I have applied for a permit to purchase.

I have applied for one probably 5 times now.  The first 3 were no issue.  Time # 4 in a nutshell I knew the law on how long it was legally required to take (and they always took as long as possible) and stopped by at maximum + 1 on my way home from work and asked for permit.  They asked if I had been called telling me it was ready. I stated no, they stated 'go away, it isn't ready' I stood my ground and stated they were breaking the law.

After 30 minutes they gave me permit.

My permit expired two months ago.  Saturday I get a mailing from Cabela's coupon for members good for $100 off if you spend $500+ Humm, cabela's gun prices suddenly become reasonable!  Oh no! need permit!  Sale ends 15th.  I go in and ask if they can hurry it along due to coupon.  They say 'no'  Oh well..



Today I have a message on my machine stating my permit is ready but I need to bring in Driver's License PLUS a Passport or Birth Certificate.

I am going to print out these pages instead.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=624.7131

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=624.713#stat.624.713

I am going to highlight


Subdivision 1.Information. Any person may apply for a transferee permit by providing the following information in writing to the chief of police

(items 1- 4 highlighting only the number)

Subd. 4.Grounds for disqualification. A determination by the chief of police or sheriff that the applicant is prohibited by section 624.713 from possessing a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon shall be the only basis for refusal to grant a transferee permit.

Subd. 5.Granting of permits. The chief of police or sheriff shall issue a transferee permit or deny the application within seven days of application for the permit. The chief of police or sheriff shall provide an applicant with written notification of a denial and the specific reason for the denial. The permits and their renewal shall be granted free of charge.

Subd. 12.Local regulation. This section shall be construed to supersede municipal or county regulation of the issuance of transferee permits.


Wish me luck.  I am not the best public speaker AND generally when you push an issue with the police you get 7 cops to all come and stare at you and puff up and try to get you to submit.  Plus basic human nature, peer pressure is a real thing.

BUT if ST. A PD is able to keep on adding additional extra-legal hurdles that to me is unacceptable.

Somebody needs to talk to the State AG.  Can't have them local police breaking the law.

bring a voice recorder, better yet a small camcorder. dont stand down but be polite and firm.  Wish ya well

am I missing the part where the law says they cant require 2 forms of ID or that you only need to supply 1 form of ID to pick it up?

Personally, I wouldn't fight that battle, because all they're trying to do is make sure that you're not some illegal alien stealing your identity. They're not trying to keep you from getting your permit, they're just trying to make sure that it's actually you that picks it up. Their heart's in the right place. I'd be more annoyed if they were running a seat belt sting at a freeway on-ramp.

If you dont look like an illegal alien then you should be offended.  This crap of political correctness has got way out of hand.  After getting out of the service and moving back to the very small town in southern MN where I grew up I had to get my birth certificate and serveral forms of ID just to open up a new bank account at a bank I had banked at before leaving to go overseas.  Despite several people knowing me that worked in the bank including one relative they still made me go to the courthouse to buy a copy of my birth certificate.  I was told later by the relative banker that it was a new blanket policy for all, but the reason was due to the bank having to give loans(by Fed law under fanny mac and freddie mae I suspect) to a certain people that came from south of the border that would skip town with the loan loot when payment due day came.  So we must all pay and pretend everyone equally offends and commits crime, nice, just like the source of most innercity gun violence and why we have so many gun laws due another sacred people.  The worst approach in dealing with a dictatorial government is to sheepishly cower away like a effeminate male.

No!  What is it about cops thinking they can be the biggest lawbreakers of all?  "Heroes" indeed!

no, what they are doing is trying to be as difficult as possible because they disagree with handgun ownership.

over the years I have gotten 5+ permits from them.  They like to go over the maximum time too...and then still try and tell you they cannot give the permit.

Also, I would have loved to use a cabela's coupon for $100 off a $500 purchase, and asked them if they could rush it WHILE SHOWING MY PERMIT THAT EXPIRED IN AUGUST...ISSUED BY THEM and they said no, the were going to take the maximum time allowed.

Besides, the WHOLE PURPOSE OF THE 6 DAYS OF BACKGROUND CHECKS IS TO FIND OUT WHO A AM...and that should uncover any issues.

You know, if they said 'we can speed this up if you have a birth certificate or passport' that would be different.

yes, the part that says that state law supersedes local ordinances, and that state law has a very short list of what written information is given to them.

you will find no part of the law that specifically states they CANNOT demand 2 forms of ID.

you will also find no part of the law that specifically states they CANNOT demand a urine test, field sobriety test, stool sample, blood test, math test, accuracy test, or demand that you bring in your gun safe for inspection.

See, that isn't how the laws work.

For people, unless it is explicitly OUTLAWED it is legal.  For governments, unless a power is specifically GRANTED then they don't have it.

Have you asked why it takes longer than the required time? I realize that the law states they have a maximum amount of time but it might just be due to staffing levels rather than wanting to prevent people from getting their permits. This PD is not the only department that takes longer than the required time. Columbia Heights is the same way. It is not because they are trying to circumvent the law it is because they have someone part time in the office doing the background checks. When the laws were passed giving them a time limit, it didn't give them any extra money to make sure they were staffed properly to handle this. I don't know about you but I think St. Anthony is a pretty nice place and fairly crime free. Any time I've ever had a need or reason to interact with the police there it has been extremely pleasant. Their jurisdiction is rather large and drawn out as well. I'm not stating that this is the reason but if i had to choose between hiring an administrative assistant to process permits or hire an officer that decision would be an extremely easy one.

I applaud you for you willingness to make sure the government is held accountable but I think your energy could be directed in a more productive manner.

Now about the coupon, you don't need to have a permit to purchase to put money down on a gun at Cabelas. If you put $500 down on that gun with your card you will get your $100 off.  I did this with my wife's P30.

My friend who works at Cabelas said that sometimes they will honor these deals after they expire. One day after sounds reasonable to me. You might want to at least call and ask.

Get a carry permit, then you only have to deal with them every 5 years.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Yeah I was putting off taking that silly class for my carry permit until I realized there was a side benefit of not having to deal with the local PD for a purchase permit every year.

here's the deal...if you don't have the staff levels to do it, you call their name into NICS and sign it.  

Second, how often will that excuse work for YOU when you are breaking the law.  Get caught doing 75 in a 55, will the 'but I don't have time to obey the law' work to get you out of a ticket?

Look, I am not talking about getting a lawyer and suing them, I am talking about going over there and standing up for my rights and make them follow the law.

In what other areas is it acceptable for the police or government to make up extra restrictions?  What happens if you go to the voting booth this November and the person at the front desk says 'Okay, we need to see your passport too'  ?

Nope, if they cannot get it done it time, that doesn't meant they get to wait again another week, that means they sign off on what they have done.  Besides, how many states get along JUST fine without any stupid permit-to-purchase process.  Obviously, the whole thing is a farce at this point.  Maybe...MAYBE it did a small amount of good before NICS instant checks...but I doubt it.

It's not a government accountability issue. It is the fact that they are violating the law of the land and getting away with it. What's worse is people like you standing up for them claiming it's too hard for the people charged with enforcing the law to actually follow it themselves.

1.  Call, write, email or whatever the chief of police and tell him the problem with what they are doing
2.  Call, write, email your city council person and tell him/her what they are doing
3.  Get a carry permit and deal with the county
4.  Don't assume it is the "cops".  I have dealt with the same BS, being a cop and all, and it was a "clerk" at the city where I get my permit to purchase that decided they wanted more stuff from me.

Agreed on all counts.

In theory, we shouldn't even need a permit to purchase at all, PERIOD, since it is written on the Constitution that our right to keep and bear arms Shall Not Be Infringed.   Be that as it may, is it such a huge deal to show two forms of ID to prove who you are?  You would have to do the same thing to fill out an I9 for an employer.  Personally, I'd go and get your purchase permit (or get a carry permit) by showing them your 2 forms of ID and THEN make a stink about it.  That way at least you can buy your firearms without further delay.

Seriously?

This issue really should be the last one on the list of things to complain about is all I'm saying. All I was doing in my last post was trying to offer another viewpoint into the situation. I never said what they were doing wasn't "violating the law of the land" but I personally would rank the violation of this law right up there with not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign.  You do come to a complete stop every time right? You never speed? Never break any laws?

EDIT
Comment deleted as it was based on a misreading of the quotation and misjudging of its context.  Curse these early morning ARFCOM postings.

Yup!

Do it via email or certified letter. CC all of the city council and mayor.

The permit itself is the problem. It's nothing more than a defacto waiting period. I'll take that side of the argument all day long. The permit has been issued, it just needs to be picked up. I still think what is happening with the "bring two forms of ID to pick it up" is nothing more than wanting to be certain that the person picking the permit up is, in fact, Akodo Arfcommer, and not some ineligible con pretending to be Akodo Arfcommer.





Kick their ass all week about the time to issue, but I still don't think this pick-up thing is unreasonable.

 

[....] When the laws were passed giving them a time limit, it didn't give them any extra money to make sure they were staffed properly to handle this.[...][/quote]

Doesn't the department get to keep part of the permit fee to offset those costs?  

My Sheriff's office had my permit renewal ready for me in 5 business days.  It takes them as long as it takes the staff to punch in your name/address to run the back ground check.  The only thing that takes "time" is the response from the department of health to look you up and see if you are mental or not.  I'm not sure how "automated" this process is, it's probably a FAX since they need your signature to release that info, but it doesn't take long either.

You should already have a SSN card and birth certificate anyways.  Haven't you ever been hired?  You need those on your first day of employment.

Well I don't have the birth certificate in easy access.  I only give out my SSN to places that need it because they will be paying IN.

BUT it is also the principle of the thing.  

I was there today and they say I have to PROVE I am not an illegal alien.  I said 'fine give me the denial letter stating you have come to the determination I am an illegal alien'  

What's next? them asking me to take a drug test to PROVE I don't have a drug problem?

Chief wasn't in, I'll be in to see him tomorrow hopefully.

p.s. They tried to tell me that the law 'transferree permit' was not the same as a 'permit to purchase'   I told them it was the same thing.

yea, except a fake birth certificate would be pretty easy to photoshop, and millions of illegal aliens have gotten fake SSN cards,  and they do have my driver's license number and can pull up my DL photo and all that stuff.

If they really wanted to make sure I was who I said I was they'd demand fingerprints (which I'd refuse)

Finally, I dislike being told I am the one who has to PROVE to them I am not an illegal alien.  What's next? The office cites the fact that you cannot own firearms if "is an unlawful user of any controlled substance" and then hand you a cup to pee into?

Right, it is not all the cops.  It is the chief and apparently the clerks

So riddle me this.  If they want you to prove you are not an illegal alien, why would they wait until you picked up the permit instead of requiring you prove it before they go through the work of doing a background check on you?  

Also, do you know any other St. Anthony residents that have permits to purchase? (the reason I ask, is to help determine if their practice is a generic one applied to everyone or just you).  I was thinking about this and was curious if something is coming up in the background check.  When LE runs stuff we often get similar names/DOB's/etc...  Without knowing your name, it may be a case where something is turning up when they start running you  and they are trying to confirm you are who you say you are, vs. the guy that is turning up in the background.  Or, maybe the chief is a Jim Frank wannabe and is doing this as his form of protest.

So there you sit...unable to make any more firearm purchases.  You sure showed them!!!

There has to be some one higher on the food chain that can get this straightened out. It's almost looks like it's gotten to be a ridiculous pissing match that the chief or one of his staff thinks they can win. Does anyone think a polite call to the city attorney's office would get them to review the statute and explain it to the chief and get it cleared up. Another option might be to have them mail it to you. My city does that some times.

It's St Anthony. It is the worst department I have ever dealt with. I live right on the border in Minneapolis, I was an officer with Mpls for 9 years and every time I dealt with their "officers" they were pricks. They nailed my sister 7 blocks in the Mpls border and threatened to shoot her 6 pound dog that was inthe car, The screwup had to produce their own field tape. Listening to in in court was obnoxious. They nailed my ex girlfriend when she lived with me 2 years ago. They stopped her going 36 in a 30. Fair enough, she blew one point over on a field huffer. Brought her in towed the car... She blew 3 clean in the house and they had to drop the DUI, the cop was pissed and wrote her up a wreckless driving (almost as nasty on a record) rather than speeding, The dumb fuck wrote the reason on the bottom of the tag. My ex was a state attorney, Dismissed! but she still paid her friend a coupple G's to rep her in court. Plus impound fees. When they kicked her that night they dumped her into the huge unlit parking lot. (this place is several city blocks of parking lot and grass) 3 AM her cell was out of power (they new that) no one around but some teenage fucks lurking.



They did let her call me before they threw her out of the building. I show up to the back side of the building ring the buzzer, no answer, over and over. Flash my badge to the camera pound on the glass nothing for close to 10 minutes. I finally drive all around and found her standing in the cold huge dark parking lot. . That is the biggest bunch of fucks in this state that I have ever met. I realized why in court. The case number on the citation was in the tripple digits. I think 2K something. This was 3/4 of the way through the year. I told the prick after court, (badge was on my belt) no wonder you couldn't get a job in a real city, I reach your case number in the first few days of the year. You are a bored fuck and get off on screwing with girls. Sorry for the rant but I can not stand St Anthony PD.   Have NO doubt it is a POWER TRIP for them to screw with you. Get your carry and fuck them.... Sorry you have to deal with such a bad department bro..

I received my permit to purchase from St Anthony without problem. I don't even know where my birth certificate is, I must have brought in license or my passport. they like to take their time issuing them, but no probs for me.

so a denial letter is on the way stating they have "Determined" I am an illegal alien because they are unable to definitively prove that I am NOT am illegal alien.

They also tried to keep on telling me that the statute for a transferee permit was different than a 'permit to purchase' even though I read the portion of the law that defines transfer.

Don't mean to laugh at your pain but thats funny shit... Get your permit, screw them fucks.



 

I can't figure out if this story is true or not.

Your situation is pretty easy to remedy.

1. get your CCW (which is at a county level and ALOT easier to deal with)
2. provide the identification that they require
3. move
4. don't bother

Please post a follow up on what route you finally took.

If your going to continue to deal with stupid people behind a badge, and you have other course of action, I don't feel sorry for you any more.

Plymouth used to pull kind of a similar bit of nonsense until someone ratted them out. (this is back in 2001)

Anyhow, best of luck with what ever you decide.

I'm sorry, but this is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time...Do you want your purchase permit or are you just looking for something to complain about?  Yeah, dude, it really sucks that you have to provide the local politburo with 2 forms of ID...do you think you can ever recover from such tyranny????


Serious question:  Are you an illegal alien?

I wish my life were so simple and stress free that something like providing a second form of ID was all I had to complain about....but hey, Fight The Power!

Akodo: Are you for or against showing Photo ID in order to vote?

I am pro following the law.  I am anti police chiefs making their own law.

I think any system that is used to determine if a person can own a gun should also be put into use in many other areas...including at the voting booth. (we'd have truly instant checks then I bet)

While I would gladly accept a law asking for photo ID at the voting place, I would be against an individual voting judge deciding to enact his own set of rules about who can vote that has zero basis in law.

I'm violating a personal rule here by posting more than once every few months, but I just read all of this and can't help it.

Now that you have been denied, your only recourse to get your permit is to go to court to appeal the denial.  See section 624.7131, subdivision 8.  That won't be cheap (in fact, it will be vastly more than the money you were trying to save at Cabela's) and it won't be fast.  You could go back and be nice, or hire a lawyer to try that for you, but you may have burned your bridges and they are under no obligation to be nice to you.  You could try to reapply, but hey, they've already determined that you are an illegal alien and therefore can't have a permit to purchase.

Why didn't you just show two forms of ID, or your birth certificate or whatever, then write a polite letter to the chief or the city attorney explaining what happened, outlining the relevant law and asking them to look into their procedure?  That might have had a shot at changing things for others in the future, and you'd have your permit.  

IANAL, but I think once you voluntarily comply with a unlawful regulation you lose your legal standing to fight against it.

I believe his point was that its possible to write the city attorney, city council etc without suing them and racking up legal bills.  If the system can be changed without resorting to litigation that is the best solution.



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Yes, the local Police Department gets to keep 100% of the permit to purchase fee.  100% of $0 is a whopping $0 :)

I thought purchase permits were $20. I have my carry permit, never dicked around w/ purchase permit.