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Posted: 2/19/2007 6:37:21 PM EDT
I haven't posted in awhile so I do apologize. I've been busy among other things. But I felt this urge to share something with all of you so you can either get a laugh or pay it forward to educate others in the future.
We had family day at the range today. I prefer not to reveal where in the DFW area because I don't want to slam anyone. A couple lanes over where 3 police officers. We knew this because their badges were visible on their belts. A kid with this group (party of about 8) admired our can! He proceeded to bring this to one of the officer's attention. And the next thing I heard was, that's ILLEGAL! The kid said why, his response, because they are quiet. So my husband, Soowah, says to this officer, Are you sure about that? Asked him about 3X.  At this point I had to contain my laughter as I was shooting because I knew the proceeding conversation would be quite entertaining. And it was. I felt like they were trying to intimidate us because they were officers. When I saw Soowah reaching for our paperwork I was just hoping those parties could regain the man cards that were just taken from them this afternoon. The hubby conducted himself very nicely and had his instructor demeanor on. I on other the hand don't think I could have dealt with the "I have a BADGE" so I'm right attitude. Please keep in mind we have the utmost respect for our police officers. But as we all know before claiming or stating a fact make sure you know the facts. |
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Posted: 2/19/2007 6:44:34 PM EDT
[#1]
Well played. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall during that encounter.
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Posted: 2/19/2007 7:06:38 PM EDT
[#2]
yep. you were right...
but keep in mind the form is just a defense to persecution they can take the gun and the can and arrest you and put you in jail. when you go before the judge in a couple days you can show him the form and at that time he will let you go. then you have to fight to get the can returned and your record expunged. it's best to be nice to cops and not make fools of them in public. after all they are on your side. |
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Posted: 2/19/2007 7:16:31 PM EDT
[#3]
Thats bullshit and your post is a contradiction.  They can take the gun and the can and arrest you and put you in jail for having the correct paper work, but hey! They are on your side... 
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Posted: 2/19/2007 7:24:53 PM EDT
[#4]
they are on your side. they are trying to uphold the law. the law says you go to jail if you have a NFA item. once you get to jail and are prosecuted by the DA you can use the NFA doc as a defence to that prosecution. I am not saying l like the law but that is the law. most cops don't know the law with regard to NFA but they can smell a BS story. so be nice and professional and don't humiliate them. |
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Posted: 2/19/2007 7:47:23 PM EDT
[#5]
I dont need a side, thanks anyway. I never met a cop who was rooting for my success in anything I was doing at the time.... so I guess I havent seen that which you describe.
No, they are there to enforce the law... and these days, a lot of it is revenue generation.
Well, it states the offense.... correct. Whether you are taken to jail is what the officer must decide based on the totallity of the law and the circumstances.
Correct, except I spell it "defense". 
If they step on their dick.... I aint gonna baby them... I wouldnt treat them any different than anyone else however. That being said - if they are commenting on legal matters, and dont know what they are talking about - that is worse than avg. joe. They are supposed to be more knowledgeable on these matters. If they dont know what the law is - they should remain quiet, or suffer the consequences, like anyone else. That's how I see it. |
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Posted: 2/19/2007 7:51:40 PM EDT
[#6]
But the Chief of Police says otherwise Seriously, it was a pleasant exchange with the officers leaving knowing more than they arrived with. Which is exactly the point, it's impossible to know every state, federal and local laws, thats why they have shift commanders and knowledgeable citizens. Yes cops can smell bullshit, that's fine it's their jobs to determine whether or not anyone has broken any laws. So, I simply imparted a little knowledge on them, sadly they seemed embarrassed about making a hasty generalization. No harm no foul. |
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Posted: 2/19/2007 8:23:18 PM EDT
[#7]
Dude, HK, aren't you the one a thread down that was wondering if you could shoot someone after the threat was neutralized? Just plug em' in the leg again for good measure....
If a cop is going to be a dick with no knowlege, it is not my fault if someone puts him in his place. Besides, you don't think he does the same thing to everyone else. Who cares if he was a cop or not. A dick is still a dick. James |
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Posted: 2/19/2007 9:04:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Who cares if he was a cop or not. A dick is still a dick. See Dick Drive See Dick Drink See Dick Die DONT BE A DICK! 
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Posted: 2/19/2007 11:44:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Take your gun and put you in jail for what? Your not breaking any law. That's like saying a cop can arrest you and take (impound) your car because you are driving. You have the drivers license (paperwork - defense to prosecution) but because he doesnt know or care the cop can just haul you away and let the judge figure it out? If I showed the documentation and argued my case to Johnny Law, I don't mind him detaining me while he confirms if a law is being broken, but just to take me to jail is a line that I think will one day bring a huge problem with it.
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Posted: 2/20/2007 5:27:35 AM EDT
[#10]
This is a legal discussion, you need to understand... a law is broken if you posess a machinegun or silencer in Texas. They are against the law here and prohibited. The discussion is one of, the differences between "non-applicability" and "defense to prosecution". A defense of prosecution is just that - a defense that may be used during that stage of the legal process. It is not a defense of arrest. Now - any cop worth his salt isnt going to arrest anyone for something they *know* wont stick.... so it should not be an issue. But the fact remains - possession of these items in Texas is an arrestable offense.... from how I have had explained, what a "defense to prosecution" is.
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Posted: 2/20/2007 5:44:54 AM EDT
[#11]
Your use of the word "persecution" has me wondering something. Was it intentional or was it a Freudian slip? I'm thinking the latter. |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 5:56:19 AM EDT
[#12]
lemme guess, your a cop? |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 6:16:47 AM EDT
[#13]
If a LEO is not sure about a particular law, then call his/her supervisor/chief...for advice. It's best for everyone involved. |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 6:52:02 AM EDT
[#14]
What total BS...just because the dude is a cop doesn't make it right to bully a legal law abiding citizen. If the guy has the correct paperwork for an NFA item its his to legally own...cops can't (though they can try on the spot) make up laws to justify their bullying. Its just another example of the state oversteping its bounds. I'm not against cops, by the way, my own younger brother is a cop, and I know what goes on...legal or not.
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Posted: 2/20/2007 6:54:16 AM EDT
[#15]
No Numbnuts, that's NOT what the law says. It IS a defense to prosecution; however, the law does not say "you go to jail". When a person meets the defense the officer has within his discretion to not arrest. In fact, it is incumbent on a professional officer to investigate an assertion of facts meeting the defense. It is unprofessional and a waste of MY resources (tax dollars) for an officious acting officer to arrest when he knows the defense exists. People should not antagonize LEO's anymore than they should any other person. That is common courtesy and sense. At the same time, cops need to check their attitudes and understand that it is not proper to "enforce attitudes". |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 7:09:05 AM EDT
[#16]
+1 |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 7:49:20 AM EDT
[#17]
BS! No Cop in America is on my side. As a retired Truck Driver I can tell you horror stories of outright discrimination and abuse by so called Police Officers. I have suffered personally from abuses by the US Gestapo. When the SHTF they are number 2 on my list, right after liberal politicians. No Cop is on my side! |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 8:04:16 AM EDT
[#18]
Why should we be? We're not SUPPOSED to "take sides" it's considered unethical. BTW: I'll trade you truck driver horror stories for your cop horror stories. As for SHTF, and your "number two on my list" comment, stop on by when it's convienent big guy.
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Posted: 2/20/2007 8:05:19 AM EDT
[#19]
No, he's not. |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 8:39:07 AM EDT
[#20]
§ 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells: (1) an explosive weapon; (2) a machine gun; (3) a short-barrel firearm; (4) a firearm silencer; (5) a switchblade knife; (6) knuckles; (7) armor-piercing ammunition; (8) a chemical dispensing device; or (9) a zip gun. (b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a correctional facility. (c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended. That's TX law so how is it MGs, suppressors can be registered & owned? Definitely confusing... |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 8:43:01 AM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 2/20/2007 9:06:39 AM EDT
[#22]
Just remember, just like with our military, police come from the same society we all live in. There are the good, the bad and the ugly amongst all of us. Just look at the truck driver who posted. Give me a break!
I'm a cop, haven't always been and been on the other side of those having a 'bad day'. No different than the customer service you get from any other place. In general you probably receive good customer service throughout your daily dealings but every one of us has had those experiences we'd rather not have had. Do I treat everyone like assholes from now on? No, I go about my daily activities. Because of those 1 or 2 asshole truck drivers, should I treat every driver at the Pilot Truck Stop like dicks? No. If you have a problem with an officer, verbally complain. No different than calling the manager over to talk about a servers service or lack there of. Oh, and to stay on topic, cops just like in any other job should and generally do confer with others when they are not real sure on something. I for one can say I only know 1/10th of what there is to know regarding laws etc. |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 9:18:22 AM EDT
[#23]
I dont see where anyone was "bullied" by a police officer. Let's stick to the facts.....
I didnt read anything about any legal action being taken in this case, or bullying..... did you?
No - in this post - it appears to be a misunderstanding of the original post.
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Posted: 2/20/2007 9:19:58 AM EDT
[#24]
If by "list" you mean inflicting violence on another group - your account wont be open very long here. Can you explain what "list" means during SHTF? |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 9:31:37 AM EDT
[#25]
If im not mistaking there is only one law that specifically says "YOU GO TO JAIL" and that is breaking a protective order...everything else is officer discretion is it not? Rob |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 10:59:40 AM EDT
[#26]
I apologise for that remark. I am truly sorry if I offended anyone. I have had some very bad experiences with crooked cops. Both as a Truck Driver and as an ordinary citizen in Ft Worth. The law was on my side and I prevailed in court, but it cost me a lot, including my respect for police officers. I am truly sorry and will not bother anyone here again. Please terminate my account immediately. Thank You. |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 12:16:57 PM EDT
[#27]
No problem. |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 3:48:29 PM EDT
[#28]
i don't think they will ticket you and send you on your way if you commit a felony. the second part is discretionary on the part of the officer. he is not incumbent or obligated to take that course of action. |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 5:37:32 PM EDT
[#29]
Well, clearly I was not ticketed nor was I arrested. So in these particular officers eyes I was NOT committing a felony. Even though at first they were sure, sure, 100% sure it was illegal for me to have it.
To be more precise, when the CLEO signs off on the 2 F4's and 2 F1's he is stating that there are no laws he is aware of that would make the NFA items illegal for me to possess. Had I not had my paperwork, a call to the ATF with the serial # to my items would have cleared it up. ETA: if you have an illegally converted firearm, silencer, sawed off shottgun then all bets are off. There is no defense to an illegal conversion. There is no "document dump" one could pull out their ass. |
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Posted: 2/20/2007 5:49:08 PM EDT
[#30]
Sounds like you handled yourself fine.
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Posted: 2/20/2007 11:36:39 PM EDT
[#31]
If im not mistaking there is only one law that specifically says "YOU GO TO JAIL" and that is breaking a protective order...everything else is officer discretion is it not? Rob Family violence "shall make an arrest". Not "may make an arrest", shall. |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 5:48:29 AM EDT
[#32]
Your a You'd probably be surprised just how many cops end up on our side should or when that day comes. ETA: fuckin page 2, I forgot aboooooot it! Anyhow, good on you Soowah! I'm glad you handed out said knowledge. Most would've just actes like rude or worse to the mis-informed cops, but you didnt. Again, I salute ya! |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 6:53:37 AM EDT
[#33]
Can you tell us a little more about the actual encounter? Were you actually confronted by the LEO's and/or threatened with arrest, or did you decide it was best to educate them before it came to that? The way I read the original post, they were shooting a few lanes over, saw your cans, and didn't say anything about them until one of their kids asked about them. At that point, they told the child they were illegal. You replied "are you sure about that" and they didn't respond, so you repeated yourself x2. Eventually you initiated a conversation with them, showed them your paperwork, and they ended up better educated about NFA firearms. It sounds like there might be some pieces of the story missing between "we're cops and that guy over there is committing a felony" and "NFA101 with professor soowah." If so, please share. |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 7:51:39 AM EDT
[#34]
No, in fact, if the officer knows the defense CLEARLY exists, he should NOT arrest. |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 7:56:15 AM EDT
[#35]
Be careful. A street cop is not going to call ATF. No paperwork = probable cause that you are violating Texas Penal Code 46.05, and I can assure you a trip to jail will ensue. When you have your NFA item in Texas you are depending on a defense to prosecution to keep you out of jail, so carry evidence of that defense with the items. The state must have PC to arrest you for 46.05. Simply having the NFA item is PC. The burden of establishing the defense is on YOU, not the state. |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 8:14:00 AM EDT
[#36]
No my wife pretty well nailed it. The 2 officers appeared to be getting ready to initiate contact with me. They were off duty officers and were really trying to show off their badges. I'm not sure what department the were with or rank, they were in plane clothes and having a family range day.
After the 1st officer told the kid they were illegal, I kind of shrugged it off and finished my mag and set the gun down. When I turned around I had both officers undivided attentions. I though "oh boy" here we go. I decided to go on the offensive and asked which officer said these are illegal. The younger one stepped forward and said he did and that they are illegal. I asked "are you sure"? he said yes. I asked "are you positive"? he said yes. I asked a third time "are you 100% sure these are illegal"? He postured forward and asserted himself with a perturbed "yes, they are illegal". So, I said hold on just one second, let me get something from my range bag. Pulled out all my NFA paperwork. Most all CLEO sign offs and some trusts. I just started laying them out on the bench. This one is signed by Chief XXX for a SBR This one is also signed by Chief XXX for another SBR This one is also signed by Chief XXX for a silencer This one is also signed by chief XXx for the silencer I'm shooting. This one is paperwork that belongs to my trust for the other silencer in my range bag. All these documents are signed and approved by an ATF examiner. Now do you still believe these are illegal for me to own? The older officer had already walked away and I was now talking solely to the younger one. He responded by saying, "wow, I wish I would have known about this before I made an ass out of myself". "How long has this been in place"? I told him since 1934. At this point his demeanor had changed and I knew he has seen the light. I asked if he wanted to shoot some..........His response, Nah, "I used to shoot those in the military" I don't know what it looked like from afar, my wife said it looked funny though. I treated them like a professional and very matter of factly. Again like I said they left knowing more than they came with, no harm no foul. |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 8:20:43 AM EDT
[#37]
Nice. <paul harvey>And now we know the rest of the story</paul harvey> Wish I could have been there to see that. Sounds like you handled the situation quite well. Question for LEOs -- is NFA law covered in your academy training? |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 9:33:52 AM EDT
[#38]
Texas Weapons laws are covered. A NFA item is illegal to possess in Texas. it is a defense to prosecution that the item is registered under the NFA. There are two levels of confusion for LEO's; 1) Many LEOs know that Texas Penal Code 45.05 makes machine guns, silencers and short barreled firearms illegal. However, some don't know that possession under the NFA is a defense to prosecution. 2) I don't recall being taught more than "if it is registered under the NFA they will have government paperwork in their possession". I believe better education of LEO's is needed. Another problem is that most people don't understand what a defense to prosecution is. A defense to prosecution means that IF prosecuted and the prosecution proves the elements of the offense, then the burden is on YOU to prove you met the defense. So in a prosecution for the point of this thread; the man was shooting an SBR and silencer in plain view of a LEO. Lets see if the man committed the elements of 46.05; Text §46.05. Prohibited weapons. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells: (3) a short-barrel firearm; (4) a firearm silencer; It could easily be proven that the man committed the above offence. Once the state rests, then the defense would argue the defense to prosecution, in this case; (c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended. The man would show his papers in court, and a not-guilty verdict would be had. Note that it is NOT a defense FROM prosecution. The LEO could lawfully have arrested the man. I don't believe ethically he should have as the evidence of the defense was presented and CLEAR. But be sure it is an arrestable offense. It IS confusing, I agree. |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 11:11:28 AM EDT
[#39]
Honestly, the amount of information given during the week or two weeks of 'training' for the penal code, transportation code, family code etc in most academies is so much that it is just 'skimmed over'.
We did not go over any thing specific regarding NFA, just the Texas Penal code. Plus, you would be amazed at the amount of police officers/cadets that have never owned or let alone shot a gun before attending their respective academy. Seriously! And I used to think all or most officers were 'gun nuts' like myself. Absolutely not the case. Most only own/possess the weapons issued them! |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 12:22:16 PM EDT
[#40]
As a side note, what is the definition of 'armor piercing'? Does that mean steel core or something else? Also, this doesn't appear to exclude items in your home - does that mean a swtichblade or other item in your home is a felony as well? BTW - thanks for posting your experience. Education in a polite way, and you had officers that weren't crooked or bullies. |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 1:10:51 PM EDT
[#41]
Texas Penal Code 46.01 Definitions (12) "Armor-piercing ammunition" means handgun ammunition that is designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating metal or body armor and to be used principally in pistols and revolvers. And yes, the mere possession, even in your home, is a violation of items in 46.05, unless you meet the requirements of one of the defenses or you are in a non-applicable category . |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 1:55:54 PM EDT
[#42]
Centuryhouse, since txinvestigator already answered the armor-piercing question, I'll move on to the other one:
§ 46.02 sets up UCW and § 46.05 sets up PW. Under § 46.05, (a)(5) makes "a switchblade knife" prohibited. (d)(1) sets the DTP as that your conduct "was incidental to dealing with a switchblade knife...... solely as an antique or curio". Since switchblades are PW, you probably just picked a bad example. For the most part, you should probably forget about PWs (such as switchblades). UCWs (on the other hand) have several DTPs that may make them moot (via the nonapplicability from § 46.15) in your particular situation(s). Just a little non-lawyerly info to chew on until the actual lawyerly types weigh in a little better. You can check it out for yourself here. Go to Title 10, and click on Chapter 46 (Weapons). Also check the archives if you ever get the chance. It's been hashed out ad infinitum here in the TX HTF over the years. |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 2:39:31 PM EDT
[#43]
I would have stuck with "list of people to avoid"
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Posted: 2/21/2007 4:11:42 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 2/21/2007 4:22:33 PM EDT
[#45]
edited. forget it.
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Posted: 2/21/2007 5:32:20 PM EDT
[#46]
So, let me ask the LEOs here.
If I am at a range with my suppressor and am confronted by a LEO telling me it is illegal to possess a suppressor here in Texas. I say, here is my paperwork. I hand him my approved Form 4 for said suppressor. He says, that is just a defense to prosecution. I say He says you are going to jail for being in posession of that silencer. You have the right to remain silent.... I go to jail. I go in front of a judge with my approved Form 4. Judge says, ok, case dismissed. That is a legal defense to prosecution. What happens to the LEO that hauled me after I complain to his superiors and anyone of authority that I can think of? Will they say he is correct, sir, that is just a defense to prosecution? Or will he be reprimanded or worse for hauling me to jail for that offense and that offense only? Would this ever happen if you have correct documentation with you? Have you guys ever seen this happen? Just a couple of questions about this scenario. Thanks for your input. |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 5:39:57 PM EDT
[#47]
I would be skeptical that it would ever get to court. Someone has to press charges for the offense. I doubt that the DA, once this crossed his desk would carry it to court.
This is just how I see it. I have no l eagle training nor do I know how this would play out after an arrest. This is just my own thoughts here. |
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Posted: 2/21/2007 5:46:04 PM EDT
[#48]
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII (it's a blue wall....) 
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Posted: 2/21/2007 8:15:34 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 2/21/2007 8:41:15 PM EDT
[#50]
I can't speak for the smaller cities, but even if I 'take' you to jail, I still have to get you past the Jail LT. A good LT, in my opinion, would look at my affidavit and tell me to take you home (very embarassing in itself) because he knows (says) the judge will not take the charge.
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