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Posted: 1/4/2005 6:36:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 10:34:36 AM EDT by EdAvilaSr]
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 7:06:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 9:21:41 AM EDT by ASUsax]
Tag - I go away for the weekend and I'm still trying to figure out what's going on...

ETA: I think I'm just going to go get some popcorn...
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 7:08:26 AM EDT
They are still criminals
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 8:04:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 8:05:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EdAvilaSr:

Originally Posted By Biggame223:
They are still criminals



Nobody is disputing that.So, call them illegal alliens,alliens who are criminally here,etc,etc?
How many here would not carry illegally if we had to thinking we might need it to defend our families?

We would be "criminals" and the antgunners could fear us,but it would not give them the right to call us potential murderers over parking space disputes.......as they often claim!



That analogy is a bit of a stretch...
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 8:07:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 8:12:04 AM EDT by 89grand]
Well I for one have always refered to them as illegal aliens, at least when discussing the problem out in the open, so not using some of the other terms doesn't bother me.

It's clear in your writing that you feel differently from those of us that actually see the problem first hand instead of reading about it from the east coast. With such things you wrote as "While nobody can force you to look at this problem from the point of view of the less fortunate Mexicans who come looking for a better life for their family" (that statement is a common misconception and simply does not apply to all of them) or this "...whatever term you might find amusing, as you "rejoice" in their suffering" (it's our suffering we are talking about and concerned about, not theirs, nothing wrong with that),it's clear that you sympathize with them for whatever reason and expect us to, but most of us that live here on the other hand do not and for good reason.

I'm not going to try debate you on whether they are a huge problem or not, they are, but you clearly don't think or want to think they are. I could list crime statistics and financial problems directly related to illegal aliens that you would find staggering, but like I said debating you is not the point right now.

This being said, I respect you not wanting certain terms used even though I don't understand it.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 8:11:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 8:17:38 AM EDT
I hate to say it, but your message has appeared to be nothing more than the defense of illegal aliens. This will probably get me banned, but I know what the problems are associated with illegal aliens first hand. I don't want or need someone else, especially outside of  AZ telling me the only problem with illegal aliens are those of us that don't like it.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 8:23:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 89grand:
I hate to say it, but your message has appeared to be nothing more than the defense of illegal aliens. This will probably get me banned, but I know what the problems are associated with illegal aliens first hand. I don't want or need someone else, especially outside of  AZ telling me the only problem with illegal aliens are those of us that don't like it.



I'd agree that it reads that way too, however, I also agree that there is really no reason to be using any slurs when discussing the issue.   Secondarily, it his site - and we should either obey the rules/COC or not be posting.

The use of these slurs are understandable, as the illegal issue here is a huge one that inspires much emotion on either side of the issue - but it doesn't mean its right to use the slurs.

...and believe me, I'm not about defending the illegals - I think we need a mine field.  
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 8:38:14 AM EDT
i agree with ed on this, but i am not from arizona...


they are criminals, and here illegaly, but we need not laugh at their situation, or poke fun at them by calling them names, such things are reserved for children on the playground, but we here are mature, and need not treat other nationalities as scum because of where they are from

illegal aliens, illegal immigrants, illegal mexicans.... cool

wetback, taco, spic, not cool, i have mexican friends, they are not all that bad....

ps, i can understand people from AZ, Texas, NV, and So CA having issues with the immigration troubles in your area, and can understand the frustration, and even the temptation to become more and more anti anything from south of the border, but we are above that

i fight all the time with the temptation to become prejudice and hateful/mean to anyone who looks like they may be from a middle eastern country, and I win
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 8:42:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 9:35:49 AM EDT by marcoh]
I'm fairly new to arfcom and newer still to the AZ&NM forum so there's probably a history between individuals with which I'm not familiar, but geez, what does Ed have to do to get a break around here?  Even if there were no alternatives for unrestrained self-expression like email, IM, etc, I don't think it would be too much for Ed to ask that this forum abide by the same standards as on the main arfcom boards.   Maybe I'm still too new to know otherwise, but it seems as if some of the conduct around here would never be tolerated over there.

Now, if conduct code enforcement has been wrongfully selective, that'd be a reason for a popular uprising.  But even given that, nothing will alter the fact that we're all guests on Ed's nickel.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 8:55:08 AM EDT
No one was using any of the common slang words. They were saying Temporarily Out of Native Country.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 9:07:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
i agree with ed on this, but i am not from arizona...


they are criminals, and here illegaly, but we need not laugh at their situation, or poke fun at them by calling them names, such things are reserved for children on the playground, but we here are mature, and need not treat other nationalities as scum because of where they are from

illegal aliens, illegal immigrants, illegal mexicans.... cool

wetback, taco, spic, not cool, i have mexican friends, they are not all that bad....

ps, i can understand people from AZ, Texas, NV, and So CA having issues with the immigration troubles in your area, and can understand the frustration, and even the temptation to become more and more anti anything from south of the border, but we are above that

i fight all the time with the temptation to become prejudice and hateful/mean to anyone who looks like they may be from a middle eastern country, and I win



It's not simply about people living South of our border.  It's not about Mexicans in Mexico, it's not about Mexicans who immigrated here legally, it's about criminals who cause a great deal of damage to our country and our communities.  What's next, will I no longer be allowed to call a child molestor a scumbag around here?  And as far as the problems that arose from the use of the forbidden word, you can blame the heavy handedness of the staff for that.  Most of us probably didn't even know what it meant before it became forbidden.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 9:08:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 9:10:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 9:12:21 AM EDT by AZ-K9]
Illegal Mexican is ok, and Tonk is not? OOOOOOKKKKKKKAAAAAYYYYYY....




Raft Monkey.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 9:31:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 9:33:08 AM EDT by 89grand]

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By 89grand:
No one was using any of the common slang words. They were saying Temporarily Out of Native Country.



And you were asked (nicely at first, several times) to NOT use that term--it's the same thing as the "common slang words."  I implore you (and everyone) to drop this.  When Ed Sr. loses his temper and begins posting in LARGE BOLD CAPITAL LETTERS, it's time to tiptoe inconspicuously out of the room.  Heed this.  



Shit, I only posted that because people started acting as if we were saying things like spic, wetback and stuff like that, although this now refered to "t-word" is oddly considered even worse than spic and wetback...whatever.  I already said in my first post on this thread that I refer to them as illegal aliens when speaking publicly, I've never even heard the tonc word except here recently. I was setting these few people straight that don't know what the hell is even going on, but yet pipe in with stuff like "I agree with Ed, no one should say spic  and wetback" when that wasn't even said by anybody.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 9:32:00 AM EDT
Happy w00t! year, All!
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 9:36:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 9:36:56 AM EDT by SHIVAN]


...........Gotta run..........
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:03:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:10:53 AM EDT

or whatever term you might find amusing, as you "rejoice" in their suffering.


No, quite the contrary, I probably have more contact with these people than most of the members of this board combined.
I have seen the suffering of families torn apart, the bodies found dessicated in the desert, the bodies piled up after a load vehicle crashed, the childern orphaned and the mysery inflicted while the dream of freedom and enough to eat is the hope of a new future.
I've shed tears for the innocent, raged against the inhumanity, and become a hard and calloused individual to the pain inflicted.
Name the country and I have seen their faces, I have seen their fear, I have seen their live's ruined for the promise of the country with streets paved with gold.
"Rejoice" is not one of the words I would ever choose to describe my feelings towards those that I deal with every day.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:13:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 10:13:55 AM EDT by NAM]

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:

Raft Monkey.



Lol...hey, you heard what he said:

Originally Posted by EdAvilaSr:
I personally am secure with who I am, and couldn't care less if you call me a spic,raft monkey or whatever you think is insulting to me.



Be careful what you wish for Ed. lol...(meant in good fun of course)

Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:13:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:15:58 AM EDT
How about "The Bicycle People?"  Certain areas are littered with bikes, I found 22 in one stash.  

Mike
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:17:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AZ_newguy:
How about "The Bicycle People?"  Certain areas are littered with bikes, I found 22 in one stash.  

Mike



Group buy?
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:18:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunslinger808:

Originally Posted By AZ_newguy:
How about "The Bicycle People?"  Certain areas are littered with bikes, I found 22 in one stash.  

Mike



Group buy?


You know what I'm sayin'.

Mike
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:24:54 AM EDT
Calling 'em criminals, illegals, felons - those are all appropriate words to describe what they are.

To use racial terms is uneccessary and undermines the argument in the first place.

Although I'm not sure that the T word is a racial term....there's alot of OTMs too....

hmph.

Well, in the end , its Ed's board and Ed's rules, so I'm happy to abide.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:33:25 AM EDT
The problem from my point of view is I think those that don't live here really don't understand how bad it is here.
Our anger come from our media who have all kinds of PC names for illegals.  They don't call them what they are.  They use "undocumented worker" or "border crosser" which makes it seem like they are all just coming over for a daytrip.
We have local groups who thwart lawful efforts by our border patrol  and defy laws by setting up aid stations for the illegals.
We have the president of mexico publishing a "how to" book for illegals.
Our schools and health care systems are overun.
Our welfare system is a joke.
These nice people just looking for a better life have murdered, raped and thieved all over southern AZ....hence the Ranch Rescue people.
They leave garbage and destroy our lands.
And NOTHING is done because the aztlan lobby will be all over like a cheap sombrero if you try to do anything.
We are fed up and this shows in our frustrations here.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:38:36 AM EDT
I'm sensing a great disturbance in the w00t!

Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:41:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
The problem from my point of view is I think those that don't live here really don't understand how bad it is here.
Our anger come from our media who have all kinds of PC names for illegals.  They don't call them what they are.  They use "undocumented worker" or "border crosser" which makes it seem like they are all just coming over for a daytrip.
We have local groups who thwart lawful efforts by our border patrol  and defy laws by setting up aid stations for the illegals.
We have the president of mexico publishing a "how to" book for illegals.
Our schools and health care systems are overun.
Our welfare system is a joke.
These nice people just looking for a better life have murdered, raped and thieved all over southern AZ....hence the Ranch Rescue people.
They leave garbage and destroy our lands.
And NOTHING is done because the aztlan lobby will be all over like a cheap sombrero if you try to do anything.
We are fed up and this shows in our frustrations here.



+1
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:48:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:50:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 10:54:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:

Originally Posted By 89grand:
I hate to say it, but your message has appeared to be nothing more than the defense of illegal aliens. This will probably get me banned, but I know what the problems are associated with illegal aliens first hand. I don't want or need someone else, especially outside of  AZ telling me the only problem with illegal aliens are those of us that don't like it.



I'd agree that it reads that way too, however, I also agree that there is really no reason to be using any slurs when discussing the issue.   Secondarily, it his site - and we should either obey the rules/COC or not be posting.

The use of these slurs are understandable, as the illegal issue here is a huge one that inspires much emotion on either side of the issue - but it doesn't mean its right to use the slurs.

...and believe me, I'm not about defending the illegals - I think we need a mine field.  



Sorry guys, but if that's the way you read it, then your reading comprehension is severely lacking.  Seriously.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 11:03:45 AM EDT
My account was locked for a kill them all statement in a thread about terrorists killing a female hostage. The quote was in Latin from the days of the Crusades.

I have never figured out what site staff thought they prevented or solved by locking me.

I'm starting to put together a rather unpleasant profile of Aimless. He's an attorney that has stated he represented illegal immigrants. Locked me for wanting to kill terrorists. I could go on but you get the general picture where I'm headed.

Thebeekeeper has really managed to stir up the forums with his posts. No real need to say more here other than he did a lot more harm than good.

I think you can understand why I'm questioning my support for this site.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 11:12:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EdAvilaSr:
I have said "AD NAUSEUM" that all I ask you to do, is not use derogatory terms.I also asked if that was too much to request?



It would seem that part of the issue lies in the context in which the word (or any word) is used. At the start of this little fiasco, the term was used to describe a specific demographic, the majority of which, happened to be Hispanic. Used as such, it became a racial identifier similar to honky, redneck, cracker, etc. The term in its original context was simply an amusing reference to those who deserve to be beaten over the head by police, regardless of ethnicity or legal status. If you were aware of the area of town being referenced at the time, I don't think you'd argue that it was used appropriately. Most police won't travel that area at night alone.

It appears that the non-AZ perception of the general use of the word tonk is similar to the term "skinny" referred to in Black Hawk Down. The term had a deliberately degrading meaning due to its context which poked fun at the Somali's lack of sustinance. The general perception of the term by AZ folks is not derogatory, nor is it (at its root) an ethnic label.

So the term itself is not necessarily derogatory, but rather the manner in which it is used. To request that it not be used in a deliberately demeaning manner I think is totally acceptable. It does however have it's legitimate and non-derogatory use. If you think about it, it's a very versatile word, similar to f*ck.

<joking on>
As a Noun -1. An individual who deserves a good beating by police. "I was so pissed at this tonk (or tonker) who flew through that four-way stop"  2. A hollow impact sound. "I was out front hitting rocks with a whiffle bat, you should have heard the tonk."

As a Verb - The process of beating on a person or object with an implement causing a hollow metalic sound. "I had to tonk the crap out of that bolt to get it off."

As an Adjective - Of, or similar to, a hollow sound. "Everytime I go over a bump in my car, I hear a tonkish sound in the rear end."

As an Adverb - "Man, that thing is tonk ugly." meaning, it needs to be beaten out of its misery.
</joking>
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 11:19:38 AM EDT
Let me say this, I have no problem with Eds request. His/Their forum, their rules...whatever. I just feel that the ultimatum was a bit of a large blanket statement that was pointing to everyone as some kind of dirty ugly racist person. It insinuated that many here were racist and unforgiving to what many here, including myself, consider criminals. Not to mention TBK1's response to Derek basically calling him a racist without calling him one, was a bit over the top IMO.. The whole illegal immigration issue has been covered by several others here, so I won't go into why I feel the way that I do about illegals. But I can say, as someone who has lived in AZ his entire life (32 years) this is the worst it's ever been here and continuing to go that direction.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 11:30:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 11:35:28 AM EDT by Joe_Blacke]
To make one point:

Calling an illegal a "T-word" is the exact same as calling another criminal a "perp".  It's not a racial thing by its nature, but it can be perverted when used in a racial context.  It is far less derogatory than calling someone a "spic" or "wetback" with apparently Ed has no problem with.

As for the illegals themselves, long gone is the days when they came here for a better life.  By far, the majority are here to take whatever they can and send it back to Mexico for their families or for their "retirement".  You would be hard pressed to find one who intends on staying in America or actually becoming a citizen.

Ask anyone who has lived in the "square" what they think about illegal immigration.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 11:44:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chimborazo:

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:

Originally Posted By 89grand:
I hate to say it, but your message has appeared to be nothing more than the defense of illegal aliens. This will probably get me banned, but I know what the problems are associated with illegal aliens first hand. I don't want or need someone else, especially outside of  AZ telling me the only problem with illegal aliens are those of us that don't like it.



I'd agree that it reads that way too, however, I also agree that there is really no reason to be using any slurs when discussing the issue.   Secondarily, it his site - and we should either obey the rules/COC or not be posting.

The use of these slurs are understandable, as the illegal issue here is a huge one that inspires much emotion on either side of the issue - but it doesn't mean its right to use the slurs.

...and believe me, I'm not about defending the illegals - I think we need a mine field.  



Sorry guys, but if that's the way you read it, then your reading comprehension is severely lacking.  Seriously.



Really? Thanks for the heads up, that really helped. I figured someone in VA would have a better understanding than I did.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 11:53:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 11:53:52 AM EDT by Chimborazo]

Originally Posted By 89grand:

Originally Posted By Chimborazo:

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:

Originally Posted By 89grand:
I hate to say it, but your message has appeared to be nothing more than the defense of illegal aliens. This will probably get me banned, but I know what the problems are associated with illegal aliens first hand. I don't want or need someone else, especially outside of  AZ telling me the only problem with illegal aliens are those of us that don't like it.



I'd agree that it reads that way too, however, I also agree that there is really no reason to be using any slurs when discussing the issue.   Secondarily, it his site - and we should either obey the rules/COC or not be posting.

The use of these slurs are understandable, as the illegal issue here is a huge one that inspires much emotion on either side of the issue - but it doesn't mean its right to use the slurs.

...and believe me, I'm not about defending the illegals - I think we need a mine field.  



Sorry guys, but if that's the way you read it, then your reading comprehension is severely lacking.  Seriously.



Really? Thanks for the heads up, that really helped. I figured someone in VA would have a better understanding than I did.



I don't have to be from Arizona to know how to read.  How, in any way, did Ed tell you how to feel about illegal aliens?  How did he defend them?  You obviously did not get the point of his post.  In fact, allow me to quote:


Originally posted by EDAvilaSr:
Again,I am not suggesting you should not be angry at the problems brought on by illegal immigration.I am not even asking that you stop discussing it here.



So, if you want to defend your comprehension of Ed's post and stand by your statements above, start by taking Ed up on his challenge to you.

Then again, what do I know...I'm just some idiot from Virginia.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 11:57:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Joe_Blacke:
Ask anyone who has lived in the "square" what they think about illegal immigration.



Years ago I lived on the edge of the square at 38th Street and Bell. What a shithole.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 12:23:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 12:30:21 PM EDT by EdAvilaSr]
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 12:47:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 12:48:11 PM EDT by Joe_Blacke]
Ed,

So you are not offended when someone calls you a racially derrogatory comment.  Are you then offended if that same comment is used towards a third party?  That sounds a little duplicitous.

Either a racial slur is offensive, or it is not.  You can't really expect us to abide by whatever moderator/staff/admin finds offensive at any particular point.  That would be quite subjective, and relative to whomever is reading it.

I would agree that comments of a racial nature are ill advised on this forum.  However, I think that we have fallen into a trap of damning a word because of the CONTEXTUAL nature in which it was used.  The banning of a word will not remove racial predjudice, nor change anyone's mind regardling illegal immigrants.  It's only accomplishment, in being banned, is that it makes you, the Beekeeper, and Aimless more comfortable.

We already have a CoC to deal with racial issues.  If Derek needed to be locked, it should have been based on the message of his post.  Not the words used to deliver it, unless by thier very nature they are racist.  The "T-word" by itself is not racist.  It is occupational slang that has evolved into the vernacular of AR15.com.  
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 12:54:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 12:55:50 PM EDT by 89grand]
Ed I wrote a long post describing why I said what I said, but then decided not to post it because it might have pissed people off again. I don't think I feel like writting it all over again right now, but if I get motivated enough I'll re-write it, not to be an ass, but to explain why I said what I said.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 1:02:05 PM EDT
I'm gonna miss a lot of you guys!  
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 1:06:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 1:10:46 PM EDT by ASUsax]

Originally Posted By markm:
I'm sensing a great disturbance in the w00t!




As if millions of voices suddenly cried out - and then were silenced?  
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 1:07:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2005 1:09:38 PM EDT by ASUsax]

Originally Posted By markm:
I'm gonna miss a lot of you guys!  



Actually, I think if Ed was going to zap them, he would have by now.

ETA: This seems to be the type of conversation that the 'words' have less meaning than the percieved meaning of them.  Heck, the 'dreaded T-word' (which I shall not utter here) had been used with no repurcussions...
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 1:23:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
I'm gonna miss a lot of you guys!  



Where are you going?
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 1:29:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ASUsax:


ETA: This seems to be the type of conversation that the 'words' have less meaning than the percieved meaning of them.  Heck, the 'dreaded T-word' (which I shall not utter here) had been used with no repurcussions...



Exactly.  

The word in question has/had been used quite often in the past.  However, once it was used in a post that someone felt was basically a racial rant, it suddenly became unacceptable.  It's use prior was never a concern, or raised an alarm.  Now, it is no longer the message that is the problem, but the words used to deliver the message.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 1:35:20 PM EDT
What's funny is the "T-word" was probably orginally a PC way to describe illegal aliens.

It went from PC to evil almost over night.
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 1:37:03 PM EDT
Congratulations............

Just like Bill Clinton put more AWs in the hands of Americans,  Ar15.com busybody staff has placed a word they hate in the vocabulary of more folks than would have otherwise known it.

SCREW ILLEGAL ALIENS AND ALL WHO LOVE THEM
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 1:43:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2005 1:50:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Biggame223:

SCREW ILLEGAL ALIENS AND ALL WHO LOVE THEM



I would advise against screwing illegal aliens. The results of that will be American citizens.
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