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Posted: 8/2/2005 5:42:25 PM EDT
Pretty sure of the answer already, but this fella wants to drive 262 miles to my house to buy a rifle....He's in PA and I'm in NY.
I don't think this is legal and with the price of fuel it doesn't make economic sense, in fact the whole deal is suspicious after having previously indicating that I would FedEx the rifle to a 01 FFL.
What say you?
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 6:28:59 PM EDT
262 miles round trip? You must be asking a good price for your rifle!
It does sound kinda suspicious but heck...maybe the person just likes driving
I say if you dont like the way it's going, tell him no dice and move on.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 7:43:21 PM EDT
Not Legal, Unless he is a resident of the same state you reside in!
Who Knows he may be a NY resident that just has a weekend place in PA!
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:37:36 PM EDT
sure it's legal, if after going to your house you both go to an FFL and have him fill out a 4473 and get NICS run on him
but no FFL means no face to face for residents of different states
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:45:04 AM EDT
Danger Will Robinson Danger
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 4:26:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 4:33:07 AM EDT by fp1201]

Originally Posted By ChuckyT: 262 miles round trip?
No, thate's each way, and there's no great price or anything specail about the rifle

Originally Posted By sharky30:
sure it's legal, if after going to your house you both go to an FFL and have him fill out a 4473 and get NICS run on him
but no FFL means no face to face for residents of different states

Originally posted By: Phil_A_Steen
Danger Will Robinson Danger



My thoughts exactly.
No sale!

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:34:59 AM EDT
Just to flesh out this topic, I've been doing a bit of research on this. According to NYS law Article 265.40, it is OK for a NYS resident to buy a rifle or shotgun in a neighboring state:

265.40 Purchase of rifles and/or shotguns in contiguous states.
Definitions. As used in this act:
1. "Contiguous state" shall mean any state having any portion of its
border in common with a portion of the border of the state of New York;
2. All other terms herein shall be given the meaning prescribed in
Public Law 90-618 known as the "Gun Control Act of l968" (18 U.S.C.
921).
It shall be lawful for a person or persons residing in this state, to
purchase or otherwise obtain a rifle and/or shotgun in a contiguous
state, and to receive or transport such rifle and/or shotgun into this
state; provided, however, such person is otherwise eligible to possess a
rifle and/or shotgun under the laws of this state.


I briefly looked through the PA laws, and couldn't find a similar provision and , looking at the Gun Control Act of 1968, it appears that it is not legal, unless it's from a Will or something:

922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful --

(1) for any person --

...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;


So, it's possible that it may be legal in some states, but the laws seems to conflict. It does sure look like it puts the seller in a tough position. The GCA seems to be reasonable in that it doesn't make the seller a criminal if the buyer lies about his state of residence or something like that. It's probably safest to go through an FFL in any case, but not necessarily a legal requirement, at least by what I'm seeing.

Of course, IANAL, so if someone wants to point out any errors, please do so. I'd really like to know how all this stuff works.

Mike
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:38:55 AM EDT
mchasal, the issue is actually governed by Federal law, which prohibits delivery of a firearm by any person to a resident of another state. There is an exception for sales of long guns by FFLs to non-residents.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:47:17 AM EDT
Ok, Phil_A_Steen, I think the GCA paragraph I posted covers what you're talking about. So, I'm curious, since the NYS (& several other state) laws have a provision that allows this. It appears that the State law is invalid because it is superseded by the federal law. Not trying to get into any State's rights issues here, but it seems odd that there would be a State law on the books that is not actually legal, but maybe I'm giving the legislature way too much credit here. It just seems that it's bordering on entrapment or something similar. A NYS resident wants to buy a gun in Vermont, looks up the law which says it's OK, goes and buys the gun and brings it home and is risking getting brought up on a Federal offense!

Or am I misinterpreting the state law or something?

Mike
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 9:12:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 9:44:47 AM EDT by Phil_A_Steen]
In non-legalistic terms (too lazy to google for the cites):

Federal law permits:

- An individual to sell a rifle or pistol to a resident of the same state
- A dealer to sell a rifle or pistol to an individual resident of the same state
- A rifle (not a pistol) to an individual resident of another state if and but only if the individual's state of residency permits purchases of rifles by its residents in another state.

Prior to the FOPA of 1986, only sales in contiguous states were allowed (originally part of the 1968 GCA), so states like NY have artifact laws on the books permitting purchases in contiguous states. Other states have post FOPA laws that permit purchases of rifles by its residents in any state.

The ATF's official position on the federal law is that if the laws of State X allow a resident to purchase a rifle in a contiguous state, it is also legal under Federal law for a dealer in any other state (even a non-contiguous state) to sell a rifle to a resident of State X.

(Rifle as used above includes any long arm, i.e., rifle or shotgun. NFA weapons are treated the same as pistols under the above rules.)

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 9:18:14 AM EDT
ok so basically since NYS law permits a resident to purchase a rifle in any contiguous state, and federal law permits the sale of a rifle to a resident of another state who is allowed to purchase a firearm in another state, it would be legal for a NY resident to purchase a rifle in PA and bring it back to NY?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 9:44:10 AM EDT
OK, I got unlazy, here is the relevant cite:



18 USC 922(b)

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver . . . (3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States) . . .


Link Posted: 8/3/2005 9:45:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JayJay4735:
ok so basically since NYS law permits a resident to purchase a rifle in any contiguous state, and federal law permits the sale of a rifle to a resident of another state who is allowed to purchase a firearm in another state, it would be legal for a NY resident to purchase a rifle in PA and bring it back to NY?



Yes.

A NY resident could also purchase rifle in Florida or Texas.

A NY resident cannot purchase a rifle in NJ, due to the NJ law requiring an FID card.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:03:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Originally Posted By JayJay4735:
ok so basically since NYS law permits a resident to purchase a rifle in any contiguous state, and federal law permits the sale of a rifle to a resident of another state who is allowed to purchase a firearm in another state, it would be legal for a NY resident to purchase a rifle in PA and bring it back to NY?



Yes.

A NY resident could also purchase rifle in Florida or Texas.

A NY resident cannot purchase a rifle in NJ, due to the NJ law requiring an FID card.



Only from an FFL, Not a private sale, Correct?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:13:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 10:14:39 AM EDT by rkbar15]

Originally Posted By garr:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Originally Posted By JayJay4735:
ok so basically since NYS law permits a resident to purchase a rifle in any contiguous state, and federal law permits the sale of a rifle to a resident of another state who is allowed to purchase a firearm in another state, it would be legal for a NY resident to purchase a rifle in PA and bring it back to NY?



Yes.

A NY resident could also purchase rifle in Florida or Texas.

A NY resident cannot purchase a rifle in NJ, due to the NJ law requiring an FID card.



Only from an FFL, Not a private sale, Correct?



Yes that is correct. Under NYS law you can legally transfer long guns or handguns (with a pistol license) in a private transfer with another NYS resident as long as the other party is not a prohibited person under either state or federal law. You are also prohibited from transferring a firearm in a private transfer at a NY gun show. The above may not apply in NYC or anywhere else that has a local law that is more restrictive then NYS law.

NJ does issue NJ FID's to out-of-state residents so you could transfer a long gun from a NJ FFL as a NYS residnt if you obtained a NJ FID. Why anyone would want to do that is another question.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:58:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 10:58:55 AM EDT by garr]


You are also prohibited from transferring a firearm in a private transfer at a NY gun show.
.



SO, If you are a NYS Pistol permit holder you cannot do a private transfer at a NY gun show, If you are correct about this I am sure alot of guys have been violating the law!
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:29:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garr:


You are also prohibited from transferring a firearm in a private transfer at a NY gun show.
.



SO, If you are a NYS Pistol permit holder you cannot do a private transfer at a NY gun show, If you are correct about this I am sure alot of guys have been violating the law!



If there is an exception for pistol license holders I'm not aware of it. It would be nice if I'm incorrect.

assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?cl=44&a=108


S 897. Sale of a firearm, rifle or shotgun at a gun show. 1. A
national instant criminal background check shall be conducted and no
person shall sell or transfer a firearm, rifle or shotgun at a gun show,
except in accordance with the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 922(t).
2. No person shall offer or agree to sell or transfer a firearm, rifle
or shotgun to another person at a gun show and transfer or deliver such
firearm, rifle or shotgun to such person or person acting on his or her
behalf thereafter at a location other than the gun show for the purpose
of evading or avoiding compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922(t).
3. Any person who knowingly violates any of the provisions of this
section shall be guilty of a class A misdemeanor punishable as provided
for in the penal law.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:58:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rkbar15:

S 897. Sale of a firearm, rifle or shotgun at a gun show. 1. A
national instant criminal background check shall be conducted and no
person shall sell or transfer a firearm, rifle or shotgun at a gun show,
except in accordance with the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 922(t).
2. No person shall offer or agree to sell or transfer a firearm, rifle
or shotgun to another person at a gun show and transfer or deliver such
firearm, rifle or shotgun to such person or person acting on his or her
behalf thereafter at a location other than the gun show for the purpose
of evading or avoiding compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922(t).
3. Any person who knowingly violates any of the provisions of this
section shall be guilty of a class A misdemeanor punishable as provided
for in the penal law.



That's the most crappily drafted piece of legislation I have ever read. Thanks RKBAR for bringing it to my attention.

If you read paragraph 1, it says a person cannot make a transfer of a firearm, rifle or shotgun at a gunshow "except in accordance with the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 922(t)."

922(t) only applies to FFLs. So a private individual, who does not do a "brady" check at a gun show, has complied with 922(t):

(t)(1) Beginning on the date that is 30 days after the Attorney General notifies licensees under section 103(d) of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act that the national instant criminal background check system is established, a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not transfer a firearm to any other person who is not licensed under this chapter . . .
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:30:17 PM EDT
P-A-S, if you think that part is crappy you need to read the rest of the chapter. Couple that with the fact that the NYSP Legal Division doesn't dispense legal advice to the public and the NY AG's office does not provide legal opinions except to .gov agencies. This makes it all but impossible to know what some of these these statutes actually mean for the average person or how to comply with them.

To confuse the issue even further if you have a NYS Pistol license that is NICS certified you are not subject to a NICS check under federal law. Nor are you required to execute a 4473 transfer in a private intrastate transaction.



Link Posted: 8/4/2005 4:38:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 4:40:52 PM EDT by zeekh]

Originally Posted By rkbar15:Nor are you required to execute a 4473 transfer in a private intrastate transaction.


You don't need to execute a 4473 for a private sale anyway......do you?

ETA: BTW FP1201 What are you selling?
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 4:50:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zeekh:

Originally Posted By rkbar15:Nor are you required to execute a 4473 transfer in a private intrastate transaction.


You don't need to execute a 4473 for a private sale anyway......do you?

ETA: BTW FP1201 What are you selling?



No as long as the transfer does not take place at a NY gunshow or in the vicinity of the gunshow.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:48:53 AM EDT
what kind of rifle are you selling?
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:54:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By zeekh:

Originally Posted By rkbar15:Nor are you required to execute a 4473 transfer in a private intrastate transaction.


You don't need to execute a 4473 for a private sale anyway......do you?

ETA: BTW FP1201 What are you selling?

Hi-cap Romainian WSAR

Non-dealers including holders of C&R licenses are not required to execute 4473's for the sale of their firearms. Also on a footnote: 03 (C&R) holders cannot register or use the NICS system under that licenses.

Really it's the bordering states issue that was confusing me the most. If the buyer wants to buy from me (a non-dealer) the sale must be conducted thru a 01 dealer.
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