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Posted: 6/13/2009 1:35:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 1:46:06 PM EST by ramster]
I knew Niles as he was a veteran and a member of the American Legion in Stanwood. I would see him and have a drink with him pretty much every week over this last year. Yes he did drink a good amount but he did so like many others I have met that severed our country… he could never get over the shit that happened during the war… sucks… We were not there to see how all this unfolded… seems like there could have been a better way of dealing with this… and if a more peaceful action would have been taken Niles would still be alive. I know one thing for sure he will be missed by many! Shame he is gone!

Sorry forgot to add the video link: Komo New video
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 2:27:10 PM EST
Did you see Patch-O walk by in his goat roper in the video?
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 3:00:37 PM EST
I'm truly sorry for the loss of your friend. It is always tragic when someone loses their life, especially in a violent manner. Sounded like a bad situation and I'm glad that no one else got hurt.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 3:03:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By HABU:
Did you see Patch-O walk by in his goat roper in the video?


Yes... although I wish I would have foundout about Niles death a diffrent way. I also saw this info posted in the Seattle news paper:

He was a very good man that was put in a lose lose situation by the Everett Police Department.

His car was boxed in between two other cars in the parking lot, the fence in front of him & three police cars behind him. When one officer tasered him through the open window that he had willfully rolled down to explain himself. His body Tensed & Shook from the taser prong in him & the car lurched forward as his foot shook.

The second officer then fired 6 shots two in the back of the head, four in his back through the back of his seat & through the back window of his Corvette.


Again many of you know me. All my family has server in the military and many in government and law enforcement… many of my friends are in law enforcement, FBI, etc… I have had a lot of training in such areas too, so I know the job can be real tough… but man this just seems crazy. Like I said I knew Niles. He told me a bunch about his life over this last year… I still can’t believe he’s gone now.

Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:17:23 PM EST
Sorry to hear about your friend.

If that's all there is to the shooting then someone ought to be headed for jail.

I know a guy shot in a similar way by the cops (sides of car and back) and they didn't do anything to them. He only got 6 month for fleeing the scene and still has the scars in both arms. Lucky for him he was wearing a vest.

Link Posted: 6/13/2009 10:14:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By libertynews:
Sorry to hear about your friend.

If that's all there is to the shooting then someone ought to be headed for jail.

I know a guy shot in a similar way by the cops (sides of car and back) and they didn't do anything to them. He only got 6 month for fleeing the scene and still has the scars in both arms. Lucky for him he was wearing a vest.




Not trying to start a shit storm here, but the part about an innocent bystander being knocked down by the fence after the car smashed into it was left out. Sounds like she was lucky. If she would have been killed if the driver continued and the driver would have lived I'm sure the same people would be crying out for the cops to be fired and face charges. Kinda a lose, lose.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 10:38:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 10:39:08 PM EST by DoberDude]
Originally Posted By Coltsfan:
Originally Posted By libertynews:
Sorry to hear about your friend.

If that's all there is to the shooting then someone ought to be headed for jail.

I know a guy shot in a similar way by the cops (sides of car and back) and they didn't do anything to them. He only got 6 month for fleeing the scene and still has the scars in both arms. Lucky for him he was wearing a vest.




Not trying to start a shit storm here, but the part about an innocent bystander being knocked down by the fence after the car smashed into it was left out. Sounds like she was lucky. If she would have been killed if the driver continued and the driver would have lived I'm sure the same people would be crying out for the cops to be fired and face charges. Kinda a lose, lose.


The woman who was knocked down by the fence was the first one to come out and say the shooting was unecessary.

Link Posted: 6/13/2009 10:50:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By DoberDude:
Originally Posted By Coltsfan:
Originally Posted By libertynews:
Sorry to hear about your friend.

If that's all there is to the shooting then someone ought to be headed for jail.

I know a guy shot in a similar way by the cops (sides of car and back) and they didn't do anything to them. He only got 6 month for fleeing the scene and still has the scars in both arms. Lucky for him he was wearing a vest.




Not trying to start a shit storm here, but the part about an innocent bystander being knocked down by the fence after the car smashed into it was left out. Sounds like she was lucky. If she would have been killed if the driver continued and the driver would have lived I'm sure the same people would be crying out for the cops to be fired and face charges. Kinda a lose, lose.


The woman who was knocked down by the fence was the first one to come out and say the shooting was unecessary.



Thats great, hours after the incident. Not to mention the fact she probably works at the chinese food joint in the mall and has ZERO training or experience with this type of thing. If the cop thought her life was in danger that would explain him firing on the driver. We can sit and what if this all day, but the majority of people in the WAHTF wants the cop strung up and no one has a fucking clue on what really happened because none of us were there. Like I said it is tragic, but the quarterbacking is way out of line.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 10:59:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 10:59:41 PM EST by DoberDude]
Originally Posted By Coltsfan:
Originally Posted By DoberDude:
Originally Posted By Coltsfan:
Originally Posted By libertynews:
Sorry to hear about your friend.

If that's all there is to the shooting then someone ought to be headed for jail.

I know a guy shot in a similar way by the cops (sides of car and back) and they didn't do anything to them. He only got 6 month for fleeing the scene and still has the scars in both arms. Lucky for him he was wearing a vest.




Not trying to start a shit storm here, but the part about an innocent bystander being knocked down by the fence after the car smashed into it was left out. Sounds like she was lucky. If she would have been killed if the driver continued and the driver would have lived I'm sure the same people would be crying out for the cops to be fired and face charges. Kinda a lose, lose.


The woman who was knocked down by the fence was the first one to come out and say the shooting was unecessary.



Thats great, hours after the incident. Not to mention the fact she probably works at the chinese food joint in the mall and has ZERO training or experience with this type of thing. If the cop thought her life was in danger that would explain him firing on the driver. We can sit and what if this all day, but the majority of people in the WAHTF wants the cop strung up and no one has a fucking clue on what really happened because none of us were there. Like I said it is tragic, but the quarterbacking is way out of line.

With all due respect Mr coltsfan you're doing some quaterbacking/speculation yourself. This woman was right there and saw everything. But when she gives her opinion on the event, according to you, she works in the mall at a chinese joint and has no training or clue? She was THERE. You WERE NOT there. Are you LE ?

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 1:00:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By Coltsfan:
I'm truly sorry for the loss of your friend. It is always tragic when someone loses their life, especially in a violent manner. Sounded like a bad situation and I'm glad that no one else got hurt.


Yes it is very sad... spoke with many folks today and all were very upset... in fact a month or so ago Niles had told me about this place that this event took place and stated that a few folks there were giving him shit and he was upset about it. I don't know all the details but I do remember asking him why he would even go there... the wife and I have been there before and hadn't gone back... he went there because he knew friends from way back... anyway it sucks that this ended up happening... I mean the man had some foods and a few drinks and the nexthing ya know he is faced with this situation... regardless of what anyone here or elsewhere wants to say, Niles is not here... he is gone forever... that hurts! I sure wish this never happened... bad for everyone... no one wins and many around him will feel a hole in their life's... Niles is gone!

Ya know.... chit the power is about gone on my back up... more later..
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 1:41:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 1:43:23 AM EST by mike_0120]
Originally Posted By DoberDude:
This woman was right there and saw everything.




She saw everything? Hmmm.... I bet she had a great view with her face in the dirt.

Who's quarterbacking now? You, me, everybody.....
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 3:52:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:28:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
If you guys want to argue about all of this, start a new thread. A member has lost his friend, this is not the thread for BS.

We had a thread. It got locked. Then there was a second thread with this video in it. It's still on the board. This is the 3rd thread on this incident.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:03:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By DoberDude:
Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
If you guys want to argue about all of this, start a new thread. A member has lost his friend, this is not the thread for BS.

We had a thread. It got locked. Then there was a second thread with this video in it. It's still on the board. This is the 3rd thread on this incident.



don't poke the mods......
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:07:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By gwitness:
Originally Posted By DoberDude:
Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
If you guys want to argue about all of this, start a new thread. A member has lost his friend, this is not the thread for BS.

We had a thread. It got locked. Then there was a second thread with this video in it. It's still on the board. This is the 3rd thread on this incident.



don't poke the mods......

Somebody has to watch these damn mods.










Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:08:50 AM EST
My condolences to you and other friends and family of the deceased.

This is just a bad situation for everyone involved. I'm sure even the officer is second guessing his reaction. It's always easy to Monday morning quarterback split second decisions made in real time. If life were that easy, we'd all have won the Superbowl, bought Microsoft stock in 1980, machine guns and short barreled rifles before 1994, winning lottery tickets, etc, etc, etc.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:19:16 AM EST
I'm sorry about the loss of your friend as well.

I'm going to be watching for updates on this case, I am very curious to see what happens. I am trying to keep an open mind regarding the situation until all the details/investigations come out a little more, but I do know that my gut reaction is that this is a totaly unnecesary shooting. I think it's relative to this post because it seems like the majority of people who knew this man and were there have these thoughts as well, and there is definately a sense of anger along with the sadness that is very real.

And while I fully respect the opposing view point and wouldn't attack anyone personaly for thinking differently than me, I will say that the people who seemed to think right off the bat that this guy got what he deserved and that anyone not in full compliance with a leo should be shot are crazy. Talk about being sheep, that's just sad.

The whole thing is sad.... :(
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:23:06 AM EST
The difference between a cop making a bad decission and one of us making a bad decision is usually prison time.

Cops serve in a civil capacity like the rest of us (excepting military) but enjoy protection the rest of us are not granted.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:52:22 AM EST
Please enlighten us on the civil capacity you serve in.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:57:42 AM EST
Jesus, enough already.

Whatever side you fall in, someone still lost a friend.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:07:46 AM EST
We should heed VA-Gunnut's words here.

Sorry you're feeling a loss, Ramster. That can be hard................I know.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:14:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By Coltsfan:
Like I said it is tragic, but the quarterbacking is way out of line.


Absofuckinglutely WRONG!

We can discuss Neo treeing what he figured was a drunk driver as a AAR/debriefing/critique, but no one better ever question whether or not a peace officer Judge Dredd did the right thing? BULLSHIT!

EVERY public servant is accountable to the public (after going through the chain of command) for their actions. And just like someone pointed out, part of the reason for discussing Neos vigilante chase was so that things are done better/differently next time. And any public servant should be subject to the same constructive criticism.

Besides, how can any one not question a situation that leaves an unarmed man with 6 bullet holes from behind? Doesn't sound like "stopping the threat" to me. That much sounds like "finish him off so the state isn't liable for medical bills" a.k.a. shoot to kill, and keep shooting until your gun is empty.

And I'm tired of this bullshit excuse about cars being a weapon... EVERYTHING is a fucking weapon to someone with malicious intent, including the brain or body of someone willing to injure others. Are we really gonna start calling every bad guy with four limbs armed? SERIOUSLY?! It's time we admit that the "Mega-City One" mentality of twisting the facts to bring suspects up on tougher charges is rampant and outright fraudulent.

I'm sorry, even if the deceased intentionally drove into the fence (and there's a possibility it was involuntary), that still doesn't manifest an intent to harm others, only an intent to evade police. Why? Because the woman was knocked down by the fence, not crushed by it, which sounds like she wasn't inline with the cars direction of travel, just that the car layed the fence over for several widths of fence, instead of punching a perfect whole through the fence. So anyone with two neurons to rub together can see the the intent wasn't to injure the lady, but to get away. Are you honestly trying to argue that while a drunk driver is boxed in, with police guns drawn and pointing at him, and he's about to be tased, that he's gonna ignore the police, single out a bystander, and attack them? Totally fucking obvious his intent wasn't to injure the bystander. You can see why it looks, to MOST people, like it's another case of "drum up his crimes, make him scarier to the public, so we can justify using whatever tactics we chose to." Now that I think about it, that sounds alot like the Biblical crucifiction scene where the governor comes out on the porch overlooking the square, with two accused criminals and asks the public to choose one, right after citing all the crimes that only one of the parties had commited.

And PDs often have policies involving when to abandon high speed chases because our society recognizes that sometimes, it's more acceptable to let bad guys go then to risk further collateral damage. It's quite possible that the guy could have driven home and been in no accidents. Any one who paints all drunks drivers as guaranteed to be in an accident have an OBVIOUS AGENDA. And the police could have taken his plate numbers and been waiting for him at his home. When an officer KILLS an untried suspect, justified or not, especially when less violent methods of capture seem to exist, of course it raises peoples ire. So why be defensive of procedural questioning?

Which brings us to Type 1 vs. Type 2 error. Our society has decided that convicting an innocent is far more heinous than freeing the guilty and our legal system is setup to error on the side of the accused. It's the way it is. Don't like it, don't be a cop. Any idiot who has to bend the rules (twisting the definition of weapon and similar nonsense, in order to raise the punishment) just "to win" (or give the bad guy what he deserves) shouldn't be "playing the game." And I'm thinking it's alot more heinous for someone to be killed when they are innocent OR when their crime is petty, than it is for an innocent to be convicted and spend time in jail. So ABSOLUTELY, any "field deaths" should be looked at with higher than usual scrutiny.

So IF you honestly believe the quarterbacking is out of line, YOU are part of the problem with the disparity of force in this country.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:19:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By BusySquirrel:
Originally Posted By Coltsfan:
Like I said it is tragic, but the quarterbacking is way out of line.


Absofuckinglutely WRONG!

We can discuss Neo treeing what he figured was a drunk driver as a AAR/debriefing/critique, but no one better ever question whether or not a peace officer Judge Dredd did the right thing? BULLSHIT!

EVERY public servant is accountable to the public (after going through the chain of command) for their actions. And just like someone pointed out, part of the reason for discussing Neos vigilante chase was so that things are done better/differently next time. And any public servant should be subject to the same constructive criticism.

Besides, how can any one not question a situation that leaves an unarmed man with 6 bullet holes from behind? Doesn't sound like "stopping the threat" to me. That much sounds like "finish him off so the state isn't liable for medical bills" a.k.a. shoot to kill, and keep shooting until your gun is empty.

And I'm tired of this bullshit excuse about cars being a weapon... EVERYTHING is a fucking weapon to someone with malicious intent, including the brain or body of someone willing to injure others. Are we really gonna start calling every bad guy with four limbs armed? SERIOUSLY?! It's time we admit that the "Mega-City One" mentality of twisting the facts to bring suspects up on tougher charges is rampant and outright fraudulent.

I'm sorry, even if the deceased intentionally drove into the fence (and there's a possibility it was involuntary), that still doesn't manifest an intent to harm others, only an intent to evade police. Why? Because the woman was knocked down by the fence, not crushed by it, which sounds like she wasn't inline with the cars direction of travel, just that the car layed the fence over for several widths of fence, instead of punching a perfect whole through the fence. So anyone with two neurons to rub together can see the the intent wasn't to injure the lady, but to get away. Are you honestly trying to argue that while a drunk driver is boxed in, with police guns drawn and pointing at him, and he's about to be tased, that he's gonna ignore the police, single out a bystander, and attack them? Totally fucking obvious his intent wasn't to injure the bystander. You can see why it looks, to MOST people, like it's another case of "drum up his crimes, make him scarier to the public, so we can justify using whatever tactics we chose to." Now that I think about it, that sounds alot like the Biblical crucifiction scene where the governor comes out on the porch overlooking the square, with two accused criminals and asks the public to choose one, right after citing all the crimes that only one of the parties had commited.

And PDs often have policies involving when to abandon high speed chases because our society recognizes that sometimes, it's more acceptable to let bad guys go then to risk further collateral damage. It's quite possible that the guy could have driven home and been in no accidents. Any one who paints all drunks drivers as guaranteed to be in an accident have an OBVIOUS AGENDA. And the police could have taken his plate numbers and been waiting for him at his home. When an officer KILLS an untried suspect, justified or not, especially when less violent methods of capture seem to exist, of course it raises peoples ire. So why be defensive of procedural questioning?

Which brings us to Type 1 vs. Type 2 error. Our society has decided that convicting an innocent is far more heinous than freeing the guilty and our legal system is setup to error on the side of the accused. It's the way it is. Don't like it, don't be a cop. Any idiot who has to bend the rules (twisting the definition of weapon and similar nonsense, in order to raise the punishment) just "to win" (or give the bad guy what he deserves) shouldn't be "playing the game." And I'm thinking it's alot more heinous for someone to be killed when they are innocent OR when their crime is petty, than it is for an innocent to be convicted and spend time in jail. So ABSOLUTELY, any "field deaths" should be looked at with higher than usual scrutiny.

So IF you honestly believe the quarterbacking is out of line, YOU are part of the problem with the disparity of force in this country.


What disparity of force are you talking about ?




Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:20:28 AM EST
that.


and Ramster.....our condolences

ibtl.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:33:37 AM EST
In the first article the Herald published the morning after the incident happened they ("they" meaning the article was quoting a department policy) talked about how it is against policy to taser someone in a vehicle. I have been stun gunned (for fun, ;) ) and know from experience that when you are hit with even that kind of jolt your muscles tense up. A taser is worse and for a longer period of time. Until it comes out differenty I must say that I believe the electricity made him hit the gas, I think he might have not been trying to go aywhere at that particular moment. If it comes out different some how I will admit to being wrong, but until then I see an action that was caused by one police officer that caused another to fire (VERY possibly unnecesarily) and kill a man. Sad sad sad.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:38:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 1:06:13 PM EST
Im sorry for your loss....
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 4:15:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
A member has lost his friend, have some respect for that, this is not the thread for BusySquirrel so knock it off.


Ok. I'll discuss it with ramster over a drink on Thursday.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 5:29:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 5:53:55 PM EST
Sorry for your loss, Michael. Trust me, I know the feeling. Try to relish the memories of time spent together. I believe the saying, "A man isn't really dead until he is forgotten".
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:08:27 PM EST
Man I haven’t posted anything till now because of what I had read in the couple of threads posted about this incident. Sorry to PatchO and SoberDude, I didn’t mean to take over your threads about this and I sure wasn’t looking for ass kissing as I saw posted by someone. Over the last 4 years I have lost more than 9 family and friends for various reasons. On top of that I damned near kicked the bucket… So I have some strong feelings about another friend now passing away and how it had happened… Man what a world!

I started to write this earlier and post it in PatchO thread:

FYI - I was shocked about what had happened. I think I expressed myself fairly clearly. I sure did not expect member fighting with other members about the details. I do know one thing for sure the details will come out from those involved... and for whatever its worth part of what I wrote in this or the other thread I posted is that I have had family, friends, and myself been in, around LE, military, etc. Yes I personally have been faced with life and death situations where I only had split seconds for decision making. What I learn from those situations is that training is key... the more you have practiced for something “heated” so to speak the better you might deal with the situation. Also I learned that not everyone can handle such kind of situations… yes I have seen folks go thru the training and when in the field where the pressure was on, they freaked out. When I training guard dogs for personal protection and LE again I saw dogs that went thru years of training, looked to be the scariest, meanest beast you’ve ever seen… once faced with having to bite someone they freaked out and could never protect anyone ever again.

Why did the officers act like they did on this night, again I was not there… however all the details that have been given upset myself and many of Niles friends and family. It always amazes me how folks with no LE training think that LE has some special hidden power that the rest of us do not. I can tell you first hand, but not in this state, that there is such a thing called internal affairs. The IA polices the police and if you F’D up they would be all over your ass. Many of my family always told me to not go into LE because it is a thankless job, and yes I know it is true, just like being a teacher, low pay, tons of hours, long days that never seem to end and half the time someone looking to gun ya down. My point here is, the job sucks but someone has to do it. Every job has its ups and downs. There’s going to be good cops and bad cops just like any other job out there. So I think it’s sad to see folks fighting over chit that we can’t normally do anything about. Yes I am angry that Niles is gone… the officers that night really felt they had to do what they did… I wish I could have been there to give Niles a ride home or whatever… I know, could of, should of, etc… and still this won’t bring Niles back. So like Bobbitybobbity said, we will not forget Niles and will follow this case to find out all the details and make sure that Niles will not be forgotten and from the amount of folks I have now met that loved Niles, family and friends I have a strong feeling that Niles death won’t just be swept under the rug as some have stated…
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:42:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 10:45:33 PM EST by DoberDude]
A girl scout could have got his drunk ass out of that car.
IBTL
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:00:15 PM EST
my condolences for the loss of your friend
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:50:24 PM EST
Sorry to hear about your loss too.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:34:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By DoberDude:
A girl scout could have got his drunk ass out of that car.
IBTL


WTF?
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:42:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By DoberDude:
A girl scout could have got his drunk ass out of that car.
IBTL


WTF?!

Phil already told everyone to keep this thread clean. The least you can do is respect that.

Michael, I'm glad to know you on a personal level and consider you a friend. Regardless of the questions left unanswered, I still sympathize with your loss.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 7:48:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By mike_0120:
Originally Posted By DoberDude:
A girl scout could have got his drunk ass out of that car.
IBTL


WTF?!

Phil already told everyone to keep this thread clean. The least you can do is respect that.

Michael, I'm glad to know you on a personal level and consider you a friend. Regardless of the questions left unanswered, I still sympathize with your loss.

Mind your own business. I was talking to Ramster on the phone as I posted. Start your own thread and monitor that. Like anybody gives a shit what you say anyhow.

Link Posted: 6/15/2009 10:43:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By DoberDude:
A girl scout could have got his drunk ass out of that car.
IBTL


I haven't seen trolling like this since the Three Billygoats Gruff.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 3:43:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By DoberDude:

Mind your own business. I was talking to Ramster on the phone as I posted. Start your own thread and monitor that. Like anybody gives a shit what you say anyhow.



How the fuck are we supposed the know the part in blue until you tell us?

IBDDGTTLU2
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 3:46:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 3:47:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/15/2009 3:47:05 PM EST by Phil_in_Seattle]
More of the same, trolling, attacks, etc.
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