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Posted: 1/5/2012 5:35:00 AM EDT
http://gma.yahoo.com/okla-woman-shoots-kills-intruder-911-operators-okay-091106413.html
Can you imagine calling 999 and asking the operator if its OK to shoot an intruder ?

.... it certainly wouldn't be the intruder kicking down your door
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 5:50:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fcpinternet:
http://gma.yahoo.com/okla-woman-shoots-kills-intruder-911-operators-okay-091106413.html
Can you imagine calling 999 and asking the operator if its OK to shoot an intruder ?

.... it certainly wouldn't be the intruder kicking down your door

Good shoot, even here. S.3 Criminal Law Act.......A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large.

See also:

Article 2, Human Rights Act
Self Defence at Common Law
Honestly held belief

'McKinley told ABC News Oklahoma City affiliate KOCO that she quickly got her 12 gauge, went into her bedroom and got a pistol, put the bottle in the baby's mouth and called 911.'

Baby care accessories available at all good branches of Mothercare.........



Link Posted: 1/5/2012 1:10:44 PM EDT
So Icarus, this has reminded me of a video which made me fairly uncomfortable the first time I watched it...



This could have been ended a lot sooner, and without the risk of serious injury to a police officer if the guy doing the videoing had an FAC and was a decent shot... OK, it would have been messier for the dude with the machete and (with hindsight) amazingly in this case no-one was seriously hurt. But really... If you're equipped, where the police clearly are not, do you have a moral obligation to assist?

Imagine calling 999 (instead of 911) and asking, can I shoot the guy threatening the police with a machete?
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 1:52:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2012 1:54:02 PM EDT by B_R]
Originally Posted By lynk:
So Icarus, this has reminded me of a video which made me fairly uncomfortable the first time I watched it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnhdFVcMLcg

This could have been ended a lot sooner, and without the risk of serious injury to a police officer if the guy doing the videoing had an FAC and was a decent shot... OK, it would have been messier for the dude with the machete and (with hindsight) amazingly in this case no-one was seriously hurt. But really... If you're equipped, where the police clearly are not, do you have a moral obligation to assist?

Imagine calling 999 (instead of 911) and asking, can I shoot the guy threatening the police with a machete?


This is something I have thought about in the past. At any given moment there will be someone (albeit .0001% of the population) who goes tonto and starts shooting people or be considering it seriously. Likewise at any given moment there will be guys in possession of firearms at comps, hunting, at clubs or en-route to same. surely its only a matter of time before they meet ? Call me paranoid but when at a big bisley event like the phoenix and there are literally thousands present, I cannot help wondering if statistics mean one might be on the edge !
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 1:55:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lynk:
So Icarus, this has reminded me of a video which made me fairly uncomfortable the first time I watched it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnhdFVcMLcg

This could have been ended a lot sooner, and without the risk of serious injury to a police officer if the guy doing the videoing had an FAC and was a decent shot... OK, it would have been messier for the dude with the machete and (with hindsight) amazingly in this case no-one was seriously hurt. But really... If you're equipped, where the police clearly are not, do you have a moral obligation to assist?

Imagine calling 999 (instead of 911) and asking, can I shoot the guy threatening the police with a machete?

Calling 999 and asking to shoot is irrelevant as no-one can give you permission to do so. Even a Police Officer cannot be ordered to open fire. Whilst the man is still and not advancing on anyone he is contained. As soon as he advances in a threatening manner such that any person forms a reasonably held belief that anyone is in immediate danger of death or serious injury (which did occur during that incident several times in my view), then yes that person could legitimately shoot him, or use reasonable force against him. A firearm against a swinging machete would likely not be unreasonable.

There is actually an offence of failing to assist a Constable when called upon to do so, but for obvious reasons I have never known it charged.

Had ARV's got there I would anticipate him being tasered immediately. If that had failed and he continued to be a threat it is likely he would have been shot. Those coppers were very lucky that no-one got injured or worse.

Sad thing is that had a MOP stepped in and shot him, at the appropriate moment, depending on where in the country it happened, it is likely they would be arrested. Ultimately I have no doubt they would either be released without charge or if charged, acquitted, but it shouldn't even get that far, especially with so many expert witnesses around.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 1:57:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By B_R:
Originally Posted By lynk:
So Icarus, this has reminded me of a video which made me fairly uncomfortable the first time I watched it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnhdFVcMLcg

This could have been ended a lot sooner, and without the risk of serious injury to a police officer if the guy doing the videoing had an FAC and was a decent shot... OK, it would have been messier for the dude with the machete and (with hindsight) amazingly in this case no-one was seriously hurt. But really... If you're equipped, where the police clearly are not, do you have a moral obligation to assist?

Imagine calling 999 (instead of 911) and asking, can I shoot the guy threatening the police with a machete?


This is something I have thought about in the past. At any given moment there will be someone (albeit .0001% of the population) who goes tonto and starts shooting people or be considering it seriously. Likewise at any given moment there will be guys in possession of firearms at comps, hunting, at clubs or en-route to same. surely its only a matter of time before they meet ? Call me paranoid but when at a big bisley event like the phoenix and there are literally thousands present, I cannot help wondering if statistics mean one might be on the edge !
I'm sure the antis will relish your opinion...........

Link Posted: 1/5/2012 2:04:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2012 2:10:12 PM EDT by B_R]
Maybe. Dont get me wrong. I .st most of my fellow shooters. Its just about the statistical chances of the location, the murdere and armed witnessess being at the same location an
Sorry - this phone ismakes posting and editing dificult !

Was just wondering on the statistical probabilities of madman, victims, witnessess all being in the same location. And that location being a comp. And the witnesses being in a position to be able to take out the murderer at an early stage.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 3:09:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2012 3:10:47 PM EDT by IcarusY625]

Originally Posted By B_R:
Maybe. Dont get me wrong. I .st most of my fellow shooters. Its just about the statistical chances of the location, the murdere and armed witnessess being at the same location an
Sorry - this phone ismakes posting and editing dificult !

Was just wondering on the statistical probabilities of madman, victims, witnessess all being in the same location. And that location being a comp. And the witnesses being in a position to be able to take out the murderer at an early stage.

You should be comforted that most mass killers seem to be sad, cowardly bastards who don't usually commit their crimes amongst groups of potential victims who are in a position to stop them, preferring the vulnerable and defenceless....

....and I think you should stop thinking
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 4:14:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 6:27:42 AM EDT
Tony, thats fair enouhh - you think what you will of my post. But I was only pondering on what is a possible scenario. We dont live in a perfect world and we have not seen the last attrocity.

And Icarus makes a valid point but forgets one small issue - the concept of suicide by cop. Some deranged individual pick just the right location and tatgets to ensure return fire !!
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 6:33:05 AM EDT
Tony, thats fair enouhh - you think what you will of my post. But I was only pondering on what is a possible scenario. We dont live in a perfect world and we have not seen the last attrocity.

And Icarus makes a valid point but forgets one small issue - the concept of suicide by cop. Some deranged individual pick just the right location and tatgets to ensure return fire !! They want to die after murdering and dont have the balls to do it themselves or have some twisted logic that believes its better to be killed than commit suicide.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 7:11:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 9:13:21 AM EDT
I hear what you say. But in the great scheme of things it wont make a difference. A lot if not most of the anti gun lobby are totally fixed in their views. We can go 10 years without incident and they will ignore that but focus on one criminal rather than thousands of law abiding sportsmen.

And i am sure that at least one of them has already contemplated this scenario. I am not going to start thinking that my insights are so profound that nobody else has not already beaten me to it !

As to ammunition for the antis - not so long ago we had guys here expressing various wsys to "deal with" an individual concerned in animal cruelty. some were veiled and some were far from veiled. All involved injury and death ! Nobody was worried about antis reading that post as far as i recall.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 9:33:37 AM EDT
I believe that there was a gamekeeper with a deer rifle at the scene as Hungerford started to unfold, and could have shot him after the first one or two people were killed. The police wouldn,t let him do it. Prefferring to wait for armed response. Not a criticism from me, just a point.

I was put in a situation myself, not long back, when a neighbours staffy tore another dog to pieces in their front garden. I,ve seen some bad dog fights in my time but this was unreal. The staffy had completely lost it, and not for the first time. Buckets of water first, then a plank of wood. I went into the house and got out an ash "knob" stick [like the one bill sykes carried in Oliver ] The next step was the buckmark. Luckily the stick worked.
I believe i would have acted lawfully in shooting the animal. I have a condition on my license which allows" the shooting of animals for the protection of humans or other animals" I,m also covered as an RFD to discharge a firearm anywhere i deem safe to do so.
Then the ARV,s rolled up.
I,m very glad it didn,t come to that. Not a nice situation to be in, and it upset me greatly. I wouldn,t have wanted to think it was a human life to have to take instead otf an animal.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 10:57:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 10:59:21 AM EDT by UKjohn]

Originally Posted By baldie:
I believe that there was a gamekeeper with a deer rifle at the scene as Hungerford started to unfold, and could have shot him after the first one or two people were killed. The police wouldn,t let him do it. Prefferring to wait for armed response. Not a criticism from me, just a point.

I was put in a situation myself, not long back, when a neighbours staffy tore another dog to pieces in their front garden. I,ve seen some bad dog fights in my time but this was unreal. The staffy had completely lost it, and not for the first time. Buckets of water first, then a plank of wood. I went into the house and got out an ash "knob" stick [like the one bill sykes carried in Oliver ] The next step was the buckmark. Luckily the stick worked.
I believe i would have acted lawfully in shooting the animal. I have a condition on my license which allows" the shooting of animals for the protection of humans or other animals" I,m also covered as an RFD to discharge a firearm anywhere i deem safe to do so.
Then the ARV,s rolled up.
I,m very glad it didn,t come to that. Not a nice situation to be in, and it upset me greatly. I wouldn,t have wanted to think it was a human life to have to take instead otf an animal.
on my way home from a farm i was stopped by the police as a sheep had been run over and had its ass end spread down the road , i offered to dispatch it , worst mistake ever , even the owner / land owner said yes, the policeman just kept saying a vet was on his way and we can't move it took 20 mins before it finally stopped snorting and i had a policeman stood by me the whole time , best do fuck all and let the pro's deal with it .

as for the vid posted above , have you seen this
link

eddit to fix link
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 12:56:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By UKjohn:

Originally Posted By baldie:
I believe that there was a gamekeeper with a deer rifle at the scene as Hungerford started to unfold, and could have shot him after the first one or two people were killed. The police wouldn,t let him do it. Prefferring to wait for armed response. Not a criticism from me, just a point.

I was put in a situation myself, not long back, when a neighbours staffy tore another dog to pieces in their front garden. I,ve seen some bad dog fights in my time but this was unreal. The staffy had completely lost it, and not for the first time. Buckets of water first, then a plank of wood. I went into the house and got out an ash "knob" stick [like the one bill sykes carried in Oliver ] The next step was the buckmark. Luckily the stick worked.
I believe i would have acted lawfully in shooting the animal. I have a condition on my license which allows" the shooting of animals for the protection of humans or other animals" I,m also covered as an RFD to discharge a firearm anywhere i deem safe to do so.
Then the ARV,s rolled up.
I,m very glad it didn,t come to that. Not a nice situation to be in, and it upset me greatly. I wouldn,t have wanted to think it was a human life to have to take instead otf an animal.
on my way home from a farm i was stopped by the police as a sheep had been run over and had its ass end spread down the road , i offered to dispatch it , worst mistake ever , even the owner / land owner said yes, the policeman just kept saying a vet was on his way and we can't move it took 20 mins before it finally stopped snorting and i had a policeman stood by me the whole time , best do fuck all and let the pro's deal with it .

as for the vid posted above , have you seen this
link

eddit to fix link

That one's done the rounds several times..................
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