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Posted: 3/30/2006 3:29:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 3:38:01 AM EDT by thebomber]
I'm not sure how widely known it is but VA requires you to keep a register of all (FORM 1)SBRs and "sawed of shotguns" that you posses. The register must be immediately presented upon request of ANY Police Officer.

The reg states "manufacturer" and "dealer". It seems if you FORM 1 an SBR, you are a "manufacturer". What do you guys think???

FWIW.

I know link....I'll get it later.

ETA 18.2-304

Bomber
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:35:10 AM EDT
Hey Bomber,
Relatively new to the AR thing here, my RRA CAR (16") is about 2 months old. Can you clarify the terminology "SBR" and "EBR" for me? I'm guessing SBR is "Short Barrel Rifle"? What is EBR? What constitutes each? Thanks!
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:39:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kcobean:
Hey Bomber,
Relatively new to the AR thing here, my RRA CAR (16") is about 2 months old. Can you clarify the terminology "SBR" and "EBR" for me? I'm guessing SBR is "Short Barrel Rifle"? What is EBR? What constitutes each? Thanks!




SBR = Short barrel rifle = barrel length less than 16" and/or overall length less than 26"

EBR = Enhanced battle rifle????

Bomber
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:54:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thebomber:

Originally Posted By kcobean:
Hey Bomber,
Relatively new to the AR thing here, my RRA CAR (16") is about 2 months old. Can you clarify the terminology "SBR" and "EBR" for me? I'm guessing SBR is "Short Barrel Rifle"? What is EBR? What constitutes each? Thanks!




SBR = Short barrel rifle = barrel length less than 16" and/or overall length less than 26"

EBR = Enhanced battle rifle????

Bomber

EBR= Evil Black Rifle
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 4:43:11 AM EDT
I always thought this to be the case. I keep a laminated 50% copy of my form 1 in the tube of my Vltor stock. Who said it’s just for batteries!

I would like to see a link to the law though. Hopefully you can find it.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 5:12:01 AM EDT
First contact the VA AG for a ruling on the law:

§ 18.2-304. Manufacturer's and dealer's register; inspection of stock.

Every manufacturer or dealer shall keep a register of all "sawed-off" shotguns and "sawed-off" rifles manufactured or handled by him. This register shall show the model and serial number, date of manufacture, sale, loan, gift, delivery or receipt of every "sawed-off" shotgun and "sawed-off" rifle, the name, address, and occupation of the person to whom the "sawed-off" shotgun or "sawed-off" rifle was sold, loaned, given or delivered, or from whom it was received. Upon demand every manufacturer or dealer shall permit any marshal, sheriff or police officer to inspect his entire stock of "sawed-off" shotguns and "sawed-off" rifles, and "sawed-off" shotgun or "sawed-off" rifle barrels, and shall produce the register, herein required, for inspection. A violation of any provision of this section shall be punishable as a Class 3 misdemeanor.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-268.6; 1968, c. 661; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1992, c. 580.)


Second, I would guess you as a person not engaged in the business of manufacturing or dealing in firearms do not meet the definition of a "manufacturer" or "dealer".

As a dealer, I DO keep a serperate bound book on all my Title II firearms, always available for inspection. Note that I do meet the definition of the term dealer and manufacturer.

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:23:40 AM EDT

Second, I would guess you as a person not engaged in the business of manufacturing or dealing in firearms do not meet the definition of a "manufacturer" or "dealer".


That's the key right there. "Dealer" is well defined but I could not find a definition of manufacturer. FTR, Dealer is a person "engaged in the business of dealing firearms" as Hallmark pointed out. I guess by extension, manufacturer would have to be "engaged in the ..."

Bomber
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:35:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 6:36:49 AM EDT by BlackFox]
If this were true of everyone who SBRs their own stuff on a form 1
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:53:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlackFox:
If this were true of everyone who SBRs their own stuff on a form 1




That was pretty much the intent of the thread...discuss what this might mean in a practical sense. I happen to agree with Halmark, but then again, I'm not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night .


Bomber
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:46:12 AM EDT
You also have to look at the plain language of the law. Since SP-65's are not required to be filled out and the state approve the transfer of Title II firearms this provides the state relief in tracing the firearms through the transfering dealers and or manufacturers.

It is the advice of the VASP for dealers NOT to fill out SP-65's for Title II transfers, btw.

Look at it this way, if you had to meet the definition of a "manufacturer" you would never get you Form 1 approved in the first place, unless of course your home is zoned for manufacturing activities, meet all the EPA requirements, meet the state solid/liquid waste requirements, noise requirements..the list goes on and on....

Of course, if you want the definitive answer, write the AG a letter and ask for his interpretation.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 11:05:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hallmark_Ent:
You also have to look at the plain language of the law. Since SP-65's are not required to be filled out and the state approve the transfer of Title II firearms this provides the state relief in tracing the firearms through the transfering dealers and or manufacturers.

It is the advice of the VASP for dealers NOT to fill out SP-65's for Title II transfers, btw.

Look at it this way, if you had to meet the definition of a "manufacturer" you would never get you Form 1 approved in the first place, unless of course your home is zoned for manufacturing activities, meet all the EPA requirements, meet the state solid/liquid waste requirements, noise requirements..the list goes on and on....

Of course, if you want the definitive answer, write the AG a letter and ask for his interpretation.



I agree with everything you have said and this is not meant to be arguementative, just conversation. Why would the state need to have a mechanism to trace a Title II weapon? If one was used in a crime or whatever, couldn't they ask the ATF who it belongs to?

Bomber
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 11:57:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 12:00:10 PM EDT by Hallmark_Ent]

Originally Posted By thebomber:

I agree with everything you have said and this is not meant to be arguementative, just conversation. Who's arguing? Why would the state need to have a mechanism to trace a Title II weapon? Excellent question. If one was used in a crime or whatever, couldn't they ask the ATF who it belongs to? Maybe, not, a Form 1 is a TAX Return, not a registration mechanism. The wheels may turn to slow for the VSP to get the information they need from the ATF. With dealers required to keep the information and also to required to produce the records upon request of the VSP it would make it much easier in my opinion for the VSP to move on a case. I can speak from first hand experience, the VSP takes firearms investigations very seriously and move at near light speed when they need information from a dealer.
Bomber



All good questions, I still think the path to your answer starts with the AG office and would make a great project for someone like yourself to follow through on and report back here with your findings. I'll be at Hite Hollow on Saturday if you would like me to share my wealth of knowledge and experience with you. I'd rather talk to you about this matter in person, you can call me if you like. I really hate using the Internet to discuss such matters, people tend to read all kinds of things into posts that aren't there or are missed in a FTF conversation.

Steve
Hallmark Small Arms
804-986-7409

Red added only to help in the transfer of knowledge in a question and answer format.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 12:02:46 PM EDT
Steve,

Thanks and I'll take you up on that conversation at HH.


Harlan

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 12:04:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thebomber:
Steve,

Thanks and I'll take you up on that conversation at HH.


Harlan




Cool, see you there. In case you don't know who to look for, I resemble this dude:

Steve.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 1:58:55 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:26:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hallmark_Ent:

Originally Posted By thebomber:
Steve,

Thanks and I'll take you up on that conversation at HH.


Harlan




Cool, see you there. In case you don't know who to look for, I resemble this dude:

Steve.



What does thebomber look like?

Very polite to include articulate, clean cut and resembles a Wet Ops crew member for the CIA.

Black powder guy from Sleepy Creek has not been seen since our shoot.

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