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Posted: 9/13/2004 8:06:46 AM EST
So how many of you fellow Joisey guys are as pissed off as I am that the sunsetting of the AWB does absolutley nothing for us?? I'm already tired of looking at fellow AR15 members showing off their folders and attached bayonets! Danm I hate this state!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:48:11 AM EST
Same with NY....
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 10:21:36 AM EST
Same here nothing to be happy about here, but I am glad for those who could. What pisses me off more than anything is not being able to by C-Mags. I doesn't make sense if I can own 20 or 30 rounders why the F&^K can't I buy a C-Mag that is made now.
I can't wait to move out of here. I told my wife PA is looking better and better. Fixing the house up a little to get ready to Sell.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 1:01:18 PM EST
I'll put on the flame suit:

"What have YOU DONE to change the climate in your state?"

WAIT!!!!

Let me put my hood on first.........

O.K.
Go ahead.

RW3
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 1:02:35 PM EST
There are pre94 manufactured Cmags out there....

I here you, I'm looking at land in VT again...
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 2:20:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By FRSHOOTER:
So how many of you fellow Joisey guys are as pissed off as I am that the sunsetting of the AWB does absolutley nothing for us?? I'm already tired of looking at fellow AR15 members showing off their folders and attached bayonets! Danm I hate this state!!!!!



Get used to it or swim across the Delaware and find some Pa. shootin' buddies.New Jersey will not change for now.We need to plant lots of pro-gun GOP seeds in this state.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 2:34:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 2:34:39 PM EST by FMJunkie]
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 2:39:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 2:39:58 PM EST by MAP]

Originally Posted By RAYWOODROW3RD:
I'll put on the flame suit:

"What have YOU DONE to change the climate in your state?"

WAIT!!!!

Let me put my hood on first.........

O.K.
Go ahead.

RW3



I vote, I get my entire family to vote, I encourge my friends to vote, I write to my reps and I donate to the correct organizations and candidates.

Mike

Perfect way to expend post #500!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 3:24:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 3:27:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 3:37:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By FMJunkie:

Originally Posted By Bobby_the_Hun:
We need to plant lots of pro-gun GOP seeds in this state.




I humbly accept your nomination to this post. I will take one for the team and perform this solemn duty on all our behalfs. The line starts to the left, so gets our Jersey girls in line!



Link Posted: 9/13/2004 3:39:14 PM EST
I feel your pain too,
However
Join the NRA and hopefully we can get more support to get rid of the dumb
NJ soccer mom laws regarding rifles
jeez who said a nice 10/22 with a good shooter cant to the same as the other
sniping idiots out there...its not the weapon that does the damage. well depending on what it is
but its the person who pulls that trigger...
Im lealous of my AZ PA and FLA buddies who have CCW's and supppressed full autos
and TEC9s not that I like that weapon much but hell they go out to the desert and go crazy
but thats just too dam far from the beach for me
PA does look good though
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 3:42:50 PM EST
Wow, Well said FMJunkie.You never cease to amaze me
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 5:30:57 PM EST

Well put FMJ, as always.

Speaking from personal experience I can say that I could not have picked a better bunch of guys to help me in introducing our great sport(obsession), to my wife at the last Blast.

She had a great time, and commented on what a nice bunch of guys you all were. especially 555R for letting her shoot your Barrett. I already knew that, which is why I decided to bring her with me to that particular shoot.

And I am proud to say that she will be coming with me again for the next one in OCT, and she'll be camping with us too.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:00:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By FMJunkie:

Originally Posted By RAYWOODROW3RD:
I'll put on the flame suit:

"What have YOU DONE to change the climate in your state?"

WAIT!!!!

Let me put my hood on first.........

O.K.
Go ahead.

RW3



OK, on a more serious note...

No need for the flame suit, you are absolutely correct. I choke on the apathy that hangs over this state every day. That so many people are focused so narrowly on the patch of ground 6 inches in front of them is, perhaps, enough all by itself to make you want to give up and leave.

That said, I try. I've held 9 outings over the past 2 years now. Whether I'm making a difference or not isn't for me to say. Frankly, it doesn't really matter to me if my efforts are ultimately for naught for I have had the pleasure of meeting some truly fine individuals along the way.

I've seen as many as 25 people, perhaps the most persecuted and fearful types of shooters in this state, come out and stand proud together. I have even had the pleasure of seeing three of them come 400 miles down to VA for a shoot this past weekend.

Hell, most of them even took part in the stripped lower group buy I just ran, resulting in 40-ish new evil black rifles in this state. Perhaps its not political, but its something.

Each and every first-timer that has come to a BLAST, and there have been a few, has walked away having had a good time. (at least, so I've been told) Each one of these first-timers now has a positive experience to associate with an 'assault rifle' and the shooting sports. Each one of these first-timers is now, hopefully, another person who might say, "Hey, you've got it wrong. Those rifles are not evil and those people that shoot them are not bad people." Again, perhaps its not an impactful action but its something.

The fact that all of these folks, both newbies and 'veterans', are more active participants in the shooting sports, even if only once every other month, is enough for me to never, EVER, give up on organizing our shoots.

Like I said, whether it makes a difference is not for me to say, but I try...

Ray, I respect what you are trying to do with NJCSD. I really do. So don't take this for anything other than a friendly challenge.

I am going to lay the gauntlet down for you - how many of your members can you get to the next NJ BLAST? I know several of the crew here registered on the NJCSD forums a while back and made the effort to get to know your group. I also know that they were met with a slightly cold shoulder, even if it was indirect, by those members of your organization that seemed to be a little narrowly focused on the issue of gun rights.

While I realize this was not nor is your opinion, it did turn some folks away. I'd like to use this opportunity to change that. I'd like to reiterate my invitation to you to join us for one of our shoots. The next one, if all goes well, will be the 10th shoot, 3rd BBQ and 2nd camping trip!

We can sit here and ask each other "what you've done" all day. I'd rather get all of you together on the same firing line to fling some hot brass together and forge some new friendships...




This deserves a
+1
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:52:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 5:57:34 PM EST by RAYWOODROW3RD]
M1-Matt,
It's funny you should say that we should get together. Ask Bobby_the_Hun what I contactd him about a day or so ago. He can fill you in.

I too have been holding shoots for "thefiringline.com" and then for "thehighroad.org" trying to get shooters in New Jersey together for the past 3 years. I have access to a private range / club and can do that. I have a cohort that would set up shoots in PA and the group would switch to the opposite range about every 4 months.

When NJCSD came into play, I decided to turn the shoots into fundraisers to support our overall cause in this state, firearms rights. I also know where your coming from because I have found that the fellow shooters I have met ARE the nicest people you could ever meet. I have introduced many people to the shooting arena and have made lasting friendships.

Now don't take offense to this guys but:

As for the cold shoulder, if whomever's skin is so thin that they can't deal with others, they should hang it up now. The NJCSD will become what YOU want it to become. It is small enough that change can always happen. Everybody on every gun board that is from NJ bitches and complains about the NRA not doing this or that or the ANJRPC not doing that. Here is the chance, THE PRIME OPPORTUNITY to change all of that. Only one of you guys showed up for the rally in Trenton. What's up with that? It didn't cost you anything but time to show up. That rally by the way was all about "ASSAULT WEAPONS" not pistols or shotguns. A total of 60 people showed up which was the most to EVER show up at a gun rights rally in New Jersey.

Guys,
You have to physically participate in the process to get things done. Especially in our anti state. Joining the NRA or NJCSD is just the first step. Shoots are great BUT that alone will not change things in this state. Nobody or no organization is perfect. NJCSD started from NOTHING to what it is today, under 2 years later, after the passage of that stupid smart gun bill.
Don't you guys on AR-15 see that you could be the driving force for the NJCSD? If 20 or 30 of you came together you could drive the policy of the org! We only have 80+ members!

Tell you what,
I will post on the board your Ar -15.com shoot and invitation to all of the NJCSD members (privately PM'ing all the members also) on the main page and in the discussion board area when you come up with a date and will do my best to get a good crew together and show up at your shoot.

But.....

I too will lay the gauntlet down for you - How many AR-15.com people can you get to come to the NJCSD Shootout on October 30th? Help support a group that just supported you in Trenton.

I believe I can get more people to show up at your shoot than you can mine. A little friendly competition?

What do you say? Deal?

RW3
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 6:14:10 PM EST
We're all in this boat together, whether we realize it or not. In the long run, NJ may very well loose the RKBA as we know it. In that case many of us will leave. The important thing is that the next generations have somewhere left to go. And alot of us do our small part to counter the mis-information spewed forth to the people.

Everyone's welcome at the Blasts. Where is the NJCSD shoot & can I bring my (black) rifle?
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:57:11 PM EST
you know
I may be ranting but...
hmmm I read that article stating mcgeevy's thoughts on assault weapons are made for one purpose
and thats to kill...
hmmm we should ban cars and trucks...car bombs kill
airplanes since they can kill...what else have we
kitchen knives meat cleavers as they can kill
oh yeah flintlocks can kill
a dart can kill
poison arrow frogs can kill
a flying piece of wood can kill
pens and pencils and even razors
wow maybe people should be banned in NJ
hell weather kills
lets ban hurricanes and lightning storms
and rip tides, the beach kills
man its not the item that kills
its the fool behind the trigger dammit

i give up!!!
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 7:51:25 AM EST

Only one of you guys showed up for the rally in Trenton. What's up with that? It didn't cost you anything but time to show up. That rally by the way was all about "ASSAULT WEAPONS" not pistols or shotguns. A total of 60 people showed up which was the most to EVER show up at a gun rights rally in New Jersey.


What's up with that is that it is a patently untrue statement. I was there at the rally, and also donated to the 'ban can' and signed the petition for adding the libertarian candidate to the primary vote. I know of two other ARFCOM members who were there......I stood and talked with them for a good while after the rally dispersed. I'm not going to say it wasn't an outstanding showing for AR15.com, but it's a start. Then again, it's not bad considering I'm a joined member of the NJCSD forum and I got more info from posts on ARFCOM's NJ board, from an ARFCOM member, regarding the specifics of the rally than I ever did from NJCSD. There were a lot of posts on the threads in NJCSD, but no concrete place where one could find all the particulars w/regards to time, location, specific directions, etc.

I'm trying hard to be objective and detached, but that part of your post really does burn me. I've got no beef with the rest of it (I myself have never noticed any cold shoulder for the few NJCSD events I've been to, even when wearing AR15.com apparel). However, if you're going to call into question our level of commitment, and by reference to that MY commitment to the cause, then perhaps when you launch from the bully pullpit you ought to make sure you've got all the facts. You want to beat on me (being a member of ARFCOM) for what I've done wrong, or not done that should have been, thats fine. But I do not appreciate being denigrated, nor desire to see my fellow members denigrated, based on the erroneous facts of others. Guess what...some people here (more it seems than you knew) stood up and answered the call.

I'm guessing this is close to what was being referred to as 'the cold shoulder'. I understand the technique/tactic, and have seen it's effectiveness in the past.....however some people (myself included) tend not to appreciate it. You want to continue with the negative reinforcement/bully pulpit, continue to frame us as part of the problem, go ahead. That's your right. I've got no beef with that in general. But hey, I've apparently got a thin skin, so I guess I'll just hang it up now...
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 7:57:48 AM EST
There is alway's the option to move.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 11:49:44 AM EST
zbrane,
The answer is yes. Bobby_the_hun and I will be making up a course of fire for the black rifles to shoot during the October 30th shootout.

Hard-case:

My Quote:
"Only one of you guys showed up for the rally in Trenton. What's up with that?"

I only knew Booby_the_hun was from AR-15.com because he has offered to get more active in the NJCSD. For those others that showed up, Thanks. If you don't make your presence known, how do we know?

Quote:
".....and by reference to that MY commitment to the cause....."

hard-case,
The people that do show up and support the 2nd Amendment in this state, you know who you are, this message was not directed towards you. Here goes that thin skin thing again!


hard-case,
You have corrected my statement on AR-15 participation at the rally and I am man enough to say I was wrong.

Quote:
"Then again, it's not bad considering I'm a joined member of the NJCSD forum and I got more info from posts on ARFCOM's NJ board, from an ARFCOM member, regarding the specifics of the rally than I ever did from NJCSD."

Hard-case,
Does that mean your volunteering to step forward and become our “ministry of information?”

Was that ARFCOM member Bobby_the_hun or I?

As for notification about the rally, turn on your administrative button so that you can be PM'ed by the board. That is how last minute and other info is sent out to our members. You should have received a few of these types of messages this week. If you did not, you did not select that option in your profile or turned it off. Turn it back on.

"The key to success in any battle is effective communications!"

Guys,
I'm just stating the obvious. Here is our chance to have a real impact on our situation dealing with the 2nd Amendment and this state of ours. It is almost like all the bitchers and complainers in New Jersey are circling around NJCSD like vultures waiting for it to expire so they can bitch some more about another failed attempt to right the wrongs of New Jersey gun owners. Everything takes time. Step up and make it the organization you wish it to be. Don't sit on the sidelines because it is too late in the game for that.

In closing,
We have key New Jersey 2nd Amendment types that are taking notice of the NJCSD and joining us. NOW is the time to pull ourselves together as one and focus on our strength. We have a board to communicate ideas on and to get our message out to the masses. The sky is the limit.

Don't look at NJSCD's faults every group has them. Look at what this could and will become! It took Virginia 10 YEARS to get CCW. It is not going to happen overnight in New Jersey and repealing of the assault weapons ban in this state will take even longer. My hand goes out to my fellow ARFCOM members. We can make this a reality.

Ray Woodrow 3rd
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 12:34:45 PM EST
Guys, let me jump in here to address some issues and misperceptions.

Ray and I have been smashing our heads against the wall for over a year and a half, because we know the only way things will change is if WE change it. And by "WE", we really mean "us" - as in: ALL OF US. Nobody ever changed a law or overturned tyrrany by staying home. Fredrick Douglass once said "Power concedes nothing without a demand."

The "alphabet soup" of "gun rights" groups in this state have done little to nothing to aggressively change the law. In fact, those in-the-know, are aware that certain groups have actually CAUSED some of the legislation we despise. How? The reason we get more anti-gun legislation is that rather than going on the offensive and digging our heels in to say "NO" and go down with the ship, our "gun rights" groups capitulate and concede by seeking "exceptions" for only certain segments of our community, and throw the rest of us under the bus. That encourages yet more transgression of our rights, when a legislator knows that they can always throw a little bone to keep us gun nuts quiet, and they can always close the "sport shooting loophole" later. It's more or less like negotiating with terrorists. Even if you "win", you lose.

So, is it any wonder why the sporting clays guys don't give a crap for the black rifle guys? Is it any wonder why the black rifle guys don't give a crap about smart gun laws? Is it any wonder why the hunters don't give a crap for any of us other gun owners?

The NJCSD is a GUN RIGHTS GROUP. That's what we do. The anti-gun lobby has gotten where they are by spending lots of money over many years to increment our rights away. It would be illogical to presume that it would require anything less than that, to win them back. We have an entirely unique, market-driven strategy that we have absolute confidence will be successful. We know that this is a MARKETING and ADVERTISING issue, to overcome media programming that has been launched against us by a liberal machine that has a political agenda.

Therefore, we do things to generate funds to implement our programs. For instance, when was the last time you heard about a gun rights group:
* Producing the first-ever RKBA related Cable TV program?
* Preparing for bulletin board ads on the NJ highways?
* Holding a gun rights rally on the Trenton Capital Dome steps?
* Creating content for magazine advertising?
* Creating ads for pre-movie slide shows in theatres?
* Coordinating group purchases of sporting goods or firearms related accessories?
* Holding fundraising bus trips to the NRA firearms museum, or S&W factory tour?

Well, I could go on, but you get the idea. I hope I've illustrated just the merest tip of the iceberg so you can get a sense that we know what it takes to WIN, and we have the organizational configuration, infrastructure, creativity, and determination to get there.

FMJunkie: you said:

I know several of the crew here registered on the NJCSD forums a while back and made the effort to get to know your group. I also know that they were met with a slightly cold shoulder, even if it was indirect, by those members of your organization that seemed to be a little narrowly focused on the issue of gun rights.
Two comments. First, I call "Bullshit!". We're a GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION. That's what we do. If just being a shooting club were enough to get laws changed, then Central Jersey, and/or the ANJRPC would have gotten it done it already. Second, "cold shoulder" my ass. Anyone who knows me or Ray, knows we will ALWAYS spend as much time as necessary to talk your ears off. If your friends felt any sort of "cold shoulder", it's because they didn't figure out that it's equally their responsibility to make an effort to introduce themselves and become involved. Ray and I have been at EVERY meeting and shoot - simply because if we don't do it, nobody will. There's NOBODY that has ever been ignored by us that put any effort into it! What we notice more than anything else is that it's usually the guys that bellyache the most about things not changing, that do the least to change it. Call it "armchair quarterbacking" if you will. Yes, shooting activities are nice, and are good for raising awareness and commiserating about the problem. But we need to go from awareness to action. What we find is that most gun owners get together, shoot for a while, and after they feel good, go home and do nothing. That has to change, and most of all, we need to change OURSELVES before we can change anyone else!!!

hard-case you said:

I was there at the rally, and also donated to the 'ban can' and signed the petition for adding the libertarian candidate to the primary vote. I know of two other ARFCOM members who were there......
Dude, relax. One... three... let's not argue over the difference of two heads. What we needed were THREE HUNDRED. The point Ray was making is that for all of us who bellyache about losing our gun rights, and the estimated HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of NJ gun owners, only 60 got to the rally. HOW MUCH EASIER OR CONVENIENT COULD IT HAVE BEEN???? Two hundred years ago, men died, froze, starved, left their families in need... to earn their freedom. Nowadays, it's too much to ask a fellow gun owners to submit for a personal or vacation day and drive 90 miles. It was a total of a couple of hours on a FRIDAY afternoon, which means everyone could have gone to the shore for that weekend. It's not like we asked anyone to buy an airline ticket for hundreds of dollars and fly to Washington. If we can't get people to endure a little inconvenience to sacrifice personal time and drive a maximum of 1.5 hours to Trenton, then the message isn't getting across. We're not saying we're ungrateful for your time... quite the contrary! We're saying that we need your help to get other people involved and kick them in the ass so that THEY can get other people involved, too! If we had 300+++ gun owners clogging the streets of Trenton, that would have been a PR event that would hit like a nuclear bomb, and struck healthy regard for us as a VOTING BLOC in the minds of a scheming, conniving legislator who wants to keep his "pay for play" franchise going.

What happens here in New Jersey affects all you guys out there. Gun control legislation is like a CANCER. It must be treated at the source, or it will spread. That's the thing the NRA doesn't understand, and that we're working to correct.

Those of us who live here "get it". The issue is getting you to help us help you. The rights you save will definitely be your own!!!

Link Posted: 9/15/2004 1:29:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 1:36:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2004 1:48:00 PM EST by Rovert]
We didn't take it 'defensively' at all, to the degree that you made it clear that you had no intent at all to be "offensive". I recognize that you were just reiterating something that was communicated to you.

But it was equally obvious that a clarification of the NJCSD's mission was important, because your friends showed up for one thing, and got another. Clearly, there was a misunderstanding. I just took the opportunity to remind us of how important it is for ALL gun owners in the state to know we're here, and we need to all row the boat in the same direction.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 1:44:15 PM EST
Quote:
FMjunkie

"If something I said offended you, I AM SORRY. It was not my intent.."

You did not offend Rovert or myself. None of you guys have. We all just need to pull together. If we can get the boat rollong in the right direction it would truly be an awsome sight.

We can do it......We will do it.......Together.

(I would have been at the last "blast" but the wife wanted to go to Massachucetts for the weekend)

I have to pick my battles if any of you married guys know what I mean! ;)

I will check my IM.

RW3
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 2:00:10 PM EST

What have YOU DONE to change the climate in your state?"




RAYWOODROW3RD.....OK I have written letters to my Senators, Congress called up Albany supported the NRA, made donations to various parties and screamed at the top of my lungs.

What else can I do? I don't have the money to run in any election and with my Background you really think I would win? What is there to do I find the people in the states that don't have to worry about this problem YET say the same thing.

Now lets look at what happened in Cali today.... 50cal are banned......I see an erosion of gun by gun and state by state even though that state thinks they will be ok.

Sure the AWB is dead let us see what will go into it's place. Now it is a free for all. The Anti Gunners are smart. You think they will allow COSMETICS get in the way the next time. They will go for not only that which the manufacture was able to sneak past, but also any type of CALIBER as well.
You win the battle but the war still rages and trust me they will not be fooled again.

We in NY and NJ along with some other places are Powerless against these A-Holes. There is no one to vote for and don't think that BUSH is really your friend. He is the biggest A-Hole of them all IMHO. Also what troubles me is Kerry is a Bigger one so who is left.

AWB=Anti Gun Ban in the future except maybe single shot 22 rifles. They want to ban water pistols and Super Soakers do you really think your safe because you can have a Bayo-Lug Collapsible Stock and Flash Hider?
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 4:49:55 PM EST
I'm confident that I can organize a march if anyone's not busy next Spring.
It'll need a catchy name, though.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 5:23:58 PM EST
I know a catchy one!

"We are coming for you!....Yes YOU!"

Link Posted: 9/16/2004 9:46:14 AM EST
What we need to do is get all those states with this problem together and have a march. From one State Capital to the other.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 5:48:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By RAYWOODROW3RD:
I only knew Booby_the_hun was from AR-15.com because he has offered to get more active in the NJCSD. For those others that showed up, Thanks. If you don't make your presence known, how do we know?



That is something I definitely feel needs to be worked on.....I'll touch upon it a tad more below.


The people that do show up and support the 2nd Amendment in this state, you know who you are, this message was not directed towards you. Here goes that thin skin thing again!


Yes, it was thin skinned, I will admit. Part of it was my feeling, but a small part was iin essence to prove a point. The problem is that gun owners, for the most part (at least according to my experience), tend to fall into one of the two extremes. Either they are very thin skinned and tend to take umbrage rather quickly, or they are thick skinned and cannot be reached. It is not as difficult to solicit the support of the former, but it has to be done with due consideration. The message that you sent, especially picked up by a member who for some reason hasn't hit any of the earlier threads with NJCSD info, does not exactly represent you aims in the most positive of light, and I'd be willing to wager I wasn't the only one to get hackles rising from it. I'm not going to sit here and say that gun owners don't deserve a little healthy chastisement....but from a PR perspective the honey always tends to work better.


hard-case,
You have corrected my statement on AR-15 participation at the rally and I am man enough to say I was wrong.



It is very much appreciated, and I'm glad to see such a display of integrity. Even over what I'll admit was a rather thin point.....


Hard-case,
Does that mean your volunteering to step forward and become our “ministry of information?”





Hehe...just kidding. If there is no one else in the position, and it needs to be done, then yes, I will step forward and become your "Ministry of Information".


Was that ARFCOM member Bobby_the_hun or I?


I do not believe so. I'm still having trouble connecting board names to R/L people. I believe one of the other members there was Lion_Dog.


As for notification about the rally, turn on your administrative button so that you can be PM'ed by the board. That is how last minute and other info is sent out to our members. You should have received a few of these types of messages this week. If you did not, you did not select that option in your profile or turned it off. Turn it back on.

"The key to success in any battle is effective communications!"



This very well might have been an issue......it was my impression that 'send me updates sent by the board administrator' covered sending out a message via email. I didn't notice any such setting under the options menu for the PM area.

That is exactly right. There needs to be some sort of communications framework developed....something beyond PM messages. Most likely two-tiered......one facet to manage contact/service based information of existing members and provide them with updated information on group related issues, and another to work on developing avenues of communication with those not of the group (firearms forums on the net, gun clubs, etc).

Which in a way hits to the heart of the point I was trying to make. Perception is reality, and organizations often live or die by the way they are presented and perceived by the public at large. It is especially true of the perception inside the group. Why do we have a lot of people on here who don't join the NRA? What it comes down to I believe is this (and it's part of the reason I commit the cardinal sin of not being a member).....a person will be VERY much less likely to become a member of a group if they have to spend as much time or more fighting the members INSIDE the group than they do fighting those outside to acheive the goals of the group.


Originally Posted By Rovert:
Dude, relax. One... three... let's not argue over the difference of two heads. What we needed were THREE HUNDRED. The point Ray was making is that for all of us who bellyache about losing our gun rights, and the estimated HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of NJ gun owners, only 60 got to the rally. HOW MUCH EASIER OR CONVENIENT COULD IT HAVE BEEN????



The point wasn't exaclty over a specific nunber. The point, or what I intended to be part of the point, was in the delivery of the message. Read the message over again, and imagine that that message is someone's first encounter with NJCSD. Then, more importantly, imagine someone whose first expereince was at the rally, because of the post from this board, who then reads that message here. It would come across as rather disrespectful to them, and in addition it did not present the organization, or the results of the rally, in a positive light. I said it earlier, and I'll reiterate.....'perception is reality'. Believe me....I understand, and in some ways maintain the same passion for this struggle before us. However, projecting that passion in such a way needs to be done very judiciously, as it can have adverse effects. Especially when that projection can be seen as representative of an entire organiztion. The simplest way I can say it is this......I'm a supporter, and it really did bother me. I also don't believe I'm the only one who felt that. Is presenting that image worth the potential alienation? I don't believe it is.


Two hundred years ago, men died, froze, starved, left their families in need... to earn their freedom. Nowadays, it's too much to ask a fellow gun owners to submit for a personal or vacation day and drive 90 miles. It was a total of a couple of hours on a FRIDAY afternoon, which means everyone could have gone to the shore for that weekend. It's not like we asked anyone to buy an airline ticket for hundreds of dollars and fly to Washington. If we can't get people to endure a little inconvenience to sacrifice personal time and drive a maximum of 1.5 hours to Trenton, then the message isn't getting across. We're not saying we're ungrateful for your time... quite the contrary! We're saying that we need your help to get other people involved and kick them in the ass so that THEY can get other people involved, too!


You know.....following some of the post-rally opinions, I sometimes feel like I'm one of the very few who came away with a positive view. While I'll openly admit I cannot argue with the sentiments you espouse here......when you consider all the particulars of this state....the level of distaste for firearms, the liberal bent of much of the populace and politicians, the general apathy of gun owners, and the level of communication among the firearms community, getting 60 people to attend the first rally at the State House was a fine acheivement. It just needs to be built on. We didn't win the war in a few days, or with only a few battles, and we won't win this war either. I would ask this.....when was the last time 60 gun owners....or even 30 gun owners, stood on the steps of the state house and stood up for their rights?

Perhaps you don't intend to say it, but when you present what happened in a negative light, or focus on the negative points....a message does come across. It may not be the one you want to have come across, but it still does. And I think it's important to be aware of that.

The thing is this.....kicking someone in the ass, while it can be motivating, isn't the best way to go about things. Myself....I'd prefer walking into a gun club or shooting society with a nice newsletter that covers the rally, with some pictures (especially a show of the steps adorned with some of Oleg's work!), exceprts from the speeches, etc, and trying to talk to them about what the group is trying to do....or setting up a web page to do the same thing and presenting it on the forums...that would go in my mind a lot further than verbal thunder and ass plantings! Like I believe Ray said.....this is going to take a long time. Little steps. 60 is a very good step.....instead of unleashing the dogs of vitriol, you let the accomplishment speak to yourself. Keep reminding people of whats going on, what is being done, and when you start to show that presence and persistence, you'll start seeing the dividents....


If we had 300+++ gun owners clogging the streets of Trenton, that would have been a PR event that would hit like a nuclear bomb, and struck healthy regard for us as a VOTING BLOC in the minds of a scheming, conniving legislator who wants to keep his "pay for play" franchise going.



I wonder how the Times or the Star Ledger would report that kind of rally?
"Angry gun nuts lay seige to Trenton!"

Yes, it would have been an extreme shock. But it didn't happen. That doesn't mean it can't happen, or it won't happen. So instead of looking at this like some sort of let down, let's see it for the small victory it is and instead use it as the stepping stone to something larger.

Yargh....probably my longest post to date....
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 5:21:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 7:07:11 AM EST by Rovert]
hard-case, your point is well taken, but for one thing. Ray and I have the benefit of experience running this organization together over the past (almost) 2 years, to know that sugar-coating things doesn't work, because when it's "soft peddled", gun owners don't realize how really severe it is, and how important it is to be there - how desperately we need their help. The sense of urgency is lost in the subtlety of trying not to hurt anyone's feelings.

We're not saying that 60 is bad, we're saying that 600 would be better.

I know the "vogue" in this new "Politically Correct" era is to build "self esteem" and congratulate people for what little they do. We take the "old fashioned" approach: LEAD BY EXAMPLE.

Gun owners in this state must be made to realize what is necessary to accomplish the goal. Complacency is our own worst enemy. By illustrating through stark contrast and candid commentary our shortcomings, perhaps our community will figure out that nothing is going to change by sitting at home, and that it will take every one of us to get it to happen. So, if I give it to everyone hard and dirty, it's because I hold us to a higher standard that I know we're capable of meeting.

Historically, the problem is that we've been "glad handed" by people who lull us into that state of complacency by causing us to feel that whatever we do - no matter how little - is fine. And that's the expectation that's met when our community rises to the standard of "a little is good enough".

But, "good enough" isn't enough to win, and THAT'S why people don't show up to do things. Because nobody is telling the harsh truth that lack of commitment and involvement is why we're at the point we are. We have to do it better, harder, faster, louder and more effectively than our opposition, and FAR better than we've done up to now. We've been told by "gun rights" organizations that worry about their next donation that it's alright to just give money, but not give effort, and they'll "take care of it". Riiiiight. They did a great job, didn't they???

The reality is that we CAN win this thing, but not without everyone's help.

At the end of the day, the last item to ponder is this. While you observed that there might be a potential "negative" message that could come across to a gun owner, we need to pause for a moment to consider how the lack of commitment and participation by others effects those who knocked themselves out trying to do something. Negative message? What of it? With gun owners, begging and pleading hasn't worked, so we have to whack 'em between the eyes to get them to see the problem. Sometimes you need to swat a fly with a sledgehammer.
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