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Posted: 7/19/2005 7:10:34 PM EDT
I have a rifle that is going to have some changes made to it which will cause it to go down to just over 26" OAL. Has anyone done this and were there any special procedures? If I have a CPL does anyone know if I can just make the changes and then take it in to register it? This will be done on a rifle I have had for a few years.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 10:15:10 PM EDT
you dont have to do anything. dont know of any pd that require you to register a long gun. as long as oal is more then 26 an barrel is atleast 16. You should be good to go.
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 4:17:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kitobear:
you dont have to do anything. dont know of any pd that require you to register a long gun. as long as oal is more then 26 an barrel is atleast 16. You should be good to go.



Maybe I am mistaken, but I was under the impression it is required by the State to register a rifle that was over 26 OAL but less than 30 OAL.
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 6:56:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kitobear:
you dont have to do anything. dont know of any pd that require you to register a long gun. as long as oal is more then 26 an barrel is atleast 16. You should be good to go.



If you are in MI, it is my understanding that a firearm with barrel length of 16"+ and oal between 26 and 30 must be registered as a pistol despite the fact that it falls under the federal definition of a rifle.
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 7:45:28 AM EDT
That is what I thought, too.

Doesn't an OAL of less than 26" put it into the rhealm of NFA?
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 11:14:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2005 11:16:15 AM EDT by danno-in-michigan]

MCL 28.421 Definitions.
As used in this act:

* * *

(e) "Pistol" means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 30 inches or less in length, or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals itself as a firearm.



I'd like to know the answer to this question, too because, as I understand it, putting a folding stock on a Mini-14 might turn it into a "pistol" under Michigan law. I suppose this might be an advantage because, if you had a CCW, you could carry it concealed in the car.
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 12:29:15 PM EDT
According to the Michigan State Police, if it measures between 26" and 30" it must be registered as a handgun.
This is due to a discrepancy between Federal Law, which states that a rifle measures at least 26" and State law which states 30" as the minimum length for a rifle.
If it is under 26" and designed to be fired from the shoulder, you have a SBR which is illegal in Michigan unless it is properly papered as a C&R with the tax stamp.
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 4:36:35 PM EDT
Somthing else to tack on here also if the rifle is going to be registered as a pistol it also cannot have a vert type of fore grip that would make it an sbr also.

example an SP-89 pistol with the K-grip and a folding stock or either one on the pistol makes it an sbr, an ar15 pistol with a vert grip is also a no-no but the normal barrel shroud is ok?
{yeah that one dumbfounds me too}.

The main thing is if your not absolutley sure of what you have made check the ATF web site and read the laws, also get a copy of the michigan firearms laws and read it alot . You will not get a 2nd chance if you walk into the local PD or sherif's dept with a very kool but illegal
gun.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 6:00:52 AM EDT
I didn't think this was going to be so difficult. As far as I know, the whole pistol registration thing for rifles that are at least 26" OAL, but under 30" OAL is a bit ridiculous. However, I am not sure it affects the status of the firearm as a rifle. It is still considered a rifle and that should not preclude it from having a VFG under federal or state law as it is still a rifle.

I am more or less concerned if there would be any issues with the local PD if I went to "register" a rifle that I have had for a few years after modifying it to the point it was now under 30" OAL, but still over the 26" minimum OAL but still met all other state and federal laws.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 7:56:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JakeHollinger:
I didn't think this was going to be so difficult. As far as I know, the whole pistol registration thing for rifles that are at least 26" OAL, but under 30" OAL is a bit ridiculous. However, I am not sure it affects the status of the firearm as a rifle. It is still considered a rifle and that should not preclude it from having a VFG under federal or state law as it is still a rifle.

I am more or less concerned if there would be any issues with the local PD if I went to "register" a rifle that I have had for a few years after modifying it to the point it was now under 30" OAL, but still over the 26" minimum OAL but still met all other state and federal laws.



The law that requires registration for rifles under 30" has been around since 1985 or 86. PDs are pretty used to it by now. Just take it in and tell them you either just put a folder on it or heard that it has to be registered. I see it all the time at my local PD.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 8:20:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JakeHollinger:
I didn't think this was going to be so difficult. As far as I know, the whole pistol registration thing for rifles that are at least 26" OAL, but under 30" OAL is a bit ridiculous. However, I am not sure it affects the status of the firearm as a rifle. It is still considered a rifle and that should not preclude it from having a VFG under federal or state law as it is still a rifle.

I am more or less concerned if there would be any issues with the local PD if I went to "register" a rifle that I have had for a few years after modifying it to the point it was now under 30" OAL, but still over the 26" minimum OAL but still met all other state and federal laws.



You can go to the PD and get a permit to purchase. Go home. Fill out the permit with yourself as the buyer and seller and then take it back to the PD for its 'Safety Inspection'.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 11:31:04 AM EDT
Thanks monkeyman. That is pretty much what I thought, but I just wanted to see if anyone else had any different/unusual experiences or insight to offer. It is far from a normal occurence in my neck of the woods.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:39:05 AM EDT
I just had a similar problem to this also. According to federal law an SBR is measured with the stock extended out, not folded. Now with that being said, I have two side folding AK's that I called the ATF about in the Detroit field office.

The agent told me that even though with the ak folded it goes just under 26inches, that it irrelavant. what matters is when its extended. He said that I have absolutely nothing to worry about. I told him about the state law and asked him if I should contact the State Police, and he said that he wouldn't even bother.

He gave me his name and number and said that if I had any problems or needed any more assitance to give him a call.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:54:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 12:09:16 PM EDT by JYogi]
<<<< I didn't think this was going to be so difficult. As far as I know, the whole pistol registration thing for rifles that are at least 26" OAL, but under 30" OAL is a bit ridiculous. However, I am not sure it affects the status of the firearm as a rifle. It is still considered a rifle and that should not preclude it from having a VFG under federal or state law as it is still a rifle.>>>>

You can NOT put a VFG on anything under 30 inches in Michigan.
A friend got in SERIOUS trouble for doing this to his HK SP-89.
I have seen people get pulled aside a couple times at Double Action for this type of thing, the most recent was last month someone was shooting an AR Pistol that he put a rail system on and attached a Tango Down VFG. He was pulled out of the range by someone who flashed a badge, he did not return to pick up the rest of his stuff on the range after that, someone in a suit came and gathered his stuff (most likely LE as he was in the back of their car waiting to go into the dept.)
If it does not effect the status of the firearms as a rifle you would not have to register it as a pistol.

Oh yes... Those of you who think ATF and other LE don't go check things out at local ranges or go to shoot their themselves sometimes are just plain foolish

It is not difficult IF you just follow the rules. No VFG on anything under 30 in.

<<<<I just had a similar problem to this also. According to federal law an SBR is measured with the stock extended out, not folded. Now with that being said, I have two side folding AK's that I called the ATF about in the Detroit field office.

The agent told me that even though with the ak folded it goes just under 26inches, that it irrelavant. what matters is when its extended. He said that I have absolutely nothing to worry about. I told him about the state law and asked him if I should contact the State Police, and he said that he wouldn't even bother.

He gave me his name and number and said that if I had any problems or needed any more assitance to give him a call.>>>>


Call the state police, he is quoting federal law which unfortunatley is not the same as MI State law and the State law is what you need to worry about. They are measured with the stock full closed or folded to the side. IF anything was to happen and the State boys were to give you a problem you can call him all you want and it won't do any good.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 1:02:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 1:04:25 PM EDT by JakeHollinger]

Originally Posted By JYogi:
<<<< I didn't think this was going to be so difficult. As far as I know, the whole pistol registration thing for rifles that are at least 26" OAL, but under 30" OAL is a bit ridiculous. However, I am not sure it affects the status of the firearm as a rifle. It is still considered a rifle and that should not preclude it from having a VFG under federal or state law as it is still a rifle.>>>>

You can NOT put a VFG on anything under 30 inches in Michigan.
A friend got in SERIOUS trouble for doing this to his HK SP-89.
I have seen people get pulled aside a couple times at Double Action for this type of thing, the most recent was last month someone was shooting an AR Pistol that he put a rail system on and attached a Tango Down VFG. He was pulled out of the range by someone who flashed a badge, he did not return to pick up the rest of his stuff on the range after that, someone in a suit came and gathered his stuff (most likely LE as he was in the back of their car waiting to go into the dept.)
If it does not effect the status of the firearms as a rifle you would not have to register it as a pistol.

Oh yes... Those of you who think ATF and other LE don't go check things out at local ranges or go to shoot their themselves sometimes are just plain foolish

It is not difficult IF you just follow the rules. No VFG on anything under 30 in.

<<<<I just had a similar problem to this also. According to federal law an SBR is measured with the stock extended out, not folded. Now with that being said, I have two side folding AK's that I called the ATF about in the Detroit field office.

The agent told me that even though with the ak folded it goes just under 26inches, that it irrelavant. what matters is when its extended. He said that I have absolutely nothing to worry about. I told him about the state law and asked him if I should contact the State Police, and he said that he wouldn't even bother.

He gave me his name and number and said that if I had any problems or needed any more assitance to give him a call.>>>>


Call the state police, he is quoting federal law which unfortunatley is not the same as MI State law and the State law is what you need to worry about. They are measured with the stock full closed or folded to the side. IF anything was to happen and the State boys were to give you a problem you can call him all you want and it won't do any good.




This post has me completely lost. Are you saying that if I were to somehow register a RIFLE with a folding/collapsible stock and a 26-30" OAL, that it would somehow magically become a PISTOL or an SBR at the state and/or federal level? Do you or anyone else have any info on it being illegal to put a VFG on a rifle that has a folding/collapsible stock and an OAL length of 26-30" being illegal at the state and/or federal level? This is new to me, but I would hate to get burned if it is legit.

BTW: I already know the SP89 is a PISTOL to begin with and as far as MI is concerned, adding the K grip or any VFG would make it an AOW which is not currently allowed in MI. I am more concerned with how this would affect a RIFLE though, not a PISTOL and whether or not the previous post has any merit to it at all.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 2:22:45 PM EDT
My Mossberg Bullpup is registered as a pistol and it came with (and still has) a VFG.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 3:09:27 PM EDT
<<<<This post has me completely lost. Are you saying that if I were to somehow register a RIFLE with a folding/collapsible stock and a 26-30" OAL, that it would somehow magically become a PISTOL or an SBR at the state and/or federal level? Do you or anyone else have any info on it being illegal to put a VFG on a rifle that has a folding/collapsible stock and an OAL length of 26-30" being illegal at the state and/or federal level? This is new to me, but I would hate to get burned if it is legit.>>>>

Thats exactly what I am saying.
Here in Michigan thats how it works. When you register it as a pistol (which you have to do if its between 26 and 30) it is considered a pistol. A pistol can't have a foregrip according to MI state law, if you put the VFG on it then it becomes a SBR which is NOT ALLOWED in MI.

Call the State Police in Lansing, I did earlier today to make sure I was right about this. The office made sure to point out that even though these are pistols you can't ccw them.

Your AK under 30 in is a Pistol in MI thats just how it works, just like the SP89 which is MUCH smaller I know. Just think of how lucky (or not) we are here in MI no SBR, (no uzi, no HK94 with the short barrel) No Class III, No silencers BUT hey at least we can have coll. stocks and hi cap mags.

Oh yes and if you decide to just not register it and put a VFG on it and think its still a rifle you are sadly mistaken, then you would have an unregistered handgun.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:49:06 PM EDT
JYogi,

I called the Michigan State Police Firearms Division this afternoon in Lansing, and you are right as far as having to register a rifle that has an overall length of less than 30inches with the stock folded. One of the guns that I have to register is an AMD-65 with a Vertical Forgrip, and the lady who I spoke to specifically told me that it was still ok to register. The lady who I spoke with works in the same office that local PD's use if they have questions.

One thing that she made very clear to me was that you cannot take a rifle that you buy from a local gun store and shorten it and then try to turn it into a pistol. The excpetion is in my circumstance is the fact that they are kit builds. Unless it's a kit build, once a long gun always a long gun in this state.

HTH to clearify any issues.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 7:46:36 PM EDT
I Just HATE all of the Bull S*it We have to go through in this godforsaken state, just to try to keep up with all of the STUPID gun laws!

Forget about calling your state reps, Our congressmen, or Our big-eared govenor...They all would like to make it worse for everyone. We can never get this crap fixed because the Welfare recipients, Union workers, and Blue-hairs keep re-electing the same morons over, and over again!

GOD! I've got to get out of this damn state soon or My head will explode from the stupidity!

Tall Shadow
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:35:25 PM EDT
You all should have seen the look on the faces of the people at the PD when I walked in this morning with a double rifle case to register my AMD-65 clone and AK-105clone as pistols because they have folding stocks and are under 30inches.

Once the guy behind the counter opened up the case and realized what I had he just about Sh*t himself. It was all too funny. But they didn't give me any hassle about it and I got them registered just fine.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 4:46:55 AM EDT
This thread is exactly what I am looking for....


I'm making a folding stock for my Browning Buckmark Rifle. The folded length will be 24-3/8". Will this be considered an SBR?

Dave
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 4:58:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
This thread is exactly what I am looking for....


I'm making a folding stock for my Browning Buckmark Rifle. The folded length will be 24-3/8". Will this be considered an SBR?

Dave



Yes.

26" to 30" it can registered as a psitol.

Under 26" and it's considered an SBR (In Michigan).
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 5:01:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tall_Shadow:
I Just HATE all of the Bull S*it We have to go through in this godforsaken state, just to try to keep up with all of the STUPID gun laws!

Forget about calling your state reps, Our congressmen, or Our big-eared govenor...They all would like to make it worse for everyone. We can never get this crap fixed because the Welfare recipients, Union workers, and Blue-hairs keep re-electing the same morons over, and over again!

GOD! I've got to get out of this damn state soon or My head will explode from the stupidity!

Tall Shadow



The problem with MI right now is that it's a blue state. People keep voting for these jackasses that want to institute stupid stuff like:

vehicle emissions inspection
AWB

I lived in NJ all my life and let me tell you, MI is basically what NJ was 20-30 years ago. It's slowly turning into NJ all over again. Back when I was born, my dad said he could buy rifles, shotguns, and pistols from the local K-Mart in NJ. Then after 86 or so (and especially 94) all of that disappeared. In NJ Walmarts, they LOCK UP the airsoft and paintball crap like it's the real deal. Sigh...

All of my reps (Senate and Congress) are democrats. The county prosecutor is a bleeding heart liberal who was against assault weapons and won. The other guy said he saw ZERO problems with law abiding citizens owning assault rifles. The liberal moderator immediately said "So you're telling us that it's OK for people to buy an AK-47?!?!?!" and the candidate quickly (and smartly) changed the course of that discussion but ultimately he lost. sigh...
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 8:05:00 AM EDT
TheOtherDave,

You should contact the State Police Firearms Div. to be sure. Both of the rifles that I just registered are under 26" when folded. They are about 25". One is an AMD-65 and the other is an AK-105clone. I asked the state police specifically about rather or not they would be considered an SBR and they told me NO that under state law, that they are pistols and should be registered as such immediately.

The law stats that under 30" is a pistol, the 26" mark does not matter when its being considered a pistol. She told me that even though they fall under the 26" mark, that they are not considered SBR's, and I forgot what they reasoning was. The law is very detailed, specific, and confusing. I thought that my guns fell under SBR and they don't. Remind you that my guns are kit builds that I had a guy out of state do on receivers that I bought here in MI. The lady from the firearms div. was telling me that there are exceptions in the law for kit builds.

So like I said, if it is questionable call the STATE POLICE and be sure that you are legal.
HTH
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 8:14:31 AM EDT
One other thing, the ATF measures a gun with a folding stock with the stock in the open position and NOT the folded position like state law. Then the ATF measures the weapon with the stock open to determine OAL. And they also check barrel length.

So with federal law my guns are not considered an SBR because they are well over 30inches with the stocks open. But under state law they are considered to be pistols. At the local PD they were surprised by what I was registering, but did not give me any problems about the overall length and agreed that they are pistols just like the state police told me they are.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 8:17:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AKM47:
TheOtherDave,

You should contact the State Police Firearms Div. to be sure. Both of the rifles that I just registered are under 26" when folded. They are about 25". One is an AMD-65 and the other is an AK-105clone. I asked the state police specifically about rather or not they would be considered an SBR and they told me NO that under state law, that they are pistols and should be registered as such immediately.

The law stats that under 30" is a pistol, the 26" mark does not matter when its being considered a pistol. She told me that even though they fall under the 26" mark, that they are not considered SBR's, and I forgot what they reasoning was. The law is very detailed, specific, and confusing. I thought that my guns fell under SBR and they don't. Remind you that my guns are kit builds that I had a guy out of state do on receivers that I bought here in MI. The lady from the firearms div. was telling me that there are exceptions in the law for kit builds.

So like I said, if it is questionable call the STATE POLICE and be sure that you are legal.
HTH



Sure, they comply with STATE law, but FEDERAL law says its an SBR.

Short-Barreled Rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches long is defined as a short-barreled rifle. This includes any weapon made from a rifle (by alteration or modification) resulting in an overall length of less than 26 inches.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 10:34:00 AM EDT
So, if a MI resident had a rifle that was 26-30" and was registered as a pistol, would that mean they could legally transport this "PISTOL" in a vehicle with loaded mags inserted and even "TECHNICALLY" carry it concealed as long as they had their MI CPL? There has to be a plus in this mess of laws somewhere.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 2:10:26 PM EDT
The federal government/ATF does not measure an SBR from the folded position, therefore my guns according to federal law are perfectly legal because with the stocks out they are well over 30inches.

The federal government measures SBR's differently then the state of MI does.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 4:05:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kevins_garage:
So, if a MI resident had a rifle that was 26-30" and was registered as a pistol, would that mean they could legally transport this "PISTOL" in a vehicle with loaded mags inserted and even "TECHNICALLY" carry it concealed as long as they had their MI CPL?

There has to be a plus in this mess of laws somewhere.



No, can't carry it as a CPL
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 4:07:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AKM47:
The federal government/ATF does not measure an SBR from the folded position, therefore my guns according to federal law are perfectly legal because with the stocks out they are well over 30inches.

The federal government measures SBR's differently then the state of MI does.



Whoops, wasn't implying your firearms were violating federal law. I was speaking in general.... I just want people to realize that just because the state says they are OK with it, doesn;t mean the federal govt. is OK with it as well.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 4:36:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bump0x:

Originally Posted By AKM47:
The federal government/ATF does not measure an SBR from the folded position, therefore my guns according to federal law are perfectly legal because with the stocks out they are well over 30inches.

The federal government measures SBR's differently then the state of MI does.



Whoops, wasn't implying your firearms were violating federal law. I was speaking in general.... I just want people to realize that just because the state says they are OK with it, doesn;t mean the federal govt. is OK with it as well.



Does it really matter what the federal gov't does if you "may be" in violation of a state law?

In his case, I thought Michigan law pretty clearly states that a rifle under 26" OAL whether it has a fixed stock or collapsible is illegal to own in the state of Michigan (it would be considered an SBR by state definition). It doesn't surprise me that the local PD registered it anyway (when I go in to register stuff my local PD doesn't know much about firearms except for what they carry and Glocks). I wouldn't want to get caught with it if it were mine. Just my thoughts which I am sure some are going to disagree with. I came to these conclusions by reading the Michigan Firearms laws publication (.pdf available on the web). If you read it differently, please let me know.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 5:52:41 PM EDT
I know what the State Firearms laws say and I totally agree with what you are saying. I thought that what I had was SBR's. When I called the state police about it, Their the ones that told me no that they are not SBR's under state law and that they are pistols. This was the Michigan State Police Firearms Division that I spoke with in Lansing.

I spoke to the State Police for almost 40 minutes on the phone trying to figure out how it was that my guns are considered pistols and not rifles. Believe me when I say, the laws are very confusing and there is more to them then what you are able to read on the internet. The state police has in far greator detail what the laws are and how each type and size of firearm fits into the law.

Like I said before if you have questions about a build or if you are changing your rifle, I strongly urge you to contact the State Police to make sure what you are doing is legal. If I wasn't sure that I was legal, I would have gotten ride of the guns because I can't afford to have firearms that are in violation of the law.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:18:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 6:22:02 PM EDT by bump0x]

Originally Posted By AKM47:
I know what the State Firearms laws say and I totally agree with what you are saying. I thought that what I had was SBR's. When I called the state police about it, Their the ones that told me no that they are not SBR's under state law and that they are pistols. This was the Michigan State Police Firearms Division that I spoke with in Lansing.

I spoke to the State Police for almost 40 minutes on the phone trying to figure out how it was that my guns are considered pistols and not rifles. Believe me when I say, the laws are very confusing and there is more to them then what you are able to read on the internet. The state police has in far greator detail what the laws are and how each type and size of firearm fits into the law.

Like I said before if you have questions about a build or if you are changing your rifle, I strongly urge you to contact the State Police to make sure what you are doing is legal. If I wasn't sure that I was legal, I would have gotten ride of the guns because I can't afford to have firearms that are in violation of the law.



I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you AKM47. You mentioned in a previous post that you recently registered 1 or 2 firearms that were less than 26" when folded right? If so, they are definitely an SBR in MI. Its the same reason you can't have an Uzi in Michigan (which most people are familiar with).

Here is a link to the attorney general opinion that lays it all out. Atty. General Opinion

Here is the important part


Originally posted by Frank J. Kelly:
Your second question is:

Are rifles and shotguns whose barrels are at least 16 and 18 inches in length, respectively, with folding and/or telescoping stocks which are fully operable with the stocks folded or contracted and whose lengths are less than 26 inches with the stocks folded or contracted 'short-barreled rifles' and 'short-barreled shotguns,' respectively, as defined in MCL 750.222 et seq; MSA 28.419 et seq, and, thus, subject to the provisions contained therein?

MCL 750.222; MSA 28.419, in pertinent part, provides:

'(d) 'Shotgun' means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single function of the trigger.

'(e) 'Short-barreled shotgun' means a shotgun having 1 or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or a weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

'(f) 'Rifle' means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

'(g) 'Short-barreled rifle' means a rifle having 1 or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.'

MCL 750.224b; MSA 28.421(1), provides that a person who manufactures, sells, offers for sale, or possesses a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle is guilty of a felony. This section specifically exempts from its provisions the sale, offering for sale or possession of a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun which the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States has found to be a curio, relic, antique, museum piece, or collector's item not likely to be used as a weapon, but only if the person selling, offering for sale or possessing the firearm has fully complied with the provisions of MCL 28.422; MSA 28.92 and MCL 28.429; MSA 28.99.

The firearms which are referred to in the second question will fall within the definition of a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun only if they are considered to have been made from a rifle or shotgun 'by alteration, modification, or otherwise' and are capable of being folded or contracted to less than 26 inches in length. It is unclear what is meant by the phrase 'by alteration, modification, or otherwise' as used in MCL 750.222; MSA 28.419.

To resolve a perceived ambiguity, a court will look to the object of the statute or rule, the evil or mischief which it is designed to remedy, and will apply a reasonable construction which best accomplishes the purpose of the statute or rule. Johnston v Billot, 109 Mich App 578, 589, 590; 311 NW2d 808 (1981), lv den, 414 Mich 955 (1982). In construing a statute, legislative intent may be determined from consideration of all provisions of the enactment in question. Wheeler v Tucker Freight Lines Co, Inc., 125 Mich App 123, 126; 336 NW2d 14 (1983), lv den, 418 Mich 867 (1984).

It has been held that the term 'alteration' means a change of a thing from one form or state to another, making it different from what it was without destroying its identity. Paye v City of Grosse Pointe, 279 Mich 254, 257; 271 NW 826 (1937).

It is clear that if a person altered or modified a rifle or a shotgun with a fixed stock by shortening that stock so that the overall length of the rifle or the shotgun was less than 26 inches, such a firearm would fall within the definition of a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun. Sale or possession of such firearms is prohibited by MCL 750.224b; MSA 28.421(2):

'(1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle.

'(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.'

n order to effectuate the legislative intent to limit the presence of such weapons in this state, a rifle or a shotgun which can be lengthened and shortened at will must also be considered as a weapon made from a rifle or a shotgun by alteration, modification, or otherwise when it is capable of being less than 26 inches in length by folding or contracting its stock.

It is noted that the UZI semiautomatic carbine rifle is a short-barreled rifle since it is capable of being contracted to an overall length of 24.4 inches and is fully operable in this condition. The Remington 870P shotgun has a barrel 18 inches in length and an overall length of 28.5 inches with the stock folded, and, therefore, it is not a short-barreled shotgun. The Universal Firearms #5000-PT semiautomatic carbine rifle has a barrel length of 18 inches and an overall lenght of 27 inches with the stock folded, and, thus, it is not a short-barreled rifle.

It is my opinion, in answer to your second question, that rifles and shotguns whose barrels are at least 16 and 18 inches in length, respectively, with folding and/or telescoping stocks, which are fully operable with stocks folded or contracted, and whose lengths are less than 26 inches with stocks folded or contracted, fall within the definitions of 'short-barreled rifle' and 'short-barreled shotgun,' and their sale or possession is prohibited by MCL 750.224b; MSA 28.421(2).

Frank J. Kelley




Originally Posted By AKM47:
Believe me when I say, the laws are very confusing and there is more to them then what you are able to read on the internet. The state police has in far greator detail what the laws are and how each type and size of firearm fits into the law.



While I agree there is some misinformation on the internet, the entire MCL is available for the public to read and the police have no more detailed information that is for their use only. If you called again tomorrow and talked to someone different, you might very well get a different answer. It happens all the time. Trust me. If you want the truth, read it for yourself or talk to a competent lawyer.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:55:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AKM47:
I know what the State Firearms laws say and I totally agree with what you are saying. I thought that what I had was SBR's. When I called the state police about it, Their the ones that told me no that they are not SBR's under state law and that they are pistols. This was the Michigan State Police Firearms Division that I spoke with in Lansing.



I hate to inform you, but just because someone is a state trooper doesn't mean they know firearms laws.

If you have rifles that are under 26" with the stock folded here in Michigan, then you are in violation of state law.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 4:28:19 PM EDT
To clear this up, I did not talk to a State Trooper, I spoke with an expert in the firearms division. I specifically called the firearms division so that I could know if my guns were 100% legal or not. If you want, I can give you the number and you may call there your self and speak with her.

I called the firearms division specifically because I did not want the opinion of just a State Trooper who probably knows little about the firearms laws anyway. The lady who I spoke with is the same person that city, county, and state police/municipalities use if there are questions about the firearms laws in MI.
You guys can believe what ever it is that you would like, but I didn't speak to the MSP Firearms Division once, but twice to verify that my weapons are in fact legal to own as pistols.

One other thing is that the opinion that an attorney general made back in 1985 means absolutley Sh*t because its nothing more than an opinion, NOT LAW. This is basically the same thing that the state police and the atf told me.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 5:08:37 PM EDT
This discussion is going absolutely no where, I have said all that I can say. If you don't believe me, call the MSP Firearms/Records Division yourself and consult them about it.

If you want I would be more than happy to supply you with the phone number, just let me know.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 4:48:05 PM EDT
AKM47 just to cover your 6 you should call her back and have here send you in writing on letterhead what she told you on the phone. I would hate to see you or anyone go to prison and loose their rights just for a stupid inch.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:48:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AKM47:
To clear this up, I did not talk to a State Trooper, I spoke with an expert in the firearms division. I specifically called the firearms division so that I could know if my guns were 100% legal or not. If you want, I can give you the number and you may call there your self and speak with her.

I called the firearms division specifically because I did not want the opinion of just a State Trooper who probably knows little about the firearms laws anyway. The lady who I spoke with is the same person that city, county, and state police/municipalities use if there are questions about the firearms laws in MI.
You guys can believe what ever it is that you would like, but I didn't speak to the MSP Firearms Division once, but twice to verify that my weapons are in fact legal to own as pistols.

One other thing is that the opinion that an attorney general made back in 1985 means absolutley Sh*t because its nothing more than an opinion, NOT LAW. This is basically the same thing that the state police and the atf told me.



There is no reason to be hostile. If someone verbally telling you something is good enough for you, then its good enough for you. Note that nobody said you better turn in your guns, or you don't know what you're talking about. This thing is called a 'forum' for a reason.

I would, in fact, like the phone number of the person you spoke to. It might prove enlightening....

FYI, The reason we can't have non C&R NFA weapons in Michigan is because of the Attorney General's OPINION of the law as well. I guess that doesn't mean shit either. I, for one, don't care to test it tho.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:52:00 PM EDT
I apologize if I am coming off as hostile because that is not my intention. But please give the MSP a call so that you can hear what they told me for yourself.

BumpOx here is the # 517-322-5525, her name I believe is Sissy or Missy, I don't remember, but this is her direct phone in Lansing. She is only there Monday-Friday and if she is not in leave her a message and she is good about returning your call.

She is very knowledgeable about firearms laws and will help clearify all this for you. Make sure that you mention that my weapons are kit built firearms because if I remember right there is a clause in the law for these specifically that is why my guns are legal.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:42:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AKM47:
I apologize if I am coming off as hostile because that is not my intention. But please give the MSP a call so that you can hear what they told me for yourself.

BumpOx here is the # 517-322-5525, her name I believe is Sissy or Missy, I don't remember, but this is her direct phone in Lansing. She is only there Monday-Friday and if she is not in leave her a message and she is good about returning your call.

She is very knowledgeable about firearms laws and will help clearify all this for you. Make sure that you mention that my weapons are kit built firearms because if I remember right there is a clause in the law for these specifically that is why my guns are legal.



It's Sissy. She is very nice and a pleasure to talk to, but she does not strike me as very knowledgeable on MI firearm laws. She told me a K-grip (VFG) on a HK SP-89 (pistol) or a VFG on any pistol was perfectly legal in MI without any state or federal paperwork. I have been wrong before and will surely be wrong in the future, but a VFG on a pistol makes it an AOW, which AFAIK requires federal paperwork and would be illegal in MI. I personally do not rely on anything verbal from her or the MSP firearms branch. I prefer to have things like this in writing.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:38:42 PM EDT
I am debating about calling her back tommarow to see if Sissy can fax me some literature about the laws that she is refering to about Overall Length.

I didn't think that she was very knowledgable at first either, but after I told her that I had studied MI Laws in College she was much more willing to go into detail about everything.

When Sissy went into detail about MI firearms laws, she left me in the dark, as I was trying to comprehend what she was talking about. She told me that there are leupolds in the law for kit built firearms as far as meeting the OAL. I was taught MI Law by Judges, Prosecutors and Defense Attorney's and I have the MI firearms law book and a Criminal Law and Procedure book and neither one of these had the information in them that she was giving me and I explaned that too her and she said that there is more to the laws than what those books give.

There is simply not enough room in the books to give every single detail, all it is a overview and the main points about the law.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:42:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AKM47:
I am debating about calling her back tommarow to see if Sissy can fax me some literature about the laws that she is refering to about Overall Length.

I didn't think that she was very knowledgable at first either, but after I told her that I had studied MI Laws in College she was much more willing to go into detail about everything.

When Sissy went into detail about MI firearms laws, she left me in the dark, as I was trying to comprehend what she was talking about. She told me that there are leupolds in the law for kit built firearms as far as meeting the OAL. I was taught MI Law by Judges, Prosecutors and Defense Attorney's and I have the MI firearms law book and a Criminal Law and Procedure book and neither one of these had the information in them that she was giving me and I explaned that too her and she said that there is more to the laws than what those books give.

There is simply not enough room in the books to give every single detail, all it is a overview and the main points about the law.



Well hey..! If Sissy says it's OK, then that's good enough for me...
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:27:54 AM EDT
Finally I think that I have this straightened out. I just spoke with Sissy again from the State Police about the definition of a SBR. What I discovered was that in order to be considered an SBR in MI under state law the gun must have under a 16inch barrel and an overall length of under 26inches folded.

According to the definition a weapon must meet both length requirments to be considered an SBR. One or the other is not good enough and is not considered an SBR under state law.

I also asked her about the Attorney General's opinion and she said that she cannot comment on his opinion, but what she did say is that all that it is opinion and that the law is followed by the definition.

Actually if you read the MI law, the reason that we don't have NFA weapons in MI is because there was never any guidelines entered into the law to allow them. In the law it clearly stats that they are not allowed.

I am not nor did I have any intentions on testing the laws in MI, I did not realize that I had an issue until the weapons were already in my posession. So all I am merely trying to do is to keep my guns, but make sure that they are legal. According to two different people that I have spoken with now, they are legal.

But seriously if you read the law and in speaking with the state police about it on 3 different occasions now and I spoke with the ATF and each time they said that I am legal and have nothing to worry about, then what am I suppose to believe.

And Ripcode, I do not need to be patronized by you, I am simply trying to help clear this up and do not need to be personally attacked by you. If you have input then go ahead and say something, that is why this is a discussion board. But leave the personal attacks out. And people say that I am getting hostile.

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:28:06 PM EDT
Hi All.

Reading through this thread has got me wondering... can anyone point me to the details about the forward pistol grips?

I ask because I have a Mossburg 500 12 GA, and I am wondering if I have to take it in to be registered as a pistol. Here are the details, it has an 18" barrel, (purchased the replacement barrel that way, not a cut down), and dual pistol grips. one at the trigger and one (thompson-style) one the foregrip for the pump. The OAL from bottom of rear pistol grip to muzzle tip is 28 1/2"... that is the longest point of the shotgun, a straight line measurement from muzzle tip to back of receiver is 27 1/4".

If there is some confusion I can call the State Police, but I wonder if it would just be better to take it in and get it registered.

Thanks in advance for any help.

No Expert
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:47:50 PM EDT
I'm CONFUSED!!! I recently registered an Arsenal classic underfolder with my local PD as a pistol, the OAL is less than 26 inches, they gave me no problems. With that said i just built two rifles an AMD65 and an AKS74 both with folding stocks, the AKS74 measures 27 7/16 inches long in the folded position, thats legit as a pistol from my understanding. The AMD65 has an OAL of 26 1/16 inches long with the stock folded, can i register it as a pistol with the front verticle grip or do i have to add another four inches to the brake? Now theres this, i have a Remington 870 i registered as a pistol and it has a front verticle grip, they gave me no problems registering that, why would they give me a problem registering the AMD? McM
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:51:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 6:52:13 PM EDT by Col__Kurtz]
I just went and registered my new Steyr SPP today, and created a huge shitstorm at my local PD. The clerk and the cops are completely ignorant of any firearms laws. They asked me: "Is this legal?" I also got the "What do you need this for anyways???" They were being very, very rude. The bitch clerk lady was trembling in anger at me for even bringing it in, and when she couldn't get it into the box she almost slammed it down on the counter. I had to actually yell at her and tell her to be careful with it. Then she almost threw it at me and I had to grab it away from her.

It was a total nightmare. In the future, if I had to register AK folder or something, I need hard proof of the laws in a form that I can print up. Anyone got a link handy for that? This was Trenton by the way.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 3:01:52 PM EDT
After registering my AMD and 105, I was still not satisfied that they were legal. Each of these guns measures approx. 25inches folded. After contacting the state police for the fifth time, I had them go over the requirements with me step by step.

Anyway to make a long story short, regardless of what local departments do, a gun that measures under 26inches folded IS considered under state law a Short Barreled Rifle. I had to turn both of my guns into the same dept. that registered them as pistols and they are now going to be destroyed.

Read the law, and contact the state police. I am very upset about this because both of my guns were custom builds done by AK-USA and know they are going to be destroyed. But I would rather not have them then have them and have illegal guns.

HTH
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 10:17:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 3:57:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AKM47:
After registering my AMD and 105, I was still not satisfied that they were legal. Each of these guns measures approx. 25inches folded. After contacting the state police for the fifth time, I had them go over the requirements with me step by step.

Anyway to make a long story short, regardless of what local departments do, a gun that measures under 26inches folded IS considered under state law a Short Barreled Rifle. I had to turn both of my guns into the same dept. that registered them as pistols and they are now going to be destroyed.

Read the law, and contact the state police. I am very upset about this because both of my guns were custom builds done by AK-USA and know they are going to be destroyed. But I would rather not have them then have them and have illegal guns.

HTH



man, that really blows. Couldn't you have replaced the folding stocks with fixed ones and kept the guns legally?

No Expert
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 5:02:01 AM EDT
I could have, but once I got the state police involved with it, I didn't have much choice. The state police contacted the local department about it and told them what I had so it was too late. Luckily I didn't get into any trouble. I explained to the officer who took custody of them what had happened and how I had them built and the officer wrote a police report stating that they were bought/built with good intentions and that I even registered them to comply with the law, but as soon as I found they were illegal, I turned them in for destruction.

In order to put fixed stocks on those guns, it would be very costly and right now I don't have the extra money because I am moving later this week and I need all of my money for that.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 5:07:47 AM EDT
From now on, I am sticking with US made AR-15's where I know I can't go wrong, no more kit guns for me after this mess.
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