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Posted: 2/10/2006 3:33:38 AM EDT
Pardon me if this has been discussed already; I just became aware of the info.
www.atf.gov/firearms/openletters.htm -------- www.atf.gov/firearms/122905pennaffl-openletter.pdf letter dated 12/29/05 ----------- In a Nutshell: If a Pennsylvania resident wishes to sell a "Firearm" ( a handgun is defined as a firearm in PA for this purpose) to another PA resident , (ie - a private sale) the FFL must take the firearm into Inventory and prepare a form 4473 for disposition of the firearm. Only Thencan the FFL conduct a NICS/PICS check. In addition , since the FFL now has taken possesion of the firearm , they may not transfer it (handgun) to anyone under 21 years of age(per the GCA) No more Nics checks for a Fee. 
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Posted: 2/10/2006 6:11:26 AM EDT
[#1]
Sounds like they are trying to clarify what the FFL's should have been doing all along.
I worked for 2 shops in Maryland for 6+ years and both would log PRIVATE SALE guns in and out as if they bought sold it. As for not selling it to someone under 21 has been the law since the 60's. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 9:08:40 AM EDT
[#2]
I for one am not opposed to this.
Gary |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 3:55:01 PM EDT
[#3]
Seems to me that the ATF is lately more strictly enforcing their rules closer to as they have been written. Closing many loopholes. This and the ban on importing part kits come to mind.
I just wish they got rid of the stupider rules such as 922 compliance. Build a AK47 now and its driving me crazy 
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Posted: 2/10/2006 4:08:54 PM EDT
[#4]
I am not sure how the BATF can force FFLs to run private transfers thru their A&D book. As it is now in Pa it is lawful for two private individuals to transfer a handgun thru an FFL or county Sheriff. The county sheriffs office does not have an FFL or keep a federal A&D book as far as I know.
Also a private transfer never puts the firearm into my inventory as the seller is present when the pistol is transferred. For years and years the requirement was to fill out the white form for the state only as the Feds were never able to enforce private transfer regs(state law) I always required the private transfer buyer to fill out a 4473 and a white form anyhow, but I find it hard to swallow that the Federal Govt has any say in how private transfers are done thru the state's system. John Seneca Arms CO |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 4:27:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Thank you Hipwr223 , you explained it better than I did.
There is NOW no private Transfer of a pistol between PA residents. They will ALL be logged in and the info available to the FEDS. If an FFL performs the NICS check and DOES NOT take possession of the firearm , HE has Broken Federal Law. In regard to the 21 year old part , PA law states that possession of a Firearm(handgun) by a PA resident over 18 is legal. If you buy a handgun through an FFL as a GIFT for your 18year old son , and the NICS/PICS and 4473 he does ONLY reflects your information THIS might also be seen by the ATF as a violation! |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 8:10:42 PM EDT
[#6]
You mean that's been PA law since the 60s? Because that's certainly not Federal law. Essentially, between the ATF and the Commmonwealth of PA, they have effectively banned handgun ownership for those between 18-21. Not surprising, since where rights are concerned, those between 18-21 are treated as 2nd class citizens in this country, unconstitutionally denied many rights under color of law. One (admittedly oversimplistic) explanation is that they simply lowered the voting age to 18 so that they could justify to the public the forced conscription of 18 year olds for military service. The fed and state govt's, as well as much of the general public, have never intended to give full citizenship to those between 18 and 21. ACtually...there is ONE option left for you disenfranchised brothers and sisters: The 80% build. Get those frames and get cracking! |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 4:27:39 AM EDT
[#7]
PA law still allows for the transfer of a "firearm" from a parent to a child or between spouses without going through a dealer, PICS check, etc. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 6:43:14 AM EDT
[#8]
You are correct. But my POINT was , if you buy a NEW Pistol FROM A DEALER as a gift to an 18yr old THE DEALER may now be seen as violating the FED LAW. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 12:04:44 PM EDT
[#9]
Aksrule,
Isn't it against federal law to buy a gun for anyone other then yourself. SO, If I buy a gun in my name, and then later, say 5 seconds, 5 days or 5 years decide to give it as a gift to my son, the FFl is all clear. Now if I tell the FFL that the gun is for my son, and I fill out the 4473 in my name, that would be a straw purchase from the start. Am I understanding this right? |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:46:15 PM EDT
[#10]
Straw Purchase is all about intent. The Feds recognize gifting firearms. And it is NOT illegal. However if the intent is to purchase the firearm for someone else that can not comply with GCA68 then it is a straw purchase. Very complicated as the area is real gray.
As for private transfers. It is all the same for the buyer and seller. The dealer has ALWAYS had to have the purchaser fill out a state form "application to purchase a firearm and Record of sale" Those forms have ALWAYS gone to the Pa State Police in Harrisburg. The difference is that we(FFL Holders) were not required to include the pistol or its info (serial number etc.) into our bound book (acquisition and disposition book). I am still not sure that it is within the Fed's jurisdiction. And reading the letter sent out to FFLs it says that dealers not logging the pistols into the A/D book are violating the PA nics requirements. That is a State issue. They do not mention how it violates federal law. So private transfers are still legal in Pa. I did a few in the shop today. I still charge $20.00 just like always. The difference is that I have more record keeping requirements. Nothing else has changed for the parties involved. The bigger issue we are facing is that the State says they are losing money on every NICS check. And are pushing to have the NIC fee raised another $3 to $5 per transaction. This is going to SUCK bad if it goes thru. John Seneca Arms Co |
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Posted: 2/13/2006 10:46:10 AM EDT
[#11]
I've recieved 5 handguns as "gifts" from my father since i turned 18. I turn 21 next week.
I have overwhelming evidence supporting that gifting a handgun to an 18yo is perfectly legal including letters from the attorney general. |
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Posted: 2/13/2006 1:15:17 PM EDT
[#12]
So, just to make clear: If I gift a pistol to my wife, I do not need to do anything - no PICS check, etc. I can just hand the gun over to her without telling anyone, correct?
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Posted: 2/13/2006 2:32:51 PM EDT
[#13]
you can gift a handgun to a spouse as long as...the person taking possession are not prohibited from State or Fed law. Otherwise it is 100% legal. So is the handing down of handguns from fathers to son etc...
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Posted: 2/13/2006 2:35:54 PM EDT
[#14]
I am 19. Does this mean my father can "gift" me the pistol and it will be mine legally? Does the gifiting process require any paperwork?
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Posted: 2/13/2006 9:30:31 PM EDT
[#15]
yes he can as long as you're not a criminal. and no paperwork. Same thing goes for your wife trakker Here's a scan of the letter from the attorney general's office Letter |
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Posted: 2/14/2006 12:05:34 PM EDT
[#16]
Doesn't state law supercede the federal law? Here in NJ there are many state laws that supercede fed law.
C&L, Class 3, CCW, etc. |
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Posted: 2/14/2006 12:32:07 PM EDT
[#17]
state law can be more restrictive than federal law, but not less. Basically, both apply.
However, there are no federal regulations that prohibit what was outlined in the AG's letter posted above. |
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Posted: 2/20/2006 11:00:11 AM EDT
[#18]
Thanks for the post. I'm sure the gang bangers will stop and think before they buy that next hot pistol
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