OK I have read the law. Even understand in Illinois and most states federal the OAL of a rifle or shotgun must be 26 inches. Here is the deal... There is a DSA FAL tactical carbine with a para folding stock. It was made this way from the factory and has not in any way been altered.

I know a FLL who has one for sale. If you measure a regular DSA carbine with 16 inch barrel from the muzzle to the end of receiver it is 26 inches. Now from what I can figure a tactical carbine is 1 inch shorter. SO the FAL with the stock folded should be 25 inches.

So I guess the question is how do you measure OAL legally. With the stock extended or folded if some LE decides to be a ass. Please if someone could point me to a reference I already have this one from the ATF look at firearm definition.

Illinois rules about 4 paragraphs down

I just don't trust Illinois cops. Does Illinois measure differently?

Thank You!

Should be with the stock extended.

Underfolder AK's aren't over 26" folded, IIRC, and they're legal.

WIZZO

Quoted: Should be with the stock extended. WIZZO

I dont believe so. Maybe Im wrong.

Quoted: Quoted: Should be with the stock extended. WIZZO I dont believe so. Maybe Im wrong.

Yeah, when measuring OAL, the shortest configuration is measured.  So a collapsible stock would be collapsed, and a folder would be folded.

If you're wrong, I'm right there with you.

Thanks guys

Looks like a 18" barrel is the way to go. Would hate to go to prison for a inch. Only if I could add 2 inches so easy.

Quoted: OK I have read the law. Even understand in Illinois and most states federal the OAL of a rifle or shotgun must be 26 inches. Here is the deal... There is a DSA FAL tactical carbine with a para folding stock. It was made this way from the factory and has not in any way been altered. I know a FLL who has one for sale. If you measure a regular DSA carbine with 16 inch barrel from the muzzle to the end of receiver it is 26 inches. Now from what I can figure a tactical carbine is 1 inch shorter. SO the FAL with the stock folded should be 25 inches. So I guess the question is how do you measure OAL legally. With the stock extended or folded if some LE decides to be a ass. Please if someone could point me to a reference I already have this one from the ATF look at firearm definition. Illinois rules about 4 paragraphs down I just don't trust Illinois cops. Does Illinois measure differently? Thank You!

You might want to re-think your blanket statement.

I happen to know the correct answer, but since you don't trust me, I won't be posting it.

Quoted: Quoted: I just don't trust Illinois cops. Does Illinois measure differently? Thank You! You might want to re-think your blanket statement. I happen to know the correct answer, but since you don't trust me, I won't be posting it.

I don't know who is being more mean here

WIZZO

EDIT: so who was right

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I just don't trust Illinois cops. Does Illinois measure differently? Thank You! You might want to re-think your blanket statement. I happen to know the correct answer, but since you don't trust me, I won't be posting it. I don't know who is being more mean here WIZZO EDIT: so who was right

Of course, the correct answer is.... I am the one who is right.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: OK I have read the law. Even understand in Illinois and most states federal the OAL of a rifle or shotgun must be 26 inches. Here is the deal... There is a DSA FAL tactical carbine with a para folding stock. It was made this way from the factory and has not in any way been altered. I know a FLL who has one for sale. If you measure a regular DSA carbine with 16 inch barrel from the muzzle to the end of receiver it is 26 inches. Now from what I can figure a tactical carbine is 1 inch shorter. SO the FAL with the stock folded should be 25 inches. So I guess the question is how do you measure OAL legally. With the stock extended or folded if some LE decides to be a ass. Please if someone could point me to a reference I already have this one from the ATF look at firearm definition. Illinois rules about 4 paragraphs down I just don't trust Illinois cops. Does Illinois measure differently? Thank You! You might want to re-think your blanket statement. I happen to know the correct answer, but since you don't trust me, I won't be posting it. Damn, seems a cop always shows up after you say/do something you shouldn't have.

Aint that the truth!!!!

There's good arguments on both sides of the fence on this issue. Case law from a California case, "People v. Rooney" decides on behalf of the 'shortest configuration' possible, not on behalf of the longest possible.

Never have seen any court cases setting a precedent of measuring the longest possible configuration as the method for measurement. Rumor has it that ATF technical services authored a memo back in the 1980's regarding the method of measuring rifles with collapsible or folding stocks that said that you measure with stock extended. Nobody has ever seen this rumored memo though.

Until someone produces it, fall back on what the courts have said. Shortest configuration.

(ii) any rifle having one or more barrels less       than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches

I think I have highlighted the key part. Meaning that IF you alter a legal weapon to be under 25". So a factory gun that has a 16" barrel, but is under 26" os ok.

Quoted: (ii) any rifle having one or more barrels less       than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches I think I have highlighted the key part. Meaning that IF you alter a legal weapon to be under 26". So a factory gun that has a 16" barrel, but is under 26" os ok.

Fixed that for you

From this federal law:
27CFR478.11

Comes these definitions:

Rifle:
A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Short-barreled rifle:
A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Short-barreled shotgun:
A shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length, and any weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

So if your RIFLE is configured to the point that it is now less than 26", it has become a SHORT BARRELED RIFLE and therefore subject to NFA rules.

Here's my problem.

1.)An underfolding AK is about 25" with the stock folded.

2.)DSA sells FAL pattern rifles with side folding stocks on them. I find it highly unlikely they would sell something that is illegal on purpose, and I'm sure they know the laws.

I don't know....I'm just a little confused right now.

WIZZO

Quoted: Here's my problem. An underfolding AK is about 25" with the stock folded. DSA sells FAL pattern rifles with side folding stocks on them. I find it highly unlikely they would sell something that is illegal on purpose, and I'm sure they know the laws. I don't know....I'm just a little confused right now. WIZZO

Is the underfolding AK one that someone "put together"?

what's the OAL on the folded DSA FAL?

I don't have shit that anyone put together I've seen underfolders at gunshows (a Vector underfolder comes to mind) that stop flush with the rear of the receiver. I measured my AK from the back of the receiver to the muzzle and it only came out to 25 1/32". About 25" on the nose. An underfolder does not add an inch to the rear of the rifle, and they would be the same barrel, so.......

And for the DSA, I was using etch11's measurements. DSA doesn't have any folded stock measurements on their site.

WIZZO

   As a suggestion,call DSA and ask them about the length and how they are measured.They manufacture these in IL,know the laws in IL,and can answer this. Also call the IL state police,they always seem helpful with questions. You bring up a good point on this. Everybody sells rifles in this configuration and doesn't give it any thought. Please post the results of your research.    

                                                        HTH, Mark454

npd233,

Of course you were not included in that statement. I thought that went without saying.

A Arsenal AK-47 SAS M-7 CLASSIC is 643 MM folded or 25.315 inches, Arsenal AK-47 SAS M-7 (No Ban)  is 639 MM folded or 25.15 inches. No NFA requirement to buy.

A DSA standard carbine, standard stock and lower with 16" barrel overall length is 37.5", 14.25 length of pull, sight radius 22".. From muzzle to end of receiver 26 inches. DSA advertises the Tactical carbine standard stock,, standard lower?? as 1 inch shorter OAL 36.5", length of pull 14.25, sight radius 19". The Para Congo(folding stock) 18" barrel is OAL of 39.7, length of pull 14.25", sight radius 22". The Para lower is a little longer in appearance than standard lower.

ATF says this on the link provided.

The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance
between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to
the center line of the bore.

I measured a DSA Tactical carbine today. Regular stock. From muzzle to end of receiver is 26". So it looks like they advertise it a inch less because of no muzzle break on the original design. The one I measured had a flash suppressor on it. So I measured were the threads end or at muzzle not suppressor. So with folded Para it should be 26"+.

OAL is measured with the stock extended.


From:

frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/multidb.cgi
[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 27, Volume 1]
[Revised as of April 1, 2001]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 27CFR179]

[Page 1001-1004]

           TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER I--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS, DEPARTMENT OF THE
                               TREASURY

PART 179--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table of Contents

Subpart B--Definitions

Sec. 179.11  Meaning of terms.

" ...Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18
inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as
modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or
barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or
barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle
if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other
weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or
a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included
within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not
include an antique firearm or any

[[Page 1003]]

device (other than a machine gun or destructive device) which, although
designed as a weapon, the Director finds by reason of the date of its
manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a
collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. For purposes
of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral
chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the
distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech
block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall
length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between
the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the
center line of the bore.

Drobs, the "gray area" is the definition of "extreme ends" If you have a folding stock and fold it, the "extreme ends" change. For legality purposes, an exact measurement method needs to be published for rifles/shotguns that have adjustable stocks.

I don't know why rifle length has any bearing on legality in the first place.

OAL is with stock open.  When ATF wants OAL for SBR's, they want OAL with stock open.Key term is overall; the longest, biggest.