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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/25/2006 9:44:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 9:48:36 PM EDT by Kalahnikid]
I hope this doesnt go downhill and if it does, Im sorry Cody.....but....


American men dont give up, real American men never give up the good fight. Omaha Beach guys...
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 11:19:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
American men dont give up, real American men never give up the good fight. Omaha Beach guys...



I'm sorry, but there comes time for tactical retreat. I fear the time is near.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 11:45:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
I hope this doesnt go downhill and if it does, Im sorry Cody.....but....


American men dont give up, real American men never give up the good fight. Omaha Beach guys...




You don't want those who will run & hide covering your 6 anyway!!


____________________________________
The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you are already dead. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function, without mercy, without compassion, without remorse.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:33:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 4:12:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
I hope this doesnt go downhill and if it does, Im sorry Cody.....but....


American men dont give up, real American men never give up the good fight. Omaha Beach guys...




I couldn't agree more, I just don't understand the french like attitude some of us have.

Blago, and his AWB are done. Topenka,while far from my idea of a good Gov. At least won't be parrating Dailey's anti-gun bullshit every other day. Plus we stand a much better chance of seeing a CCW law pased with her.



Link Posted: 3/26/2006 4:27:36 AM EDT
If someone doesn't have a stomach for the fight or is just plain burnt out I can understand.

At one time or another we have probably all thought how it would be nice to live in a freer, warmer or whatever place,

What I don't understand is the religious zeal that some have in trying to recruit others to their defeatist philosophy.

Anyone remember the old Gullivers Travels cartoon with the charactor Glum? He went around saying "we're doomed, we'll never make it!" every time trouble arose.

We have some "Glums" around here.

Link Posted: 3/26/2006 5:24:20 AM EDT
I fully understand the desire to stand and fight, I really do. What I think some do not understand is that there comes a time in ones life where he is just plain sick and tired of fighting and wishes to be amongst his peers.

With all due respect, this is not a new fight for me as it so many other members on the forumn. I have been involved in this fight since I was born. My Father was one of the few that actually owned black rifles in the 70's. I don't think many people realize that then and now, there is/was a huge contingency of shooters that don't accept military style firearms.

For the record, let me state my point. I am VERY well traveled in regards to the United States. The only states I have not seen are Alaska, Hawaii and Washington State. I know enough about this country to know just how much Illinois has eroded. When I was a kid, Illinois was touted as a great place for the working class to raise a family, that is no longer the case.

Real Estate is completely unaffordable, the weather completely sucks, it is very difficult to earn a decent living here in this day and age and the mentality of the people is just utterly sickening. Some of you guys are too young to remember, but Illinois and more importantly Chicagoland used to be a very blue collar/tough guy kind of town. It is no longer and will never be again.

Now conversely, we preach to stand and fight, we talk about planting our boots firmly in the soil and standing tall. However, when I am the constant object of attacks from a certain member, and I bite back, which I do bite back and generally the person who provoked me is very sorry, the thread gets locked.

Cody, I appreciate you being the moderator, I like you personally and I had a great time shooting with you, but I think you are quick to lock posts. Look in the AR15 forumn, or even general discussion and you will see 6 or 7 page threads of people simply shredding each other.

I will not cower from personal attacks for the sake of internet civility. I do, give you my promise as a gentleman to not start it, but if I am attacked personally, which this memeber thrives upon, I will snap back.

I do however apologige for the position I put you in, like I said, I think you are a good guy.

Now, Illinois? I stay here simply for my kids, either way, when they are grown, my wife and I will move to the South. That simple fact is the desire to live amongst good Christian people that still get it, people like me. It has nothing to do with tucking tail and running.

As of this current time in Illinois, there are so many other factors other than the AW ban that may or may not happen that make me want out.

Does anyone else own a small business in Illinois? If you do, you understand the disgusting amount of income that you have to pay for unemployment.

Anyone else have to go to parent teacher conferences? Are you not disguated with the other men there? Are you not at all disgusted at what men have become in general? The weanie emasculated male is mainly found in large urban areas. I do not relate to men that allow their wives to be in charge, and they are plentiful in Illinois.

For me, and my wife and many of my peers, we are very bitter about what we view as a sociological decay by our parents generation, I know I harp on it all the time, but the far reaching damage they have done to our society and families I fear id unrepairable. I have many friends that are older and know a lot of good people from the Babyboomer generation, but as a whole, the ones in corporate and political power, especially in major urban areas are not the type of people I prefer to mingle with.

The idea must be grasped that this country is no longer free. Our federal government allows tyrants like Daley to operate the way they do. There are free pockets of America, and un-free pockets of America, almost like Red Dawn. As far as I can tell, with the gross amount of tax money I shell out, I have to support the people who constantly try to strip me of my rights.

Guys, you are not wanted here anymore. You are viewed as redneck white trash because you own guns, but more importantly, most disturbingly your thought process is what they wish to eradicate. You and I believe in self reliance, and God. We don't believe in depending on government for everything, we are self sufficient b ecause we know where government reliance leads. They want us out, neutered. They want all people depending on government for everything, they want ultimate control.

They have profiled all of us, and they are right about us. It's not the guns they want, it's the man that will stand seperate from governmental powers that they want. The modern emasculated fanny pack wearing Babyboomer man will not rest until all men are as equally proverbially impotent as he is. Liberals (The weak) will never rest until they have legislated away Natural Selection. They know in the food chain who tops who. They know in a convential fight, they would be dissolved. Legislation and the instant creation of criminals is the only way they could eradicate us.

The bittersweet truth is that this country will have to become two countries, or it will erupt into the mother of all civil wars. Folks believe that people of the modern day don't have it in them, that's because they spend too much time in Illinois. I agree the people of Illinois have no sack, but go South, go West, talk to the real bikers, not the middle aged dentists and accountants riding $30k Harleys, and you will find people that still have the guts and the will.

I will fight with my Illinois brothers, but if they pass this gun ban, what are we to do then? What happens when you have a fire and the "authorities" find your stashed "assault weapons?" Are you willing to rot in prison away from your family? Are you willing to turn your guns into Rod Blagojevich's wife Pattie that wants to save the children?

I'd rather move.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 10:50:12 AM EDT
Well put, Patriot73.


Originally Posted By patriot73:
You are viewed as redneck white trash because you own guns, but more importantly, most disturbingly your thought process is what they wish to eradicate. You and I believe in self reliance, and God. We don't believe in depending on government for everything, we are self sufficient because we know where government reliance leads. They want us out, neutered. They want all people depending on government for everything, they want ultimate control.



+1
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:17:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 9:22:37 PM EDT by WIZZO_ARAKM14]

Originally Posted By Tim84K10:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
American men dont give up, real American men never give up the good fight. Omaha Beach guys...



I'm sorry, but there comes time for tactical retreat. I fear the time is near.



Funny thing in politics, once you lose something (i.e. a God given right in this case) there's a good chance you're not getting it back...ever. If they give you a right back, that's essentially saying "Yeah, uhhh, we fucked up, so you can have these back now". People aren't as willing to re-elect people that screw up in office and admit it.

The 1994 AWB was a fluke. The only reason it passed was because they put the 10 year sunset clause in it. Politics. The only reason it wasn't re-upped was because of one thing. Politics.

Politicians don't give a shit about these pesky things called "rights". They just want to get re-elected and keep their good paying Gubment job.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 4:04:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BigBore45:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
I hope this doesnt go downhill and if it does, Im sorry Cody.....but....


American men dont give up, real American men never give up the good fight. Omaha Beach guys...




I couldn't agree more, I just don't understand the french like attitude some of us have.

Blago, and his AWB are done. Topenka,while far from my idea of a good Gov. At least won't be parrating Dailey's anti-gun bullshit every other day. Plus we stand a much better chance of seeing a CCW law pased with her.


Very well said. The French comparison is very apt. I for one am sick and tired of reading supposed "gun owners" here every single year babbling on about how they are going to comply with the Daley gun ban of the year. Less time should be spent trying to figure out which of your guns will be "permitted" iff something passes. More time should be spent writing senators and congressmen.

If you can't or won't fight for your gun rights, step aside. Don't be a liability for those of us willing to continue the fight.

If Topinka maintains her opposition to the Daley AW ban, we should get behind her even if we don't agree with her other policies. I for one don't want to hear about banning "assault weapons" every year nor do I want to see Blago as president. Let's do our part to make him a one-term governor!!
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 11:38:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 11:40:47 AM EDT by mack69]
Patriot, first let me say that I agree with you 100%, what you say about the current state of manliness in our society is also spot on. I live in Schaumburg and for the past 6 years I see it everyday...my neighbors, the parents at school, in the stores, on the streets. The men around this town are starting to take on the likeness of the emasculated, bumbling, hen pecked dufus's of tv.
I often wonder what happened to the blue collar, tough guys that Chicago and area were famous for...They've been replaced by drones in starched shirts, briefcases and trench coats all dressed the same to do their masters bidding.
I don't fit in here very well as I am a gun owner, I love to shoot, reload, tinker, collect and build guns...My kids, right down to my 3 year old are familiar with guns and gun safety as well. I have made it a point to make sure they are familiar with firearms, ammunition, and handling of such things.
I also agree with you on the very near possibility of a civil war here in this country. The rich get richer and the rest of us have to pick up the slack. Not one of us. even if we were the better candidate for any political office stands a chance of getting in as we do not have the tens of millions of dollars required to pay our way into power. We are once again being governed by the elite, and things are getting to look and feel too much as they did back when our fore fathers gathered together to break away from the tyrannical and oppressive monarchy that ruled us.
It's coming....I only hope that there will be enough of us left to stand and fight when the time comes....It seems though that most of the people out there have no clue that their inalienable rights are being chipped away to the point that soon there will be nothing left...
WAKE UP AMERICA!!!
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 12:25:49 PM EDT
As Thomas Paine once said: "If there must be trouble, let it be now so that my children can live in peace."
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 2:17:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 2:17:32 PM EDT by patriot73]

Originally Posted By mack69:
Patriot, first let me say that I agree with you 100%, what you say about the current state of manliness in our society is also spot on. I live in Schaumburg and for the past 6 years I see it everyday...my neighbors, the parents at school, in the stores, on the streets. The men around this town are starting to take on the likeness of the emasculated, bumbling, hen pecked dufus's of tv.
I often wonder what happened to the blue collar, tough guys that Chicago and area were famous for...They've been replaced by drones in starched shirts, briefcases and trench coats all dressed the same to do their masters bidding.
I don't fit in here very well as I am a gun owner, I love to shoot, reload, tinker, collect and build guns...My kids, right down to my 3 year old are familiar with guns and gun safety as well. I have made it a point to make sure they are familiar with firearms, ammunition, and handling of such things.
I also agree with you on the very near possibility of a civil war here in this country. The rich get richer and the rest of us have to pick up the slack. Not one of us. even if we were the better candidate for any political office stands a chance of getting in as we do not have the tens of millions of dollars required to pay our way into power. We are once again being governed by the elite, and things are getting to look and feel too much as they did back when our fore fathers gathered together to break away from the tyrannical and oppressive monarchy that ruled us.
It's coming....I only hope that there will be enough of us left to stand and fight when the time comes....It seems though that most of the people out there have no clue that their inalienable rights are being chipped away to the point that soon there will be nothing left...
WAKE UP AMERICA!!!



Amen brother. The half-men that reside in this area should hang their head in shame.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:57:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mack69:
Patriot, first let me say that I agree with you 100%, what you say about the current state of manliness in our society is also spot on. I live in Schaumburg and for the past 6 years I see it everyday...my neighbors, the parents at school, in the stores, on the streets. The men around this town are starting to take on the likeness of the emasculated, bumbling, hen pecked dufus's of tv.
I often wonder what happened to the blue collar, tough guys that Chicago and area were famous for...They've been replaced by drones in starched shirts, briefcases and trench coats all dressed the same to do their masters bidding.
I don't fit in here very well as I am a gun owner, I love to shoot, reload, tinker, collect and build guns...My kids, right down to my 3 year old are familiar with guns and gun safety as well. I have made it a point to make sure they are familiar with firearms, ammunition, and handling of such things.
I also agree with you on the very near possibility of a civil war here in this country. The rich get richer and the rest of us have to pick up the slack. Not one of us. even if we were the better candidate for any political office stands a chance of getting in as we do not have the tens of millions of dollars required to pay our way into power. We are once again being governed by the elite, and things are getting to look and feel too much as they did back when our fore fathers gathered together to break away from the tyrannical and oppressive monarchy that ruled us.
It's coming....I only hope that there will be enough of us left to stand and fight when the time comes....It seems though that most of the people out there have no clue that their inalienable rights are being chipped away to the point that soon there will be nothing left...
WAKE UP AMERICA!!!



yeah, but you talk about the blue collar "tough guys" of yesteryear. i work with them everyday (i guess that makes me a wimp-eh call me what ya want ) and that's exactly what they are-hardworkers. i've seen guys get out of a piece of equipment and puke off the side-wipe his mouth and get back in. some of the guys that work in the back of property just crap off the side of the machine wipe his ass with paper towels and hop back in (no i don't watch that). their faces are weathered and sun dried from workin' in the heat and cold year around. broken fingers, blood all that monthly. and they are very-very conservative almost all the way across the board. only one thing remains wrong here.....they are all democrats. count it a straight ticket for all of them. me and one other guy (big time skeet shooter, going all over the midwest and nra guy) could be considered republicans. we also belong to a union. i don't know if the illusion of union friendly dems is what brings them to that side or what. i honestly believe that it is because they don't pay attention to the political happenings and issues on either side. their daddys voted democrat and they will. they have no idea that the democratic party of years past isn't what it is today. i'd vote democratic too if they were conservative and believed in the same values i did. you just don't find it. my .02

jake
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 5:34:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 5:36:25 PM EDT by JoseyWales]

Originally Posted By BigBore45:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
I hope this doesnt go downhill and if it does, Im sorry Cody.....but....


American men dont give up, real American men never give up the good fight. Omaha Beach guys...




I couldn't agree more, I just don't understand the french like attitude some of us have.

Blago, and his AWB are done. Topenka,while far from my idea of a good Gov. At least won't be parrating Dailey's anti-gun bullshit every other day. Plus we stand a much better chance of seeing a CCW law pased with her.








I agree. Topenka, while disgusting to my soul, is the only alternative. Blaaaa-go is something you flush down the toilet.



And Illinois is filled with assholes. I can't wait to move back to Ohio some day.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:32:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By deerkillindad21:

Originally Posted By mack69:
Patriot, first let me say that I agree with you 100%, what you say about the current state of manliness in our society is also spot on. I live in Schaumburg and for the past 6 years I see it everyday...my neighbors, the parents at school, in the stores, on the streets. The men around this town are starting to take on the likeness of the emasculated, bumbling, hen pecked dufus's of tv.
I often wonder what happened to the blue collar, tough guys that Chicago and area were famous for...They've been replaced by drones in starched shirts, briefcases and trench coats all dressed the same to do their masters bidding.
I don't fit in here very well as I am a gun owner, I love to shoot, reload, tinker, collect and build guns...My kids, right down to my 3 year old are familiar with guns and gun safety as well. I have made it a point to make sure they are familiar with firearms, ammunition, and handling of such things.
I also agree with you on the very near possibility of a civil war here in this country. The rich get richer and the rest of us have to pick up the slack. Not one of us. even if we were the better candidate for any political office stands a chance of getting in as we do not have the tens of millions of dollars required to pay our way into power. We are once again being governed by the elite, and things are getting to look and feel too much as they did back when our fore fathers gathered together to break away from the tyrannical and oppressive monarchy that ruled us.
It's coming....I only hope that there will be enough of us left to stand and fight when the time comes....It seems though that most of the people out there have no clue that their inalienable rights are being chipped away to the point that soon there will be nothing left...
WAKE UP AMERICA!!!



yeah, but you talk about the blue collar "tough guys" of yesteryear. i work with them everyday (i guess that makes me a wimp-eh call me what ya want ) and that's exactly what they are-hardworkers. i've seen guys get out of a piece of equipment and puke off the side-wipe his mouth and get back in. some of the guys that work in the back of property just crap off the side of the machine wipe his ass with paper towels and hop back in (no i don't watch that). their faces are weathered and sun dried from workin' in the heat and cold year around. broken fingers, blood all that monthly. and they are very-very conservative almost all the way across the board. only one thing remains wrong here.....they are all democrats. count it a straight ticket for all of them. me and one other guy (big time skeet shooter, going all over the midwest and nra guy) could be considered republicans. we also belong to a union. i don't know if the illusion of union friendly dems is what brings them to that side or what. i honestly believe that it is because they don't pay attention to the political happenings and issues on either side. their daddys voted democrat and they will. they have no idea that the democratic party of years past isn't what it is today. i'd vote democratic too if they were conservative and believed in the same values i did. you just don't find it. my .02

jake



Are you talking about the Operator's Union? All union workers are brainwashed by the union to vote Democrat. Republicans (including myself) understand that unions are bad for business. Unions penalize good management and protect bad workers.

There was a time when the Democratic party wasn't the gun grabbing 60's hippie machine it is today. The Democratic party was the party of the South during the civil war. It's Babyboomers that have turned the democratic party into the Liberal Socialist hand out machine it is today.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:51:22 PM EDT
hey, i totally agree with everything you say down to a "T". however, i see it everywhere. the only people that i know that vote republican that make less than say 80 grand is gun owners (and i know a LOT of "hunters" that are staunch dems cuz "they'll never take away guns") and Christians. a lot of my congregation votes republican mostly for the abortion issue. however we even have a guy that has been goin' to that church for 50 years that is a big time democrat in the county and serves on several commitees and organizations. i live in a very conservative farming county but it is heavily democratic. i can't really explain it except that it's that old thing of "well my parents voted democrat..." a lot of people around here wear bib overalls and straw hats yet vote for some liberal that wants set up a socialist government mostly because they don't read the newspaper or watch the nightly news. just my .02


jake
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:25:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deerkillindad21:
hey, i totally agree with everything you say down to a "T". however, i see it everywhere. the only people that i know that vote republican that make less than say 80 grand is gun owners (and i know a LOT of "hunters" that are staunch dems cuz "they'll never take away guns") and Christians. a lot of my congregation votes republican mostly for the abortion issue. however we even have a guy that has been goin' to that church for 50 years that is a big time democrat in the county and serves on several commitees and organizations. i live in a very conservative farming county but it is heavily democratic. i can't really explain it except that it's that old thing of "well my parents voted democrat..." a lot of people around here wear bib overalls and straw hats yet vote for some liberal that wants set up a socialist government mostly because they don't read the newspaper or watch the nightly news. just my .02


jake



Same here.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:12:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By deerkillindad21:
hey, i totally agree with everything you say down to a "T". however, i see it everywhere. the only people that i know that vote republican that make less than say 80 grand is gun owners (and i know a LOT of "hunters" that are staunch dems cuz "they'll never take away guns") and Christians. a lot of my congregation votes republican mostly for the abortion issue. however we even have a guy that has been goin' to that church for 50 years that is a big time democrat in the county and serves on several commitees and organizations. i live in a very conservative farming county but it is heavily democratic. i can't really explain it except that it's that old thing of "well my parents voted democrat..." a lot of people around here wear bib overalls and straw hats yet vote for some liberal that wants set up a socialist government mostly because they don't read the newspaper or watch the nightly news. just my .02


jake



I think apathy can be found anywhere. I feel your pain.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 1:16:06 PM EDT
I know that there are certain dems that are problematic for gun owners, and increase the overall size of the government, but have you been paying any attention to the absolute bullshit that the current Congress and Presidency is supporting? This free trade is absolutely killing off the tiny amount of manufacturing we have left in this country. I can't find anything made here, I spent three weeks looking for lathepieces made in the states, and wound up empty handed.
Maybe it is time to shift some of your efforts and put back in place the trade restrictions that have been removed. I've been through two economics classes, and understand that the elitist view that they hold is that any restriction is ultimately bad, but they don't include the other part of that, which is human suffering. Without jobs, without income, without the basic provisions needed for life, this country is undoubtedly going to crash and burn. All of the politicians are to balme for this, conservative and liberal. Look at GM, they have been pulling out of the United States, decimating the communities that they leave, making unheard of profits, and leaving thousands without a means of life. It does cost slightly more to keep things made here, and have labor, that is producing the items in question, taken care of in respect to a standard of living and decent medical care.

I know most of you will ignore this, or counter it with something to the effect of "they should..."
But you are ignoring the fact that if it keeps up at the rate that it is going, YOU will not be in the elite that is unaffected. There are very very few who could handle the country collapsing around them, and still manage to live well, but from what I read here, none of you are in that range. The effects might not be apparent yet, but the cracks are showing. It took me three full months to find a new job the last time I was out of work. Unemployment is on the rise. Underemployment is rampant, and kids fresh out of college are fucked for their first ten to twenty years from debt accrued in college. This is not the way things used to be, and I don't see a simple way to return to an era where every one was taken care of.

Flame on.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:34:34 PM EDT
I heard a lot of the same arguments in the 80's that you are making now Mark. They were wrong then and still are.


Look at GM, they have been pulling out of the United States, decimating the communities that they leave, making unheard of profits, and leaving thousands without a means of life. It does cost slightly more to keep things made here, and have labor, that is producing the items in question, taken care of in respect to a standard of living and decent medical care.


GM is a good example of why manufacturing is moving out of country. When the current President of GM took over he joked that he didn't realize he was going to run a health care/retirement provider instead of a car manufacturer.

You can blame organized laber and their communist/socialist rhetorics effectiveness for the demise of GM every bit if not more than bad management. You cannot promise high salaries, full health care and full retirement benifets to every widget installer and stay in business.

If you think it is the responsibility of your employer and government to provide for your retirement and health care you are a socialist and a fool (not you personally Mark but "us" in general).

The health care industry needs to be divorced from employer/government every bit as much as social security needs to be privatized.

A comfortable retirement and health care are not rights.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 3:09:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MarkinIN:
I know that there are certain dems that are problematic for gun owners, and increase the overall size of the government, but have you been paying any attention to the absolute bullshit that the current Congress and Presidency is supporting? This free trade is absolutely killing off the tiny amount of manufacturing we have left in this country. I can't find anything made here, I spent three weeks looking for lathepieces made in the states, and wound up empty handed.
Maybe it is time to shift some of your efforts and put back in place the trade restrictions that have been removed. I've been through two economics classes, and understand that the elitist view that they hold is that any restriction is ultimately bad, but they don't include the other part of that, which is human suffering. Without jobs, without income, without the basic provisions needed for life, this country is undoubtedly going to crash and burn. All of the politicians are to balme for this, conservative and liberal. Look at GM, they have been pulling out of the United States, decimating the communities that they leave, making unheard of profits, and leaving thousands without a means of life. It does cost slightly more to keep things made here, and have labor, that is producing the items in question, taken care of in respect to a standard of living and decent medical care.

I know most of you will ignore this, or counter it with something to the effect of "they should..."
But you are ignoring the fact that if it keeps up at the rate that it is going, YOU will not be in the elite that is unaffected. There are very very few who could handle the country collapsing around them, and still manage to live well, but from what I read here, none of you are in that range. The effects might not be apparent yet, but the cracks are showing. It took me three full months to find a new job the last time I was out of work. Unemployment is on the rise. Underemployment is rampant, and kids fresh out of college are fucked for their first ten to twenty years from debt accrued in college. This is not the way things used to be, and I don't see a simple way to return to an era where every one was taken care of.

Flame on.




45Ron is right Mark, and to repeat what he said, these arguments were made in the eighties. They were wrong then and your points are wrong now. I would be interested to know where you took your economics classes. I trust almost no college or universirty in this day and age to promote anything but far left ideology.

Labor Unions are to blame pure and simple for the demise of American manufacturing. You CANNOT pay assembly line workers $30 per hour and provide them with cradle to the grave health care and expect them to turn a profit. In your economics class did you touch on market correction in a free and open market? This is simply what is happening again, or the way I like to put it "stage two" with stage one having taken place in the eighties. Manufacturers simply CANNOT stay in business and cater to the demands of Labor Unions. The market will not bear the high labor price tag of union workers, so it corrects itself by exporting manufacturing overseas.

I own a small business and when union guys find out I'm non-union they are perplexed at how I can work non union, they are brainwashed.

You CANNOT buy a decent home built by the unions anymore because the labor rate is so outrageously high for union tradesmen that the shortcuts must be made in
a. Materials
b. Workmanship.

I have a Union Carpenter buddy whom is not only proud of the mantra "hack and don't look back." But boasts of banging up a 3,000 sq ft home in 5 days. Five days? To frame a 3k sq ft house? The Union Carpenters can BS themselves all day about how good and fast they are but let me tell you, you cannot do a top notch job in five days. To make it worse, the POS final product they provide, is unaffordable by most.

The likes of Jimmy Hoffa and others have ruined the labor force in this country. Not "elitists" not "Evil Republicans" but Unions.

Again, unions do two things. Punish good management and reward bad workers.

In ten years I doubt you will see many labor unions in operation, they are falling apart at the seams. That is the best thing that could happen to the American economy.

Union Labor sucks.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:33:13 PM EDT
Unions have done a fair amount of damage to this country and are responsible for a lot of the manufacturing outsourcing, IMO. Constant demands for more money and healthcare are what really entertains me. Are they gonna work harder for the increased amount of cash that their employer is giving them? Probably not. Are they gonna withhold going to the doctor unless it's actually needed? Probably not. My Uncle (God rest his soul) worked at the local steel mill and my aunt and cousins were going to the doctor constantly for little piddly shit. Not because they needed to go, but because there was a chance that they could get some medicine for what ailed them for $5 a prescription.

Unions support inefficiency by making it difficult to fire workers (teachers unions are the worst violators of this). If someone has the "power" of the union behind them fighting for their job, they will feel safer and not be pushed to excel at what they do when they know the union will be there if it ever comes around again that they are gonna be fired.

A perfect example of this inefficiency is the IL State road repair crew locally. Late last fall, there were 8 people at one site to grind one small stump in someone's front yard. 2 guys were sitting on their ass in one dumptruck one one side of the road with the yellow lights flashing. Another 2 were sitting on their asses doing the same thing in the other side of the road in another dumptruck. One guy was sitting on their ass in the pickup that the stump grinder was hooked to. Two were standing around making sure the rakes they had wouldn't fall over and they had the last guy running the grinder. So....8 guys employed, 5 sitting on their ass, 1 actually working. I think they were there for around 2 hours....I figure roughly $480 worth of labor (8 workers X $30 per hour X 2 hours) for what one (or lets get crazy and say 2 guys) could have done for $60 or $120 worth of labor.

I'm not saying labor unions are all bad. If you're a worker in a union, you're on the right end of the situation. You get the union wages and benefits that normal work-a-day guys son't get. Unions are great for the worker, but not-so-great for the employer, simple as that.

WIZZO

BTW, this isn't meant as a bash to anyone as I know a few of the guys on here are union workers. I'm talking from a pure economic point of view here.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:40:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By patriot73:

Originally Posted By MarkinIN:
I know that there are certain dems that are problematic for gun owners, and increase the overall size of the government, but have you been paying any attention to the absolute bullshit that the current Congress and Presidency is supporting? This free trade is absolutely killing off the tiny amount of manufacturing we have left in this country. I can't find anything made here, I spent three weeks looking for lathepieces made in the states, and wound up empty handed.
Maybe it is time to shift some of your efforts and put back in place the trade restrictions that have been removed. I've been through two economics classes, and understand that the elitist view that they hold is that any restriction is ultimately bad, but they don't include the other part of that, which is human suffering. Without jobs, without income, without the basic provisions needed for life, this country is undoubtedly going to crash and burn. All of the politicians are to balme for this, conservative and liberal. Look at GM, they have been pulling out of the United States, decimating the communities that they leave, making unheard of profits, and leaving thousands without a means of life. It does cost slightly more to keep things made here, and have labor, that is producing the items in question, taken care of in respect to a standard of living and decent medical care.

I know most of you will ignore this, or counter it with something to the effect of "they should..."
But you are ignoring the fact that if it keeps up at the rate that it is going, YOU will not be in the elite that is unaffected. There are very very few who could handle the country collapsing around them, and still manage to live well, but from what I read here, none of you are in that range. The effects might not be apparent yet, but the cracks are showing. It took me three full months to find a new job the last time I was out of work. Unemployment is on the rise. Underemployment is rampant, and kids fresh out of college are fucked for their first ten to twenty years from debt accrued in college. This is not the way things used to be, and I don't see a simple way to return to an era where every one was taken care of.

Flame on.




45Ron is right Mark, and to repeat what he said, these arguments were made in the eighties. They were wrong then and your points are wrong now. I would be interested to know where you took your economics classes. I trust almost no college or universirty in this day and age to promote anything but far left ideology.

Labor Unions are to blame pure and simple for the demise of American manufacturing. You CANNOT pay assembly line workers $30 per hour and provide them with cradle to the grave health care and expect them to turn a profit. In your economics class did you touch on market correction in a free and open market? This is simply what is happening again, or the way I like to put it "stage two" with stage one having taken place in the eighties. Manufacturers simply CANNOT stay in business and cater to the demands of Labor Unions. The market will not bear the high labor price tag of union workers, so it corrects itself by exporting manufacturing overseas.

I own a small business and when union guys find out I'm non-union they are perplexed at how I can work non union, they are brainwashed.

You CANNOT buy a decent home built by the unions anymore because the labor rate is so outrageously high for union tradesmen that the shortcuts must be made in
a. Materials
b. Workmanship.

I have a Union Carpenter buddy whom is not only proud of the mantra "hack and don't look back." But boasts of banging up a 3,000 sq ft home in 5 days. Five days? To frame a 3k sq ft house? The Union Carpenters can BS themselves all day about how good and fast they are but let me tell you, you cannot do a top notch job in five days. To make it worse, the POS final product they provide, is unaffordable by most.

The likes of Jimmy Hoffa and others have ruined the labor force in this country. Not "elitists" not "Evil Republicans" but Unions.

Again, unions do two things. Punish good management and reward bad workers.

In ten years I doubt you will see many labor unions in operation, they are falling apart at the seams. That is the best thing that could happen to the American economy.

Union Labor sucks.



Amen brother ......look at detroit the unions have damn near killed the American auto ind.
also every union guy I have ever seen is lazy ....and they are always on TV saying, this is what a guy said on TV one night about two years ago " how can I raise a family on $20 bucks an hour".....are you kidden me there are single mothers out there bringing up a family working for $5 an hour at a fast food joint....while this guy has such a hard time bringing up a family only working for $20 bucks an hour...while this guy is driving to an from work in a $40,000 truck
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 4:34:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
If you're a worker in a union, you're on the right end of the situation.



Nah. Being a non-union worker in an open shop is the right end of that situation. No union dues and still get union pay! Screw that union!

Ron,

Great post. Very Libertarian-ish as well.
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