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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/30/2005 10:17:11 AM EDT
I don't have a formal block of instruction yet.
I bought an 'extra' two ounce unit and an inert training unit.

The two ounce units advertise as being able to deliver 24 half second blasts.
In noob hands, I'm figuring on a dozen shots.

Anyone who is interested enough to donate a few bucks towards the supplies can participate.
I plan on taking an exposure and encourage others to join me.
Probably set up a simple course, where the spray victim has to run around a few barrels and then make a shoot/no-shoot decision. (With his finger and saying "click.")

It'll be a screaming-bloody-murder, painful, no-fun good time.



Suggestions welcome.
I figured it'd be interesting to see how the can acts as it empties, what sort of distance is realistic, just how incapacitating the spray is, ...... it's worth doing.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:44:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 10:46:16 AM EDT by FMD]
Does this mean that our order came in?

'Doh!

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=21&t=211371&page=1

Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:46:50 AM EDT
Suggestions: script a scenario for the inert training. Have the person being trained issue commands from defensive posture, then at appropriate time spray & move off the line of attack, disengage, and justify their actions to the "interviewing police officer" afterwards. BG wears goggles for the inert sessions. Helpful if the BG has actually been sprayed/observed spray before so they can react realistically.

Live scenario: rather than a shoot/no-shoot, I'd suggest a bag or someone in a redman suit. Much more likely to have to use hands-on force than shoot someone, especially if your first option employed was pepper spray. Have the person sprayed fight for 30 seconds or so to conquer their opponent. Then decontaminate.

Bring a change of clothes and be careful about direction of drainage when you're washing your hair later.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 12:28:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 1:28:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 1:29:04 PM EDT by Throttle-Junkie]
I don't have any type of decon.
Been told that the wipes will push the stuff into your pores, and are of little help.
Think it was 5-gun who said to just try not to touch it.
Also heard of folks putting their head under water, opening their eyes and looking around while under, in an attempt to flush some of the stuff off/out. ....... Didn't work.

My impression is that if your gonna bite the bullet, you have to ride it out.

Glenn wrote: "I'd suggest a bag or someone in a redman suit."
I don't understand at all, please explain.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 2:10:49 PM EDT
will there be soda pop there?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 2:28:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 2:34:22 PM EDT by BulletcatchR]
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 2:39:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 2:58:56 PM EDT by Drawcut]
I believe Glenn had said that his experience was that the decon 'wipes' worked best by gently 'blotting'. Wiping or rubbing would just push the pepper in deeper.

Interested in a training session, but I don't think I should try taking a shot of the real stuff. I've been having some kind of 'dry eyes' problem lately and the Docs haven't found anything that's helped yet. When I say 'dry eyes' it's more like one or both of my eyes will completely dry out and when I blink, it feels like an icepick being shoved into my brain. So far, the best I've been able to do is: keep hydrated, be careful of wind, use OTC eye drops and be VERY careful when waking up on the morning.

Still, interested as long as I can just practice with the spray. Probably the wife too.

ETA: Plus I get to see you all flail around blindly! I might be able to bring out a bag too. I have one of the 'Wave' bags that uses a plastic base filled with water instead of being hung from above. Would need a hose to refill the base, though.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:20:05 PM EDT
This is kinda OT but with your order did you get the stuff that was without the UV dye? I was poking around online and all referances i see to wisconsin says it has to be under 2oz and cannot contain UV dye.

Almost all the stuff i am seeing contains UV dye, so is it that big of a deal or would I be in deep trouble with dye?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:16:45 PM EDT
Couple of thoughts.

If you're going to practice, show yourself that you can fight through the spray. It's only pain. It won't cause you any damage. Function through it--prove to yourself that you can. If you teach yourself to give up when you're sprayed, well, you're likely to do it in real life. If you're going to suffer the discomfort, learn something important from it.

Regarding decon, I find water to be most effective and cheapest. Certainly comforting. I have had decent success with the Sudecon decontamination wipes. Don't rub--follow the package directions. Not as good as water, but much better than nothing. I've never experimented with the "air dry" method personally, but watching it work on the people I've sprayed, I'd say it wouldn't be my personal choice.

BulletcatchR interpreted my "bag and Redman" comment correctly. Take a hit and then go fight something. It's a confidence booster.

For information about OC and UV, read the "Legal FAQ" tacked on the top of this forum.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:42:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 3:54:14 AM EDT by Drawcut]

Originally Posted By glenn_r:
Couple of thoughts.

If you're going to practice, show yourself that you can fight through the spray. It's only pain. It won't cause you any damage. Function through it--prove to yourself that you can. If you teach yourself to give up when you're sprayed, well, you're likely to do it in real life. If you're going to suffer the discomfort, learn something important from it.


Regarding decon, I find water to be most effective and cheapest. Certainly comforting. I have had decent success with the Sudecon decontamination wipes. Don't rub--follow the package directions. Not as good as water, but much better than nothing. I've never experimented with the "air dry" method personally, but watching it work on the people I've sprayed, I'd say it wouldn't be my personal choice.

BulletcatchR interpreted my "bag and Redman" comment correctly. Take a hit and then go fight something. It's a confidence booster.

For information about OC and UV, read the "Legal FAQ" tacked on the top of this forum.



Edit: After thinking about this, I changed this response. Pepper Spray has been in use by LEOs long enough to have been proven to be an effective tool. But every tool has it's pluses, minuses and limitations. Important to remember that a highly motivated person can 'fight through' the pain of pepper spray. But even then, you'd have them at a disadvantage.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 5:50:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Drawcut:
Edit: After thinking about this, I changed this response. Pepper Spray has been in use by LEOs long enough to have been proven to be an effective tool. But every tool has it's pluses, minuses and limitations. Important to remember that a highly motivated person can 'fight through' the pain of pepper spray. But even then, you'd have them at a disadvantage.



I missed your unedited post, but I agree with everything you wrote here.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 1:33:41 PM EDT
I'm game. I do the CS chambers for fun, so why not this stuff.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:41:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterPX:
I'm game. I do the CS chambers for fun, so why not this stuff.



Cool, a fellow victim.

Drawcut's out on a medical.

FMD, what's your excuse? We can let Annie-O spray you.

Link Posted: 10/2/2005 5:27:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Throttle-Junkie:
FMD, what's your excuse? We can let Annie-O spray you.



...Just as long as you're holding me hostage, I'm up for it.



Right now I've got a tough schedule that I'm working with. Maybe at the next Alumni shoot (my next "free" weekend, AFAIK)?
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 5:31:37 PM EDT
Its all mind over matter. I'd do it just to see if how I would handle it if I were to ever be shot with it. So I am game. Yeah, it wont be fun, but its a good test for yourself.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:22:50 AM EDT
OH sounds like fun, but i've gotten a face full of pepper spray. so i'll pass.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:31:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:
OH sounds like fun, but i've gotten a face full of pepper spray. so i'll pass.



Yeah, that girl in the alley totally misunderstood your intentions.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 2:30:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Throttle-Junkie:

Originally Posted By photoman:
OH sounds like fun, but i've gotten a face full of pepper spray. so i'll pass.



Yeah, that girl in the alley totally misunderstood your intentions.





dpixel8: Mind over matter? You get to go first.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:32:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:

Originally Posted By Throttle-Junkie:

Originally Posted By photoman:
OH sounds like fun, but i've gotten a face full of pepper spray. so i'll pass.



Yeah, that girl in the alley totally misunderstood your intentions.





dpixel8: Mind over matter? You get to go first.



Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:46:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 12:46:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterPX:
I'm game. I do the CS chambers for fun, so why not this stuff.




The fox labs is worse. Still fun in a more painful package.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:34:37 PM EDT
There were no details in that newsclipping. Could have been sprayed at 12 inches into gawking mouth.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 5:20:12 AM EDT
Guys,

I get all over-excited every time I hear about training. Sorry about that, because after reflecting, I think BulletcatchR brings up an important point. Being pepper-sprayed is quite an experience. Some people don't tolerate that experience well, even if they know in theory what to expect. This isn't because of who they are, but because the experience is disorienting and wildly outside their prior experience. Adding scenario training on top of that is more complicated than it may sound. You need to add sufficient numbers of experienced safety personnel to ensure no one gets hurt, decontamination personnel to ensure no one leaves the training area while still decontaminated, an experienced trainer holding the bag who has experienced the attacks peppered individuals use, etc. It turns into quite a production to get it done while keeping everyone completely safe.

The scenario training I encouraged is a great idea, but only if you can get it under a trainer who is experienced in the use of pepper spray and scenario training. No one wants to suffer an injury, and no one wants to program incorrect responses. Both of these are risks if the training isn't conducted properly. I don't want to rain on the parade--especially since I think this kind of training is valuable--but doing it safely and appropriately is the top priority.

I would pull out the inert cans, though, and check out the range and spray patterns, so you can see how far they spray, etc., and encourage you to look for an experienced trainer in your area.
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