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Posted: 12/2/2004 7:28:01 PM EDT
There was some discussion about weather or not open carry was legal in Iowa with a weapons permit.

I emailed the DPS, and got the following response:

A nonprofessional permit to carry weapons does allow a firearm to be carried concealed or not concealed as long as there are no restrictions to the contrary.  Iowa sheriffs have wide discretion in the issuance of these permits and may restrict them in any way.  A sheriff could impose restrictions that dictate when and/or what type of weapon could be carried openly or concealed.  In the absence of such a restriction, then a firearm could be carried both openly and concealed.

Keep in mind that permits are not valid for every place in Iowa (e.g., Iowa schools; riverboat casinos; some government buildings; etc.).

Sam Knowles, Bureau Chief
Program Services Bureau
Iowa Department of Public Safety


Link Posted: 12/4/2004 4:02:00 PM EDT
Very interesting subject, I did not know that open carry with a CCW was even possible in Iowa.  Now I just need to get my Sheriff in Jasper County to sign off for my CCW.  Definately save that e-mail from the DPS and NEVER delete it, actually it would be nice if you could get him to say that in writing!  Thanks for the update!
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 2:08:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2004 2:12:13 PM EDT by ni0z]
Actually, the Iowa code allows for open carry OUTSIDE OF CITY LIMITS without a permit. I would also be interested where in the Iowa code it gives the sheriff the authority to "impose restrictions" on the permit. The way I read it, he has broad discretion ISSUING the permit, but the Iowa code regulates what permit holders can and cannot do, regardless of what the local sheriff thinks...
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 4:49:17 AM EDT
Yes, you can open carry outside of city limits without a permit.



Read Section 724.7:
Any person who can reasonably justify going armed may be issued a nonprofessional permit to carry weapons. Such permits shall be on a form prescribed and published by the commissioner of public safety, which shall be readily distinguishable from the professional permit, and shall identify the holder thereof, and state the reason for the issuance of the permit, and the limits of the authority granted by such permit. All permits so issued shall be for a definite period as established by the issuing officer, but in no event shall exceed a period of twelve months.



On the back of my permit, there is a "Restrictions" section.  If the sheriff didn't want me to carry on 1st street, this is where that would be.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 7:02:15 AM EDT
bogz: Yes, I have that section on my permit as well. What I'd like to know is where in the Iowa code it gives the sheriff the authority to restrict the permit beyond existing code/law.

All it says, as you quoted above, is that the permit must state the 'limits to the authority granted by the permit', but I cannot find in the code where it gives that limiting authority to the local sheriff. Without being specifically given that authority in the code, the sheriff can really only limit the permit in accordance with Iowa and Federal law, can't he?!
Link Posted: 12/13/2004 4:08:55 PM EDT
From the Department of Public Safety (www.state.ia.us/government/dps/asd/wp/#Types%20of%20Permits):

Nonprofessional Permit to Carry Weapons - A nonprofessional permit to carry authorizes the permit holder to carry weapons within the restrictions of the issuing officer.
Link Posted: 12/13/2004 6:08:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2004 6:19:17 PM EDT by ni0z]
Ok. Somehow my English typing must be unclear... You quote me some pamphlet produced by the DPS telling me that I can only carry within the restrictions placed on the permit by the issuing officer. I say wishful thinking; the sheriff was not granted the authority by the Iowa code to restrict my permit beyond the "gun free zones" defined within the Iowa code (and Federal laws).

If that is not correct, I would like to know the exact sections within the code that do give the sheriff restrictive authority...

Iowa Code 724.4:

"1.  Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person who goes armed with a dangerous weapon concealed on or about the person, or who, within the limits of any city, goes armed with a pistol or revolver, or any loaded firearm of any kind, whether concealed or not, or who knowingly carries or transports in a vehicle a pistol or revolver, commits an aggravated misdemeanor."

That's the original "no permit necessary for open carry outside of any city" rule...

"4.  Subsections 1 through 3 do not apply to any of the following:"

"i.  A person who has in the person's possession and who displays to a peace officer on demand a valid permit to carry weapons which has been issued to the person, and whose conduct is within the limits of that permit. A person shall not be convicted of a violation of this section if the person produces at the person's trial a permit to carry weapons which was valid at the time of the alleged offense and which would have brought the person's conduct within this exception if the permit had been produced at the time of the alleged offense."

724.4.4.i allows carrying concealed with permit, and requires showing of permit upon demand...

Iowa Code 724.4A:

"1.  As used in this section, "weapons free zone" means the area in or on, or within one thousand feet of, the real property comprising a public or private elementary or secondary school, or in or on the real property comprising a public park. A weapons free zone shall not include that portion of a public park designated as a hunting area under section 461A.42."

Iowa Code 724.4B:

"1.  A person who goes armed with, carries, or transports a firearm of any kind, whether concealed or not, on the grounds of a school commits a class "D" felony. For the purposes of this section, "school" means a public or nonpublic school as defined in section 280.2."

"2.  Subsection 1 does not apply to the following:"

"a.  A person listed under section 724.4, subsection 4, paragraphs "b" through "f" or "j". "

"b.  A person who has been specifically authorized by the school to go armed, carry, or transport a firearm on the school grounds, including for purposes of conducting an instructional program regarding firearms."

These are the sections within the code that put limitations on where the permit permit holder cannot carry. To my knowledge, these are the only sections in the Iowa code that restrict where a permit holder can carry under his permit. Note that the exception granted in 2. does not apply to civilian concealed carry permit holders.

Iowa Code 726.7:

"Any person who can reasonably justify going armed may be issued a nonprofessional permit to carry weapons. Such permits shall be on a form prescribed and published by the commissioner of public safety, which shall be readily distinguishable from the professional permit, and shall identify the holder thereof, and state the reason for the issuance of the permit, and the limits of the authority granted by such permit. All permits so issued shall be for a definite period as established by the issuing officer, but in no event shall exceed a period of twelve months."

Note that it does not say "...and the limits of the authority granted by such permit, as prescribed by the issuing officer...", even though it does specifically give the issuing officer the authority to define the validity of the permit (up to 12 months maximum).

Iowa Code 726.11:

"Applications for permits to carry weapons shall be made to the sheriff of the county in which the applicant resides. Applications from persons who are nonresidents of the state, or whose need to go armed arises out of employment by the state, shall be made to the commissioner of public safety. In either case, the issuance of the permit shall be by and at the discretion of the sheriff or commissioner, who shall, before issuing the permit, determine that the requirements of sections 724.6 to 724.10 have been satisfied. However, the training program requirements in section 724.9 may be waived for renewal permits. The issuing officer shall collect a fee of ten dollars, except from a duly appointed peace officer or correctional officer, for each permit issued. Renewal permits or duplicate permits shall be issued for a fee of five dollars. The issuing officer shall notify the commissioner of public safety of the issuance of any permit at least monthly and forward to the commissioner an amount equal to two dollars for each permit issued and one dollar for each renewal or duplicate permit issued. All such fees received by the commissioner shall be paid to the treasurer of state and deposited in the operating account of the department of public safety to offset the cost of administering this chapter. Any unspent balance as of June 30 of each year shall revert to the general fund as provided by section 8.33."

Again, nowhere in here does it give the 'issuing officer' any authority over restricting the validity of the permit. Legally, regardless of what 'restrictions' the local sheriff might put on the permit, a permit holder is only bound by the restrictions stated in the code.

This whole thing reminds me of the bogus "No carrying allowed in Post Office" flyer, which is posted in most post offices and is just plain not true. The DPS is misleading permit holders.

Ok, I rest my case; unless somebody quotes the section of the code that proves me wrong...

(For those interested, here is the full "Chapter 724 - Weapons" of the Iowa code...)
Link Posted: 12/13/2004 6:14:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2004 6:20:16 PM EDT by ni0z]
Edited above for formatting & corrected link.
Link Posted: 12/13/2004 6:30:45 PM EDT
I am not a lawyer, but from what I read, and other's interpretation of the code, 724.7 states ...limits of the authority granted by such permit

The Sheriff is the issuing body, and as such, can place the restrictions that they see fit.

Again, I am not a lawyer.

Perhaps you can contact the Department of Public Safety for further clarification.  I found that they offer a quick turn-around on questions, and I would consider them an authorative figure on the subject.
Link Posted: 12/13/2004 6:35:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2004 6:39:18 PM EDT
Here is a more authoritative word.

From www.legis.state.ia.us/Rules/Current/iac/661iac/6614/6614.pdf:

4.4(2) The sheriff may use discretion in determining whether or not to issue the permit. Prior to
issuing the permit, the sheriff shall determine that the applicant is not a convicted felon, or otherwise prohibited from possessing or acquiring a firearm under either Iowa or federal law, by running a NICS check through the IOWA system. The sheriff may restrict or limit the authority of professional and nonprofessional permits.

More for your reading: www.dps.state.ia.us/asd/license.htm.  This is pretty helpful, as it deals with issuance of permits.
Link Posted: 12/13/2004 8:34:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2004 3:38:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Iowa screwed up this year but I did not take advantage, rather than sending me my renewal forms in the mail this year, they sent me a blank carry permit form.  I could have sold that on the internet like a signed blank check.

I did the right thing filled in the form and sent it back to them for thier final processing.



Interesting.

Do you have the blue paper permit?

Polk county has moved to driver license style cards.
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 4:22:39 AM EDT
Exactly - the Iowa Code does not give the sheriff the authority, some bureaucrat in the DPS did by administrative rule or 'edict'.
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 8:35:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
My only limitation on my permit has to do with when consuming alcohol or illegal drugs.




My last 5 permits said that, but this year it has zero restrictions.
Link Posted: 12/18/2004 5:54:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ni0z:
Exactly - the Iowa Code does not give the sheriff the authority, some bureaucrat in the DPS did by administrative rule or 'edict'.



I would assume the Iowa code gives them the latitude to make those calls.

If you disagree, you can always call them and ask "hey, why do you get to make the rules" :)

Link Posted: 12/18/2004 3:37:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2004 6:55:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2004 6:58:03 AM EDT by ni0z]
Actually, I did question the sheriff's authority, and we had a good discussion about the Iowa discretionary permit system, shall-issue like e.g. in SD, and the only constitutional carry 'permit' system, VT and AK style.

We finally agreed to disagree, of course... While I submit to this unconsitutional infringement of my right to 'keep and bear' arms, since the state has the power, albeit unconstitutionally, I am not standing by idly. Instead of fighting for a shall-issue CCW style permit systm, like some, I fight for a constitutional solution: remove the government's (bureaucrats') power to turn my right into a privilege that they 'grant' me through a permit system. Ultimately, no US citizen needs government approval to exercise their God-given rights...

Unfortunately, your comment ("If you disagree, you can always call them and ask hey, why do you get to make the rules :)") shows you to be part of the problem, even when stated as a "joke". They actually dont' get to make the rules legally, they are unconstitutionally usurping the right to keep and bear arms from the people. 'Nuff said.
Link Posted: 12/19/2004 9:31:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2004 9:31:53 AM EDT by David_Hineline]
Link Posted: 12/19/2004 10:42:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ni0z:
Ultimately, no US citizen needs government approval to exercise their God-given rights...

Unfortunately, your comment ("If you disagree, you can always call them and ask hey, why do you get to make the rules :)") shows you to be part of the problem, even when stated as a "joke". They actually dont' get to make the rules legally, they are unconstitutionally usurping the right to keep and bear arms from the people. 'Nuff said.



If they are doing this unconstitutionally, then perhaps you should start a campaign and bring a lawsuit against the Iowa government.

And to your first statement, what god-given right are you talking about?
Link Posted: 12/24/2004 7:30:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2004 7:46:00 AM EDT by ni0z]
Oh boy... Condescending sheeple - I've seen it all now.

And with respect to God-given rights, how about "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness; these are primary rights endowed upon us by our Creator, the Second Amendment is a secondary right supporting the first two primary rights. And the Second Amendment (A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed - my emphasis) is quite clear about what govenrment entities cannot do - namely infringe that right.

The Declaration of Independence is quite clear about Government powers: That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed - and I withdraw my consent from bureaucrat-made 'administrative rules'.
Link Posted: 12/27/2004 11:43:16 AM EDT
Excellent!  I'm a condescending sheeple now!  Do I get to get into the secret meetings now?

You are an interesting cat!

Unless you are doing something truly unique, aren't you a sheeple as well?

You think the government is comprised of tyrants doing what they want, infringing on your rights.  I'm sure there is a club for that too.
Link Posted: 12/27/2004 12:36:22 PM EDT
Bogz I want you to take a DEEEPPPP breath and let it out slowly...and again...there you are now in a happy place where there is an entire range full of targets and an unlimited ammo supply.  NiOz I'll have you know that bogz is far from being a condescending sheeple and this thread is meant to be informative and constructive...not destructive.  I understand that everyone has their own opinions but let's not get personal and start mud slinging...this goes for everyone.  I personally don't have any firsthand knowledge about this topic as Jasper County will not sign for CCW so I have elected to just troll this thread as I don't have anything constructive to say on either side of the issue.  Just my $.02 worth as YMMV.
Link Posted: 12/27/2004 7:36:59 PM EDT
Booger-Hooker, I do take bogz' posts as condescending...


If you disagree, you can always call them and ask "hey, why do you get to make the rules" :)

If they are doing this unconstitutionally, then perhaps you should start a campaign and bring a lawsuit against the Iowa government.


And then the latest one...

You think the government is comprised of tyrants doing what they want, infringing on your rights. I'm sure there is a club for that too.


The first thing you do is marginalize or ridicule those you don't agree with - bogz is using the exact same tactics as the antis, just like calling certain semi-autos "assault weapons", or calling certain bolt-action rifles "sniper rifles". This is creating a picture in peoples' minds that makes it easier to enact (illegal) restrictions ("come on, who in their right minf needs an assault weapon..."). Of course, only some looney would think the "government is comprised of tyrants...", therefore I must be a looney, or at best "an interesting cat". I don't think the government is comprised of tyrants, but I do believe the government is usurping powers from the people that are not its.

Anyhow. No point discussing this further. Meeeeeeeow.

Link Posted: 12/30/2004 3:39:25 PM EDT
Happy New Year to all. And may your groups be within 1 MOA ;).
Link Posted: 12/30/2004 4:29:23 PM EDT
I would rather be sitting around a campfire discussing this than over the internet because of the difficulty in having a spirited discussion without the human contact of seeing who you are talking to as well as all the non-verbal communication that goes on.  If anyone obtains anymore information that pertains to this threads original topic then I hope they will post them.  Since I don't know much about this topic I don't have too much to add at this point...GRRRRR(?)
Link Posted: 1/1/2005 7:05:52 PM EDT
Interesting subject. A few months ago, I was told by a Des Moines PD officer, who conducts CCW classes, that if somebody sees your firearm while carring, and reports it, then you will be disarmed, placed in the police car, and taken to jail. He then added that you might not be charged with a crime, depending on the situation, but there's about a 99% chance that the Sherrif will take away your permit.?
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 8:24:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 8:27:10 PM EDT by wantone]
FWIF: When I took my CCW class and exam in Polk County, albeit over 10 years ago, the class was specifically told that they were "concealed weapons" permits, and that the weapon had to be concealed.

Seen this resource?

http://www.packing.org/state/index.jsp/iowa/

I do know that since the time I took the course, the officer notification has changed; at that time you were supposed to inform an officer of permit and weapons carry if stopped for say, a traffic violation.
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