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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/4/2005 7:47:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 7:48:06 PM EDT by tommytrauma]
[rant] Last fall, I had what I thought was a great idea; Why don't we import a high speed instructor to the WI area and start local training? I got in touch with Sully, and we started looking for a place to make it happen. Then Bulletcatcher stepped up to the plate, and viola, the Driftless Rifle club was born. To date, we've ran somewhere around 30 chedderheads through some excellent pistol and carbine training, and plans are in the works for more including tactics 101, precision rifle, medical courses, all sorts of stuff.

The thing is, though, that these are all perishable skills. Going to a two day pistol class and not repeatedly revisiting those skills is like going to the gym twice and not going back. Class gives you basic skills to build on. Either you develop them, or they atrophy into nothing, and you've wasted your time and money.

Bulletcatcher has taken point and ramrodded several alumni shoots, and turnout has been abysmal. BC knows skills need to be reenforced quickly after exposure, so he scheduled a pistol refresher a couple of weeks after the pistol class last July. 3 other alumni showed up. 3. WTF?This is, to put it frankly, bullshit. You guys are cheating yourselves. I use motor skills under stress every shift, and I teach others to do the same. After 17 years, I still practice on a constant basis. Try to intubate a patient under stress, in the dark when you're out of practice; It SUCKS. Thise skills evaporate quickly. Newly learned skills evaporate almost immediately unless they're reenforced quickly and repeatedly. A bunch of you spent time, effort and money to take an excellent handgunning class a couple of months ago. You wanted those skills badly enough to spennd money and spend two days in 95 degree heat to learn them. Sully didn't make you into gunfighters. he gave you the building blocks you need to make yourselves into gunfighters. Don't you want these skills?

We have a great chance to build on this, to form a core group that's serious about developing and expanding skills. We've just gone from crawl to walk. Some of us are gonna take it to the next level. Some of us are going to be left in the dust. Each of us decides which is which.

Some very intersting things are in the works for Driftless. There are a few among us, Stan at the top, who are worknig to make things happen. The current DE alumni are being offered a chance to get in on the ground floor, and sweat equity will pay huge dividends later. Eventually, there will be classes high speed enough to require a basic skills test out to participate.

I know most everybody has access to a public or commercial square range. Not many have access to a range where they can practice dynamic stuff like shooting on the move, from vehicles, from different forms of cover, etc. Soon we'll be adding force on force, structure clearing, all sorts of stuff. Some of us will, anyway. Why aren't the rest of you taking advantage of this??? This is your invitation. We're putting together a group of shooters. We're going to learn to run. You're welcome to join us. [/rant]
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 11:09:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 11:10:12 PM EDT by MisterPX]
Here's my take on it. Get to BC's Sat afternoon about 1. Training done at 4. Kickout next morning. 5 hours drive time for 3 hours go time, not cost effective for me. Also factor in $60 for gas, and from what I've heard, no paramilitary type training( AKA your 6th paragraph). Granted I have a range near me where I can do pretty much anything, so my main purpose of going to BC's is also socializing. When there used to be Sun afternoon/eve kickouts, I'm sure you remember me being there.

Also note that I, for example, work every other weekend, so if an event is going on that weekend, I'm out.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 6:25:05 AM EDT
You're right that a turnout of 3 is terrible, but I can only speak for myself. I just cannot make it out on any given weekend. There are other things that sometimes need to come first (mostly family). Cost is sometimes another factor. $$ just happens to be tight right now, but that should get better soon (I hope). My local range is usually cheaper and easier to practice at (along with dry fire, etc). But I know time spent at the Driftless Range with other Alumni would be even better.

These training sessions are a great idea, but they also exclude my wife. She'd like to come out for a fun shoot, but a training day or weekend is time we spend apart and I like spending time with her. I'd love to see a 'fun shoot' with time for any basic skills practice that those with the training would want to do.

I'm a little put off by some of the advanced topics that Stan plans on doing at the upcoming session. I've had Pistol 1&2 and Carbine 1&2 and I think most of the WI group are at about the same place. But I'm not sure I should be practicing the more advanced partner and communication stuff until I've actually had the classes to learn the skills properly.

I really appreciate what you guys have done to bring high quality training to WI. I hope it continues and that you're not too frustrated when things don't go as planned or maybe as quickly as you'd like. I'll do my best to help out where I can.

I'm going to try and make it up for the 17th, but I'm not positive yet if I'll be free that day.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 7:11:29 AM EDT
Similar situation here.

The tent/grill/stove is ours, but the I've been borrowing the cooler and sleeping bags from my folks. Its been a round trip to Chicago to pick them up, round trip to BC's, and then another round trip to Chicago to return the borrowed items. This ends up to be 11+ hours of driving and about $80 in gas.
I found a good cooler at a rummage sale. Still looking for a decent set of sleeping bags and trying not to give China-Mart the money.
Plus, the wife has to work some saturdays. This coming 17th is one of those days.

School starts back up tomorrow, and that gets to monopolize my schedule. Every so often I can squeeze something in around it.(Like blowing off a day to sit in the balcony at Madison.) Most of the time, I can't. More than once, a season has gone by without me trying to get a deer. Don't even get to go out. School gets too busy, and everything else has to be sidelined.
I helped at Tattoo's and then couldn't go to the party ...... same shit, different day.

I'm probably a no-show for the rest of the year. If the planets line up just right and the moon is waning on the third tuesday of the month, I MIGHT be able to do some local stuff ........ like meet everyone for breakfast and go to a fun show for a couple hours.

There's no need to bait with promises of dividends on sweat equity. If it was doable for me, I'd be there. Matte of fact, there's not much that I'd rather be doing. Responsability keeps getting in the way of my play time, and I'm sick of it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 7:32:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2005 7:36:03 AM EDT by FMD]
I think I can see both perspectives, as someone who made the last shoot, who also had to travel fairly far despite having membership at the not-so-square range at RCL. In true Arfcom fashion, my take on it is “Do both!”

I totally agree with Tommy, re: the need to continue to practice skill sets, but I certainly understand MisterPX, Drawcut, and TJ, re: the cost vs. time training benefit of travel to BulletcatchR’s. That said, I will continue to make every effort to get up to BC’s for Alumni training shoots, for a couple of reasons:

1) BC continues to take classes up in MN (3 or 4 days of training since the pistol class). He is more than willing to share the tips, tricks, and most importantly skills that he’s picked up at the classes he’s taken. This is invaluable knowledge that goes far beyond simple cost. Basically, if I am unable to get to a specific DE class (for any number of reasons), I can count on BC bringing the class to me. By going up to his place to train, I effectively get “Sully by proxy”.

2) By going up to BC’s, I also get access to the Alum that I don’t see on a regular basis; while that has a “social” benefit, more people correcting me = better technique. I rely on every one of the DE Alumni to correct my bad habits and reinforce the good ones. Better technique = less chance of me screwing something up when I need it most: under stress.

3) While RCL allows for any number of options not available at a “square range” , it does not offer things like 180* firing lanes and exclusive use of the facility. The former is nice, but not necessary for training. The latter is something else that cannot be overlooked or the benefit overstated. BC has gone so far as setting up his land as the “Driftless Rifle Club” for our exclusive use. I would be an idiot not to take advantage of that resource at damn near any cost, let alone FREE.

4) I try to maximize the time I spend up at BC’s (to mitigate cost) by traveling up early. Last time I got up there at midnight, and was shooting by 8AM. Four hours of drive time round trip for eleven hours of trigger time seems worthwhile to me. I could have stayed longer, but I ran out of ammo. My cost in cash was a small donation surreptitiously dropped on the front seat of BC’s pickup. Even driving my gas-guzzling SUV, I spent far more on ammo than I did on gas. Camping sites are cheap , and there’s even a port-a-pot available. I have yet to go to a training date at BC’s where he hasn’t offered to cook lunch for me.

Tell me again why all the Alum aren’t showing up consistently?

Personally, I can spend less money driving to RCL, burn the same amount of ammo, and get correction from Photoman, PX, Drawcut, TJ, etc. however I won’t get the correction from Tommy, BC, None, TheKill, etc.

In short, I want as much positive reinforcement of my current skills as I can get without hiring Sully (or Pat Rodgers, or Clint Smith, etc.) full time, and that requires me to take advantage of the situations when I can. I’ve been unable to make the one “run and gun” at RCL that we’ve had, but will make every attempt to make the next, just as I’ll make an attempt to get up to the next “no fun” shoot at Driftless.

I may not make them all, but any time I can get behind the trigger and have guys I’d trust my life with scream “Lock your elbows!” and “WTF was that? Who taught you that crap?” is worth the gas money AND the time. Whatever you call the training (I wouldn’t call it “paramilitary” ), it’s too valuable an opportunity to miss.

Link Posted: 9/5/2005 8:30:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:
Tell me again why all the Alum aren’t showing up consistently?



Your points are well taken, but I can't tell you why all the alum aren't showing up consistantly. Only why I'm not.

Link Posted: 9/5/2005 11:03:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Throttle-Junkie:
Similar situation here.

The tent/grill/stove is ours, but the I've been borrowing the cooler and sleeping bags from my folks. Its been a round trip to Chicago to pick them up, round trip to BC's, and then another round trip to Chicago to return the borrowed items. This ends up to be 11+ hours of driving and about $80 in gas.
I found a good cooler at a rummage sale. Still looking for a decent set of sleeping bags and trying not to give China-Mart the money.
Plus, the wife has to work some saturdays. This coming 17th is one of those days.

School starts back up tomorrow, and that gets to monopolize my schedule. Every so often I can squeeze something in around it.(Like blowing off a day to sit in the balcony at Madison.) Most of the time, I can't. More than once, a season has gone by without me trying to get a deer. Don't even get to go out. School gets too busy, and everything else has to be sidelined.
I helped at Tattoo's and then couldn't go to the party ...... same shit, different day.

I'm probably a no-show for the rest of the year. If the planets line up just right and the moon is waning on the third tuesday of the month, I MIGHT be able to do some local stuff ........ like meet everyone for breakfast and go to a fun show for a couple hours.

There's no need to bait with promises of dividends on sweat equity. If it was doable for me, I'd be there. Matte of fact, there's not much that I'd rather be doing. Responsability keeps getting in the way of my play time, and I'm sick of it.



T-J if you need gear all you have to do is let us know. I for one have extra of just about all the camping stuff you could want. Tent, bags, etc etc.
Why didt you let us know you were going way out of your way to pick up gear just to camp out???


I will be making it to the 17th shoot. If I can posibly swing it at all I will be making it up for the work party as well (that is still up in the air tho).
As for how much I want to continue my training, Lets just say the wifeys birfday is that weekend and I talked her into letting me go. I will however be unable to go out at all for a few weeks afterwards tho.

As for the cost well lets just say that the wifey spent a BUNCH of money putting ina bathroom downstairs that is just finishing up and I am still trying to get baack on my feet after paying for this.
I am wondering why more of us do not carpool to BC's. I know a lot of you guys use the same range ove r in the Racine area so why not meet there and carpool up. This would save on gas costs and you can shoot the bull and get caught up on the way. I know that Tom and I tend to get out of touch with both of our lives and whatnot and I really look forward to the hour spent shooting the bull and catching up.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 11:39:48 AM EDT
I had mentioned carpooling for a previous shoot at BC's, but people scheduling conflicts prevented any decent run.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 2:50:09 PM EDT
Hey, I still work on skills, and good bit at that.

Now not getting out to BC's, well most things have pretty much been covered. Like PX I get every other weekend off. So most of the time I have to plan things way in advance. The 17th I'm supossed to be out hog hunting. Thats been in the works for two weeks now. And it may not even pop off because of gas prices. And work isn't always that flexable to loet me get off when things pop up. I asked for off a month in advance of the last two classes, and couldn't get off because of vacations. I did the same thing for the precision rifle class and again it was turned down. Not much I can do. This one just popped up to late for me. And even then with gas prices the way they are I still probably wouldn't make it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 5:12:23 PM EDT
There's nothing I'd rather do then be able to go shoot on a range with like minded individuals on dynamic drills as opposed to a square range. But like other's have said. with the cost of Gas and Ammo and time along with Family commitments, it's hard to be able to cordinate that kind of time as opposed to me running out to my Local range within 15 mins and getting in some halfway decent practice on 200 rds of Carbine and 100 pistol.

We ran into the same problem when we first fired up a CMP shoot at the local ranges. at first we had dismal turn outs. We wondered why so few came out. Guys working shift work, Packer games, Kids soccer and other sporting events, etc. But gradually more and more came out. I know I'll try to make one of Stans events when I can swing everything.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:46:30 AM EDT
like everyone said before as it goes for me. its mostly time, and money. for bc's last thing something poped up that i couldn't control and i couldn't make it. the gas prices aren't thaaat big of a hassel to me as it is the cost of ammo. i don't supply a few thousand rounds of varios calbers at home yet like some arfcommers. when i go shooting at rclr i practice most of the drills covered in the class. at home i practice while i dry fire.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 9:47:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:14:52 AM EDT
+1 on schedule concerns, especially working on the weekends. Also, as others have mentioned, there are other practice ranges/resources available that can be utilized locally.

Although I still plan to make it to a practice session, mainly for socializing, when the schedule works out...
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 2:21:55 PM EDT
Oct. Nov. training will be hard for a lot of us to make since so many of us are huters also.
I know this is why I am dedicated to making the sept shoot since it will PROBABLY be the last one of the year for me.
Sorry shooting for fun and learning vs feeding my family well I gota go with feeding my family.
Yes venison makes up a large portion of our meat every year I can get more than one or two deer.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 2:33:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BulletcatchR:
Drawcut,
Everything we're practicing was covered by Sully in class.At the end of the day(literally)we are just putting the pieces together.


Communication is a DRC "range safety" thing as much as a team training skill,we have all got to be on the same page.

WE follow Sully's rules(common sense),don't extend yourself physically or 'mentally',if you need clarification/correction,ask and you'll get help.That's the bottom line of the whole deal.


bulletcatchR



Hey, I'm cool with that, Stan. I guess you dropped a couple of terms/abbreviations that I wasn't sure about. I should have spoken up and just asked the questions. Communication, right?

Link Posted: 9/7/2005 4:08:39 AM EDT
We live in a 24.7.365 world. I am fortunate that the club ranges I have access to are vacant during the week. Ergo, I can do stuff you can not do at commercial ranges. I applaud BC for making the range and stuff available to the WI alumni! In Mpls. metro there are not places to do a lot of practice. Bill's Gun Shop and Range is doing Tactical Tuesdays for which some DE alumni have taken part of. I whole heartedly endorse the idea of shooting is perishable skill! You guys should see al the CHL so called instructors in MN that take money and do not provide alumni shoots! Sully sure makes opportunities available. Then we have people who would bitch if they have to lift a finger!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:29:14 PM EDT
1]Bulletcatcher's place is great and it is awesome that he lets us train there.

2]Long ass drive for me-about 5 hours.

3]I train pretty regularly up here and have a variety of things I do to keep my skills up.

4]I sure don't claim to know it all but unless there is going to be some work on team tactics, house clearing, etc I am not sure these classes have a whole lot to offer me. I am a good and a quick shot. And like I said, I train up here. Range is unsupervised, often vacant and there is plenty of forest for me to go out and put up some targets, run some drills, etc.

I'll tell you grouse hunting is great training FWIW.
It helps a lot with foot work, quick target acquisition, accuracy....

5]Team tactics are where it is at for me right now and it is the natural evolution of what we are doing. These weapons we are using are menat to be used by teams of men for optimal performance and outcome.

6]I can only make it 2, maybe 3 times yearly, so I have to choose carefully.

When is this next shoot BTW?

Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:07:07 PM EDT
Hey, haven't seen you in a while. How's everything going?
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:29:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterPX:
Hey, haven't seen you in a while. How's everything going?



Good.
Quit my job. Youngest strated college. Painted my house. Lots of other chores to accomplish before winter this year. Not why I quit my job though, just sick of the NO mentality loser brigade. Good thing overall but I am going to have to get back to work one of these months. Maybe a little hunting first.

Think I am going to do a little training today. I have a low area between a couple of ridges near my house. Staple paper plates on all the stumps and work my way through. That'll eat up a little ammo today.

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:51:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:02:19 AM EDT
I am definitely interested in doing some training with you guys. I did the handgun course with Sully on August 23rd and he told me to make sure to talk to BulletcatchR about doing shoots up at your property. The Dells is about 45min from me so it's not that difficult for me to make it up there.

I'm really pretty much a beginner when it comes to shooting, but I also really want to learn and improve my skills. I would love to get together regularly with ARFCOM WI crew and train with you guys. The only thing really holding me back is finding the time and paying for all that ammo.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:15:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 4:24:24 PM EDT by Rebel_Marine]
Thinking about it.


Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:24:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BulletcatchR:
YO DOC!

Good to hear from you.



Hey Stan.
Sounds like I missed out on a few this summer.


Nothing like alittle gunfightng to clear the mind.A positive headspace adjustment.


For sure.


I'm setting up a calender with a system of notifications(emails) to help folks better plan(another addy for the junkmail bin).I will get Quin to to update his DE thread and if you subscribe to that thread it should be foolproof.

Ever think of hosting any classes up North?I'm bummed I sold my place in Tomahawk,out at the end of a dead end road just like this one,after taking on this place I never had a use for it.It would've been a great shooting gallery.



You've got an awesome property Stan. I'll bet it was hard to part with the place in Tomahawk.

I would like to do something up here but I need some acreage. What I have is lake front with a lot of National Forest around me. Watching the real estate market and we'll see what happens. There are a lot of places I go to plink and train but none would work out for a large group. Public Land.
The shooting range here would be great but I cannot reserve it or space. If you saw the way it was laid out you would understand and I would feel bad bringing everyone up here to waste their time.

TheKill said he might come up and grouse hunt. If he does maybe we'll scope out the area.
Actually, there is a property nearby that is going to be turned into a skeet range, I guess. Hmm, that might have possibilities.


Keep up the training and good luck with your future( I know how much you disliked your old job).

bulletcatchR



About the only thing keeping me from shooting more right now is the price of ammo. Geez.
Thanks, don't miss the job one bit. Miss having a job, and miss the guys I worked with but that is about it. Oh and did I say money?
I need a little time off and then I'll find something to do.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 4:15:34 PM EDT
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