Romanian PSL in NY

Posted: 10/26/2010 8:21:22 PM EDT

I seen that two gun shops were selling the Romanian PSL rpk rifle. I thought that was a flash suppressor on the end of the muzzle? Anyone know anything about this?

Posted: 10/26/2010 9:45:58 PM EDT

[#1]

There is no pistol grip/bayo lug and I am pretty sure it is considered a break. I own one.

Posted: 10/27/2010 1:01:14 AM EDT

[#2]

The PSL has a brake on it,not a flash hider.
Very fun gun to shoot. If your shopping I'd say try
to get a Romanian built one,not a "kit build".

Posted: 10/27/2010 2:50:01 AM EDT

[#3]

I have had two. First one had a major receiver failure after about 100 rounds. Ran great for those 100 round though. Replacement one has been a real pain getting the mags to work properly. Once the ground makes it into the chamber a very good shooter. I have finally gotten it to run somewhat reliable, but the mags are very ammunition sensitive. Brass cased ammo runs great in my rifle. Any bi metallic casings are another thing altogether. I would not want to bet my life on without the ammo that I know runs good in it. Stock is short for most people. Both of mine made in Romanian. Front sight is canted on both units too. Seems to be the norm on Romanian made weapons. Lots of SAR-1's came the same way. At least they tend to lean to the right.

Basically a big AK47. You also need to stick to 150 grain bullets. Like a Garand, using heavier bullets can damage the rifle.

Mags are a big question mark. Each rifle was fitted with 4 mags at the factory and do have a serial number that matches the serial number on the rifle. . US distributors naturally kept the mags threw them into a big pile and send only two (non matching in almost all cases) with the rifle selling the others separately. Some rifles don't seem to care and others are hit or miss. Most people end up polishing and adjusting the feed lips to improve reliability.

Plus side - fun to shoot. I usually shoot mine at 200 yards and it hits clays at that distance most of the time. High cool factor if you have the scope installed. Take off the scope and it drop dramatically. Not a sniper rifle by any means. More of a designated marksman type weapon. Company in Las Vegas will give the rifle a heck of an overhaul for about $500. Shorten the barrel, rework all the parts etc. Do a great job from what I've read.

Posted: 10/27/2010 5:04:25 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
There is no pistol grip/bayo lug and I am pretty sure it is considered a break. I own one.

Dragunov grip = pistol grip. Most of the PSL's I have seen have no bayonet lug and tack welded muzzle brakes. Bayonet lugs and threaded barrels are non-sporting features and would block importation of the guns.

Posted: 10/27/2010 3:25:23 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
There is no pistol grip/bayo lug and I am pretty sure it is considered a break. I own one.

Dragunov grip = pistol grip. Most of the PSL's I have seen have no bayonet lug and tack welded muzzle brakes. Bayonet lugs and threaded barrels are non-sporting features and would block importation of the guns.

Dragunov stock == thumb hole stock.
Combined with lack of hi-cap magazines it falls into sporting category and is exempt from 922R. But it still has to comply with NY laws.

Posted: 10/27/2010 3:48:58 PM EDT

[#6]

Well I am sitting right now in a hunters safety course my son is taking. I talked to the DEC officer here about the PSL and he said I would be fine to own it. I told him there was no nato lug and he said that was fine. He said the thumb hole stock is NOT considered a pistol grip. Showed a pic of the muzzle break and said that was find. I asked about preban mags. Said those were fine (ak mags). Also asked about have an ak folding stock pinned open and said it was fine as long as it doesn't fold. Also said.ar stocks are fine if they are pinned. Now I know a different officer might say different but this is the guy I most likely would encounter here in my local erea. So I feel good about things. Think I am gonna keep my Psl kit I had up for sale and order the 50 pack of ak mags they have on sale.

Posted: 10/27/2010 4:16:16 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
There is no pistol grip/bayo lug and I am pretty sure it is considered a break. I own one.

Dragunov grip = pistol grip. Most of the PSL's I have seen have no bayonet lug and tack welded muzzle brakes. Bayonet lugs and threaded barrels are non-sporting features and would block importation of the guns.

Dragunov stock == thumb hole stock.
Combined with lack of hi-cap magazines it falls into sporting category and is exempt from 922R. But it still has to comply with NY laws.

Negative. BATF ruled that Dragunov stocks are pistol grips:

Originally Posted by ATF

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives

NOV 1, 2005

903050:ELG
3311/2005-663

Dear Mr. LESchwartz:

This refers to your letter, received by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), September16, 2005, pertaining to a Saiga AK-type semiautomatic rifle. Specifically, you requested a clarification regarding modifications to Saiga rifles. Your letter was forwarded to FTB’s new location in Martinsburg, WV, for reply.

As you may be aware, the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. § 922(r), prohibits assembly of certain semiautomatic rifles and shotguns from imported parts. The implementing regulations contained in 27 CFR § 478.39 (formerly 1 78.39) include the stipulation that “no person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of certain imported parts, if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. § 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.”

These parts are tabulated below:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings.
(2) Barrels.
(3) Barrel extensions.
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).
(5) Muzzle attachments.
(6) Bolts.
(7) Bolt carriers.
(8) Operating rods.
(9) Gas pistons.
(10) Trigger housings.
(11) Triggers.
(12) Hammers.
(13) Sears.
(14) Disconnectors.
(15) Buttstocks.
(16) Pistol grips.
(17) Forearms, handguards.
(18) Magazine bodies.
(19) Followers.
(20) Floor plates.

Because certain AK-type semiautomatic rifles are currently prohibited from importation, the assembly of such rifles using more than 10 of the above imported parts is prohibited under § 922(r). However, assembly of AK-type semiautomatic rifles using 10 or fewer of these imported parts is not prohibited under this section.

With respect to the questions in your letter, we will answer them in the order they were posed, as follows:

Question 1: Would modifying a Saiga rifle by replacing the existing buttstock with a ‘thumbhole style” stock result in a rifle prohibited from importation under Title 18 USC, Section 925(d)?

Answer: Yes. if your Saiga rifle is assembled using more than 10 of the imported parts in the above-cited 922(r).

Question 2: With reference to the parts listed in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 478 (formerly Part 178), section 478.39(c): Is thumbhole style stock counted as a buttstock, as a “pistol grip”, or both?

Answer: Both: The “thumbhole stock” about which you inquire is considered a combination of a pistol grip and a buttstock, therefore counting as two parts with reference to the parts listed in 27 CFR § 478.39(c) (formerly 178.39(c)).

Please note that the above answers are applicable to .223, 7.62x39mm, and .308 calibers.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your questions.

Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

NYSP interprets the language of the NY AWB based on BATF rulings, so a Dragunov stock is considered a pistol grip.

Magazine capacity will also have to be capped at 5 rounds while hunting.

Posted: 10/27/2010 4:44:45 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
There is no pistol grip/bayo lug and I am pretty sure it is considered a break. I own one.

Dragunov grip = pistol grip. Most of the PSL's I have seen have no bayonet lug and tack welded muzzle brakes. Bayonet lugs and threaded barrels are non-sporting features and would block importation of the guns.

Dragunov stock == thumb hole stock.
Combined with lack of hi-cap magazines it falls into sporting category and is exempt from 922R. But it still has to comply with NY laws.

Negative. BATF ruled that Dragunov stocks are pistol grips:

Originally Posted by ATF

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives

NOV 1, 2005

903050:ELG
3311/2005-663

Dear Mr. LESchwartz:

This refers to your letter, received by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), September16, 2005, pertaining to a Saiga AK-type semiautomatic rifle. Specifically, you requested a clarification regarding modifications to Saiga rifles. Your letter was forwarded to FTB’s new location in Martinsburg, WV, for reply.

As you may be aware, the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. § 922(r), prohibits assembly of certain semiautomatic rifles and shotguns from imported parts. The implementing regulations contained in 27 CFR § 478.39 (formerly 1 78.39) include the stipulation that “no person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of certain imported parts, if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. § 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.”

These parts are tabulated below:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings.
(2) Barrels.
(3) Barrel extensions.
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).
(5) Muzzle attachments.
(6) Bolts.
(7) Bolt carriers.
(8) Operating rods.
(9) Gas pistons.
(10) Trigger housings.
(11) Triggers.
(12) Hammers.
(13) Sears.
(14) Disconnectors.
(15) Buttstocks.
(16) Pistol grips.
(17) Forearms, handguards.
(18) Magazine bodies.
(19) Followers.
(20) Floor plates.

Because certain AK-type semiautomatic rifles are currently prohibited from importation, the assembly of such rifles using more than 10 of the above imported parts is prohibited under § 922(r). However, assembly of AK-type semiautomatic rifles using 10 or fewer of these imported parts is not prohibited under this section.

With respect to the questions in your letter, we will answer them in the order they were posed, as follows:

Question 1: Would modifying a Saiga rifle by replacing the existing buttstock with a ‘thumbhole style” stock result in a rifle prohibited from importation under Title 18 USC, Section 925(d)?

Answer: Yes. if your Saiga rifle is assembled using more than 10 of the imported parts in the above-cited 922(r).

Question 2: With reference to the parts listed in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 478 (formerly Part 178), section 478.39(c): Is thumbhole style stock counted as a buttstock, as a “pistol grip”, or both?

Answer: Both: The “thumbhole stock” about which you inquire is considered a combination of a pistol grip and a buttstock, therefore counting as two parts with reference to the parts listed in 27 CFR § 478.39(c) (formerly 178.39(c)).

Please note that the above answers are applicable to .223, 7.62x39mm, and .308 calibers.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your questions.

Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

NYSP interprets the language of the NY AWB based on BATF rulings, so a Dragunov stock is considered a pistol grip.

Magazine capacity will also have to be capped at 5 rounds while hunting.

That letter is an explanation to $922r which is different from 1994 AWB and NYS AWB.
If you look at the CA law it explicitly names thumb hole stocks as evil feature "A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip".

The bottom line is it can be interpreted either way.

Posted: 10/27/2010 5:55:14 PM EDT

[#9]

Well with everything being said, One could interpret that the muzzle bake on the psl to be a flash suppressor and then with the thumbhole stock being a pistol grip. Then it would be violating NY's awb law. Why would gun shops be selling these here in NY? Just trying to see what others have to say. Opinions lol

Posted: 10/27/2010 6:20:15 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Well with everything being said, One could interpret that the muzzle bake on the psl to be a flash suppressor and then with the thumbhole stock being a pistol grip. Then it would be violating NY's awb law. Why would gun shops be selling these here in NY? Just trying to see what others have to say. Opinions lol

A muzzle brake will stay the muzzle brake.
When I looked at PSL a while back in a very reputable local shop, it had the muzzle brake, no doubt here, but it wasnt pinned or welded. That would put that particular PSL out of law as you stated above.

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