Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 1/6/2012 10:17:49 AM EST
Just checking - does anyone know whether Surefire muzzle breaks are NY legal. They are defined as muzzle breaks and not flash hiders?

http://www.surefire.com/muzzlebrakeadapter
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 10:34:35 AM EST
I know for a fact they are classified as muzzle breaks. But they are also able so accept a suppressor, which is where it gets kinda fuzzy I guess. Someone else will need to chime in with better info regarding that.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 10:55:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 10:56:58 AM EST by Addicted2Fish]
They're perfectly fine. Accepting a suppressor is not an evil feature in NY for rifles. Just make sure that you have it permanently attached to the end of your barrel otherwise the threads underneath it count as an evil feature because THAT can accept a flash hider, which the penal code DOES define as a problem.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 11:29:53 AM EST
Pin welded muzzle device becomes the barrel. If the MD has threads then the barrel is still threaded thus illegal.

Also the idea of the ban on threaded barrels was to prevent installation of suppressors. It is only a new thing that suppressors go over muzzle devices.

Pass on threaded muzzle brakes, be smart
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 1:36:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 1:43:19 PM EST by Addicted2Fish]
Surefire muzzle brakes aren't threaded.

And the info on threaded brakes is bogus. Sure it's part of the barrel, but the law explicitly reads "threaded to accept FLASH HIDER". Intent means nothing. If anything, the "intent" of the AWB was to ban as many non-Fudd semi auto rifles as they possibly could by naming features of EBR's in hopes that they could ban more than they could list one by one by name. Flash hider means flash hider no more no less, and a sound suppressor is not a flash hider nor is a flash hider a sound suppressor. They can cry about it all they want but the anti gun nazis can choke on a dick.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 2:08:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 2:10:44 PM EST by cas]
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Surefire muzzle brakes aren't threaded.

Flash hider means flash hider no more no less



Good luck telling the state and the judge what things mean. You can wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which one fills up first.


Some of the Surefire's are threaded, a sound suppressor is the best flash suppressor made.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:08:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 3:12:31 PM EST by Addicted2Fish]
Originally Posted By cas:
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Surefire muzzle brakes aren't threaded.

Flash hider means flash hider no more no less



Good luck telling the state and the judge what things mean. You can wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which one fills up first.


Some of the Surefire's are threaded, a sound suppressor is the best flash suppressor made.


Legally established definitions since 1994 and well before that. I don't have to tell them anything, they already know and can't pretend that they don't. Legally defined a flash hider is a totally different thing than a sound suppressor and the two are NOT interchangeable.

But if you're that freaked out about it then use a Monster Man Grip or a kydex fin and then you're down to zero features so if they want to be dicks about it you're still in the clear. Main thing is don't do anything stupid to attract attention to yourself in the first place so then nobody's looking at your rifle anyway.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:58:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Originally Posted By cas:
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Surefire muzzle brakes aren't threaded.

Flash hider means flash hider no more no less



Good luck telling the state and the judge what things mean. You can wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which one fills up first.


Some of the Surefire's are threaded, a sound suppressor is the best flash suppressor made.


Legally established definitions since 1994 and well before that. I don't have to tell them anything, they already know and can't pretend that they don't. Legally defined a flash hider is a totally different thing than a sound suppressor and the two are NOT interchangeable.

But if you're that freaked out about it then use a Monster Man Grip or a kydex fin and then you're down to zero features so if they want to be dicks about it you're still in the clear. Main thing is don't do anything stupid to attract attention to yourself in the first place so then nobody's looking at your rifle anyway.


What "legally established definition" are you using? Last time I checked, a flash suppressor was a device that suppresses muzzle flash. A sound suppressor very effectively suppresses muzzle flash.

Link Posted: 1/6/2012 4:13:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Originally Posted By cas:
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Surefire muzzle brakes aren't threaded.

Flash hider means flash hider no more no less



Good luck telling the state and the judge what things mean. You can wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which one fills up first.


Some of the Surefire's are threaded, a sound suppressor is the best flash suppressor made.


Legally established definitions since 1994 and well before that. I don't have to tell them anything, they already know and can't pretend that they don't. Legally defined a flash hider is a totally different thing than a sound suppressor and the two are NOT interchangeable.

But if you're that freaked out about it then use a Monster Man Grip or a kydex fin and then you're down to zero features so if they want to be dicks about it you're still in the clear. Main thing is don't do anything stupid to attract attention to yourself in the first place so then nobody's looking at your rifle anyway.


What "legally established definition" are you using? Last time I checked, a flash suppressor was a device that suppresses muzzle flash. A sound suppressor very effectively suppresses muzzle flash.

The ATF has very precise definitions of what a sound suppressor is and what a flash suppressor is––the latter does not have a $200 tax and Form 1 or 4 attached to it. They have issued official opinions on what a muzzle brake is versus what a flash suppressor is––the two are readily distinguishable from each other and not interchangeable definitions.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 4:39:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Originally Posted By cas:
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Surefire muzzle brakes aren't threaded.

Flash hider means flash hider no more no less



Good luck telling the state and the judge what things mean. You can wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which one fills up first.


Some of the Surefire's are threaded, a sound suppressor is the best flash suppressor made.


Legally established definitions since 1994 and well before that. I don't have to tell them anything, they already know and can't pretend that they don't. Legally defined a flash hider is a totally different thing than a sound suppressor and the two are NOT interchangeable.

But if you're that freaked out about it then use a Monster Man Grip or a kydex fin and then you're down to zero features so if they want to be dicks about it you're still in the clear. Main thing is don't do anything stupid to attract attention to yourself in the first place so then nobody's looking at your rifle anyway.


What "legally established definition" are you using? Last time I checked, a flash suppressor was a device that suppresses muzzle flash. A sound suppressor very effectively suppresses muzzle flash.

The ATF has very precise definitions of what a sound suppressor is and what a flash suppressor is––the latter does not have a $200 tax and Form 1 or 4 attached to it. They have issued official opinions on what a muzzle brake is versus what a flash suppressor is––the two are readily distinguishable from each other and not interchangeable definitions.


How do you guarantee that nobody in the world will ever create a flash hider that threads onto your muzzle brake? Someone hacks the end off a fake can or sound suppressor and now you're facing a felony.

Link Posted: 1/6/2012 4:55:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Originally Posted By cas:
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Surefire muzzle brakes aren't threaded.

Flash hider means flash hider no more no less



Good luck telling the state and the judge what things mean. You can wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which one fills up first.


Some of the Surefire's are threaded, a sound suppressor is the best flash suppressor made.


Legally established definitions since 1994 and well before that. I don't have to tell them anything, they already know and can't pretend that they don't. Legally defined a flash hider is a totally different thing than a sound suppressor and the two are NOT interchangeable.

But if you're that freaked out about it then use a Monster Man Grip or a kydex fin and then you're down to zero features so if they want to be dicks about it you're still in the clear. Main thing is don't do anything stupid to attract attention to yourself in the first place so then nobody's looking at your rifle anyway.


What "legally established definition" are you using? Last time I checked, a flash suppressor was a device that suppresses muzzle flash. A sound suppressor very effectively suppresses muzzle flash.

The ATF has very precise definitions of what a sound suppressor is and what a flash suppressor is––the latter does not have a $200 tax and Form 1 or 4 attached to it. They have issued official opinions on what a muzzle brake is versus what a flash suppressor is––the two are readily distinguishable from each other and not interchangeable definitions.


How do you guarantee that nobody in the world will ever create a flash hider that threads onto your muzzle brake? Someone hacks the end off a fake can or sound suppressor and now you're facing a felony.

In that absurd remote contingency you just add on the kydex fin to your existing pistol grip or switch it out for a Monster Man Grip, then you're good to go. Meanwhile, the chicken littles in this group/state need to get over the absurd level of Battered Gun Owner Syndrome.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 5:06:01 PM EST
The exact wording is "threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor"

An argument can be made that:

1. If the threads were originally designed to accommodate a sound suppressor, their intended purpose doesn't suddenly change if someone designs a flash suppressor to accommodate these threads after the fact
2. A threaded muzzle device is not the same as threaded barrel

Now, who want to be the test case?
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 6:05:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 6:10:37 PM EST by fnub315]
Ibtl?.......













Link Posted: 1/7/2012 3:14:12 AM EST
This whole argument is silly.

If you have a AR15 with a shaved off bayonet lug but you put one of those silly picatinny rail bayonet lugs the rifle still has a lug, thus illegal.

If you have a pin and welded muzzle brake over the threads that is fine, well if you have threads on the brake that defeats the purpose of the pin and weld because guess what people, the threads are still there.

One last thought, this forum is about staying legal and obeying the law, to flaunt the idea that hey you are not going to get caught go right ahead is irresponsible at the least, stay legal and stay safe. As much as I know this law is stupid the simple fact is that it is the law and as responsible firearm owners in a state that wants to put us in jail we must take the higher ground and keep our guns in compliance least we be as immoral as the scumbags committing crimes on the streets.
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 3:41:12 AM EST
How about this, I'll ask a judge for his definition of the law and ATF definitions
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 4:19:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By Seph:
How about this, I'll ask a judge for his definition of the law and ATF definitions


The ATF has no governance over the NYS AWB other than the fact that we can look to their opinions on issues such as these for GUIDANCE. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the Surefire muzzle brake or the AAC one that has exposed threads, I would stay away from it for the reasons stated above by others. It's far too easy for some hard charging ADA to make a case that you have an "assault rifle with a threaded barrel, ready to mount a silencer" on it. It's a possibility that you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 4:51:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By Adirondack47:
Originally Posted By Seph:
How about this, I'll ask a judge for his definition of the law and ATF definitions


The ATF has no governance over the NYS AWB other than the fact that we can look to their opinions on issues such as these for GUIDANCE. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the Surefire muzzle brake or the AAC one that has exposed threads, I would stay away from it for the reasons stated above by others. It's far too easy for some hard charging ADA to make a case that you have an "assault rifle with a threaded barrel, ready to mount a silencer" on it. It's a possibility that you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.


Shall I ask the DA too then?

Link Posted: 1/7/2012 5:11:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By Seph:
Originally Posted By Adirondack47:
Originally Posted By Seph:
How about this, I'll ask a judge for his definition of the law and ATF definitions


The ATF has no governance over the NYS AWB other than the fact that we can look to their opinions on issues such as these for GUIDANCE. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the Surefire muzzle brake or the AAC one that has exposed threads, I would stay away from it for the reasons stated above by others. It's far too easy for some hard charging ADA to make a case that you have an "assault rifle with a threaded barrel, ready to mount a silencer" on it. It's a possibility that you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.


Shall I ask the DA too then?



Voluntarily bringing the issue to light for no other reason than to prove a point would be incredibly foolish in my opinion. But alas, youre free to do as you please.

I have no idea if these people you mention are friends of your's (in an un-official capacity) where you might see them at a party or something and ask them about if off of the record but I certainly wouldnt be marching into the county office building to request a meeting and demand clarification. While it might not seem so from where youre standing now, Its a slippery slope that could potentially lead to attention on the topic that you (or we as gun owners) dont want.

Link Posted: 1/7/2012 5:13:05 AM EST
just a personal opinion but with the 223 generating such little recoil to begin with the simple solution is a plain crowned muzzle with no device- done - no questions no ambiguity.
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 7:10:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2012 7:10:39 AM EST by GTwannabe]
Originally Posted By Seph:
Originally Posted By Adirondack47:
Originally Posted By Seph:
How about this, I'll ask a judge for his definition of the law and ATF definitions


The ATF has no governance over the NYS AWB other than the fact that we can look to their opinions on issues such as these for GUIDANCE. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the Surefire muzzle brake or the AAC one that has exposed threads, I would stay away from it for the reasons stated above by others. It's far too easy for some hard charging ADA to make a case that you have an "assault rifle with a threaded barrel, ready to mount a silencer" on it. It's a possibility that you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.


Shall I ask the DA too then?



No need. All the DA has to do is call the White Plains BATF office and request a field agent to provide expert witness for the state's case.
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 2:45:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
Originally Posted By Seph:
Originally Posted By Adirondack47:
Originally Posted By Seph:
How about this, I'll ask a judge for his definition of the law and ATF definitions


The ATF has no governance over the NYS AWB other than the fact that we can look to their opinions on issues such as these for GUIDANCE. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the Surefire muzzle brake or the AAC one that has exposed threads, I would stay away from it for the reasons stated above by others. It's far too easy for some hard charging ADA to make a case that you have an "assault rifle with a threaded barrel, ready to mount a silencer" on it. It's a possibility that you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.


Shall I ask the DA too then?



No need. All the DA has to do is call the White Plains BATF office and request a field agent to provide expert witness for the state's case.


AGAIN, the ATF has NO governance over the NYS AWB. Their definitions and the lack thereof in the NYS Penal code do not have to coincide. NY quantifies a "gravity knife" as one that opens with "centrifugal force", thus making any standard knife that can be flicked open illegal. Personally, i wouldn't use a suppressor mount as my muzzle brake. you do what you want, but i wouldn't.


to add, i'm one of the "if they're looking at your guns, you're already in enough shit" people. Don't go asking anyone anything, just mind your own fucking business.
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 5:40:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By shiky:
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
Originally Posted By Seph:
Originally Posted By Adirondack47:
Originally Posted By Seph:
How about this, I'll ask a judge for his definition of the law and ATF definitions


The ATF has no governance over the NYS AWB other than the fact that we can look to their opinions on issues such as these for GUIDANCE. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the Surefire muzzle brake or the AAC one that has exposed threads, I would stay away from it for the reasons stated above by others. It's far too easy for some hard charging ADA to make a case that you have an "assault rifle with a threaded barrel, ready to mount a silencer" on it. It's a possibility that you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.


Shall I ask the DA too then?



No need. All the DA has to do is call the White Plains BATF office and request a field agent to provide expert witness for the state's case.


AGAIN, the ATF has NO governance over the NYS AWB. Their definitions and the lack thereof in the NYS Penal code do not have to coincide. NY quantifies a "gravity knife" as one that opens with "centrifugal force", thus making any standard knife that can be flicked open illegal. Personally, i wouldn't use a suppressor mount as my muzzle brake. you do what you want, but i wouldn't.


to add, i'm one of the "if they're looking at your guns, you're already in enough shit" people. Don't go asking anyone anything, just mind your own fucking business.


I just find it some what humorous that when someone asks a question about the legality of an item in this forum and all they really get is a set of non-answers. Then when someone offers to get them an answer both on the record and off (mainly off), people think that simply asking the question (to those that can actually give you a qualified answer) will spark some flurry of anti-gun legislation that will appear over night.
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 10:32:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By Seph:
Originally Posted By shiky:
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
Originally Posted By Seph:
Originally Posted By Adirondack47:
Originally Posted By Seph:
How about this, I'll ask a judge for his definition of the law and ATF definitions


The ATF has no governance over the NYS AWB other than the fact that we can look to their opinions on issues such as these for GUIDANCE. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the Surefire muzzle brake or the AAC one that has exposed threads, I would stay away from it for the reasons stated above by others. It's far too easy for some hard charging ADA to make a case that you have an "assault rifle with a threaded barrel, ready to mount a silencer" on it. It's a possibility that you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.


Shall I ask the DA too then?



No need. All the DA has to do is call the White Plains BATF office and request a field agent to provide expert witness for the state's case.


AGAIN, the ATF has NO governance over the NYS AWB. Their definitions and the lack thereof in the NYS Penal code do not have to coincide. NY quantifies a "gravity knife" as one that opens with "centrifugal force", thus making any standard knife that can be flicked open illegal. Personally, i wouldn't use a suppressor mount as my muzzle brake. you do what you want, but i wouldn't.


to add, i'm one of the "if they're looking at your guns, you're already in enough shit" people. Don't go asking anyone anything, just mind your own fucking business.


I just find it some what humorous that when someone asks a question about the legality of an item in this forum and all they really get is a set of non-answers. Then when someone offers to get them an answer both on the record and off (mainly off), people think that simply asking the question (to those that can actually give you a qualified answer) will spark some flurry of anti-gun legislation that will appear over night.


You can laugh all you want but the fact of the matter is that the LAW does not GIVE definitions as to the legality of items like this. there is only ONE unit in all of new york state that is capable of giving OPINIONS on legality, and they don't do so often. One of their lot is a member here, and he'll tell you the same thing we're telling you.
Link Posted: 1/8/2012 3:36:19 AM EST
OK so we have a mixed bag of opinions. It looks like I'm going to go with a JP break then.
Link Posted: 1/8/2012 4:00:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By shiky:
Originally Posted By Seph:
Originally Posted By shiky:
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
Originally Posted By Seph:
Originally Posted By Adirondack47:
Originally Posted By Seph:
How about this, I'll ask a judge for his definition of the law and ATF definitions


The ATF has no governance over the NYS AWB other than the fact that we can look to their opinions on issues such as these for GUIDANCE. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the Surefire muzzle brake or the AAC one that has exposed threads, I would stay away from it for the reasons stated above by others. It's far too easy for some hard charging ADA to make a case that you have an "assault rifle with a threaded barrel, ready to mount a silencer" on it. It's a possibility that you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.


Shall I ask the DA too then?



No need. All the DA has to do is call the White Plains BATF office and request a field agent to provide expert witness for the state's case.


AGAIN, the ATF has NO governance over the NYS AWB. Their definitions and the lack thereof in the NYS Penal code do not have to coincide. NY quantifies a "gravity knife" as one that opens with "centrifugal force", thus making any standard knife that can be flicked open illegal. Personally, i wouldn't use a suppressor mount as my muzzle brake. you do what you want, but i wouldn't.


to add, i'm one of the "if they're looking at your guns, you're already in enough shit" people. Don't go asking anyone anything, just mind your own fucking business.


I just find it some what humorous that when someone asks a question about the legality of an item in this forum and all they really get is a set of non-answers. Then when someone offers to get them an answer both on the record and off (mainly off), people think that simply asking the question (to those that can actually give you a qualified answer) will spark some flurry of anti-gun legislation that will appear over night.


You can laugh all you want but the fact of the matter is that the LAW does not GIVE definitions as to the legality of items like this. there is only ONE unit in all of new york state that is capable of giving OPINIONS on legality, and they don't do so often. One of their lot is a member here, and he'll tell you the same thing we're telling you.


I imagine you are referring to the NYSP GIU, that is who we have contacted before in the past about the legality of certain items and they have always furnished us with a direct and satisfactory answer to our questions.
Link Posted: 1/8/2012 4:59:06 AM EST
It would be neat to get a definitive answer on this.
Link Posted: 1/8/2012 5:23:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By sititunga:
It would be neat to get a definitive answer on this.


Is their one in particular you want this applied to or just in general?
Link Posted: 1/8/2012 6:07:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/8/2012 8:54:30 AM EST by sititunga]
Originally Posted By Seph:
Originally Posted By sititunga:
It would be neat to get a definitive answer on this.


Is their one in particular you want this applied to or just in general?


I guess in general, as they all have the same function.

While the breaks will only accept Surefire suppressors, we cannot buy suppressors in NY (so the ability for the device to be able to accept a Surefire suppressor is a mute point IMO), and I guess as long as the device is pinned and welded to the barrel so that it can't be removed would be my argument.

Link Posted: 1/8/2012 8:34:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/8/2012 8:37:13 AM EST by Addicted2Fish]
While true that you can't have a suppressor in NY, there's no point in allowing some of the anti gun twerps in this state to screw us out of being able to enjoy them when visiting other states. I am not their property so they WILL NOT treat me as if they own me.
Link Posted: 1/8/2012 8:36:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/8/2012 8:53:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/8/2012 8:53:55 AM EST by sititunga]
So what's the consensus? To buy, or not to buy?
Link Posted: 1/8/2012 9:08:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/8/2012 9:12:14 AM EST by Addicted2Fish]
Buy it 100% for sure if it's not threaded. 0.00% problems with that. People here are iffy and divided on threaded ones, largely because of BGOS. Don't let the bastards––in this case Nervous Nellies and Debbie Downers––get you down.
Link Posted: 1/8/2012 10:03:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Buy it 100% for sure if it's not threaded. 0.00% problems with that. People here are iffy and divided on threaded ones, largely because of BGOS. Don't let the bastards––in this case Nervous Nellies and Debbie Downers––get you down.




Owe you cold one Fish

Top Top