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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 1/4/2006 6:15:26 PM EDT
Over on Calguns someone started a thread about increased audits by the DOJ (in the last few days?).

Maybe it's just normal year end routine. Maybe it's because of all this no name lower receiver thing. Only the DOJ knows for sure.

But if it's the latter, would that come as a surprise?

Would it come as surprise if some DOJ agents showed up at your door and asked (yes, asked) so see all 15 of those No Name AR type receivers you just took delivery of?

You know, it's not every day that a individual unlicensed person does the dros on 10, 15, or 20 "long guns". Heck, it's not very often a GUN STORE does that many in one day, much less to one person. Of course it draws attention. It would not be unreasonable for the DOJ or ATF to pay a visit to a FFL and find out why the sudden, very unusual increase in their dros submissions. It would not be unreasonable for the DOJ, or ATF to subsequently pay a visit to the person who was aquiring all those firearms and make sure everything is above board.

A huge percentage of firearms used in crimes that came from legit FFL (vs. stolen) originated from a very small percentage of FFLs. Given today's computerization it's not hard to imagine a red flag going up when a FFL who normally does a few guns a day to suddenly one day do 15,20,50,etc.

I'm not trying to make anyone paranoid, but if you were one of those who DROS'd a large quanity of lowers recently, don't be surprised if after your 10 day wait is up you get paid a visit to see if you actually have all those lowers in your possesion.

But don't worry. I'm sure it will be a "friendly" visit.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:33:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:41:01 PM EDT
Saw the same thread over on CalGuns.

It's an interesting discussion over there. Some tinfoil beanies are on mighty tight, others are thinking the DOJ may just be taking the information for compliance checks when lowers are added and the registration window is open.


We'll see what happens.

Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:46:17 PM EDT
Man, Pthfndr, are you trying to scare a bunch of the girls here and on calguns tonight or what?

Tonight I've seen some of the most active spreading of F.U.D. in a long time.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:48:23 PM EDT
Thats why I store all my [grey area stuff] over at blue84s10s house.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:55:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pieeater:
Thats why I store all my [grey area stuff] over at blue84s10s house.



Yea.. uh.. me too, but I keep it on his boat...
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 7:00:22 PM EDT
I've spoken with an FFL (to remain nameless) who had a detailed discussion w/a supervisory field agent from DOJ Firearms Div.

Remember long gun DROS info isn't stored. DOJ has to go to the FFLs to get the paperwork to get DL info.

The intent is to mail letters and registration cards when the hammer falls and various brands and models are about to be 'identified' as AWs. DOJ agents have actually handled non-Kasler/off-list lowers stored at some FFLs pending DROS with no negative effects. If there were any legal issues, FFLs would be in cuffs by now esp with the bulk nature of their business in the last 2 weeks.

If someone - DOJ or otherwise - shows up at your door asking to see your AWs, ask for a warrant. If they say they can get one, they can't - otherwise they would've already.

Since everything is legal, this is just the DOJ trying to distribute reg info and promulgate make/models being added to the DOJ Roster of AR15 and AK Series Weapons (and updating CCR sec 979.11, the gold standard) without getting a lot of public attention and political attention (screaming soccer moms in backgroun: how could this have happened? how come you haven't updated the list since October 2000? Oh, pray for the children, the children...)


Link Posted: 1/4/2006 7:45:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bwiese:
I've spoken with an FFL (to remain nameless) who had a detailed discussion w/a supervisory field agent from DOJ Firearms Div.

Remember long gun DROS info isn't stored. DOJ has to go to the FFLs to get the paperwork to get DL info.

The intent is to mail letters and registration cards when the hammer falls and various brands and models are about to be 'identified' as AWs. DOJ agents have actually handled non-Kasler/off-list lowers stored at some FFLs pending DROS with no negative effects. If there were any legal issues, FFLs would be in cuffs by now esp with the bulk nature of their business in the last 2 weeks.

If someone - DOJ or otherwise - shows up at your door asking to see your AWs, ask for a warrant. If they say they can get one, they can't - otherwise they would've already.

Since everything is legal, this is just the DOJ trying to distribute reg info and promulgate make/models being added to the DOJ Roster of AR15 and AK Series Weapons (and updating CCR sec 979.11, the gold standard) without getting a lot of public attention and political attention (screaming soccer moms in backgroun: how could this have happened? how come you haven't updated the list since October 2000? Oh, pray for the children, the children...)





No question this could be the reason. And there's no doubt in my mind that nothing illegal has transpired........yet. But still.........................................................
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 7:46:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HalfMoon:
Man, Pthfndr, are you trying to scare a bunch of the girls here and on calguns tonight or what?

Tonight I've seen some of the most active spreading of F.U.D. in a long time.



What can I say? I'm bored.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 7:51:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:

Originally Posted By HalfMoon:
Man, Pthfndr, are you trying to scare a bunch of the girls here and on calguns tonight or what?

Tonight I've seen some of the most active spreading of F.U.D. in a long time.



What can I say? I'm bored.



Me too, I'm still looking for update posts..
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:23:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 8:33:45 PM EDT by blacklisted]
I only got 2 and I wouldn't mind a visit from the MIB. It wouldn't make my day or anything, but they can see that I am doing nothing wrong. I'd even offer them some refreshments. I would not let them search my house without a warrant, but I do not mind letting them "see" my lowers. Of course this wouldn't happen because they could just go see them at the FFL if they wanted to.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:23:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 8:29:18 PM EDT by snobordr]
Check your tinfoil hats ladies, some might be causing a blood flow issue.



ETA: Now, if they have you listed for 10, and you register less, or someone else is found in possession of a lower DROS'ed/registered to you, then yes, expect company.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:35:19 PM EDT
OK lets get to brass tacks here...

What is THE MOST, THE WORST case scenario any of you can see happening. I have heard from a LEO on this but want to hear your opinion and why.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:38:32 PM EDT
There is not a Kaliban computer that tells what type of rifle is sold.

I dont know where to start with this BS internet rumor.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:43:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 8:44:00 PM EDT by blacklisted]

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
There is not a Kaliban computer that tells what type of rifle is sold.

I dont know where to start with this BS internet rumor.



That is correct, but they have visited the FFLs and got the info.

I don't care either way, my dog is already near dead so it won't really change anything if JBTs shoot it. Honestly guys, don't worry about this. As long as you are doing what is legal (which we are) and continue to do so then there is no problem. Just don't do something stupid and build one of these up into a non SB-23 compliant rifle!
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:48:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
There is not a Kaliban computer that tells what type of rifle is sold.



Not by type or model, no. But the computer could certainly break down how many long guns a given FFL has dros'd on a given day.


I dont know where to start with this BS internet rumor.


What rumor? There's another internet rumor going around? Darn! I missed it. My posts were merely speculation. As to the audits, they are not rumors, and I didn't start that.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 9:51:24 PM EDT
I think the final answer is above, don't do anything stupid. More people get in trouble by being stupid about the laws when by being smart there would be no problems. If you do buy lowers and sell them off or otherwise dispose of them without following the necessary laws on transfers, which is just as illegal as doing it with any other guns, why are you going to be surprised to get in trouble over it?
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 9:52:22 PM EDT
JEEEESH Pthfndr why don't you say something positive for a change and quit scaring the girls. This is all BS.

A discussion on dust storms in hell would be as meaningful as this one is.

hrm
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:13:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By highratmaster:
JEEEESH Pthfndr why don't you say something positive for a change and quit scaring the girls. This is all BS.

A discussion on dust storms in hell would be as meaningful as this one is.

hrm



Spoil sport
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:18:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
There is not a Kaliban computer that tells what type of rifle is sold.



Not by type or model, no. But the computer could certainly break down how many long guns a given FFL has dros'd on a given day.


I dont know where to start with this BS internet rumor.


What rumor? There's another internet rumor going around? Darn! I missed it. My posts were merely speculation. As to the audits, they are not rumors, and I didn't start that.




What i am saying is gun sales can be very weird if you actually think the DOJ is watching the computer going XXX sales sold 5 long guns today lets roll down there and shake down their 4473 forms!
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:27:26 PM EDT
They can search the house all they want. They won't find a damn thing.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 11:25:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja:
They can search the house all they want. They won't find a damn thing.

I wouldn't consent to that unless there was a search warrant.

Pthfndr, think we could go a week without some bs "what-if?" scenario?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:05:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DrFrige:
What is THE MOST, THE WORST case scenario any of you can see happening. I have heard from a LEO on this but want to hear your opinion and why.



Personally?

First, how could they get a warrant?

On the other hand, in these days of the USA PATRIOT Act, maybe they don't need a warrant. My wife is Arab after all. Maybe that's enough: "You are married to an Arab and you possess firearms. It's in the fine print of the USA PATRIOT Act [which, in PDF form, is 342 pages long]. Let us in."

Okay, since I'm in the business I am beyond scrupulous about following gun laws, but who knows what else they might find in the house? I don't have any illegal drugs or anything around, but maybe there's a few violations of the electrical code. Now maybe they can haul me in and publicize my ARSENAL of HIGH POWERED MILITARY FIREARMS and THOUSANDS OF ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION.

Remember, almost all of us here possess home arsenals.

Dunno what I could actually be prosecuted for, but I bet I could spent high five figures defending myself from it. I guess that's worse case.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 7:46:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mesa_Tactical:

Originally Posted By DrFrige:
What is THE MOST, THE WORST case scenario any of you can see happening. I have heard from a LEO on this but want to hear your opinion and why.



Personally?

First, how could they get a warrant?

On the other hand, in these days of the USA PATRIOT Act, maybe they don't need a warrant. My wife is Arab after all. Maybe that's enough: "You are married to an Arab and you possess firearms. It's in the fine print of the USA PATRIOT Act [which, in PDF form, is 342 pages long]. Let us in."

Okay, since I'm in the business I am beyond scrupulous about following gun laws, but who knows what else they might find in the house? I don't have any illegal drugs or anything around, but maybe there's a few violations of the electrical code. Now maybe they can haul me in and publicize my ARSENAL of HIGH POWERED MILITARY FIREARMS and THOUSANDS OF ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION.

Remember, almost all of us here possess home arsenals.

Dunno what I could actually be prosecuted for, but I bet I could spent high five figures defending myself from it. I guess that's worse case.



Could they get a warrant? For purchasing 1 or 2 lowers and no other issues, highly unlikely, but you could get a gun hating judge on the rag, but realistically not very likely. Probability of around 1% or less. Now if you got say 10 or more and you have a history of less than honorable activities and they get added to the list and YOU DON'T register in the grace period? Probability of 99%+ And if you have bought and then failed to register, you better damn well be able to show all 10+ of those lowers whe they arrive, because if you got rid of them in a manner inconsistent with the laws, you just might get considered to be an illegal trafficer of some sort. And you likely are. Remember the law is pretty specific on where you can store them, keep them, etc. You might not agree with it, but that's what you got to live with while you are here.

Electrical Code Violations? come on, you get cited, those are not criminal violations. You guys can postulate a variety of worst case scenarios, but inject some realism. MOST PDs etc in CA are relatively smart, and grandstanding without a solid basis might get publicity, but the resulting lawsuits are very painful to the cities, so if you aren't being stupid and they aren't being stupid your chances of having problems are way down in the noise.

Heck, I'm married to a Serb and they were the duty bad guys a few years ago and I never worried about it. I figured I was more in danger when I took one of the US Army "Wanted" posters from Bosnia to a meeting of the Serbian United Benevolent Society Anual Picnic, and showed it to a few friends. "Hey Drago, look the white guy that married Nick's daughter has a picture of your cousin"
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:04:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 8:05:37 AM EDT by Mesa_Tactical]

Originally Posted By PaDanby:
Could they get a warrant? For purchasing 1 or 2 lowers and no other issues, highly unlikely,



Impossible. There's nothing on the DROS to indicate what I purchased, aside from being a long gun, and I have a history of buying a shotgun every couple months.

And as I said, I am scrupulous about obeying laws. When I have to register my lowers, I will register my lowers. If they are never added to the list, I will get rid of them.

The scenario you described includes actual violations of the law (non registration, etc). In that case, you are no longer a law-abiding gun owner and all bets are off.


Heck, I'm married to a Serb and they were the duty bad guys a few years ago and I never worried about it.


I don't worry about it. But we do get hassled at the airport sometimes because of all the Arab and North African passport stamps.

But the USA PATRIOT Act is 340 pages long. God knows what's in there.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 9:14:31 AM EDT
This is an open invitation for anyone to search my residence, I love to show off my guns!

( Just call me in advance so I can hide my half-empty pack of moon travelers.)
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 10:14:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JAMES77257:
This is an open invitation for anyone to search my residence, I love to show off my guns!

( Just call me in advance so I can hide my half-empty pack of moon travelers.)



[chrisfarhley]What the hell is a moon travler[chrisfarhley]
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 6:26:00 PM EDT
Speaking of passports, due to a concatenation of events I had a passport issued by the Consular Section of the Embassy in Tokyo, it ended up having one more exit stamp from Japan than entry stamps. Used to confuse the heck out of Japanese and Korean Immigration types on following trips.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 10:36:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:55:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 9:09:35 AM EDT
FWIW registering a rifle as an AW does not subject you to any type of compliance inspection or anything. Although I can see something like that being law in a few decades with the Safe storage requirements and such becoming more common.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 11:31:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
FWIW registering a rifle as an AW does not subject you to any type of compliance inspection or anything. Although I can see something like that being law in a few decades with the Safe storage requirements and such becoming more common.



Correct. Joe Simitian (D-Palo Alto) was trying this for awhile.

IIRC, I believe there IS some requirment for certain AW permittees (non-dealer) for inspection/safe storage, but not for standard AW registrants.

Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:53:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:
That reminds me ... I gotta' go pick another one mine up today.




Can you pick up a book on the proper use of the English language as well?
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 5:07:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DrFrige:

Originally Posted By Paul:
That reminds me ... I gotta' go pick another one mine up today.




Can you pick up a book on the proper use of the English language as well?



Geez! Can't you let the guy have his Yoda moment?
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:49:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bwiese:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
FWIW registering a rifle as an AW does not subject you to any type of compliance inspection or anything. Although I can see something like that being law in a few decades with the Safe storage requirements and such becoming more common.



Correct. Joe Simitian (D-Palo Alto) was trying this for awhile.

IIRC, I believe there IS some requirment for certain AW permittees (non-dealer) for inspection/safe storage, but not for standard AW registrants.




But I think I would really want to have one where it could be found in the off chance a warrant ever did arrive. Because if you ain't got it at home, where is it? the law (unfortunately) is pretty damn specific and extremely limited on you letting it go to other folks for any reason.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:11:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mute:

Originally Posted By DrFrige:

Originally Posted By Paul:
That reminds me ... I gotta' go pick another one mine up today.




Can you pick up a book on the proper use of the English language as well?



Geez! Can't you let the guy have his Yoda moment?



[Yoda]"Let him, I won't!"[/Yoda]

I always mess with (the non existant) Paul. He's a good sport.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:48:26 PM EDT
I just got the obscure Ruby Ridge association. Good oneh=85%

Originally Posted By blacklisted:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
There is not a Kaliban computer that tells what type of rifle is sold.

I dont know where to start with this BS internet rumor.



That is correct, but they have visited the FFLs and got the info.

I don't care either way, my dog is already near dead so it won't really change anything if JBTs shoot it. Honestly
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:51:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 6172crew:

Originally Posted By JAMES77257:
This is an open invitation for anyone to search my residence, I love to show off my guns!

( Just call me in advance so I can hide my half-empty pack of moon travelers.) hr


[chrisfarhley]What the hell is a moon travler[chrisfarhley]hr


Little bottle rockets.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:40:16 PM EDT
Pthfndr - Is this newfound paranoia because of the 17 receivers you mentioned buying over on CalGuns?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 3:36:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leelaw:
Pthfndr - Is this newfound paranoia because of the 17 receivers you mentioned buying over on CalGuns?



I've got nothing to be paranoid about. they've already been here

And no, you can't store your new unlisted lowers here. I've told you 10 times already so stop asking
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 3:41:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:

Originally Posted By leelaw:
Pthfndr - Is this newfound paranoia because of the 17 receivers you mentioned buying over on CalGuns?



I've got nothing to be paranoid about. they've already been here

And no, you can't store your new unlisted lowers here. I've told you 10 times already so stop asking


Fine! I won't let you hold any more for me.. Can I come by tonight and pick up the 9 you're already holding?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:15:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uglygun:
Saw the same thread over on CalGuns.

It's an interesting discussion over there. Some tinfoil beanies are on mighty tight, others are thinking the DOJ may just be taking the information for compliance checks when lowers are added and the registration window is open.


We'll see what happens.




Anyone have alink for this thread? I havent been there for quite awhile and I searched around but there seems to be alot of activity recently and that thread might have been buried
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:24:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 7:30:47 PM EDT by WizardOfAhs]

Originally Posted By Paul:
That reminds me ... I gotta' go pick another one mine up today.




I picked up my lowers the day after you did!

The Wiz Family will be eatin' cheap for a month, but hey, these things are going like hotcakes, had to jump on it! Felt like Christmas today.

Paul, ^5s.

ETA: If the DOJ wanna come to Ahs to visit, they must bring soda and chips and be prepared to bullshit with me for hours..
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