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Posted: 10/10/2005 2:12:54 PM EDT
No satire intended, please don't take it that way.  I talked big about being curious about the ...here it comes....Militia.  I know very little and I can assume there are some others here that are just as curious.  So, here's my questions as I can think of em.

1.  Independent of each other or does the rank/organization cross state lines to a higher organized militia.

2.  Who's in charge?  Who forms such a thing and how do you figure out who tells who what to do?

3.  Are you considered a Not for profit organization?  Do you/can you operate as such? (Tax breaks and the like).  Does your budget come directly from donations or do you have other sources (Fed/state Grants, bake sales...)

4.  Just how "anti" government are you?  I understand that you are not anarchists looking to overthrow "the man" just for the hell of it.  Does your organization disagree with every faction of our government, or just certain people/ideals ?

5.  Can anyone join?  What if a government official, police officer, or soldier wanted to be involved?



That should start the conversation off well.  I know I threw some humor in there, but I am actually interested.

Thanks
-Mac


Oh, and before someone else tries to hijack this as a joke....
<­BR>

BOOBIES! (there it's done, now back on topic you!)
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 2:28:51 PM EDT
1. There are lots of various organizations, but we subscribe to a cellular approach so as to avoid corruption or other problems with a few personnel leading to major organizational problems. Leadership needs to be on a local level so that there can be trust and cohesion. At  regional and national levels there should be no head honcho, but there needs to be coordination between team leaders. To very simply answer your question, each outfit is independent, but hopefully is smart enough to coordinate to a certain extent with others.

2. Each man is in charge of himself. During actual training and operations, a leader will be chosen by the unit members based upon qualification to accomplish the immediate task.

3. We are not a corporation. We basically fund ourselves. Most of us invest a significant amount of our earnings into our equipment, training, and supplies. More donations would be nice.

4. There are countless positions taken by individual members. I am among the most anti-government people I know involved in the militia--I AM an anarchist(NOT in the goofy lets break crap way). As a whole, the purpose of the militia is to protect the life, liberty, and property of the people. One of the widely support avenues of doing this is to defend the Constitution against encroachment.

I don't have time to write any more now, I'll finish shortly.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 2:33:19 PM EDT
Damn PCR,

Sounds like you need to attend an event. You sure are interested, or trolling like a greedy tunaboat captian. If you're really into it, I'm sure the boys would take you for a snipe hunt.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 2:47:28 PM EDT
who tells *whom*


Link Posted: 10/10/2005 2:47:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spyda:
Damn PCR,

Sounds like you need to attend an event. You sure are interested, or trolling like a greedy tunaboat captian. If you're really into it, I'm sure the boys would take you for a snipe hunt.



Just trying to help the topic along...I bitched enough in the other thread, I figured I'd make good on my statement that I would be open to a conversation concerning this topic.  Lots of people seem to want to talk about it, why not provide a thread where the topic can be discussed?


Call me a troll if you like, doesn't mean we'll be swappin' spit in the shower till the wee hours of the morning!

Oh, and as far as I understand it, a troll is someone who tries to push people's buttons on purpose, in order to pick a fight.  Was never my intention here or anywhere else on this board.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 3:17:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PCR-00:


1.  Independent of each other or does the rank/organization cross state lines to a higher organized militia.

Rank is based upon verified skill level = skill qualification

2.  Who's in charge?  Who forms such a thing and how do you figure out who tells who what to do?

Command is the standard incident response used by emergency agencies.

3.  Are you considered a Not for profit organization? Common law organization Lex non-scripta, Do you/can you operate as such? (Tax breaks and the like). NO Does your budget come directly from donations or do you have other sources (Fed/state Grants, bake sales...) Individuals are responsible for thier own finance


4.  Just how "anti" government are you?  I understand that you are not anarchists looking to overthrow "the man" just for the hell of it.  Does your organization disagree with every faction of our government, or just certain people/ideals ?

In America We the People are the authority and creator of all government, We the people judge both fact and LAW.

5.  Can anyone join?  What if a government official, police officer, or soldier wanted to be involved?
All it takes is a oath of intent, there are active duty military and police active in the organiztion


1.0 STATEMENT OF ETHICS

It is the duty of the citizen’s militia to protect and defend the unalienable Rights of all members of the community. Under no circumstances will the militia of [state] tolerate those who advocate acts of criminal violence, terrorism, racism or a change away from our republican form of government; nor will it support any specific political party or candidate, nor espouse any particular religious denomination or doctrine. All members must understand the duties and obligation of both citizens and government under the [Constitution].

1.1 MISSION STATEMENT

The members of the [state] unorganized militia shall ever stand, as have our Forefathers before us, first to God, from Whom we acknowledge the Authority of all Rights, and all the blessings of governments and to our native soil, [state]. We therefore pledge:

To promote and defend the unalienable God-given rights of all citizens, regardless of race, sex or national origin, as is expressed in the [state] [Constitution] and the Bill of Rights of the [U.S. Constitution].

To promote and defend the principles of just government bequeathed to us by our forefathers to whit, That the principle of the Tenth Amendment shall stand inviolate, as history has shown that the greatest system of checks and balances exists with the people and their States to check the powers accrued by the federal government. That the integrity of the courts, be they local, State or federal, shall remain uncontemptable providing that they shall respect and uphold the rights of the citizens of [state], including but not limited to, upholding the due process of law, and to preserve the right of trial by jury and to obtain immediate judicial review of cases wherein abuse of basic [Constitutional] rights are questioned.

That all power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their Life, Liberty, and Property; for the advancement of those ends they have at all times an unalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform, or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper.

That government being instituted for the common benefit, the doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.

That all just government is servant of the people who have instituted it, that the people of [state] should never by force nor coercion be obliged to anything styled as "law" which has not been promulgated by their duly elected representatives, nor any as may be promulgated by them to bear conflict to the rights of the people, so that no government shall be made master of the people of [state].

To promote and propagate the militia of [state] as a well regulated, (trained and prepared) organization knowledgeable in historical precedent and current affairs, that is composed of common citizens.

To develop a cohesive and competent command structure.

To train our members in the many disciplines necessary to the function of the militia as a whole and to the members individually.

To educate our members in areas of history, law and principle as compiled in the experience and records of our forefathers.

To keep informed our members, and all citizens of events Local, State, National and global that threaten to imperil our traditional Constitutional rights, or such as may imperil the sovereignty of our Nation by the undue influence of those who have forsaken their loyalty to our Nation, and to the principles upon which it was founded. To repel foreign aggression and invasions, by preparing and training for defense and by our encouraging and showing reason why all citizens should stand stoutly against socialism, fascism, communism, humanism, and all forms of tyranny.

To suppress domestic insurrections and violence, by supporting and assisting the appropriate Officers of the Law in upholding and maintaining law and order in accordance with such Local, State, and Federal statutes and laws that do not present jeopardy to our God given rights as acknowledged in the [state] and [U.S. Constitutions].


2.0 DUTY AND CODE OF CONDUCT

1. I am a citizen of the State of [State], serving in the unorganized militia. I am prepared to give my life to guard and protect my homeland, our common law rights and liberties and our way of life. This service is a duty of my citizenship.

2. I will keep and maintain the uniform, equipment, and weaponry necessary to perform the duties prescribed for the militia of [State] and will be prepared to mobilize quickly.

3. I will never forget that I am a citizen of the State of [State], and through her, of these United States. I am responsible for my actions and dedicated to the principles that made this country free. I will strive to lead an exemplary life and never, by action or statement, bring discredit to the militia, my country, or my fellow countrymen.

4. In all cases, I shall endeavor to inform and urge all citizens to return to the Constitutional Republic our forefathers envisioned.

5. I will stand by or come to the aid of my brothers of the militia with whatever means necessary and without question or concern for my own well-being to ensure due process of law as stated in the Constitution.

6. I will never misuse my position in the militia for financial or personal gain, nor will I engage in any activity subversive to the militia.

7. I will never surrender of my own free will. If, in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they have the means to resist.

8. If am captured, I will continue to resist by all means possible. I will make every effort to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

9. Should I become a prisoner of war, I am bound to give only my name, rank, and date of birth. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to the United States and its citizens or harmful to their continued struggle for liberty and freedom.

10. Should I become a prisoner of war, I will keep my faith with my fellow prisoners, and accept no favors from the enemy. I will give no information nor take part in any action that might be harmful to my comrades. If I am a senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will support them in every way.

2.1 GENERAL GUIDELINES

General Membership:

General membership in the militia of [State] is open to all lawful citizens of the State of [State] at the age of 18-70. There shall be no discrimination due to, race, sex, national origin or physical characteristics. Membership is voluntary.

All prospective members shall be required to give their name, date of birth, address, contact information, next of kin, and general information detailing prior military experience and/or other such skills as may be utilized by the militia.

All such information shall be kept private under all circumstances, and destroyed in the event of crisis; And shall be used for no other purpose than the internal business of the unit.

All members will be required to pass a ninety day probationary period after which the are required to subscribe to the Code of Conduct and swear or affirm the membership oath.

Link Posted: 10/10/2005 3:22:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 3:24:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 3:31:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 3:32:29 PM EDT
Ok, another question that sits in my mind... What happens if/when the local militia decide that it is time to act and rise up to make change.  

What if the people disagree with your cause, lotta gun toters out there that may not follow your cause.  Those people, along with the PD and National guard may have a VERY different view of what you are doing.  Some may accuse you of being terrorists (It's happened before).  That could bring FBI swat down on you too.

Curious, Many have been wrong before, how are you sure that you are not choosing the side of the minority?  How do you keep yourselves from being viewed as the bad guys?  Something I've learned via my own mistakes is, that just because I feel strongly about something doesn't mean I'm right.

Again, and I hope that I won't need to put this byline in everything I state, I am just asking questions, things I have thought of as I don't totally understand the topic.  Nothing I say in this thread is intended to be an attack.

Link Posted: 10/10/2005 3:53:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OdT:
Are there ties to any other organizations? (Fraternities or formal Military commands for example)
In general no there are no ties

Is prior military a plus or a minus upon "enlistment".... or however it's worded?
Since rank is skill based military experience is generally a plus

Is 37 the drop off age for enlistment, as it is for many other similar types of organizations/jobs?
The primary concept is to develope a instructor cadre, so physical disability has grade qualifiers to encourage those with training knowledge to train people, doesnt matter if your blind and in a wheel chair you can still train people or operate communications.

In protecting the Constitution, what other types of things are concerns of organized malitia, beside protection from tyranny and preservation of personal freedoms? More specificly for example, what about taxes, government spending and the federal reserves.... any interests, training, education or activities in that direction?
Education and training is primary, it includes the history and origins of our laws and the enforcement of them in the spirit in which they are intended

What about a replacement government and it's typical duties, should the SHTF for real.... are preperations made and training done for that stuff too?Washington state used the militia as the governing authority before and during the first constitution, it was deleted in the second unrattified constitution of 1879.

I ask for a few reasons..... one being that in much survivalist talk, stash and skill of weapons always seems to be in the forefront of the subject matter..... but then it often falls short, at least in my own listening. I don't mean to lump survialism and the militia together, but I am deliberately showing that I don't know much about either.... at least not formally.

But what about these other duties, assuming the 'battles and war' are won? Then what? Does the malitia intend to have a hand in these areas too? Law enforcement? Education? Free Trade? Monetary system? etc, etc, etc....
Above listed subjects are covered in the Washington state constitution as well as the constitution for the united state of America and training is available in how to apply them locally.

Just curious.... zero flames intended.




I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of
the society but the people themselves; and if we think
them not enlightened enough to exercise their control
with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take
it from them, but to inform their discretion.  
Thomas Jefferson

Link Posted: 10/10/2005 3:59:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
Ok, another question that sits in my mind... What happens if/when the local militia decide that it is time to act and rise up to make change.  

What if the people disagree with your cause, lotta gun toters out there that may not follow your cause.  Those people, along with the PD and National guard may have a VERY different view of what you are doing.  Some may accuse you of being terrorists (It's happened before).  That could bring FBI swat down on you too.

Curious, Many have been wrong before, how are you sure that you are not choosing the side of the minority?  How do you keep yourselves from being viewed as the bad guys?  Something I've learned via my own mistakes is, that just because I feel strongly about something doesn't mean I'm right.

Again, and I hope that I won't need to put this byline in everything I state, I am just asking questions, things I have thought of as I don't totally understand the topic.  Nothing I say in this thread is intended to be an attack.



Mac, what is with all the apologetic stuff?  Nothing you are saying is attacky, you are just asking for info...  I've never seen you so much like a beaten woman, "please don't hit me again, I promise I won't smile with an open mouth anymore..."

I think you are a pod person and need to be killed for the safety of the planet.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 4:04:17 PM EDT
Could you outline for me a circumstance where you would feel the need to "give your life" or "defend" the constitution other than invasion by a foreign enemy?

I noted with interest the rule about not averting a republican government. Could you outline for me exactly why the services of a militia would be required absent such a goal, and explain how the militia is responsible to a republican government?

Good thread.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 4:04:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
Ok, another question that sits in my mind... What happens if/when the local militia decide that it is time to act and rise up to make change.  

Are you aware only 3% of the population of the American colonies fought in the war for independence, the war started 1775 april 19th Lexington green, the declaration came 15 months later 1776 july 4th

What if the people disagree with your cause, lotta gun toters out there that may not follow your cause.  Those people, along with the PD and National guard may have a VERY different view of what you are doing.  Some may accuse you of being terrorists (It's happened before).  That could bring FBI swat down on you too.
Self defense does not require a favorable majority opinion

Curious, Many have been wrong before, how are you sure that you are not choosing the side of the minority?  How do you keep yourselves from being viewed as the bad guys?  Something I've learned via my own mistakes is, that just because I feel strongly about something doesn't mean I'm right.
The militia has already been demonized as lawless rebels when in fact it's cause is that of peace through justice based purely upon the natural law, tyrants are rebels only.

Again, and I hope that I won't need to put this byline in everything I state, I am just asking questions, things I have thought of as I don't totally understand the topic.  Nothing I say in this thread is intended to be an attack.






Printer-Friendly Version

The Declaration of Independence: A Transcription

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

   He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
   He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
   He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
   He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
   He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
   He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
   He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
   He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
   He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
   He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
   He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
   He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
   He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
   For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
   For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
   For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
   For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
   For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
   For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
   For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
   For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
   For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
   He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
   He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
   He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
   He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
   He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 4:21:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MacLean:
Could you outline for me a circumstance where you would feel the need to "give your life" or "defend" the constitution other than invasion by a foreign enemy?
Article Section. 4.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.

It doesnt matter whether it is a single robber with a gun or a government with the worlds most powerful military force, crime is criminal and the law must be enforced or there is no point of law. Life is more important than a piece of property and the mere loss is no reason for war but the right to that life and the necessary control of that piece of property is worth as many lives as is necessary to defend it.


I noted with interest the rule about not averting a republican government. Could you outline for me exactly why the services of a militia would be required absent such a goal, and explain how the militia is responsible to a republican government?

Government is a legal fiction created by man to best effect service to man, at no time should the legal fiction created become superior to it's creator to effect any other purpose than which it was created serve, when government become destructive to their creator it is necessary for the people{militia} to alter or abolish it.

Good thread.




War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 4:52:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gunchyck:
Mac, what is with all the apologetic stuff?  Nothing you are saying is attacky, you are just asking for info...  I've never seen you so much like a beaten woman, "please don't hit me again, I promise I won't smile with an open mouth anymore..."

I think you are a pod person and need to be killed for the safety of the planet.



Been my experience that if you don't make SURE that people know you aren't trying to be an asshole...they get sandy and the thread goes to shit.  
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 4:52:59 PM EDT
The Declaration of Independence (From England).

When was the last time we really had to worry about England, 1812?

If TSHTF I would be more worried about "The Union" splitting along North-South lines...again.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:06:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2005 5:07:44 PM EDT by PCR-00]

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
Ok, another question that sits in my mind... What happens if/when the local militia decide that it is time to act and rise up to make change.  

Are you aware only 3% of the population of the American colonies fought in the war for independence, the war started 1775 april 19th Lexington green, the declaration came 15 months later 1776 july 4th
Doesn't surprise me, but that doesn't mean it will work out this time

What if the people disagree with your cause, lotta gun toters out there that may not follow your cause.  Those people, along with the PD and National guard may have a VERY different view of what you are doing.  Some may accuse you of being terrorists (It's happened before).  That could bring FBI swat down on you too.
Self defense does not require a favorable majority opinion
My point being, wouldn't it be a pretty short fight in that situation, one with you guys ending up dead or in pound me in the ass-prison?

Curious, Many have been wrong before, how are you sure that you are not choosing the side of the minority?  How do you keep yourselves from being viewed as the bad guys?  Something I've learned via my own mistakes is, that just because I feel strongly about something doesn't mean I'm right.
The militia has already been demonized as lawless rebels when in fact it's cause is that of peace through justice based purely upon the natural law, tyrants are rebels only.
Again, just because you feel strongly that you are right, does that ultimately make you right?









ETA: In certain cases, you rising to violence, can be a violation of the law (most likely would be), how are you sure you can win?
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:28:54 PM EDT
Losing is better than having to live with a guilty conscience.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:33:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SARS:
Losing is better than having to live with a guilty conscience.



OK, I can go along with that line of thinking.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:35:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2005 5:36:51 PM EDT by PCR-00]
OK, 'nother thought, It would appear (and I could be wrong) that you militia types look down on those of us that may not be....for lack of a better term fanatical about the militia.  Is this so?  If so, why?  Are we not the very ones you are fighting for?

ETA: It would also seem that you see us as traitors for not going along with your line of thinking.  Will we be shot for being "traitors" ?
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:37:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2005 5:42:03 PM EDT by SARS]
If things are bad enough that you're willing to fight to correct them, they must not be that pleasant to live through. If a law is unjust and unconstitutional it is not just our right, it's our DUTY to resist it. Hopefully, non-violent resistance will suffice. Unforunately, I am not very optimistic that we will not have to act sometime within the next decade or two against either foreign or domestic enemies.

Sometimes we get exasperated that you do not value liberty more than security. It is especially distressing when it us folks that at least have the common sense to own tools useful for defending themselves that are unwilling to ensure that their rights to life, liberty, and property are secure from abuse. I cannot speak for others, but I would only view you as traitors if you acted against us when we were justified in doing something. For example, if we were resisting the rounding up of an ethnic group (say people of Japanese descent) and you either harmed us or gave information to someone that would harm us, it would clearly be considered aggression.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:38:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
ETA: In certain cases, you rising to violence, can be a violation of the law (most likely would be), how are you sure you can win?



Can you show me the law you are speaking of, and who is the judge of that law again ?

12 electors comprise a jury, the decision of that jury can not be questioned,


Amendment VII

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:41:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
ETA: In certain cases, you rising to violence, can be a violation of the law (most likely would be), how are you sure you can win?



Can you show me the law you are speaking of, and who is the judge of that law again ?

12 electors comprise a jury, the decision of that jury can not be questioned,


Amendment VII

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.




Shoot a cop during your uprising.....see how that turns out.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:43:55 PM EDT
If he is acting outside of the law he was merely a criminal that happened to have a badge. If when the Japanese citizens here were being rounded up someone shot some LEOs or mil it would've been totally justified. Same if someone had popped one of those goons gathering firearms in New Orleans. It is not desired, but if they are willing to act against their oath to uphold the Constitution, they are truly criminals that must be stopped.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:47:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SARS:
If he is acting outside of the law he was merely a criminal that happened to have a badge. If when the Japanese citizens here were being rounded up someone shot some LEOs or mil it would've been totally justified. Same if someone had popped one of those goons gathering firearms in New Orleans. It is not desired, but if they are willing to act against their oath to uphold the Constitution, they are truly criminals that must be stopped.



All depends on if they believe in your cause...Are you going to hand out leaflets in order to let everyone know what you are fighting for, before the uprising?  Cop sees a bunch of armed guys marching on a .gov office, are they going to know/care?  
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:54:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
Shoot a cop during your uprising.....see how that turns out.


Must you judge without facts or evidence ? is the peace officer executing the duties of his office or is he a criminal operating under the color of law ?

Shooting a cop is an act of war under the rules of land warfare but so is the shedding of innocent blood or depriving a citizen due process of law.

Do you know why the "stamp act" was violently resisted ? it's a big subject but for our purposes the militarized police kicked in doors to check for stamps, stamp or not they looted the homes and businesses and killed anyone who resisted, sound familiar ?


If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget ye were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:08:00 PM EDT
Ms. Clinton wins 8 years in the White House,

She signs national gun ban laws. They pass ammo taxes to insure no large stashes in civilian hands. The democrats use imminent domain and safety concerns to shut down shooting ranges. Gun and ammo makers are put under lawsuit pressure to squeeze them out of business. Etc, etc.

It's not fantasy, California has see it happen to them.  Yet an estimated 80% chose to ignore the law to register their weapons. Imo, that scared the grabbers out of going house to house. But that won't last forever. And this is just one serious issue we're familier with.

Border control, cost of health care, loss of jobs overseas, to say nothing of an attack causing mass destruction to both national economy and infrastructure, are just a few of the events that could cause a deep turn away from freedom. I see no harm in being prepared.

I'm sure some folks snickered at New Orleans people who stored 90 days of food, water and of course the means to protect it, before Katrina. They're not laughing any more.

Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:09:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
Shoot a cop during your uprising.....see how that turns out.


Must you judge without facts or evidence ? is the peace officer executing the duties of his office or is he a criminal operating under the color of law ?

Shooting a cop is an act of war under the rules of land warfare but so is the shedding of innocent blood or depriving a citizen due process of law.

Do you know why the "stamp act" was violently resisted ? it's a big subject but for our purposes the militarized police kicked in doors to check for stamps, stamp or not they looted the homes and businesses and killed anyone who resisted, sound familiar ?


If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget ye were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams



A lot people don't see the tyranny at the level that you proclaim.  A lot of people feel that the problems can be solved via the standard rules of government (voting, etc). I wonder how much you plan to actually succeed.  My feeling is that it would be chalked up to a group of people who had good beliefs but bad execution and got themselved dead.  Story at 11
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:11:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spyda:
Ms. Clinton wins 8 years in the White House,

She signs national gun ban laws. They pass ammo taxes to insure no large stashes in civilian hands. The democrats use imminent domain and safety concerns to shut down shooting ranges. Gun and ammo makers are put under lawsuit pressure to squeeze them out of business. Etc, etc.

It's not fantasy, California has see it happen to them.  Yet an estimated 80% chose to ignore the law to register their weapons. Imo, that scared the grabbers out of going house to house. But that won't last forever. And this is just one serious issue we're familier with.

Border control, cost of health care, loss of jobs overseas, to say nothing of an attack causing mass destruction to both national economy and infrastructure, are just a few of the events that could cause a deep turn away from freedom. I see no harm in being prepared.

I'm sure some folks snickered at New Orleans people who stored 90 days of food, water and of course the means to protect it, before Katrina. They're not laughing any more.




I see no problem in being prepared for the worst.  I also agree that things have gone south.  I also see a light at the end of the tunnel that says it can be reversed.  'Course, I'm an optimist.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:28:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
A lot people don't see the tyranny at the level that you proclaim.  A lot of people feel that the problems can be solved via the standard rules of government (voting, etc). I wonder how much you plan to actually succeed.  My feeling is that it would be chalked up to a group of people who had good beliefs but bad execution and got themselved dead.  Story at 11



Your underestimating the design of the organization, the quality that over-comes numerical and technical superiority.

However, my personel opinion is that this nation is approaching economic collapse complete with bank failures, that means people that believe they are well protected in a disverisifed portfolio will become indigence, homeless upon the streets witout food or water shelter transportation etc.

It happened after the crash of 1929, people with gold coins in the bank became as poor as any bum.

Natural disaster (earthquake/eruption) invasion is beyond our control all we can do is prepare for them but government tyranny is under our control and together we can solve the problem.

While we certainly comfort the afflicted, we must afflict the comfortable.


"If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." -
 --  Winston Churchill

Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:36:32 PM EDT
FWIW.........


United States Code (USC)

TITLE 10--ARMED FORCES

Section 311. Militia: composition and classes

 (a) The militia of the United States consists
of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age
and, except as provided in section 313 of title
32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have
made a declaration of intention to become, citi-
zens of the United States and of female citizens
of the United States who are commissioned of-
ficers of the National Guard.
 (b) The classes of the militia are--
   (1) the organized militia, which consists of
 the National Guard and the Naval Militia;
 and
   (2) the unorganized militia, which consists
 of the members of the militia who are not
 members of the National Guard or the Naval
 Militia.



Section 312. Militia duty: exemptions

 (a) The following persons are exempt from
militia duty:
   (1) The Vice President.
   (2) The judicial and executive officers of
 the United States, the several States and Ter-
 ritories, Puerto Rico, and the Canal Zone.
   (3) Members of the armed forces, except
 members who are not on active duty.
   (4) Customhouse clerks.
   (5) Persons employed by the United States
 in the transmission of mail.
   (6) Workers employed in armories, arse-
 nals, and naval shipyards of the United
 States.
   (7) Pilots on navigable waters.
   (8) Mariners in the sea service of a citizen
 of, or a merchant in, the United States.

 (b) A person who claims exemption because
of religious belief is exempt from militia duty
in a combatant capacity, if the conscientious
holding of that belief is established under such
regulations as the President may prescribe.
However, such a person is not exempt from mi-
litia duty that the President determines to be
noncombatant.






TITLE 32--NATIONAL GUARD

Section 313. Appointments and enlistments: age limitations

 (a) To be eligible for original enlistment in
the National Guard, a person must be at least
17 years of age and under 45, or under 64 years
of age and a former member of the Regular
Army, Regular Navy, Regular Air Force, or
Regular Marine Corps. To be eligible for reen-
listment, a person must be under 64 years of age.
 (b) To be eligible for appointment as an offi-
cer of the National Guard, a person must--
   (1) be a citizen of the United States; and
   (2) be at least 18 years of age and under 64.



Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:39:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:
FWIW.........


It is important to understand that congress does not create the militia.

details here MILITIA OF THE SEVERAL STATES
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:41:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:
FWIW.........
<SNIP>




In addition


RCW 38.04.030
Composition of the militia.

The militia of the state of Washington shall consist of all able bodied citizens of the United States and all other able bodied persons who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, residing within this state, who shall be more than eighteen years of age, and shall include all persons who are members of the national guard and the state guard, and said militia shall be divided into two classes, the organized militia and the unorganized militia.

RCW 38.08.050
Governor may order out unorganized militia.

In event of, or imminent danger of, war, insurrection, rebellion, invasion, tumult, riot, resistance to law or process or breach of the peace, if the governor shall have ordered into active service all of the available forces of the organized militia of Washington and shall consider them insufficient in number to properly accomplish the purpose, he or she may then in addition order out the unorganized militia or such portion thereof as he may deem necessary, and cause them to perform such military duty as the circumstances may require.


Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:42:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:
FWIW.........

United States Code (USC)

TITLE 10--ARMED FORCES

Section 311. Militia: composition and classes

 (a) The militia of the United States consists
of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age
and, except as provided in section 313 of title
32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have
made a declaration of intention to become, citi-
zens of the United States and of female citizens
of the United States who are commissioned of-
ficers of the National Guard.
 (b) The classes of the militia are--
   (1) the organized militia, which consists of
 the National Guard and the Naval Militia;
 and
   (2) the unorganized militia, which consists
 of the members of the militia who are not
 members of the National Guard or the Naval
 Militia.


<<SNIP>>



Don't missunderstand please.  My concern is not the militia.  It is the goals and organization of some militias.  Trying to get clear on that.  I have my questions and concerns.  Don't worry, I'm not some pinko commie....but for now, It's time to eat, I shall return to this either tonight or tomorrow.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:43:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:

Originally Posted By CavVet:
FWIW.........
<SNIP>




In addition


RCW 38.04.030
Composition of the militia.

The militia of the state of Washington shall consist of all able bodied citizens of the United States and all other able bodied persons who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, residing within this state, who shall be more than eighteen years of age, and shall include all persons who are members of the national guard and the state guard, and said militia shall be divided into two classes, the organized militia and the unorganized militia.

RCW 38.08.050
Governor may order out unorganized militia.

In event of, or imminent danger of, war, insurrection, rebellion, invasion, tumult, riot, resistance to law or process or breach of the peace, if the governor shall have ordered into active service all of the available forces of the organized militia of Washington and shall consider them insufficient in number to properly accomplish the purpose, he or she may then in addition order out the unorganized militia or such portion thereof as he may deem necessary, and cause them to perform such military duty as the circumstances may require.





Doesn't the governor have to recognize that particular unorganized militia as in fact a militia, and not a "insurrection, rebellion, invasion, tumult, riot, resistance to law or process or breach of the peace" ?
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:51:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2005 6:58:27 PM EDT by SARS]
Considering the rightful governor of Washington was deposed it's a moot point.

Edited because I can't type.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:55:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PCR-00:

Doesn't the governor have to recognize that particular unorganized militia as in fact a militia, and not a "insurrection, rebellion, invasion, tumult, riot, resistance to law or process or breach of the peace" ?



You mean the (for lack of a better predefined and accepted term) autonomous independent militia group?  

My only purpose was to point out that the unorganized militia is already covered in the RCWs, but then again I understand that your discussion isn't really directed to that facet.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:00:11 PM EDT
If the person we were acting against initiated hostile, criminal action we would be justified in defending ourselves and others against it. It would be imprudent to offensively begin striking targets without just provocation, however.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:02:35 PM EDT
Both of the scenarios outlined above should definaltely give any one of us pause I would think.

When they were rustling up firearms in LA I spoke with someone close to me about it and his reasoning was that since the Posse Comitatus Act had been suspended that there was in effect no constitution and that it was therefore justified in his eyes the stripping of arms of regular joes just trying to keep their families safe and property from harm. This was a person that would be doing that here if we were in the same situation in the PNW. Lets just say I could easily see how family members could turn against one another in just such a situation.

If that is acceptable to people I fear for our country and see a very real reason for an armed unorganized militia or citizens in the unorganized militia to be carrying an agenda and speaking about it whenever they get the chance.

I for one have great concerns after seeing the results of Ruby Ridge and Waco live on channel 5, then the AWB and then to watch the ultimate worst case scenario unfold in LA just floored me. I wonder what the militia members in that area were thinking when that stuff came down. I hope they were prepared and had alternate means of communication to organize.

Sorry for the thread drift....


Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:06:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
 My concern is not the militia.  It is the goals and organization of some militias.  Trying to get clear on that.  I have my questions and concerns.  .



Thats the difference between the National Militia Standards and isolated groups with different agendas, the militias of the several states have agreed to the National Standards with a mission statement, ethics and code of conduct and many of those have mutual protection agreements and independent communications with generic encryption.

One small group operating contrary to the public peace won't last long, but on the other hand the decentralized units operating according to the standards increase in strength if attacked.




When bad men combine, the good must associate else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle. -- Edmund Burke



Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:24:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bosifus:
I for one have great concerns after seeing the results of Ruby Ridge and Waco live on channel 5, then the AWB and then to watch the ultimate worst case scenario unfold in LA just floored me. I wonder what the militia members in that area were thinking when that stuff came down. I hope they were prepared and had alternate means of communication to organize.


Concerning LA, the militia i know there was working relief despite that their own homes were destroyed, while one was driving truck into areas where the people needed it most (note some drivers refused to go into the violent areas where-as militia truck drivers armed themselves and took the loads in} the other militia members were providing relief to the members that were working relief in the NO area, the Mississippi 20FF were really hit hard.

This proves the value of organization, and most important of all COMMUNICATIONS.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:29:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:46:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OdT:


The idea that an organized group of men/people with real training is appealing. Capable of the very best and the very worst at the same time..... but, it's a 'concept' at it's very best..... isn't it?

I guess I need more info.... or, I'll remain skeptical..... help me out!



It is more than a concept, the organized militia strecthes border to border and coast to coast.

Lets say the seattle area or coastal area is contaminated by radiation or biological weapon/pandemic, staying in your well provisioned home is not an option, you need to move the entire family that may include infants and special care patients, that means a tent in the woods will be insufficient, but you know from your LCR meet a dry side 42FF with a home already provisioned for occupancy four times normal, because not only is heated rooms with sanitation necessary but troop strength is also necessary, that why we advise people prepare their domociles first before caches and wildernes safe areas, but include communcations and organized alternate means of transportion, because it is likely roads will not be passable.

Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:27:09 PM EDT
What you say about the necessity of food is absolutely correct, OdT. In order for success in survival or war there needs to be a sound logistical base. Hunting and gathering will not prove adequate in the long run. We must be able to grow and raise food. That is truly the difference between watching our families starve to death and watching them be grow.

There is a misconception that all us militia types ever talk about is killing every damned thing in sight. Though that is a lot more fun to talk about, we also discuss other topics that are a lot more peaceful. Not only do we attempt to come up with alternative food plans and stores, we attempt to prepare to serve our families and communities in anyway possible to preserve life, liberty, and property.

Militia members and supporters do not have to be Rambos or Rambo wannabes. They merely have to be dedicated people that have skills or resources to offer. So what if you can't hump a ruck from Tacoma to Seattle--you can still tend to crops, provide medical care, drive, or do something else useful. We DO need to better prepare, but really, our limiting factors right now are personnel and resources. It is difficult for a fairly small group to build up what in essence is an alternative economy. Look at the armed forces. They have a lot of support personnel per front-line troop. All of them can defend themselves if necessary, but many focus on providing basic necessities to the other troops and to others.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 10:09:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2005 10:17:10 PM EDT by RedDawg6]
A lot of the misconceptions about the militia and it's purpose is fostered by the liberal media and we all know them to be very truthfull, right! NOT! The media is anti-2nd amendment and we all know that. They darn sure aren't going say anything positive about consitutionally minded gun owners who want nothing more than to be left the hell alone. With that being said, why should any rational person beleive them? Why would or should a gun owner who isn't actively involved in the militia unit allow the media to cloud his judgement on the militia issue when that same media source has consitently lied to that gun owner about every other issue that concerns firearms?
Case in point: The media always tries to put a racial spin on the militia by labeling as racists or having ties to Aryan Nations or some crap like that. I've been involved in the patrtiot movement for about 12 years or so. In that time period I've only come across 2 or 3 people who I would consider to be racists. But you will never see the media admit to the fact that it ain't about racism. They use that as a means to control people by saying "if you get involved in this, this is how we will slander you." The liberal media is our biggest enemy.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 11:53:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
Your underestimating the design of the organization, the quality that over-comes numerical and technical superiority.



I think you might be underestimating the advantage. On a grand scale.

I have no idea what your actual military experience is, and this makes me ask: Have you ever fought with the US Military? Are you actually aware of just how good we are?

Second, you mentioned before an example of "50 Iraqs." This is somewhat of a misnomer, as Iraq is actually only about twice the size of Idaho, but that is not the point. We can blame that on the fact that the average map reader doesn't understand Mercator projection distortion.

The real problem and casualty creator in Iraq is suicide bombs, not shooters. The shooters are taken care of rather quickly and decisively - I can give you numbers from one Marine sniper platoon that would make most folks faint.

Are you serious enough about this to go that route? I can't see the average American strapping on explosive belts.

Maybe I am wrong about you?

Once again, good thread. I await your reply.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 12:55:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 1:23:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 1:26:18 AM EDT by R-32]

Originally Posted By MacLean:
Are you actually aware of just how good we are?




How many Prior Service Military are out in public now.

I use my training all the time in my Job, and as a Vol. FF...Im sure you use your training to a extent aswell..


Lots of Pri Svc guys/gals could tell you how good and how bad the effectiveness of the military really is.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:52:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MacLean:

I think you might be underestimating the advantage. On a grand scale.

I have no idea what your actual military experience is, and this makes me ask: Have you ever fought with the US Military? Are you actually aware of just how good we are?


Simple answer yes, we war gamed against A-team SF, it's been a number of years and the new thermal imagers' can be very tough to beat, the new system that tracks direction of sniper bullets is also a effective tool, but you also assume that no one on the opposing team is on our side.

Are you aware the insurgents now take out the M1-A tank on  a regular basis ? battlefield evolution takes place on every battlefield, super weapons never remain so for long, every system has a weakness.


George Washington

The time is now near at hand which must probably determine whether Americans are to be freemen or slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their houses and farms are to be pillaged and destroyed, and themselves consigned to a state of wretchedness from which no human efforts will deliver them. The fate of unborn millions will now depend on God, on the courage and conduct of this army. Our cruel and unrelenting enemy leaves us only the choice of brave resistance, or the most abject submission. We have, therefore, to resolve to conquer or die.

Link Posted: 10/11/2005 8:50:48 AM EDT
My perception of the Militia is that it is the absolute bottom line, or base, for survival.
While no individual can do it all alone, several individuals with different specialties can get the job done.
The Militia is the effort of the 'unorganized' to BE organized enough and preserve our way of life here.

What is stronger?  A group of individuals, or an individual group?
I think of an open hand with fingers spread apart, or the hand clenched into a fist.
The fist is more powerful, but is comprised of the open hand brought together.

That might be a bit simple, but it's what I imagine as the purpose of the Militia.
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