind of money for a single point sling.... In all fairness, I have never handled on of these slings, but I have been around gear for several years and have learned that there are only so many ways to come up with a solution for any given problem. Thus you see numerous gear manufacturers, and their gear all looks simular.....why? Because there are only so many ways to make a mag pouch, a single point sling, a 3 point sling, a chest rig, a radio pouch, etc, etc, etc....

I think what most people forget is that they are NOT a member of Delta Force, a Navy SEAL, or a member of any other high speed low drag organization. But they see all the high speed / low drag guys with cool gear and they think they NEED that same gear. The high speed / low drag guys select SPECIFIC gear to perform a SPECIFIC mission. The MISSION dictates the GEAR, not the other way around. I think a majority of guys on www.ar15.com and many other boards would be better served with a 3 point sling, if you consider what they are really using the carbine for.....But many of the cool guys have single point slings, so that gives every Tom, Dick, and Harry on the internet a GOOD excuse to go out and buy a single point sling. A prime example of this is, if I were a Patrol officer and all I ever used my AR15 for was patrol duties, I would be better served with a 3 point sling. But because I'm on the SWAT team and when I go to work I have a bunch of gear on (ballistic vest, load bearing gear, gas mask, mission specific gear, etc, etc, etc) a single point sling works better for me.

What it really comes down to is you have to access your REAL mission for you and your gear, then select the correct gear for you. Are you going to be SPIE rigging? Are you going to be fast ropping? Are you going to be doing Long Range Surveillance? I use a $17 CQB Solutions HST single ponit sling for responding to bank robberies, shootings in progress, to back up Patrol, for SWAT, for 3 gun matches, for Tactical Carbine Courses, etc, etc, etc. And I USE my gun A LOT more than 98% of the guys on a lot of these message boards ......The point that I'm trying to make is, get the gear that will help you complete your mission, not the gear that is expensive and cool. In reality what does the $60+ single point sling do that my $17 single point sling doesn't do? It attaches differently, and some of the features are slightly different, but what it really comes down to is they are pretty much the same animal. Are you really going to see that much difference in REAL PERFORMANCE between the $60+ sling and a $17 sling? You will have to be the judge of that.

Let's not loose sight of the "Big picture". As of late you may have noticed that you don't see me on the boards that much.....Well this is because a lot guys on the boards don't have a clue. They are more worried about how cool their safe queen is, then how proficient they are with their tool of choice. When we really look at things, the AR15 is nothing more than a tool. Some guy may have more $$$ invested in his AR, like having a $60+ sling on his gun.....Is that guy any more proficient at using his gun then me....I seriously doubt it. A trend that I have noticed on most board is guys think that the more expensive the tool, the more proficient they will be with it. And they are throwning their money away, or at least throwning it in the wrong direction.

Here is an awesome example of what I am talking about. Here is a new guy, he is new to AR's, and he's getting ready to take a class at Blackwater. He asks what kind of gun he should take....A few of the responses are in the right direction, but most responses lack any real "nutritional value".....You will notice that the thread quickly goes from TRAINING, to GUN PORN....."If you get an AR15 you need an uber-cool this, or an uber-cool that", is basically what the thread turns into....but read my response, I tried to give the new guy the exact info that he needs, information that has a high "nutritional value" :

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=226012



This guy will probably shoot more ammo in 2 days at Blackwater than 90% of the guys on www.ar15.com will shoot in an entire year, and that's no exageration.

Last Sunday I shot in an IDPA match, out of the 5 stages I shot 3 of them "clean", meaning that they all targets were "0"'s, or all shots were in the "A" zone. The Monday before that I tested for a firearms instructor position, there were 11 guys testing, at least 4 of them had 1911's that cost over $1,300, and one of them was a high end Wilson Combat 1911.....Well I used a Glock 34 and was the only guy to score a 200 out of 200 possible points.....Tomarrow I’m shooting in the carbine match here at Pueblo West. The point that I'm trying to make is throwing money at a sling, a sight, a pistol grip, a stock, etc, etc, etc, etc. will NOT make you a better shooter.

If you think a $60+ sling will work better for you than a $17 sling, then get the more expensive sling....but you really have to sit back and assess the REAL mission of your carbine, what you are really going to use it for, and get the gear that will best help you complete that mission. But the best gear in the world will not help you become a better shooter, I just wish guys would understand this and get more involved in shooting their guns instead of dumping money into them. I see so many guys that have over $3,000 in their AR15, and then when it's time to go to the range, they don't even have 100 rounds on hand. Dude, I've got over XXXXX (and no that's not a type-o) of .223 ammo on hand....why because I shoot a lot and ammo is much like the stock market (constantly going up and down), sometimes it's plentiful and cheap, other times it's hard to find and expensive and this cycle is in a constant state of flux. I just picked up 4,000 rounds last month, and I know I'll go through the 4K that I just bought before the summer is over.

I hope that you didn't take anything in this post as a peronsally (none of it was directed at you), I was just venting about the crap that I constantly see on the internet. From time to time ALL of us forget what's important and start to get into the "I've got to keep up with the Jones" mentallity...and sometime's we need friends to put things back into prespective for us, not belittle us, just remind us of what the "Big picture" is, and the real reason that we own firearms and why we shoot.....and that is all that I was trying to do with this little rant. Let me know you thoghts on this email.


Take care and stay safe Brother,
Jeff

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:33:44 PM EDT
Why did you edit all of your posts out of that link?
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 5:15:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Why did you edit all of your posts out of that link?



Some of the "experts" on that thread have no real world experience and some of them use to P.M. and email me asking for advise.

I'm tired of all the "experts", who's experience is based on theory and other people's experience.

I'm in the process of writting an article for the Tactical Response website based on the info I posted on that thread.



Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:44:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Why did you edit all of your posts out of that link?



Some of the "experts" on that thread have no real world experience and some of them use to P.M. and email me asking for advise.

I'm tired of all the "experts", who's experience is based on theory and other people's experience.

I'm in the process of writting an article for the Tactical Response website based on the info I posted on that thread.







Cool. I will look forward to reading it.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:59:32 PM EDT
Tagged for all the great info in this thread, and for future reference.

I would love to attend but with limited funds and time with two small kids, I am afraid it will have to wait.

I wonder if it would be possible to come down for a few minutes and just see what it is all about?

TIA

Seydou
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:58:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Seydou:
Tagged for all the great info in this thread, and for future reference.

I would love to attend but with limited funds and time with two small kids, I am afraid it will have to wait.

I wonder if it would be possible to come down for a few minutes and just see what it is all about?

TIA

Seydou



You are welcome to come out and watch, but won't be able to get into the range unless you are a member (locked gate)

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 9:47:55 AM EDT
IMPORTANT INFO, EVERYONE PLEASE READ!!!!!!

-Range Fee's (non-members) / Membership Cards (PWSA members)


MEMBERS of the Pueblo West Sportsman Association:

Please bring your RED MEMBERSHIP CARD with you to class. I will have a class roster that everyone will have to sign in on. Due to prior problems I am required to see your 2005 PWSA membership card or collect a $50 range fee from you. If you don't have your PWSA membership card on the first day of class you will be requred to pay the $50 range fee. NO EXCEPTIONS

NON-MEMBERS of the PWSA:

If you are not a member of the Pueblo West Sportsman Association range, I have to collect a $50 range fee from you on the first day of class. If you have paid for the class vai credit card, Tactical Response Inc has only charged your credit card the $300 for the course, I have the responsibility of collecting the $50 range fee that I have to give directly to the President of the Pueblo West Sportsman Association. The range fee will be collected at the beginning of class during student sign in. I will only be accepting PERSONAL CHECKS and MONEY ORDERS made out to the Pueblo West Sportsman Association for the $50 range fee. (CASH AND CREDIT CARDS WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED AS PAYMENT FOR THE $50 RANGE FEE)


-ACCESS TO THE RANGE

Non-Members of the PWSA please gather at the front gate (in a group) and wait for a PWSA member that is attending the Tactical Pistol Course to let you into the range. DO NOT TRY TO FOLLOW OTHER PWSA MEMBERS THAT ARE NOT PART OF THE CLASS INTO THE RANGE!!! Once inside the gate take the road to the right and go directly to Range #2 (second range from the right). Please do not go to the other ranges un-escorted, PWSA has a strict policy that all non-members must be escorted by a member at all times.

Remember this is a private range that is kind enough to let us use their facilities for this class. Please respect other members of the range, remember we are guests of the PWSA (if there is a problem please let me know so I can get the problem resolved). The only way I can keep hosting courses at the PWSA is if we have a good working relationship with the membership / board of the range.

PWSA MEMBERS: Please let students in the front gate and direct them to range #2. If someone would please man the front gate until all our students are in (as we have done it in the past) it would be greatly appriciated.



-LUNCH / START TIME

Please bring your lunch both days, we will break for lunch, but there will not be enough time to leave the range to go an get lunch at a fast food resturant.

We will start class at 9am on both Saturday and Sunday, please be on time.

We will have to pick up all trash and brass at the end of each day of shooting.



Thanks for your help,
Jeff




Gear list, directions to the range, and motel info listed below:



-Gear List Tactical Rifle:


- One (1) open mind

- Bring a lunch to the range both days

- 1000 rounds rifle and 250 rounds pistol ammo All ammo MUST be factory loaded!

- Tactical sling (required)

- Strongside belt holster

- Eye and ear protection (muffs recommended)

- Sturdy gun belt

- Minimum of three magazines for each weapon

- Magazine pouch for each

- Raingear (We shoot rain or shine)

- Hat and sunblock

- Knee and elbow pads (optional)

- Drinking water (Camelback stronglyrecommended)

- Bug Spray

- Pen and paper



-Motels in Pueblo West (10 minute driving time to the range)

-Best Western Inn Pueblo West (719) 547-2111
-Comfort Inn of Pueblo West (719) 547-9400
If you stay at one of these motels see special directions (read short cut) to the range below


-Motels in the city of Pueblo (30 to 40 minutes driving time to the range)

-Comfort Inn (719) 542-6868
-Super 8 Motel (719) 545-4104
-Days Inn (719) 543-8031
-Econo Lodge (719) 542-9933
-Hampton Inn (719) 544-4700
-Holiday Inn (719) 543-8050
-La Quinta Inn (719) 542-3500


Directions:

-From the city of Pueblo

-Exit I-25 at the Highway 50 West exit (also know as US 50) and head WEST bound (toward Pueblo West)

-Hwy 50 West to Purcell (first traffic light in Pueblo West)

-Turn Right (North) onto Purcell and travel 2.6 miles to Platteville Rd.

-Turn Left (West) onto Platteville Blvd and travel 1.5 miles to Gantts Fort

-Turn Right (North) onto Gantts Fort and tavel 2.4 miles to Platteville Rd. (Platteville Rd makes a large loop through Pueblo West)

-Turn Left (West) onto Platteville Rd and travel .3 (3/10) mile to Cashmere Ave

-Turn Right on Cashmere ave and take the second road left to the range. There are green / white signs once your reach Cashmere ave directing you to the range


-Coming from Colorado Springs

-South bound on I-25 to Exit #108

-Exit on #108, at the end of the off ramp take a right onto Purcell

-Travel 4.2 miles on Purcell to Platteville Rd (dirt road) and turn right onto Platteville Rd.

-Travel 2.4 miles on Platteville Rd to Cashmire Ave (when Platteville road turns from a dirt road to an asphault road, you have less than a half mile until you are at Cashmire Ave)

-Turn Right on Cashmere ave and take the second road left to the range. There are green / white signs once your reach Cashmere ave directing you to the range


-Coming from the Best Western or Comfort Inn in Pueblo West

-Take McCulloch north of Highway 50 west and follow it until it dead ends into Platteville Rd.

-Turn Left (West) onto Platteville Blvd and travel to Gantts Fort

-Turn Right (North) onto Gantts Fort and tavel 2.4 miles to Platteville Rd. (Platteville Rd makes a large loop through Pueblo West)

-Turn Left (West) onto Platteville Rd and travel .3 (3/10) mile to Cashmere Ave

-Turn Right on Cashmere ave and take the second road left to the range. There are green / white signs once your reach Cashmere ave directing you to the range


If anyone has any questions on directions or lodging feel free to contact me directly at Carpenter0311@msn.com


Semper Fi
Jeff Carpenter



Link Posted: 9/20/2005 3:45:31 PM EDT
Can someone post a review of the course? Wasn't able to make it due to work commitments, but would like to know how the course worked out for future planning.
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 3:59:59 PM EDT
Waiting on the pics from a friend who went. We took a lot of them. I'd be happy to do the review when I get the pics.
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 4:35:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:
Waiting on the pics from a friend who went. We took a lot of them. I'd be happy to do the review when I get the pics.



Pics and review would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Seydou
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 6:44:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:
Waiting on the pics from a friend who went. We took a lot of them. I'd be happy to do the review when I get the pics.



So this is Drake?
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 8:22:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:
Waiting on the pics from a friend who went. We took a lot of them. I'd be happy to do the review when I get the pics.



So this is Drake?



Yep, which fella were you. I really should of asked around who posts here. With the help of Mike's camera, Jeff took a shit load of pics and vids. I'll try to post them ASAP. The vid of the last drill we did, you know, the one with the constant firing for 20 min (or at least it seemed like that) is pretty good.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 7:53:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:
Waiting on the pics from a friend who went. We took a lot of them. I'd be happy to do the review when I get the pics.



So this is Drake?



Yep, which fella were you. I really should of asked around who posts here. With the help of Mike's camera, Jeff took a shit load of pics and vids. I'll try to post them ASAP. The vid of the last drill we did, you know, the one with the constant firing for 20 min (or at least it seemed like that) is pretty good.



Randy here. I am working on a review too. I don't have too many pics though. I need to get e-mail some guys and get them.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 7:36:55 AM EDT
Hey Guys,


Zak_Smith did an awesome review with pics of this course and the Force on Force class on the Tactics and Training section in the General section of this board.



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