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Posted: 10/8/2005 12:16:35 PM EDT
What optics do you guys use for medium-long range?

I currently have a SS10X42 on my AR, and its a cracking fixed power mil dot scope, apart from dawn and dusk, as it's light gathering capabilities are not as good as comparable feature scopes in the higher price bracket.
However, it does mount onto a long AR type rifle gracefully and works too, so it might seem.

I also have a Schmidt Und Bender 6x42, which is probably best suited on a deer rifle, given it's 30/30 reticle with thick posts and amazing light gathering. It is however, not a target shooting or AR scope whatsoever. I'll be keeping that one for hunting in Sweden on a 30-06 I think.

Obviously we know that Trijicon make a very good optics system, but it is only really suitable for AR15's. Same goes for Eotech, fantastic on AR platform, wouldnt be much good on anything but a military rifle.

SuB make a lovely 34mm 3-12X50 but that is £2500.

What else is out there that you guy's are using (and therefore, I can look through). I know Leupold is very popular, and although the eye relief is a bit weird on some models, them seem to be thoroughly good for the price.

So, what is everyone using and how does it fare?

Does anyone hunt in low light with theirs?

Which optics are best avoided with the AR platform and the eye relief issues?

Which optics work best for the UK shooter on the AR platform?


Link Posted: 10/8/2005 12:36:37 PM EDT
[#1]
For hunting (on my 243) I have a Bosh & Lomb 3-9x50. Great clarity at dawn/dusk. Unfortunately it doesn't come out much these days.

On my practical rifle which I use for long range (1000yds) as well as the more usual 25-600yds PR and service rifle practices, I have a Leupold LR Tactical 3.5-10x40. Eye relief is fine in all positions except prone, where  it could do with moving forward one notch on the rail, but can't. I've used it in some of the worst weather imaginable (remember Senybridge in Feb a few years ago Mark?) and it held up better than my gortex. I've shot it in snow storms as well but never dusk/dawn but it must have been as dark at times.

ACOG on the shorty - just because it looks good.

Rest of my ARs are A2s with no optics.

Other scopes I'm using at the moment are Simmons (1.5-5x20, great little short range scope), Leupold MkIV LR (on the 6.5-08/308 out to 1000, no eye relief problems on the Rem700) and a Hawke 10x40 fixed (great scope for the price). Rest of my rifles are either iron sights or red dots.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 12:42:15 PM EDT
[#2]
I have Schmidt PM II 3-12 x 50 on my Remmy 700, excellent lenses and the single turn adjustment is superb (don't quite know what they were thinking when they went double turn?), looking forward to trying the larget magnification Schmidt once York Guns get them in stock?  Been advertising them for months but still got none in as of a fortnight ago........

Also have just added a Leupold M4 6.5-20 x 50 to my AR, still setting that one up and hope to have a zero 100-600 yards before the end of the month.

As my eyesight is waning, eye relief is critical, and I must admit that the Schmidt seems a lot better for target acquisition.........

Undecided what to do on the carbine, because my eyesight is shite, I can't see an ACOG being a lot of use to me, open to suggestions on that one......... short scope with "some" (6x +) magnification.........
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 1:03:32 PM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
I have Schmidt PM II 3-12 x 50 on my Remmy 700, excellent lenses and the single turn adjustment is superb (don't quite know what they were thinking when they went double turn?), looking forward to trying the larget magnification Schmidt once York Guns get them in stock?  Been advertising them for months but still got none in as of a fortnight ago........

Also have just added a Leupold M4 6.5-20 x 50 to my AR, still setting that one up and hope to have a zero 100-600 yards before the end of the month.

As my eyesight is waning, eye relief is critical, and I must admit that the Schmidt seems a lot better for target acquisition.........

Undecided what to do on the carbine, because my eyesight is shite, I can't see an ACOG being a lot of use to me, open to suggestions on that one......... short scope with "some" (6x +) magnification.........



The only trouble with the 6x on PR/SR rifles is field of view. With 3 seconds to find the target at 100yds from the alert position off-hand (typical 100 snaps practice) you need a wide enough field of view to get on (the right) target quickly. In these instances I usually set at 4x.
Matt
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 1:05:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Leupold 4.5-14 x50
Very good eyerelief.  Optics are very good and the zoom range is great for most shooting. I've used it out to 1000 yards, but its really ideally suited for between 100 and 600-800 yards tops, which is just about as far as you'd want to shoot an AR anyway.
If I was buying again, and had £1500  I'd get a Schmidt& Bender 3.5-12 or 4-16 PMII.
But for the price the Leupold 4.5-14 or 3.5-10 x40 are hard to beat in my humble opinion.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 3:58:38 PM EDT
[#5]
I'm not the best person to lecture about scopes coz I'm a cheap and cheerful type of chap.

But I've used some seriously expensive scopes of other peoples and i've tried my cheap and cheerful scopes.

My $20 Chinese scope will allow me to get 1/2" groups @50m on my AR
Just the same as I can achieve 1/2"groups with my friends £500+ scope on his AR

I can hit man attack targets out to 300m with either of the above scopes

Out beyond 300m the expensive scope comes into it's own I'll admit.

I suppose it depends on the purpose of the scope as to it's effectivenes as Matt said a bigger sight picture(less magnification) can be better for snap shooting at distance.

I've not even noticed much difference in sight image brightness with the cheaper scopes either.

Maybe I'm no expert and I dunno what I'm talking bout

Taffy
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 4:42:05 PM EDT
[#6]
I mangaged a 6-2-1 score with my old Tasco 6-24 x 40 on the 100 yard / meter movers at Bisley (pissing down, but good light) mounted atop my AR carbine.  

The other night using a Streamlight M6 attached to the same gun I couldn't hit a bloody fox  that ran out of the barn ahead of me having threw 7 x 69Gr after the sod................

My points are:

a. My eyes are getting worse so I have to improve my optics.

b. The scope must suit the job it is being used for (mine was not, but got the begger with SSG the night after).

c. Image clarity improves with lens quality (sorry Taff, mine eyes have seen the glory of the        coming of the Schmidt's), I have half a dozen "cheap scopes" that I will donate to any and all comers at our club.

Basically, I need all the help I can get and if spending a few hundred quid gets me into the "X" then so be it............
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 4:55:09 PM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:
I mangaged a 6-2-1 score with my old Tasco 6-24 x 40 on the 100 yard / meter movers at Bisley (pissing down, but good light) mounted atop my AR carbine.  

The other night using a Streamlight M6 attached to the same gun I couldn't hit a bloody fox  that ran out of the barn ahead of me having threw 7 x 69Gr after the sod................

My points are:

a. My eyes are getting worse so I have to improve my optics.

b. The scope must suit the job it is being used for (mine was not, but got the begger with SSG the night after).

c. Image clarity improves with lens quality (sorry Taff, mine eyes have seen the glory of the        coming of the Schmidt's), I have half a dozen "cheap scopes" that I will donate to any and all comers at our club.

Basically, I need all the help I can get and if spending a few hundred quid gets me into the "X" then so be it............




How do I get to your club?


Taffy
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:04:57 PM EDT
[#8]
Follow me back up the road to Cumbria after the HRA Nationals........... if you can keep up!  
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:11:19 PM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:
Follow me back up the road to Cumbria after the HRA Nationals........... if you can keep up!  






You challenge a guy who had a 56day ban for doing 76mph in a 30mph zone on a "B" road on a bend. Frigging mobile speed cameras...The magistrate...


This is the worst case of speeding I've seen


I would had offered to take her for a spin



Too easy....

Can't I just buy you a few beers...
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:38:47 PM EDT
[#10]
Sat Nat with John Cleese as Co-Pilot.......... priceless!  

"Warning!  Mobile camera ahead!"

On the brakes like a Scotsman on a dropped pound coin!

Dave ( Trevor W.Wales to Penrith J40, 1hr 30mins...... in my yoof)
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:37:11 PM EDT
[#11]
ACOG and US Optics SN4 on my AR shorty (not at the same time)
US Optics SN12 on the remy 700p with accuracy int stock
ST10 on AR speedmaster.
Leupold LRT on Steyr TE
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 10:54:31 AM EDT
[#12]
Scopes, it's a subjective matter, but I'll try and give some of my thoughts.
You have a SS10x42. It's a good scope.....................................for the money.
Realistically, they should cost more. What I don't like about them is the fixed power, the 10x magnification and the reticle's subtension. That is, the reticle's too thick for my liking and covers too much of the target.

There's plenty of choice when it comes to scopes.........at first appearance. But this soon narrows down when you start looking at preferences.
I assume you want a mil-dot? There are some good reasons for choosing a mil-dot.
It's range finding capabilities for one, although you need to study and learn how to use it correctly.
Personally, although I have several mil-dot scopes, I have never had to use this facility as most of my shooting is at known distances. But they're nice to have, if only for using the extra dots for "aiming off".

If you still want a mil-dot, then the choices become a little more limited. Here are some of the choices.
Nikon
Swarovski
Unertl
US Optics
Leupold
Schmidt & Bender

If you go through these, you'll find the following:-
Nikon, Value for money scopes, not much choice in models. Poor availability in the UK.
Swarovski, Expensive but good. Limited models, fixed power.
Unertl, Rock solid, expensive, fixed power 10X.
US Optics, tough as nails, very expensive, big and heavy for what they are.
Leupold, plenty of models, value for money, excellent quality, some eye relief problems.
Schmidt & bender, legendary optics, good choice of models, expensive and a bit heavy.

When choosing a scope, I look for the following.
Vari-power, adjustment range, parallax, cost, quality and to some extent.....weight.

I think this narrows it down to two manufacturers, Leupold and Schmidt & Bender, but they both have their pro's and con's.

Leupolds have plenty of models to choose from, especially if you're looking for a Tactical model.
They are relatively light compared to other makes, most have parallax adjustment, a good power range and ample windage and elevation adjustment.
They are also competitively priced.

Schmidt's are very similar, although they are heavier they have a higher quality optics clarity, but are more expensive.

In comparing the two, I would choose the Leupold 4.5-14X50 and the Schmidt & Bender 3-12x50.
These both have side wheel parallax adjustment as opposed to objective bell adjustment. It meand you can adjust the parallax from your shooting position much easier.
The Leupold has 1/4 MOA clicks, which aren't really necessary, whereas the Schmidt has 1moa clicks, which are a bit too coarse. 1/2moa is more useable. You can adjust the Schmidt in 1/2 moa changes though, but you can do that with the Leupold too..
Schmidt,s usually have only one turn on the elevation drum for about 46moa adjustment while the Leupold had multiple turns, for a total of about 80moa adjustment.
Bear in mind, you'll only need about 17moa max to get from 100-600yds and about 45 moa to 1000, depending on ammo and calibre etc.
No scope that I know will give you that range of adjustment though, unless it is painstakingly fitted and canted correctly to the rifle.
It's possible to get "lost" with a multi-turn turret, but if you take care and mark your base zero and no-wind settings, it'll never be a problem.

The Schmidt has clearer and brighter optics than the Leupold, but I've never found this to be a hindrance, and likewise, the Leupold's are more critical with eye relief, but I think this tends to make sure you have the same cheek weld for each shot, whereas the more flexible eye relief on the Schmidt's can encourage sloppiness on the shooters part. I could be wrong though..

Essentially both scopes offer the same performance, albeit in different ways, and they are very comparable. But I think that the Leupold's slightly more critical eye relief and "lower quality optics" are more than offset by it's much lower price. I think they're better value for money, and they've helped me to do a lot of winning over the last few years.

Ideally, you should look for a scope that winds down low enough, 3-4x, to allow reliable offhand-short range performance and high enough, 10-15x, to be able to see more precise aiming and bullet splash at longer ranges.

Mark


ETA, If you want an all-round scope, I wouldn't even consider the ACOG's. They are too limited.
They don't allow precise aiming, basically they're designed to be able to hit a 19"x36" target.
They do this very well, but they are a battle sight and there's no windage allowances with them.
Besides, there's no guarantee that the reticle sub-divisions will match your ammo at all ranges.
And before anyone starts....I have two.


ETA again, consider this....most of the Western countries Snipers use either a Leupold or a Schmidt & Bender. That must say something.
Oh and I forgot Nightforce, but I don't like their length and 10MOA per turn drums
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 11:04:42 AM EDT
[#13]
Mark, Thanks for the input, the very two brands I had narrowed it down to were Leupold and Schimdt.

I already know how to use mil dots properly, so yes, that is a must.

I I have only ever felt the need to go as high at 10X, but I would prefer something that would go lower, say 3.5-4.

Also, possibly without the advantage of markers a higher magnification would be useful, say up to15 or so.

As mentioned I think SuB are fantastic but very pricey, so I am looking at Leupolds. There is also a variable power Super Sniper on the horizon, however, low light performance could be better on my scope (it is good enough for most things, but not for say, foxes in light fog at dawn).

SWFA also do an model called the X.O.T.I.C which actually looks pretty good, and is Leupold price too.

This scope will be used for both PR and for hunting, so I'm going investigate what all you guy's are using and what works, and base my purchase on a tried and tested option.

Thanks you guys!!


Dave
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:45:04 AM EDT
[#14]
Hi Dave

I've got a VXIII LRT 4.5-14x50 on my Speedmaster which seems pretty well perfect for it.

It might also pay to have a look at some of the Meopta scopes, heavier as they are a steel tube rather than aluminium but Zeiss lenses and a lifetime warranty. I've got a 7x50 on my fox rifle and its first class in low light. Variables are first focal plane so no issues with HUGE crosshairs at high mag like my Schmidt which is no better in low light but much more expensive.

Meopta Scope

IMHO an absolute bargain and optically as good as the Schmidt or Leupold.

On the subject of warranties Leupolds service is legendary I dropped an old one off a table onto a concrete floor, called to see if they would repair it and received a brand new scope 4 days later without even sending the old one back, the warranty seems to even cover gross stupidityhard

Link Posted: 10/12/2005 2:21:29 AM EDT
[#15]
Agree with you Richard,  I've got a Meopta 4-16x44 (i think) on my Sako TRG...quality optics IMO.

I also like the short Simmons 1.5-5x20 scopes too, have got a couple of 'em. Bought my last one off ebay, brand new for £49 !herehere

Cheers
Steven
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 8:38:45 AM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:
the warranty seems to even cover gross stupidity



Must not post..... Must not post.......  
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