After years of trying to push a concealed carry bill through Springfield and countless committees on the subject, I have to point out a recurring problem we had.

The Colleges!  Every time we would get close to getting something passed, they would either put pressure on legislators or leadership.  Often, they would send their lackeys to committee to testify against concealed carry and proclaim they didn't want it allowed on their property PERIOD!

Now, I know of some colleges that are trying to get on the band wagon to teach the Concealed Carry Classes.  I SAY NO! It is the ultimate in hypocrisy.  
You won't allow carry on campus and you have opposed it at every opportunity...I'm not rewarding you!

So, if the business wanting your concealed carry dollars doesn't allow concealed carry...Give them the boot and tell them why!

most of the adult education type classes taught through community colleges have very little to do with the college itself. they collect the money (or some of it) and sometimes provide a classroom, but mostly it is the instructors gig.

community colleges are not the enemy.

I can't speak directly to the community colleges...We at IllinoisCarry are starting to poll the colleges to see their current positions...Meanwhile...there is this:

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2013-02-19/illinois-colleges-want-ability-regulate-guns-campuses.html

Jerry Blakemore, an attorney for Northern Illinois University, who represented all of the state's public universities at the hearing, testified college campuses are sensitive places “which allow us to provide reasonable
regulation of firearms, including and up to prohibitions."


Glenn Poshard, SIU, said “. . . we do believe that universities represent an exempted area.”  He pushed the hardest against carry on campus.



http://collegepresidentsforgunsafety.org/

• Ensuring the safety of our communities by opposing legislation allowing guns on our campuses and in our classrooms

Raymond E. Crossman, Adler School of Professional Psychology (IL)
Steven Bahls, Augustana College (IL)
Rebecca Sherrick, Aurora University (IL)
William J. Carroll, Benedictine University (IL)
Miriam Pride, Blackburn College (IL)
John Johnson, Concordia University Chicago (IL)
Alan Ray, Elmhurst College (IL)
J. David Arnold, Eureka College (IL)
Axel Steuer, Illinois College (IL)
Jerry Corcoran, Illinois Valley Community College (IL)
John L. Anderson, Illinois Institute of Technology, (IL)
Richard F. Wilson, Illinois Wesleyan University (IL)
Teresa L. Amott, Knox College (IL)
Stephen D. Schutt, Lake Forest College (IL)
James M. Dennis, McKendree University (IL)
Robert A. Gervasi, Quincy University (IL)
Charles R. Middleton, Roosevelt University (IL)
Susan Henking, Shimer College (IL)
Philip G. Ryken, Wheaton College (IL)

why create enemies where they don't currently exist?

to survive in this state the community college boards and administrators are going to have to toe the line or they risk retaliation from the state.

that does not mean they are actively doing much of anything against us.

we can probably change them into active enemies if you want to though. you might get a few extra students out of it and maybe that is worth it to you, but I don't see it as benefiting the gun owning public at large.

To insinuate this is my motive is absolutely insulting and I don't appreciate it.  I haven't spent the past several years sitting behind a key board second guessing the folks that got this done in the state.... instead I've been in the meetings with the lobbyists,  attended and testified in committees, talked with countless legislators, helped author previous carry bills, organized dozens of town hall meetings as well as IGOLD, helped put together lawsuits including the Shepard & McDonald cases....And all with no pay!

All that being said...My only motivation is to keep ANY reward from going to those who oppose our rights and CONTINUE to oppose our rights! There won't be any of this...well we got the law passed so let's be friends...NOPE!  They (not sure if it is all) have been our enemies and if they don't support our rights...we don't support them.

+1

now that the shoe is on the other foot colleges want to cash in! must say im not surprised in this state! i say give them respect and nothing else. if you can't carry on campus you shouldn't be able to learn about carrying on campus. hypocrites be damned.



keep up the good work mike!

Hear, Hear!!!! Absolutely and unequivocally agree

these kind of classes have almost nothing to do with the school itself. many times they are not even taught at the school. they are run by the instructors and basically the school takes a cut for advertising them in the catalog. It is akin to advertising in the school paper.

Personally, I would like to see gun safety and CC classes listed in the catalog right next to yoga and tennis lessons. It makes it seem like a normal thing, which it is. The more people get used to the idea of guns being around the better.

Why is it that some of us will cut off our nose to spite our face every time? And over nothing.

change the title to coal mine technology and its the same story...

I know here locally, the JR Collages have been rather aggressive in getting classes set up.  I don't really think they are doing it to further our cause.  I think they do it because it is good for their bottom line.  When I in Carbondale getting my fingerprints taken for the instructor certification, there was a guy in there crowing about getting a contract with SIU to teach classes.  SIU was the worst opposition  to passage of the carry law!  

I really don't think any gun owner's noses will come off if we don't support college concealed carry classes.  We managed to get the law past even with their opposition and we can get the folks educated without supporting their anti-gun agendas.  If there are any colleges that support right to carry and are willing to join the charge to get carry on campus, we'll give them our full support.  But for now, let them feel the displeasure of the gun folks...if they want our gun money...they need to share our gun cause...just like any business that chooses to post "no guns allowed" I encourage boycotting them as well.

what we ought to be doing is making sure every one of these catalogs has several gun safety classes in it, rather than worrying about who might make a few bucks off it. there are a lot of people who see these catalogs that are not gun people but we might be able to get a few of them nudged in our direction. the more non-gun people that take gun classes the better.

you obviously just do not understand how these classes work. the classes are not classes taught by the school or part of some curriculum the school has anything to do with other than administratively. the classes are solely the responsibility of the instructors.

we did not manage to get anything passed. the sole reason the FCCA was passed was because of the courts. our previous efforts to pass something failed on a routine basis and did so for 3 or 4 decades, and would have continued to fail if not for the courts. effort is not the same thing as accomplishment.

It becomes tiresome having to argue and re-explain how this got done.  The courts didn't just jump into the cause and decide to rule in our favor.  This process actually picked up steam when a few folks lit a fire under Illinois on this issue.  The court mandated a date of passage but the fire has been building all along.  The court only mandated a law be passed.  We cold have gotten the Coulerton Chicago law.  But, we got the MUCH less unpleasant Madigan version.  I was there when Madigan stood on the floor and said he had been on the wrong side of the issue.  That our previous majority vote had changed his mind...That was a result of Leadership (and I don't mean the keyboard commandos that do nothing but second guess/criticize) and the diligent work of gun folks throughout the state.

We are a part of leadership.  My wife & I were the ones the had a relationship with Mary Shepard and first approached her about the case.  Same with Otis McDonald.  So, these things didn't just "happen".  There was a lot of hard work and hours that went into all of it.  It was a culmination of everything that brought us to this point.  I can tell you from personal experience that the know it all keyboard critics have done nothing to further the cause and instead have burnt valuable time in having to address their misguided rantings.and misinformation.

the 2a to you is nothing? if there is nothing to be gained from these classes why all of a sudden the change of heart and interest from the very institutions who have fought to keep ccw banned in this state? couldn't be the money trail could it? the school paper wouldn't get printed if there wasn't something in it for the institution. like more enrollment = more money! colleges are like casinos... they wouldn't offer it to you if they weren't making money off it. if people want to know about guns there are plenty of places to learn about them.

this guy gets it! im not in the habit of helping 2a enemies make money off the 2a!

i agree. i want to people giving those classes passionate about the 2a, not some college just trying to generate revenue! if law abiding citizens want firearms training there are plenty of places to go. again if you can't carry on campus you shouldn't learn about it on campus!



this bs in this is really getting old!!! so the great state of illinois and overlord cullerton and kick-back madigan would of approved ccw had nothing been done to prompt them? is that what you're really trying to tell us? it had nothing to do with the nra, isra, sheperd vs madigan, moore vs madigan etc etc had nothing to do with ccw passing? you and the rest of the non believers need to take off the rose colored glasses before we lose all our rights. this is illinois, there is no magic bullet to wave around and magically change the anti-gunners minds. now other then posting on arfcom what have you done personally to help ccw get passed into law? its real easy to sit behind a keyboard and criticise. TO DAMN EASY!!!

Swanhunter I could not agree more.

I am telling you that nothing "we" did would have mattered one iota in getting CC if not for the courts (which is what I said in my post that you may or may not be arguing against). We had been on the path to CC for 4+ decades and we were not even close. W/O the courts we would still be trying and failing miserably every year as has happened for many decades.

As for the colleges making a few bucks off of CC. I just do not care. It is clear that the people arguing against them are clueless about how these kind of classes actually work and are unwilling to learn. I believe that having gun related classes in the adult education catalogs will bring additional people into the classes so that it won't take away from any instructors potential pool of students so rather than taking money out of the pockets of instructors, it will add to the pool of students and actually make them more money.

You can whine about how hard you worked (and failed) in the past or move forward with the way things really are. This is a huge opportunity for us to move ahead and the greed being displayed by a very few is disgusting to me. The greedy ought to be ashamed of themselves.

so what your saying is shepherd vs madigan, moore vs madigan and other LAWSUITS FILED BY THE PEOPLE OF ILLINOIS (ISRA, NRA ETC ETC) had nothing to do with the courts finally giving illinois ccw?



since all the legal wrangling and lawsuits filled by the people did absolutely squat, please tell us what iprompted the courts out of the blue to finally give the citizens of illinois ccw? i respectfully await your reply.

I'm sure you have a special grasp on what is and has been going on in IL gun rights from the lofty perch of your keyboard.   You have demeaned those that have made this happen and I'm not talking about judges.  I won't continue addressing your continued criticisms and we will let the folks decide who has chosen the right road to the success we have achieved and the success we are striving to achieve in the future.
 
Those of us who actually work at this process refer to folks that do nothing but complain and invite division as "asset burners" because all they do is distract us from our work.  There are a few folks (both sides of the gun issue) that love the arguing and negative attention...I do not.

Greedy???I don't think that would quite apply to two people who have worked full time for 9 years totally without pay!  

And..technically by your definition of "how hard you worked (and failed) in the past to move forward"...This would mean that anyone that builds a house has failed until it is finished.  Anyone baking a cake has failed until it is iced and ready to eat.  For your edification, failure doesn't occur until you try to meet a goal...don't meet it...and stop trying.  That sir didn't happen!  

Agreed.

I dunno...using some of my remaining my IVG hours to have the State pay for my last 8 hours of training would have a delicious irony to it.

We would not be where we are without the tireless efforts of Mike and Valinda, Mary Shepard, Otis McDonald, Todd V, and the rest. You have my unending gratitude and respect.

That being said, we need to start winning the war on  PR.  If the only thing kids ever hear is that guns are icky, then we lose. Teach the classes everywhere they can be taught. Especially in liberal strongholds, let people see how wrong, just how effing wrong the antis are and we will win, not just the battle, but the war.

My $.02

And what the heck is going on with Poshard? I thought he was on our side?

He was in our face every time we ran a bill.  He's the worst.  

They tried to make make the law so that cars with guns in them had to park in a separate "gun only" parking area to keep them segregated from non-gun cars.  How do you think that would have worked out.

As far as winning the PR battle, it won't happen through the schools.  They won't be advocates.  They will only suck the money out of the market place and continue their liberal anti-gun shenanigans and laugh all the way to the bank.

I was talking to a college employee this week and he said the area JR Colleges plan to jump all over the carry classes until demand diminishes and then drop them.  He said they stated that there is too much money to be made right now to pass it up.  
 I still say...No College Carry Classes!

Sorry, I didn't know that about Poshard. I thought when he ran for Governor he was pro conceal carry. Apparently he has changed (not surprising that would happen with a politician) or I was misinformed.

As for the rest I'll follow  your lead, you've got better intel than me!

Actually, he did an about face during the campaign.  We weren't active at that time but he sure made the gun folks at the time livid.  I think he pretty much stabbed us in the back.

I'd rather not get involved in Illinois politics but being as I am here right now learning gunsmithing, as Illinois has one of the only 5 colleges with an accredited gunsmithing program, I don't see a problem with the school I am at teaching concealed carry.

After thinking about this a while my opinion of Jr Colleges teaching CCW classes is - Fuck 'um.  It's way past time to pick sides. They already chose and are *not* on our side, but they're glad to take our money.

Just.Say.No.

details man details!

Wabash valley college in Mt. Carmel, IL is one of only 5 colleges nation wide where you can actually get a degree in gunsmithing. it's 16 hours a week for 2 semesters on the gunsmithing portion (if you want the degree you also have to complete your basic general studies courses). the course focuses mainly on machining (lathe and mill work) but also covers refinishing and repairs. I'm enjoying it quite a bit and we are about to start our first of three firearm builds of the course (1911, ar 15, and bolt action.)

since my career as a carpenter is about done i must look into this further!