User Panel
Posted: 6/26/2005 6:49:14 PM EDT
The Emu's plight, along with the dumbass DPS trooper who took that guys machine guns up in North Texas has got me wondering about my duties to respond to an LEO when questioned about legal activities:
Simple question: If stopped by an LEO and the officer asks if you have any weapons (rifles, pistols, machine guns, shotguns) in the car, do you have to tell him yes? What if you say no and there are rifles and legal NFA weapons in the back in unlocked cases? What if you say no, but the rifles, pistols and machine guns are in locked carry cases that cannot be opened by the LEO? FACT scenario: ARFCOMer is stopped returning from the HUN farm outside of Corpus Christi! His AR-15s, Bolt gun, Uzi, Browning BAR and M2 Carbine are in locked starlight cases in the back of his Texas Cadillac (suburban). He tells the LEO that he has a CHL and that his carry weapon in under in a shoulder holster under his left arm. The officer, seeing the Starlight cases in the back, asks the ARFCOMer if he has any other weapons in the car? What does the ARFCOMer have to disclose to the LEO? What if our intrepid ARFCOMer says: No, there aren't any weapons in the car. Officer asks him "what's in the starlight cases" and the ARFCOMer responds "Nothing, they're locked" What if the ARFCOMer responds that "the cases are locked and the contents of a locked case are none of your business unless you get a warrant" It is my understanding that the contents of locked cases are none of the LEOs business and that they need a warrant to open them. I think the real question is what do you have to reveal to a nosy LEO when your activities are lawful and the LEOs questions are intrusive and none of his business. My thought, wrong though it may be: I have no duty to tell a LEO what I have in locked cases in the back of my vehicle or in the passenger cabin of my vehicle. |
|
First of all, I don't understand the thinking that you want to intentionally deceive the officer. By doing so, you cause problems for yourself because you just introduced reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspension just gave the officer the opening to investigate. If you act like you are hiding things, or you sound like you are trying to hide the contents, you just caused yourself a hard time. In this day and age of homeland security, officers out there are going to more diligent about finding things like this.
True, he doesn't have the RIGHT to know what is in the cases, and he has to get a warrant in order to search the cases if you deny him the ability. If it is legal, say what it is. If he violates your rights and confiscates them when they are legal, you have the legal system to go through. Keep all documentation with you. Proof positive that the stuff is legal. Put it on the officer to make the call. |
|
+1. Don't give him an opening. Be honest and truthful. |
|
|
I agree. Ignore what you hear about people's bad experiences with cops and treat them with respect. They'll work with you most of the time.
DPS is a whole other animal because they are no frills, no nonsense officers. They have to be. Most are by themselves and have little if any back up. They do not play around....the job isn't a circus. I have been pulled over on the way to Dallas from Austin by DPS out of Ellis Co. I told him I had a gun in the car and he had me get out. He asked if I had a CHL or a peace officer and I said no. All state law says is it is legal to have a gun with you if you are traveling.....that's it. I told him where I was going and treated him with respect. I got a warning for speeding and a warning for not changing my DL address. Back to your question. One of the biggest fears I have with your scenario is you just created a huge safety concern for you and the officer. The best thing to do in my mind is: Keep all paperwork concerning that particular weapon locked in the case with it. It is safe and you won't lose it. Additionally, when asked, you tell the officer, "Yes, sir, I do have weapons in those cases and they are legal. The paperwork is in the cases." If he asks to search them agree with a no problem sir. Here is the keys for the cases. If they are legal, you have no fear. That's the bottom line. |
|
There is no legal requirement to tell the officer what is in your locked cases.
Being deceptive, however, is an element of reasonable suspicion. Once people start lying to officers (and most officers have a pretty good understanding of Kinesic interviewing, even without formal training, by virtue of the fact that they would be dead or disabled if they didn't learn how to read people), things start changing rapidly. Why would a decent, law-abiding person lie to an officer? Yes, there is no obligation, under many cirumstances, to tell an officer the truth, but deception is a warning sign, and if nothing else, may piss the officer off. My suggestion is to be up front and honest. If I stop someone, and ask what is in all of the hard cases, and they tell me they are coming back from a machinegun shoot, then we are going to have a nice chat about Title II weapons and how I wished I got paid enough to afford more of them. If someone obviously lies to me or displays a nasty attitude, it is much harder for me to justify being nice. If you DO find yourself in a situation where an uninformed officer is going to arrest you and/or confiscate your LEGAL weapons because he is not fully up to speed on the law (and many Texas Peace Officers are woefully ignorant about NFA laws, simply because they never deal with it), DON'T PANIC! Remain calm, polite and comply with all instructions. As soon as you get the opportunity, politefully do the following: 1) Explain the law; 2) Request that they have a supervisor respond to the scene; 3) If all else fails, request that they contact the nearest BATFE Field Office or Resident Agency and have the on-call Agent respond. BATFE Agents will generally be on the phone within about 5 minutes, 24/7, and a two minute conversation ("Does he have a piece of paperwork that says 'Form 4' on the bottom with a tax stamp on the back?") will generally sort things out. The only NFA weapons I have ever dealt with on the enforcement end of things were a sawed-off shotgun someone found in a ditch, and another sawed-off shotgun we found in a meth lab. These aren't things that come up for street cops often deal with, and most are woefully ignorant of PC 46.05, Prohibited Weapons, and the fact that NFA-registered weapons are legal in Texas. Don't blame the officer; they spend most of their time dealing with traffic law, accident investigation, Family Violence, thefts, burglaries, hot checks, your neighbor's out-of-control kids, dope, DWI and a host of other offenses, petty and not-so-petty. NFA doesn't come up very often, and the average cop deals with it about as often as they do Usury laws or Illegal Dumping, and probably hasn't even thought about NFA since they passed the "Penal Code" test in the academy. In fact, I have dealt with Illegal Dumping calls MORE often as a Patrol grunt than I have NFA. |
|
We did have a guy that had his NFA stuff confiscated by a DPS officer and it took him a couple of days off work to get it back.
One of our Class III dealers had a discussion with a DPS officer who flat stated that he would arrest anyone with a suppressor, SBR, SBS or machinegun if he stpped them even if it was legal for them to possess. That's a lot of trouble to go through. Also, travelling, as we have recen'ty found out, is just a defense to a UCW charge. It doesn't stop the cop from arresting you or being charged with UCW. |
|
OK, is htere a reason that our intrepid ARFCOMer should give up this right?
Why is it any of his business? Remember, you may be dealing with John-In-Austin on this one.
Wrong, this takes lots of money and time. No lawyer is going to pursue this for free. Also, what are the damages? I think the goal is to prevent this from happeneing.
Sorry, but I don't want some thug, just out of the ghetto and his gang, with his fresh TCLOS (or whatever that school for Texas LEOs is) card making that call on my ticket. |
||||
|
On #1, NFA registration is technically only a "defense to prosecution" for Prohibited Weapons charges. The Peace Officer MAY make an arrest, and the defense may be presented in court. The trooper technically has every legal authority to do exactly what he said. It would be STUPID and not very much in the interest of justice for him to do that, buthe can legally do that. I wouldn't, nor would I let any of my troops do it, but that is another matter entirely. Doubtless, those charges probably never make it past the intake attorney at the DA's Office, as it is inherently stupid to prosecute something that is legal. As to #2, the Legislature has finally decided to define "Travelling" and on 1 September there will be a "presumption" that a person is "travelling" for the purposes of PC 46.02 if they are carrying a handgun in their car and not engaged in criminal activity other than a Class 'C' traffic offense, and not a member of a "Criminal Street Gang." A CHL is still a better way to legally carry. |
|
|
Hence my desire to simply not let the typical street officer know that I have them in the car. We have some guys in Houston that are straight outa' the ghetto, walkin' around flexin' their badges and hate guns in the hands of us mere subjects. Good faith disclosure os sometimes met with bad faith arrest when dealing with some LEOs. Definitely in the minority, but when you run into one it is a pain in the ass and can get expensive.
Again, this is still a defense to prosecution, but the state has to overcome that presumption. Therefore, this law has merely shifted the burden to the state and off the defendant. |
||
|
I don't think anyone actually answered the question. Am I under a legal requirement or duty to tell the LEO what is in my starlight cases?
Also, although deception is one element of probable cause for a search warrant, what are the other elements? I'll also add a twist: What if I disclose that I have firearms in the locked cases and the LEO wants to see them so he can run the serial numbers. I would refuse to open them and tell him that the weapons and their serial numbers are frankly, none of his business. Albeit, I would do this in a nice way. The "let me see your weapons and run the serial numbers" thing is something else that has happened recently here in Texas. I think it was up north around Denton. |
|
No, you are under no legal requirement to disclose the contents of your cases. The only time you are legally required to disclose the presence of a weapon is if you are a CHL holder , are armed and an officer is making contact with you. Quite frankly, if I have you stopped for a traffic violation and feel you are trying to hide something I don't need to get a warrant to get inside your car. All I have to do is arrest you for the traffic offense and then I move into an inventory of the contents of your car prior to it being impounded. Most people don't seem to realize that you can be arrested for every traffic offense in the Texas Transportation Code except for two (I'll let y'all do a little research and figure out for yourselves what those two are). Writing a ticket is a courtesy we extend to people but it is not mandatory. |
|
|
Even if you arrest the person for a traffic stop, you still need to get a search warrant to open locked cases, assuming I remember the law correctly.
Arresting someone is a lot of trouble and that is sure to casue the arresting officer some problems with complaints if the arrest is simply for a traffic stop. That's a lot of trouble for sticking your nose into something that you don't have a right to stick your nose into isn't it? |
|
Not for an inventory. An inventory is done to protect both the PD and the defendant and is considered different from a search by the courts.. Locked boxes are searched (if we can find the keys, they are not forced open) because we don't need somone coming back and saying "I had one million dollars in that box and now it's gone" after thier car has been towed to the pound. Arresting someone is very easy. All you need is a violation of the law....which the person has provided, hence the traffic stop. You have your opinion on where I need to stick my nose and I have my opinion on where it needs to be. So far my opinion has done me quite well in my career so I will stick with it. Thanks for your input though. Y'all wanted an answer from a police officer and you got one. It's not my problem if you don't like the answer. If you don't want to get into this situation, don't get pulled over. Pretty good explanation of Inventory Searches: www.totse.com/en/law/justice_for_all/search2.html |
|
|
So you open locked boxes without probable cause? I thought case law in Texas stated that you cannot use instantur arrests to get around a refused search? Am I wrong?
I didn't say is wasn't. I just said that frivolous arrests can be a pain for everyone involved.
and I hope it continues to serve you well and keep you safe.
Not a cop bashing, merely a discussion. |
||||
|
Got to Love Lexis: Inventory-On Point for the after arrest poriton of this discussion
|
|||
|
I still haven't found anything on Lexis about consent searchs that apply to locked boxes in a car prior to an arrest.
|
|
In that case I'd have to be arrested. There is no way I would voluntarily submit to that kind of thing without being arrested first. |
|
|
If you are telling us that in your career you regularly arrest people for the sole purpose of doing an inventory search on their car then I will tell you to expect a short career in law enforcement and a long time paying back the civil damages that you will eventually get slapped in the face with. |
||
|
One thing is sure, I'll be activating the combination lock on my minivault under my drivers seat and keeping all keys to any locked cases that I have in the minivault.
They would have to pry it open and I damn sure would not give them the combination. |
|
What about lying to the officer though? Is that not a crime? Ignore CHL or anything illegal. You have legal gun in trunk of car. If cop asks if you have any guns in car (you do), and you say no, is that crime? |
|
|
No problem. I am sure that you have seen it though where an officer is asked a question, gives and honest reply and that leads into bashing of LE |
|||||
|
If you are telling us that in your career you regularly arrest people for the sole purpose of doing an inventory search on their car then I will tell you to expect a short career in law enforcement and a long time paying back the civil damages that you will eventually get slapped in the face with. That is not what I am saying...try reading what is written not interpreting it through your own biases. I said that being arrested for a traffic violation can and has occurred. Thank you for your concern for my career. Been working the streets for 13 years now and have never been sued. 13 years...is that a short career? |
|
OLNACL,
See about, I found a recent case that was right on point about opening locked boxes for inventory searches. My question: Can you force a locked box open for an inventory search? |
|
I took your comment this way. I doubt that many officers would go to the trouble of arresting people for every traffic stop. |
|
|
Lying about your name and DOB is illegal. Feel free to lie about anything else. However, if you get caught in a lie (and we are pretty good at catching people in lies) then expect bad things to happen to you. |
||
|
My apologies then. I only meant to convey that being arrested for the traffic offiense is something that can occur. It is not something that occurrs frequently. I am sure that if it was being abused our fine, pro criminal legislators would have removed the right of LE to arrest for traffic offenses. Much like the ability to arrest people for being "suspicious in a suspicous place" was taken away many years ago. |
||
|
Yes, apologies if that is not what you intended, but it sounded like that was SOP for you and/or your department. If that's not the case then certainly, apologies. |
|||
|
I can see this going downhill fast.
What an officer can do, as opposed to what he will do are usually two different things. Can you be arrested for a traffic offense (other than speeding/open container), yes. Will you be arrested? I guess that depends on the individual officer that you are having a visit with. I am still trying to figure out why you would blatantly lie about what is in the vehicle, especially if it is perfectly legal. If you are afraid of your property being seized by an uninformed officer, you have every right to insist on the supervisor/BATFE option. If it is discovered that you are not being truthful, you have just given the officer reasonable suspicion to investigate further. Why dig yourself into a deeper hole? I can only speak for myself, but a little cooperation will go a long way. Don't bring attitude to the table. As to your original question: No, you are under no legal obligation to disclose the contents of your vehicle/cases. |
|
That's a good question. I am pretty sure that my PD would not allow that. I have been called to several traffic stops that involved that problem (locked boxes and no keys). I ran my K9 on those particular boxes and so far he has alerted to each one (we then got a warrant based on the K9 alert).....and there has been dope or pipes with residue in each one. Due the K9 alert and warrant we were able to force those boxes open. I would imagine that if there was no way to get into the box (no K9 alert or other info that would allow us to get a warrant and then force the box open) we would interview the driver/owner on video (all of our cars have video in them now) and if he said he did not know what was in the box or gave us a detailed accounting of the contents either way we would be covered civily and then we would place the box in our property room for safekeeping. However in 13 years I have never encountered that problelm. Someone always has a key or we have been able to get a warrant. So the above answer is speculation on how I would handle that situation and not how a supervisor might approach it. |
|
|
Not SOP. Just another tool in the tool box to help me do my job. |
||||
|
SC, I'm going to overlook the attack on my integrity. I find it interesting that people's first response is to lie like a rug.
You are under no obligation to tell me what's in the cases. (Not that I'd ask in the first place, I couldn't give a rat's ass whether you have a suppressor or not. I do not enforce Federal law) However, things are going to get really nasty if I catch you in a lie. You see, criminals lie. Honest gun owners don't. Guess what you just identified yourself as? Your warning just became a cite/custody arrest. (yes, I arrest traffic violations on occasion when I suspect other criminal activity) As for the inventory, I don't need PC to conduct an inventory. All I need is the arrest you just provided yourself. Now, locked containers generally fall under dept policy, not law, and are going to be handled differently. My dept policy is that high value items are taken into the property room apart from the vehicle. (That goes to the impound lot.) Sealed containers are not allowed into property, but that's the evidence tech's problem, not mine. |
|
John, based on our previous correspondence, in which you appear to be of the mind that citizens should not be self reliant regarding taking care of themselves and should wait on the police to assist them, I figure you might be one of the LEOs that deep down would be just as happy if the entire populace was disarmed. I could be wrong. but since you have expressed a desire that I do not visit your jurisdiction (in one of your IMs to me), and since a fellow ARFCOMer was arrested while travelling in your jurisdiction, makes me wonder how far your general attitude extends in your jurisdiction and it makes me wonder why I would ever tell a cop that I had an unloaded rifle in a locked case in my truck. So, it looks like I will never have the pleasure of meeting you and getting to know what you really think about these issues which is something that I would normally do with anyone that I thought I had a disagreement with over constitutional issues and happened to be in their area.
Some people. However, I don't see where its any of your business what I have in a locked case in my car. However, lying to a cop is generally a bad thing if you get caught doing it. Its like a client lying to me when I represent them. Bad ju ju and I'll generally fire them and keep the part of their retainer that I am entitled to.
Uh, John, aren't Class III weapons governed by state law also? IIRC, class III weapons are illegal under state law and having them properly registered is a DEFENSE. Kind of like travelling and UCW laws.
It generally happens that way. However, you didn't answer the question of what happens if the guy simply says that the locked cases have riufles and refuses to open them?
Sometimes. Sometimes honest gun owners simply don't need a LEO sticking their nose into something that isn't any of their business. I guess in your world, only guilty people refuse to consent to searches.
Well, my warning was probaly a citation anyway.
See the above case. I didn't find any cases that address opening locked containers or boxes when the keys are not present absent some extrinsic circumstances such as a dog alerting on them. Of course, if the dog was alerting on GSR and the LEO testified that the dog alerted on drugs, then that would probably be sufficent PC to force open a locked case. |
|||||||
|
Hopefully not
True, LEOs have a lot of discretion
That's a good point. Goes back to lying is bad. However, I have been stopped and had LEOs go on a fishing expedition in questioning me. That is the exception. I generally get warnings or if I get a ticket, I am on my way without undue delay.
Is a supervisor available if you are on I-45 beteewn Houston and Dallas and a DPS officer is confiscating your Class III stuff.
True. Of course, to discover that you were not being truthful would require the officer to open the locked starlight cases inthe back of you vehicle wouldn't it?
Yep, it usually does.
Its obviously all in the nuances |
|||||||
|
And as a result of not lying, honest gun owners get their guns confiscated, thrown in jail, miss work and saddled with un-reimbursed legal fees. Makes me re-think if honesty is really the best policy. |
|
|
Good Point: Look what happened to the guy whose machineguns were confiscated by the uninformed DPS trooper. Look at the attitutde of the DPS officer who was in "The Gun Store" in Austin and told that owner that he didn't care whether it was legal or not- he was arresting anyone he caught with a machinegun. I feel like I am playing LEO lottery everytime I am stopped-haven't been stopped in over a year thank you very much. Especially if I happened to have my machineguns in the car. |
||
|
Don't bring a dog into it, that's a whole different field of search and seizure, and people are confused enough already. Courts have upheld inventory searches on numerous occasions. If locks etc are forced it is going to be dependant on dept policy. |
||||||||
|
This sounds like an internet line of bull. Since I live within a 5 minute walk of the Gun Store, I'll stop in and talk to them about it. BTW: It's in Cedar Park, not Austin. I've called out assholes in the shop before attributing bullshit stories such as this to MY dept. |
|
|
Look for "search incident to an arrest" R. |
|
|
The most recent attack on honest law-abiding gun owners has been a top thread for several weeks now: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=8&t=202166
§ 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells: (1) an explosive weapon; (2) a machine gun; (3) a short-barrel firearm; (4) a firearm silencer; (5) a switchblade knife; (6) knuckles; (7) armor-piercing ammunition; (8) a chemical dispensing device; or (9) a zip gun. (b) ... (c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended. What are we missing from our reading of the law? |
||
|
Yup. in the the future when dealing with the cops my responses will go like this: Here is my ID. I have nothing illegal on my person or in my vehicle. Am i under arrest? Am i free to go? I need to talk to my attorny. I have no faith in law enforcement anymore. "To protect and serve" yeah right. Ben, The Emu One other thing, when the office put a authorization to seach form in front of me and i refused he was pissed. My electric back window is broken and they had to crawl all through by truck which was covered in red texas panhandle dirt. Ha-ha. |
||
|
It is.
Lying is a crime. Not answering is not a crime. If you are pulled over the only thing that you legally have to provide is your drivers liscense, insurance, and registration. You dont have to engage in chit chat with any police officer, you dont have to answer any of thier questions. Personally I have no problem answering some of thier questions, but if I dont feel like answering I would just say "sir or maam, I dont think that is any of your business and I'm not going to answer that question." If someone ever asked if I had drugs or guns in the car I would answer "I have no illegal drugs or illegal weapons in my vehicle." Notice that is not an answer to the question you were asked, that could be a statement of fact. Hopefully the officer in question wouldnt notice and he would carry on unawares, but if he presses the issue just state that its none of his business. |
||
|
Not internet bullshit, but 2nd hand from a reliable source. I will confirm it personally when I go to Austin this week to prove up a divorce and stop in at the gun store. |
||
|
Well good for you. My opinion of your internet persona and you is always open to amendment and change for the better.
Nope, never prefessed a desire to break the law in your jurisdiction, the thread was discussing whose responsibility a citizen's safety was and you had the opinion that citizens should rely on the government first. Nope, no link and I didn't bother saving the IMs. It was a year or so ago.
I guess you read the above post so I don't need to further educate you on this. Federal laws are often mirrored by state laws. Your statement, however, is a prime reason to not let people like you know what people like me have in their locked cases.
That's the crux of the issue. You and most of the good guys wouldn't, however, some are and they are hassling good guys about legal weapons.
Again, some of the less than reputable LEOs use consent searches as fishing expeditions. Hell, some use inventory searches as fishing expeditions and arrest merely to search.
I expect to get a citation for breaking the law. Its a pleasant surprise if I don't. I act accordingly.
Fair enough, bringing the dog into it changes the fact pattern. Also, It is my understanding that it is a misdemenor to lie to a police officer. |
|||||||
|
So, do we have a summary here?
1. No, cops cannot generally open locked boxes without your permission or probable cause for a simple traffic stop. 2. Its against the law to lie to the Police officer, but you can simply refuse to answer a. No cite for this yet 3. If you are carrying with a CHL, you must dislcose your carry handgun a. Unanswered question- do you have to disclose all weapons in your vehicle or just the weapon at hand? 4. If you disclose that you have weapons you don;t have to open the locked cases to allow the LEO to check the serial numbers 4. If you are arrested, the LEOs can open locked cases pursuant to inventory search of vehicle a. If keys are on your key ring- they can open locked cases b. Unanswered- can they force locked packages open absent exigent circumstances |
|
|
|
|
Thanks, that helps clear it up. |
|
|
It amazes me how far the gap has grown between 'police' and 'citizen' in this country. You can be in violation of no gun law, but still have your weapons seized, property confiscated and the legal headache of tryingto get it all back. If there is nothign 'wrong' with the system, why do most people get nervous every time a cop appears on the rearview? TRG |
||
|
Ya know, its a damned shame now that every encounter you have from here on out with LEO's is going to be tainted by some dork who stepped on his dick. I need to memorize your answers... they seem to be really good. Would a LEO on here please comment on their merit? |
|||
|
|
|||
|
|
|
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.