Hi everyone.

I live in Oregon and have recently sold a few rifles.  It is always a good idea to have a bill of sale when you sell a rifle in a private party transaction.  That way, you have some proof that you did in fact sell the firearm…just in case the firearm turns up somewhere later that it shouldn’t!

In my webpage (link below), if you look towards the bottom of the page in the “Terms”, you’ll see a link to a bill of sale I use to sell rifles in private party transactions.  Feel free to download that bill of sale to use for yourselves.

BTW, if you wonder why I’m posting this, it’s because a friend of mine recently said when he sells rifles in Oregon he just collects the money, and that’s that.  I warned him of the potential legal hassles he faces if he can’t prove he sold a rifle that was later misused.  And in that spirit, I’m offering up the BOS I use in case any of you also neglect the all-important paperwork end of these transactions.

Also, for the moderators…This is not an advertisement, and I am not selling anything!!!  I really am posting this as a genuine “public service” for fellow gun owners in Oregon who might sell a rifle from time to time.  So please don’t delete this thinking it is an ad.  It isn’t.
     

Thanks! I may just have use for this.

Not sure if this link will work, if not I will find another host.

Bill of sale PDF

The only criticism I have to offer (that's what you are looking for, right? ) is that you are only recording the purchaser's info. If you are going to go through the trouble of making a bill of sale why not have both parties sign so that there is CYA for both?

If "buyer" has serial number ran some day and finds out the firearm was stolen he has nothing to prove that he bought it from you.

By the way I'm not for or against doing a BOS. I don't hold it against a seller who wants this added feeling of legal security. When in Washington I only required it from a buyer when it was a handgun I had bought from a dealer simply because Washington has handgun registration.

/\ So in turn you are saying "I never owned that firearm"

I guess thats one way to cover your ass.

Quoted: The only criticism I have to offer (that's what you are looking for, right? ) is that you are only recording the purchaser's info. If you are going to go through the trouble of making a bill of sale why not have both parties sign so that there is CYA for both? If "buyer" has serial number ran some day and finds out the firearm was stolen he has nothing to prove that he bought it from you. By the way I'm not for or against doing a BOS. I don't hold it against a seller who wants this added feeling of legal security. When in Washington I only required it from a buyer when it was a handgun I had bought from a dealer simply because Washington has handgun registration.

Point well-taken on the signature issue, JAFO.  I have always stapled my business card on these, but it wouldn't hurt to list that info on the actual BOS itself.

Quoted: /\ So in turn you are saying "I never owned that firearm" I guess thats one way to cover your ass.

BTW, the link didn't work.

Making someone sign something is a bitch move in my opinion and is complete unnessacary.

Quoted: Making someone sign something is a bitch move in my opinion and is complete unnessacary.

I don't think anyone is "making" someone sign something.

Quoted: Quoted: Making someone sign something is a bitch move in my opinion and is complete unnessacary. I don't think anyone is "making" someone sign something.

Slippery slope....I'm just glad there are still gun owners like me who would NEVER dare ask for this kind of info and would hope the same would be shown to me.

Damn WS!  Have you looked in the mirror?  Your da most hoodiest hoodlum on dees here boards.  I would have to see your ID fo sho!

Quoted: Making someone sign something is a bitch move in my opinion and is complete unnessacary.

So, you think that a person selling a firearm, who wants to walk away from that transaction with actual proof that he did indeed sell that firearm, is not being reasonable but is instead acting like a “bitch”?  Wow!

I hope for your sake that you never sell a firearm, even unintentionally, to a person who is not lawfully entitled to buy it and/or who uses it in the commission of a crime.  Because even if you are cleared of any criminal wrong-doing with that sale, a plaintiff’s lawyer is going to LOVE the fact that you were so careless with the transaction, that you didn’t even ask him if he was legally able to own the gun, and see fit to document that fact with a simple bill of sale.  He’ll have a jury eating out of his hands with that one!

But I dunno.  Maybe you think ambulance chasers don’t make enough money already, and you’d like to increase your chances of financing their next vacation to Europe?  ‘Cause like it or not, we live in a country where something like this WOULD get you sued.  So, you can choose to acknowledge that unfortunate fact and be smart about it, or you can profess righteous indignation, call someone a “bitch”, and put yourself at the mercy of someone who would love to rob you of every penny you own.  Needless to say, I wouldn't make the same choice as you.

P.S.  I don’t “make” anyone sign anything.  Potential buyers are absolutely free to not sign my bill of sale.  Just like I am absolutely free to refuse to sell it to them if they don’t.  Ain’t the free market a great thing???

Might as well have full on gun registration by your logic.

If you were asking for things required BY LAW it wouldn't be an issue.  You are going well beyond that.

And what is all this nonsense about ambulance chasers?  How is having a reciept vs. saying "yes I sold it, I don't remember who it was, and I'm not legally required to have that information." going to be any different?  

I think hes talking about liability issues.

Quoted: Might as well have full on gun registration by your logic. If you were asking for things required BY LAW it wouldn't be an issue.  You are going well beyond that. And what is all this nonsense about ambulance chasers?  How is having a reciept vs. saying "yes I sold it, I don't remember who it was, and I'm not legally required to have that information." going to be any different?

Huh?!?  Do you mean to argue that because I want proof that I am no longer personally in possession of a particular firearm myself, that I therefore advocate full gun registration???  Wow, man.  That’s a pretty incredible leap of “logic”.  It’s also a straw man argument, since I did not say nor even hint that I support full gun registration.  Can you explain how – as a private citizen wanting a purchaser of one of my firearms to sign a bill of sale proving that I am selling the rifle – that is the same thing as me reporting that sale to the government for tracking purposes?!?  Especially considering that no one aside from me is ever going to see that bill of sale, unless I get sued? (In which case I would have been very smart for getting that bill of sale in the first place.)  Seriously WS4...you’re confusing two very different issues here.    

WS4, have you ever been to a grocery store after they mopped the floor?  Did you see a yellow cone that said something like, “Floor is wet and slippery.  Use Caution”.  Tell me why you think they put that cone there?  They certainly aren’t required by law to do so.  So then why do they?  I’ll tell you why: Because if they DON’T put the cone there, and somebody falls and bust their ass, guess what happens?  That’s right: Lawsuit!  Likewise, you’re right…I am not required by law to collect a bill of sale when I sell a rifle.  But as I explained to you in my previous post, not collecting a bill of sale can very much be like mopping the grocery store floor and not leaving a warning cone in place.  You don’t HAVE to do it…but you will increase your chances of getting sued if you don’t, and something unexpected happens.  I already explained all of this to you in my previous post.

As for your last comment…I’m just going to assume you’ve never been on the receiving end of a good plaintiff’s lawyer as he tries to paint you as being the anti-Christ in front of a jury.  And in this regard, you’re confusing the criminal implications with the civil implications.  From a criminal law perspective, you’d be right…there would be no difference between having the bill of sale and simply saying that you sold it.  But from a civil law perspective, a good ambulance chasing attorney would convince a jury (and easily so) that because you didn’t make an effort to determine the legality of the purchase, and even though you weren’t required to by law, you were nonetheless reckless, careless, woefully negligent, operating regardless  of concerns for public safety…and moreover that you steal money from the church collection plate, you take ice cream away from kids on hot summer days, you rip the heads off of little girls’ Barbie dolls, and you push old people down the stairs in their wheelchairs!  In other words, a good attorney will be able to paint you as the most evil person to ever walk the face of the earth…all over what YOU believe to be small matter.  

You have no idea how this whole lawsuit shakedown thing works, do you WS4?

Quoted: I think hes talking about liability issues.

Bingo!  

Stevie...no offense man, but why all the confrontation with everyone all of a sudden? You've been registered for a year almost and all of a sudden you show up in the last 48 hours arguing with anyone that will talk to you in the HTF... Just curious.

My personal thought is if I sell a gun to someone who I think I really need their info  later legal reasons, I shouldn't be selling them the gun in the first place.

Notice I didn't use the word "Bitch" in my reply.

Quoted: My personal thought is if I sell a gun to someone who I think I really need their info  later legal reasons, I shouldn't be selling them the gun in the first place. Notice I didn't use the word "Bitch" in my reply.

Yes you did. It just translates from "pribbz" on the left.

Quoted: Stevie...no offense man, but why all the confrontation with everyone all of a sudden? You've been registered for a year almost and all of a sudden you show up in the last 48 hours arguing with anyone that will talk to you in the HTF... Just curious.

Ziess,

I'm not looking for arguments on purpose.  I argue all day for a living, and I think because of that I'm naturally attracted to the most controversial comments!  LOL!

You're right though.  I should just chill out.  I'm actually not an asshole...I'm a pretty mellow dude, although you probably wouldn't know it from my comments here today.

And you wanna hear something funny?  (Well, sort of funny.)  I just sold a rifle not even an hour ago to another arfcom member.  And guess what?  I forgot my damn bill of sale!  (And yes, I still sold the rifle)

I just sold a rifle not even an hour ago to another arfcom member.  And guess what?  I forgot my damn bill of sale!  (And yes, I still sold the rifle)

Aw hell yeah, thanks man! its evil badass!!!

C'mon Cape, C'mon WS4LIF!!  
Lets go rob da liquor store and get us some hookers n blow!

Just for argument's sake, unless you get ID with matching signature, a BOS doesn't *prove* anything - they can be written by anyone at anytime for any reason.  Just because I can write a BOS to some guy named WS doesn't mean he actually purchased it, just means I wrote a BOS and had "somebody" sign it.  While I wouldn't argue with you if you want to do it, the *safest* way to transfer (since you're getting ID already anyway) is to fill out the form and call it in.  Not that I'm necessarily in favor of that, just that a (non ID matched) BOS doesn't prove anything and as last registered owner - they'll be knocking at your door and not the "John Doe" who "bought" it.

My way of dealing with this is to simply never sell any weapons, never have and don't plan to in the future.

Full disclosure: I have not yet read the BOS form above so if ID with matching sig is included...

J

Quoted: Quoted: I just sold a rifle not even an hour ago to another arfcom member.  And guess what?  I forgot my damn bill of sale!  (And yes, I still sold the rifle) Aw hell yeah, thanks man! its evil badass!!! C'mon Cape, C'mon WS4LIF!!   Lets go rob da liquor store and get us some hookers n blow! LOL But seriously, to me, gun ownership is about protecting the second amendment. And there is nothing about hunting, collecting, or sport shooting in there. When you keep unnecessary records the only thing thats going to happen is that your going to hand those over someday. Maybe it's to cover your ass, maybe it's because your being forced to....I'd personally rather not even have to think about it and not have anything. And legally there is nothing wrong with that. When gun confiscation happens (and some day it will), your going to be the first to not only hand over your guns but all the records and trail of every gun you have been in position of. To me, thats not right and is against everything the 2nd amendment stands for.  But hey, YOUR ass is covered....so screw everyone else.

Westside, I understand your point of view.  You gotta understand though...I work in the legal field, and look at the issue from that perspective.  While I would like to agree with you that there is nothing legally wrong with not keeping good personal records, I know that the unfortunate legal reality is that not keeping good records has at least the potential to come back and bite you in the ass.  Negligence cases involving the sale of firearms is a growth industry for shady lawyers, and if you don't believe me, go google this topic yourself.  You might be shocked at what you can be sued for when it comes to transferring firearms.  Again, I'm not saying this is right.  I'm just saying that that's the way it is.

BTW, I predict that within the next two or three years, the so-called "gun show loophole" (which deals with private sales in general, not just at gun shows) will be closed, and private party rifle transactions will have to be handled just like handgun transactions are now.  We'll have to do it through a licensed dealer.  And when that time comes, this will all be a moot point anyway.  I don't agree with this either, but I think that day is coming sooner rather than later.

Oh, and Westside...sorry if I seemed abrasive earlier.  Seriously man...I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, even if I came off like one.  Hopefully there's no hard feelings.  You made some good points, and I totally understand where you're coming from.

Quoted: My personal thought is if I sell a gun to someone who I think I really need their info  later legal reasons, I shouldn't be selling them the gun in the first place.

Spot on.

Quoted: I argue all day for a living,

That explains eveything!

Quoted: Quoted: I argue all day for a living, That explains eveything!

But what is YOUR excuse?







(or mine, come to think of it)