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Posted: 2/12/2006 5:55:30 AM EDT
Is anyone doing the Performance Carbine Class in April at South River? Just trying to see what the class is like and what the required experience level is.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:40:44 AM EDT
I will be there.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 2:21:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 4:04:29 PM EDT
Can someone give me a quick breakdown of the reccomended equip/gear for the class (minus the guns)

Also - I emailed the guy from VSP about registration and have not heard back, Anyone have another way to get in touch with him?

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 4:55:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:02:34 PM EDT
Thanks for the info. I have an ACOG on my AR now and love it. I am thinking about adding either an EOTech or Aimpoint for quicker target acquisition.

I am wondering if I would be better off with an EOTech or ACOG in the class?

As far as ammo goes - I shoot Georgia Arms factory loads and have had good luck with them. I recently got a few of the HK hi-reliabilty mags and love them - they are fairly expensive - so I have a decent supply of the D&R USGI teflon with the orange magpuls

Link Posted: 2/13/2006 3:42:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:32:46 AM EDT
Thanks BookHound - The main reason for the course is to get a better "tactical" perspective to rifle shooting. I have been shooting action pistol for several years and am relatively new to the black rifle community.

Although I have been shooting rifles for years, I am new to the tactical carbine.

Link Posted: 2/13/2006 2:42:04 PM EDT
My take on rifle classes is similar to Book's. Although if this is your first carbine class,I'd recommend the basics. Go minimal on your so called Tac gear if you're just a civilian getting familiar with the platform.Take the class with your ACOG if that is your primary setup weapon. I like the ACOG,Eotech and Aimpoint. ACOG's work well for CQB and you gain a good advantage on LR drills. Invest in a dump pouch(Maxpedition Rolly Polly) and one kydex belt mounted mag pouch for AR mags(Talon Tactical). The biggest test of gear will be your sling and the attachment methods.If you are going to change something or test for failure this is an important piece of kit that gets tested. I'll have several extras with me if you want to try a different setup. I think I have owned and tried them all. I prefer a Troy Single point or Boonie Packer 2P.If you don't have a backup rifle.....have spare parts like Book said. An extra bolt,carrier and extractor are a must in classes. Out of four carbine classes,there has been at least one person if not more who needed one or more of the above.Sighting systems seem to always go as well.Be prepared to finish the class with your BUIS if necessary. Make sure your rifle is zeroed. I zero at 75 yards but shoot at 10,25,50,75,and 100 to be familiar with POI/POA.Inside 25 yards is important to become familiar with line of bore/line of sight offset.Make sure important threads have LocTite on them. Make sure the carrier key bolts are LocTited and staked. Have at least 5 verified working mags. HK mags are worth the money IMO.More are better so that you're not loading all the time. Have a LULA or CMAG loader. Bring a good spray lube like CLP. AR's don't run well dry. Bore snake is invaluable kit. Definitley have plenty of water and high protein snacks close by. Wear comfortable shoes/boots. Kneepads are nice. The 5.11 inserts work well in the 5.11 pants.Quality electronic muffs are nice IMO. Good ammo is paramount. GA Arms works well. I have not had any problems in the last four classes that I took. Well over 6000 rounds. GTG IMO. Weapon mounted lights are cool but not necessary. Just have a good light. Sure fire M2 or M3 are good,but a G2 works equally as well. Depends on your budget. Hope some of this info helps. If anything else comes to mind I'll post it. Look forward to seeing you there.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:20:27 PM EDT
I didnt write this but it is exactly what I would have said if I had typed it.

-Use quality USA made ammo, such as Federal, Winchester, etc. Do not take surplus, Wolf, etc. to a class. One of the worst mistakes I see are shooters spending good money on training and then showing up with cheap ammo, and they have nothing but ammo related malfunctions the entire class. An example of this is we had 4 guys that were shooting "Olympic" brand ammo (made in Greece), and their guns were jamming every couple of rounds the entire class, this slowed things down for the rest of us.

-MASTER YOUR IRON SIGHTS FIRST. A lot of guys love optics, and in my personal opinion optics help most shooters. But before you go and buy an ACOG, Aimpoint, EO Tech, or any other optic, master your iron sights FIRST. Once you have mastered the iron sights then and only then consider moving up to optics.

-Use quality USGI magazines with the GREEN or new Magpul followers. Another thing that I do to my magazines is use the Wolff Gun springs 10%+ mag springs in my mags. If you have the time take the mags to the range and make sure they work well. Nothing worse then showing up to class with crappy mags and having your gun malfunction on a constant basis due to bad magazines.

-Learn to properly clean and maintain your gun properly. I always recommend the US Army or USMC M16A2 manual to new shooters, these manuals will show you how to properly maintain and clean your AR15. On the first day of class make sure you show up with a properly cleaned and lubed carbine. Everyday after class properly field strip, clean, and lube your carbine. In most Tactical Carbine Courses you will shoot approximately 500 per day, everyday. The guys that don't properly clean and lube their carbines will be easy to spot......Their guns usually go "TITS UP" the second day of class prior to lunch. A USGI cleaning kit has everything that you need in it to properly clean, maintain, and lube your gun.....and make sure to use the chamber brush.

-Buy a quality rifle / carbine and don't try to build one. In the classes that I have been to approximately 90%+ of the "built" guns have gone tit's up. Last year in a carbine course, the instructor took a poll. Of over 20 students, 12 or so had "built" rifles (all AR-15's) and of those 12 100% of them went tits up during the class. The rest of the guys had factory built guns and none of the factory built guns went tits up. That is not to say that I haven't seen a factory gun go tit's up, it just happens a lot less than with a gun that is built from parts from different manufacturers. Stick with the "Tier 1 manufacturers" ie. Colt, Bushmaster, and Rock River Arms as a general rule.....and make sure the gun has a chrome lined barrel.

-I always recommend having a gun that has 1,000 rounds through it prior to coming to class. If there are any problems (ie. loose gas key, etc) they will usually arise in the first 1,000 rounds. I have seen some guys show up to class with a brand new gun and put 1,000 rounds down range without a problem, and I have seen other brand new guns that have some teething problems the first day because they are brand new, but start settling down the second day. Along with this "break in" period, it also let's the shooter know what ammo and mags the gun does or doesn't like. If you shoot the first 1,000 rounds with Federal American Eagle .223 and 5 USGI mags with no problems, then take that same ammo and those same 5 magazines to the class.

-If you have access to a second AR, take it to the class. If carbine #1 goes tit's up, you've got a back up.

-If you are new to AR's get a SIMPLE carbine and shoot it in the class.....Many times I have seen shooters show up to a class with all kinds of crap hanging off of their guns and all those accessories give them nothing but problems. Start off with a simple carbine with iron sights, take the Tactical Carbine Course, learn how to operate your gun proficiently, then add accessories as you need them

-Make sure you have a good sling, I always recommend a 3 point sling to new shooters, and you will probably need a 3 point sling, because most likely you will be doing transition drills (transitioning from your carbine to your pistol)

-Remember keep it simple, take a good quality, factory made AR (and use the IRON SIGHTS), good quality USA made ammo, good quality USGI mags, a 3 point sling, a USGI cleaning kit, knee pads, plenty of water, and an open mind!!!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:47:36 AM EDT
Wow! I go away for a couple of days and this appears. Sorry for the delay, but it sounds like Bookhound, 00bullitt, and k9dpd, have given you some very good advice. I'm with Bookhound when it comes to equipment. I like to use training classes to give my gear a workout and find out what works and what doesn't. Having said that, I would not go out and purchase a bunch of new equipment for the class. If you have some gear already, I encourage you to bring it, but I would not go out and buy some new gear unless I already knew what I needed. Check out what everyone else is using and ask a lot of questions. You'll get a lot of good information and then you can pick out what seems like it would work for you. I'll get all of you some more information on the class later tonight.

GODAWGS, you have you're IM and Email disabled. I need you to IM me your email address.

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:21:03 AM EDT
In classes I like to use a simple chest rig. I wear a Hellcat MK1 witha triple pistol shingle attached to the PALS on the front. It is very comfortable. It has six internal mag pouches.It also has my hydration pouch attached to the rear. I have used LBV's with mag pouches in the past,TAC Vests and a CIRAS plate carrier with a good load out. Its all too much and not real practical. Although I really like my CIRAS I still resort to the Hellcat. Its a whole lot more civilian like if the zombies start to wander. I have an extra Blackhawk chest rig that is comfortable if you want to try it in the class. I also have an extra Rolly Polly and kydex mag pouch if you need to borrow one.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:46:38 AM EDT
Thanks - I have an Eagle TAC-V1-N Vest that I bought a while back. It seems to work well, although I have found it to be hot and not entirely comfortbale while lying down. It seems that the trend is going away from vests and more towards the molle type rigs. I will use the vest for the class and see how it works, it has plenty of mag storage and I have a hydrastorm in it as well.

I do need to get a good spare parts kit, including extractor for my Bushy. Any reccomendations about good spring and pin kits?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:11:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:55:19 PM EDT
I'll have to go with Book on the trigger pins. The first two classes I took I had trigger pins walk out on me. I've replaced all mine with KNS locking pins since then. Like said previously......you will find shortcomings with your kit. Nothing worse than going down in a class.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 3:00:11 PM EDT
Last class I went to I lent out: a buffer, an O ring, an extractor spring and insert and a trigger pin
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