Does the Ben Avery range have any rules against FA use at the public range? It's been a while since I've been out there (I usually go to Rio Salado) and I just want to make sure that there hasnt been any rule change (like RIo's silly no FA on Sunday rule). I checked their site and they don't have any details about what can/cannot be used there.

I haven't been in over a year.  But the last time I was there FA was fine.  BUT, all FA fire was from a seated position.  Personally, I find this stupid as it is easier to control a FA standing IMO.  But there it is.

And you actually have to have a target/target stand out there.

I was shooting a friend's Suomi, American 180 and some other things...one of the Range Nazi's came over yelling at us, waving around a rule book, screaming 'YOU HAVE TO SIT DOWN....IT"S RIGHT HERE IN THE BOOK".  Wow.  I've been going to BA for YEARS and that was the first time some guy did that.

Anyway, loaded a drum on the '180, sat down and did a burst, then did another and....it ran away.  Luckily, a .22 is easy to control.  Unluckily, it was a full 275=rd drum.  I sat there for a while, whilst the range Nazi ran down, frothing at the mouth about it, and my friend told him there wasn't anything we could do until it ran out of ammo.

That was fun...and got a lot of looks.  :)

Admit it; You did that on purpose Tim just to see if the guy would have a coronary!

sitting and shooting a G3 ought to be a hoot to watch .

No, but it was amusing once it started....

"Stop that"

Can't...it's a dirty gun and it won't stop until it runs out of ammo.

"how long will that be?"

"275 rounds..."

ARRRRRRRggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh

It would have been funny as hell if you had handed him the weapon and said "Here; YOU stop it". Dangerous as all heck, but funny as hell just the same!

It's been years, but once at B.A., , I was trying to educe malfunctions in a formerly problematic EBR by giving it numerous NSR's (5-7 very, very, very,,, quick single action shots) when two of the range nazi came up to me yelling about having to be seated while doing full auto.

With much cynicism, I told them 'It's not full auto, but thanks for playing", faced down range again, and did it again, and again.

By that time, a third nazi who looked like he was going to go full coronary came running up.
Before he could get within four bays of me, I the other range guys shut him down.

At the break, one of the first guys came up and complemented me on my trigger speed, but added with a smile that he thought the coronary guy was still a heart beat away from an ambulance ride.

Jay

Last time I was there, we shot full auto with one stipulation..... Range Master said we could'nt stand up while shoot FA.....

Hmmm.... Seated isn't great, but it'll have to do. Just a couple of subguns, anyway. No G3 today.  

Greg, you may also prone out.

I'll be in class at noon today at the Smallbore range.

BTW - welcome home!

Class? All I saw where some poeple sleeping under a tree over there.... but that was around 10:30....

Yeah, good to be back for a few weeks. Good timing to be here for the subgun match (I hope I get in, I'm waiting to hear back). I needed to check to make sure I remembered how mine worked. I plan to have a good time and not worry about how I do during the match since I'm too rusty to be much of a challenge to anyone.

Dang, you were there bout 30mins before me.
Yeah, I saw them too, musta been hippees or sumthin like that.

It was Patrol Rifle class.
Good times.

i hate ben avery.  all of the range masters are fing morons.  last time i was there one of the range masters came up to me and told me that my rifle had to be in the rack or on the shooting table.  OK i have a TPD AXR (and AUG clone) first of all it was completely dissembled and cooling off at the time i has 2 .22, a raging bull and a xd 45 tactical and ammo,  so there was no room on the bench for anything else. second it is only 26 3/4" in total length it does not fit in the rifle racks they have there.  the second thing i hate about ben avery is they done let you pick up brass anymore.  as i was picking up my brass the same range master came up to me and told me to stop picking up brass because as soon as it hits the ground it is property of ben avery.  i proceed to tell him that that was some bull shit and picked up my brass and went home.  if you need to go to a range and are in the west valley go to joe foss in buckeye.  all of the guys there are volunteer and are really nice and they enjoy there work.  the best part is the range is A LOT nicer then ben avery and i have never had to wait to shoot.  the only down side is they are only open firday staturday and sunday.  but the best news is i dont think they have any restrictions on full auto.  rules as follows

# Firearms shall be pointed toward the backstop.
# Fingers shall remain off the trigger until your sights are aligned and you are ready to shoot.
# Actions shall remain open and unloaded during a "cease fire" and while not shooting.
# Do not cross the red line untill instructed by rangemaster (during "cease fire").
# At "cease fire" command, do the following tasks in the following order while while pointing firearm toward backstop:

  1. Remove finger from trigger guard.
  2. Remove magazine, if present.
  3. Unload action
  4. Leave firearm on table
  5. Step behind the yellow line

# No handling of firearms or ammunition during "cease fire".
# Check in with rangemaster before bringing equipment to shooting tables.
# Use approved targets in approved target frames only.
# Place targets in a manner that will cause bullets to impact the backstop
# Use of armor piercing, tracer, incendiary or explosive ammunition prohibited.
# Use of .50 BMG ammunition is not permitted.
# Eye and ear protection required.
# No eating, drinking or smoking on the range.
# Wash your hands after shooting.

I never heard of the concept that the brass is theirs once it hits the ground.  I haven't been in a long time but when I used to go a lot there was no problem retrieving your own brass.  Was there some other issue?  Was another shooter complaining that it was his brass?  Complete bullshit if that is a new policy.

I don't really have a problem with the rules relating to where firearms are.  If your AUG won't stand up in the rack (there are ways BTW) then it needs to be on the table pointing downrange or in a case.  If it is cooling off and you can't figure out how to stand it in a rack then leave it on the table.  Te rest of us can not tell if it is half assembled.  Too many people there and too many people new to firearms who don't know when their weapon is loaded or not.  They don't know if you are one of them.  So I don't fault the rule or the enforcement of it.

I need to get out shooting.  Maybe tomorrow and I'll check back with an update.

FWIW, I had no problem with picking up my brass when at Ben Avery on Sunday. Good thing, too, since I filled a 1-gallon ziplock bag with my 9mm casings.

Ben Avery used to be a nice range until the game and fish nazis took over. I go there only as a last resort. When it was county we had a great time at the range. If there was a bunch of us they would let us take another range for our use so we didn't disturb everyone else. I remember when the little short grey haired game and fish asshole started the full auto seated bullshit as it was me and my group it was directed at because he hates machine guns. We were there having a good time and being safe and he started changing the rules every five minutes. Organized a shoot with 30 full auto guys and we would sit and shoot a burst and then stand and fire two rounds semi auto and repeat. We did that for several weekends and he tried to create a rule about that too.

You can personally thank me for that being in their rule book because this ass clown was making shit up so I told him if it is in a rule book then I will comply but until the fuck off and I started standing and shooting full auto again. I filed a complaint about him and I believe he was removed from the range. Eventually they made a rule book and put that in it. I shoot in the desert mostly now. I took time to talk to anyone that came by my bench about machine guns and let a ton of people shoot my guns with my ammo. Mr short shit range jerk hated that. Even had parents bring their kids by and I let them shoot a belt of ten through the .30 with their parents.

Fuck Ben Avery range and the nazis that run it now. My advice is go to the other range as the last time I had suppressors out there their Ro's were demanding to see paper work and I told them when they got a gun and a badge I would let them see it and they finally dropped it. There is a woman that works in the stand that is a total bitch and will sit and yell and belittle people over nothing, called her on it the last time I was there and she started screaming at me and got in trouble, Maricopa County needs to boot these pricks from the range.

Seriously, go somewhere else where they don't treat you like shit after they collect your money.

"And you actually have to have a target/target stand out there. "

You can thank me for this rule too. They had someone actually keeping tabs of how many bullets hit my target stand and wanted to actually charge me $50 for a stand when the actual charge was under $10 for a stand . I actually used to donate money for the stands and they gave me shit for it. We solved the bullets hitting the stand problem on one of the stand up and sit down shoots by not using stands.

I don't go to Ben Avery anymore. Too many asshole RO's and too many dangerous shooters. I understand these guys are mostly volunteers, but if volunteering stresses you out that much or you are that much of a cranky old bastard because you have to RO maybe its time to stop volunteering.

They told me it was their brass as soon as it came out of the gun last time I was there and I laughed at him and picked it up. Second guy comes over and tells me to stop and I told hem what to do to himself. They got the point and left me alone. Last time they also attempted to pick up a very high dollar rifle and I held it to the bench and pointed out the open ejection port with no magazine and told him to get his hands off my rifle. Told him if was going to be a RO he needed to learn his shit about guns and you never touch another mans gun without permission.

They really seem to love the old men with 3 screw Rugers at Ben Avery, bring a evil assault rifle and they screw with you.

Back in the old days it was old guys who ran the range and they were not paid. A lot were vets and they came around and talked about guns and using that gun in the war and haven't shot one in 20 years. I always pulled out a few rounds and let them fire it. Had my AN-M2 .30 at the range and there was a Ro who was a gunner in WW2 and went on and told me how many nazi planes he had shot at with one. He brought his grandson out the next weekend to see the gun as I told him I would bring it and I let him shoot a 100 round belt through it and a 100 round belt for his grandfather too. Kid and gramps got their picture taken with the gun. That was the good old days at Ben Avery. It was safe, Ro's were polite and we had a good time, until the nazis came. Like I said, fuck game and fish.

You guys are depressing me.  I'm gonna go shooting this week with a FA and a suppressor.  I will report back what I see.

I loved it when George Dean (now with TacTrain) was working the range.  When G&F took over, yeah, it went downhill.

As for the brass, I got yelled at for picking up brass from the guy next to me, who was done and said I could have it.  RO said if I didn't shoot it, I couldn't have it.  Screw them if they tell me I can't pick up my OWN brass.  I might have to go up there just to experience that.  

i know this is an aug a2 not a TPD AXR but the brake down has essentially the same parts...if you have any questions about that please see this thred

with the exception of the hammer pack this is what it was broken down to...you cant tell me you don't know the rifle is dissembled.  maybe if you were a moron (not saying you are but the rest of the unknowing public) you would think so but it makes my head hurt to think about people that stupid.

and there is no way in hell i am trusting a dowel rod a of 3/16" to hold up a $3000+ rifle w/ optic.  i guess i just wont go to ben avery any more



o yeah the one and only time i went to rio salado it was on a sunday and an older gentleman had an WWII era belt fed machine gun.  one of the range masters came up to him and politely said said that automatic fire was not allowed on sundays do to the agreement that they had with the local home owners...this made me and my friend chuckle.  more ranges need steal plates to shoot at

at least i am not the only one

Good information about BA as I haven't been there in awhile. Thought about heading over there this weekend, but now I think i'll just go somewhere else, or maybe i'll just save up a bit more and start up an AR build.... piece by piece. lol.

BTW: All your page 2 are belong to me.

Funny,,,

I don't remember what brought it on, (I think maybe he thought it looked like I was going to pickup my gun during a break) but one day a few years ago, one of the range nazi made a suggestion that 'for a minute, he thought he might have had to have a G&F cop pick up, or take my gun'.

I gave him that look ( wait a minute: I always look like that ) and told him if they ever felt like booting me from the range for any reason, to knock themselves out, but the day any of them attempted to touch any of my guns without my permission, would be one of the sorriest days in B.A. history.

I figured for sure after that, I'd get the boot right away, or a visit from one of the GF cops, but it never happened.
I've been back since, so no photo recognition alerts when I went back.

I've also picked up my brass after shooting, and haven't been approached by any of the nazi.

Jay

are these the hours they are open this time of year?

Monday – Closed
Tuesday – Closed
Wednesday – 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.
Thursday – 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.
Friday – 8 a.m. to 3 p.m.
Saturday – 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.
Sunday – 8 a.m. to 3 p.m.

When I was shooting much more often, I'd go to BA & spend a large part of the day. Not all the rules they try to enforce are documented anywhere except in the minds of the RO's.  The "rule board" that used to be posted, didn't have 1/3rd of the rules they kept coming up with.

Back in the day, they used to let the RO's open carry. They lost a lot of volunteers when they banned that practice.

Last time I went, they had opened the 'checkin/store'." Ve Haf Veys of making you comply" seemed to be the theme of the day. I commented on all the new rules and regs, and one of the clerks kept insisting he'd seen me "just last week" -  I hadn't been there in 6 months. Haven't been back in a while. Since then, hours of operation have been cut, additional regs put in place (all guns must be encased, etc..), and it just doesn't seem as friendly. YMMV

coulda pulled the charging handle

I didn't know that since it wasn't my weapon, and my friend didn't suggest it.  Besides, a 275 round burst was fun, if a little boring after the first 100 rounds or so.. :)

I also have an AUG.  I missed the part where you had it broken down this far.  It is asinine to care what you do with PARTS of a gun.  If they are really that weird BA has gone way downhill.  I used to go a lot when the volunteers worked the place alone.  Even when FG took over at first it was OK.  Haven't been for a while.  Problem is, it is a lot easier to go there than the desert since I go so rarely.  I'm never sure where is legal or not anymore.

Joe Foss FTMFW!!!
It really is a sweet range, plus it's named after Joe Foss so that's automatically badass.

Over the last 10 years I've watched BA very steadily decline as a shooting facility. About the time they made me cut the arms off my silhouette target was about the time I explored as many other shooting options as I could. But in the 5 years since then I've occasionally stopped by and I always end up shaking my head at whatever new stupidity they come up with. I can't help wondering if it's on purpose to get people to stop going there. Last time I was there was maybe 6 months ago. At the one minute warning they were only letting you remove the magazine and fire the remaining round in the chamber. If you fired more than that they yelled at you. Well what if I'm practicing some rapid-firing? What's the point of a "one minute warning" if it actually means "stop shooting now?" Fucking retards. Honestly if BA was competing with Rio Salado for the Stupidest Bullshit prize, I don't know which would win. Rio has some different rules from BA that are just as fucktarded. I really miss the old days when it was really easy to go shoot in the desert.

/rant off

it was funny that day because they kept a really close eye on me.  

mind you i am just a 24 y/o "punk kid"=strike one
i have an assault rifle that may look illegal to those who are not educated in a bullpup class of rifles=strike two
i was shooting as fast as i could pull the trigger to test for malfunctions of my trigger work...no malfunctions all rounds hit my target at 50 yards...it was flawless (4.9lbs and 3mm of trigger movement in an AUG clone is sweet )=strike three

so i get why they were watching me.  but i did not go by my self.  i had two of my friends with me.  one is 40y/o and the other is 35y/o so i had some adult supervision...lol  not to mention i have been shooting for 20 or so years.  i have had gun safety drilled in to my head ever since i was a child and have been around guns my whole life.  i always keep the weapon pointed down range.  i never put my finger in the trigger well until i my ready to shoot (your finer is the best safety) all that good stuff and so on.  i relaize that they do not know all of this but i would like to think that they can watch me for a bit and know i am at the very lease safe.  now the reason i am telling you all this is because about 4 shooting tables down there were 2 guys shooting a revolver and a semi auto pistol.

they did not have a target stand down range when they started shooting
they were shooting at the ground about 3 feet in front of the red firing line
one on the guys picks up the loaded revolver and looks at the side of the pistol with his finger on the trigger with the muzzle pointed at the guy next to him and lined up with everyone else that was shooting
and last but not least the semi auto was malfunctioning. sometimes it would go full auto. sometimes burst. sometimes it would not fire at all.  sometimes they touched the trigger once and the pistol would fire till it was dry...finger on the trigger or not.  

so my question is why don't they keep an eye on those who are a danger to everyone around them and let me pick up my brass in piece?
i know the state is hurting for money at the moment but how much money are they going to make off of my 200 pieces of brass i want to pick up.

Well, you just explained it.  Durn kids

Yeah, I have seen some horror shows at BA over the years.  I prefer shooting in the desert.  Alas, even when you go with a group it seems there are some people who just can't figure out simple gun safety.  

I am too busy to go shooting today and tomorrow is golf.  Guess next week since I refuse to be there with the weekend crowd.

I was there last week.    I spent a good part of the cease fire picking up brass in front of my table, mine and any other I liked and nobody said anything to me.    If I paid for brass, it is mine, and I will be taking it home if I choose to pick it up.   If they tell me I can't scrounge for other brass, fine, but I'm taking my own property unless they want to negotiate buying it from me. They can't make it stick that you can't pick up your own brass.  

At a public range, it is perfectly reasonable to require the gun either be on the table pointed downrange, cased on the back bench, or if uncased be in a rack.   Lots of people are inexperienced and you can't give them the leeway you could give proven, experieneced safe shooters.   I dont want guns setting around back there pointing willy-nilly any direction, whether taken apart or not.   It shouldn't be up to a range asst to have to spend time at the back bench to determine if your "parts" are safe or not.   If you get done shooting, case your parts up and they can sit any way you want them to.  

It was stupid when BA got politically correct and made people tape over the ears (or tear arms off) on silouette targets because they look "human."    That was in response to people posting pictures of their ex to shoot at, and the like.  They have backed off that baloney, fortunately.  

I think making you sit down to shoot full auto is stupid.

Some people get irritated when thre rangemaster hollers at them when they go to the front table during the cease fire.    I have never found that to be excessive.   They are just driving home a point.....stay away from the firearm during the cease fire when people are downrange.    

I think other than the full auto sitting requirement, they are pretty reasonable, at least in the last couple years.

I dunno.... they made me sit to shoot full auto at a target, yet the bozo 4 tables down from me was bump firing while standing and not even shooting at a target, and the RO said nothing. I guarantee you that my wife was shooting tighter groups with the subgun and had better control of the weapon.

I'd be irritated at that, too.