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Posted: 9/23/2011 11:15:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 11:19:56 AM EST
Dang that is just not good.
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 11:24:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2011 2:26:21 PM EST by s30series]
Originally Posted By BookHound:
This is after less than 2000 rounds unsuppressed. The owner is a friend of mine and he thought he was doing a pretty good job cleaning and maintaining his rifle. The owner's manual never gave him a clue he needed to clean this area of the rifle.

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g426/AccurateOrdnance/Damage%20and%20Problems/pof_01_caLarge.jpg

See the gas relief ports in the bottom of the gas tube? Yeah, those vent hot gas and carbon down onto the barrel. Carbon attracts and holds moisture. Failing to adequately clean it can result in rust.

I'll post more as this project moves along. Just thought some of you guys might be interested.

Mark




It still worked though

surface rust just means its been used and abused....clean shiny rifles are gay
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 12:10:24 PM EST

Interesting they pointed those holes down like that.

Also odd there are two at different distances from the block.

Still, us FAL guys know all about this area needing cleaning.
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 12:31:33 PM EST
Ewwww.
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 1:03:19 PM EST
wow, who is the manufacturer that's not good i have a couple of Adams Arms set ups and so far they have been good, thanks for the heads up. i'll make sure i check them more carefully
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 1:08:50 PM EST
Wow, I can't imagine those guys that run the gas piston 5.45 upper Russian surplus ammo....
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 1:27:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By s30series:
Originally Posted By BookHound:
This is after less than 2000 rounds unsuppressed. The owner is a friend of mine and he thought he was doing a pretty good job cleaning and maintaining his rifle. The owner's manual never gave him a clue he needed to clean this area of the rifle.

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g426/AccurateOrdnance/Damage%20and%20Problems/pof_01_caLarge.jpg

See the gas relief ports in the bottom of the gas tube? Yeah, those vent hot gas and carbon down onto the barrel. Carbon attracts and holds moisture. Failing to adequately clean it can result in rust.

I'll post more as this project moves along. Just thought some of you guys might be interested.

Mark




It still worked though


I've fired more than 2000 rounds through my DI rifle with out cleaning. Not only does it still work, but nothing on it looks like that.
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 1:50:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By stimpsonjcat:


Still, us FAL guys know all about this area needing cleaning.



True. One big advantage is the ability to remove the handguards and get to this area on an FAL.

If you are running a FF tube or other solidly attached rail system, you are going to have a hard time getting to this area. Hopefully your holes or lightening cuts are generous and you can poke around with some pipe cleaners. Hoppes does good here, and of course Ballistol. Just a little "suprise we didn't tell you" if you have that set up.

Then again, if you have removeable rails or handguards, its basic maintenance to remove them and inspect/ clean under them. Even non piston guns will leak a little here and there, and as Mark has pointed out, the carbon will retain moisture. You will get some rust. I have a few NM type AR's and seen a few more, They have the steel tube under the hand guards, and whats under there is under there until the barrel comes off, usually in a year if you shoot regularly. I Have seen old Douglas CM barrles rusted and pitted tremendously in the area right behind the gas block/front sight base. Didn't take long either, less than 4000 rds and right at a year. Only our Infantry Trophy guns use the CM barrels, everything else is SS.

It will make you cry when they pop open a NM M14 and it has sat for years and under the wood is rusted and pitted. Can't take them out of the stock to clean them though. the bedding gets ruined.They don't get the rounds put through them they used to since they only get shot at LR events anymore, so they only get tore apart when they stop shooting good. We aren't even allowed to take the gas piston out, we can only clean the barrel. The gunsmith will do that at the end of the season. Its a hard life for a competition rifle sometimes... Hard life.
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 2:18:44 PM EST
Piston AR uppers. a Fix seeking a problem, or in this case a large bottle of Kroil......
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 4:18:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By panzer:
Originally Posted By stimpsonjcat:


Still, us FAL guys know all about this area needing cleaning.



True. One big advantage is the ability to remove the handguards and get to this area on an FAL.

If you are running a FF tube or other solidly attached rail system, you are going to have a hard time getting to this area. Hopefully your holes or lightening cuts are generous and you can poke around with some pipe cleaners. Hoppes does good here, and of course Ballistol. Just a little "suprise we didn't tell you" if you have that set up.

Then again, if you have removeable rails or handguards, its basic maintenance to remove them and inspect/ clean under them. Even non piston guns will leak a little here and there, and as Mark has pointed out, the carbon will retain moisture. You will get some rust. I have a few NM type AR's and seen a few more, They have the steel tube under the hand guards, and whats under there is under there until the barrel comes off, usually in a year if you shoot regularly. I Have seen old Douglas CM barrles rusted and pitted tremendously in the area right behind the gas block/front sight base. Didn't take long either, less than 4000 rds and right at a year. Only our Infantry Trophy guns use the CM barrels, everything else is SS.

It will make you cry when they pop open a NM M14 and it has sat for years and under the wood is rusted and pitted. Can't take them out of the stock to clean them though. the bedding gets ruined.They don't get the rounds put through them they used to since they only get shot at LR events anymore, so they only get tore apart when they stop shooting good. We aren't even allowed to take the gas piston out, we can only clean the barrel. The gunsmith will do that at the end of the season. Its a hard life for a competition rifle sometimes... Hard life.


...the horror...
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 4:21:50 PM EST
Wow!


Link Posted: 9/23/2011 4:43:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By panzer:
Originally Posted By stimpsonjcat:
It will make you cry when they pop open a NM M14 and it has sat for years and under the wood is rusted and pitted. Can't take them out of the stock to clean them though. the bedding gets ruined.They don't get the rounds put through them they used to since they only get shot at LR events anymore, so they only get tore apart when they stop shooting good. We aren't even allowed to take the gas piston out, we can only clean the barrel. The gunsmith will do that at the end of the season. Its a hard life for a competition rifle sometimes... Hard life.


wow. Why will they not let yall thoroughly clean them yourselves?
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 6:01:15 PM EST
Their guns Their rules.

Eveything is fitted and assembled shimmed and torqued to exacting specs and tested until its just right. Every single one. Some get rebuilt and retested 2-3 times before they are good enough. we start taking it apart and it starts losing consistancy and the finely fitted parts arent so much anymore. It takes a lot of work to keep an M14 running at peak performance levels, and even in the Army, parts are few and far between. We only shoot them for 800-1000 yds, and they don't get alot of range time. Probably more time in the shop or truck getting worked on than firing. These rifles have been made and remade over and over since the 1960's. They are not pretty.. but they do ok. The Guard is the only Military team I know of that still uses the M14 for Long Range anymore. Everyone else is running AR15's or AR10's. And up until 2 years ago, the M14 was king of the line, but the AR10 has handily surpassed it.


Stimpy, it a sad sight to behold. But its good to look at them and know they are serving their purpose in the world and being used.
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 6:08:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2011 6:08:40 PM EST by Sleeper396]
The whole assembly is corroded pretty badly, I guess the corrosion at the front of the barrel is due to the piston too? This thing looks like it was left on the beach. And the corrosion you see is dissimilar metal corrosion, not because of carbon build up. By the way what system is this? Doesn't look like ANY of the popular ones, so what is the point of this thread? Another lame ass attempt at disproving something that you don't own? Have fun in your ignorance, I will be enjoying shooting my gun and not wasting my days bashing DI (even though I have damn good reason to), yall should probably do the same.
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 6:17:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 6:36:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
The whole assembly is corroded pretty badly, I guess the corrosion at the front of the barrel is due to the piston too? This thing looks like it was left on the beach. And the corrosion you see is dissimilar metal corrosion, not because of carbon build up. By the way what system is this? Doesn't look like ANY of the popular ones, so what is the point of this thread? Another lame ass attempt at disproving something that you don't own? Have fun in your ignorance, I will be enjoying shooting my gun and not wasting my days bashing DI (even though I have damn good reason to), yall should probably do the same.


hahaha this post made me last! I needed some humor today!
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 6:59:05 PM EST
This upper is a well-known name brand. What you see here is not electrolytic corrosion. It is carbon buildup and surface rust. See the crater in the end of the flute? That is actually a layer of carbon. The whole point of this picture is that a piston gun, by design, is intended to keep the crud away from areas where it ought not to be. Yes, it vents externally and does the job, but the purpose is partially defeated when a gun looks like this. Protection from corrosion is an important part of quality in any mechanism. Furthermore, the customer was completely unaware of the problem. What if this escalated to a point where corrosion compromised the barrel structure or gas cylinder? Who would want to be holding a rifle like that preparing to fire? I'm not a piston vs. DI guy either way- I appreciate qualities of both. Adhere to the perceived low-maintenance of a GP system at your own risk.
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 7:05:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2011 7:09:18 PM EST by Sleeper396]
Which brand is it?

Don't get me wrong, I in no way believe that GP systems are completely maintenance free. Anyone who believes any weapon is maintenance free is a fucking moron and deserves whatever corrosion they get. But there is more to the story than "it did this because piston."
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 7:10:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By p0p0k0pf:
This upper is a well-known name brand. What you see here is not electrolytic corrosion. It is carbon buildup and surface rust. See the crater in the end of the flute? That is actually a layer of carbon. The whole point of this picture is that a piston gun, by design, is intended to keep the crud away from areas where it ought not to be. Yes, it vents externally and does the job, but the purpose is partially defeated when a gun looks like this. Protection from corrosion is an important part of quality in any mechanism. Furthermore, the customer was completely unaware of the problem. What if this escalated to a point where corrosion compromised the barrel structure or gas cylinder? Who would want to be holding a rifle like that preparing to fire? I'm not a piston vs. DI guy either way- I appreciate qualities of both. Adhere to the perceived low-maintenance of a GP system at your own risk.


methinks it would take a whole lot more rounds for surface rust to compromise the integrity of the barrel. whole lot being 1000s and 1000s

thats nothing a little break cleaner/CLP and a brass brush wont fix.
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 7:37:47 PM EST
If I owned a gas piston operated rifle I would still clean it as though it was ready for inspection.

I keep my weapons very clean after I use them and would do so even though it wasn't a DI gas system.
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 8:08:25 PM EST
Nope, doesn't look dirty to me, although my jump to conclusions mat hasn't been working lately. I should go check the TPS reports.




Is it a POF?
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 8:24:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2011 8:25:46 PM EST by sinlessorrow]
damn thats bad, id like to know what brand as well, it may be surface rust but to all those sayin a piston is a fix, i dont see this as a fix

ETA: took me all of 10 second google to find the manufacturer and its a damn shame too
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 1:51:31 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 1:53:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 2:25:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2011 2:30:49 AM EST by LARRYG]
Originally Posted By sspicher:
Originally Posted By s30series:
Originally Posted By BookHound:
This is after less than 2000 rounds unsuppressed. The owner is a friend of mine and he thought he was doing a pretty good job cleaning and maintaining his rifle. The owner's manual never gave him a clue he needed to clean this area of the rifle.

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g426/AccurateOrdnance/Damage%20and%20Problems/pof_01_caLarge.jpg

See the gas relief ports in the bottom of the gas tube? Yeah, those vent hot gas and carbon down onto the barrel. Carbon attracts and holds moisture. Failing to adequately clean it can result in rust.

I'll post more as this project moves along. Just thought some of you guys might be interested.

Mark




It still worked though


I've fired more than 2000 rounds through my DI rifle with out cleaning. Not only does it still work, but nothing on it looks like that.


I have gone up to about 1500 SUPPRESSED rounds through one of my AR10s just to see how far it would go without a hiccup while not cleaning it.

It NEVER looked like that. No part anywhere on the gun ever looked like that.

The external piston guns get just as dirty, they just put it somewhere else and it appears that it doesn't forgive as much as an internal (erroneously called DI) gun does when not cleaned for a while.

My experience with external piston guns is that there are more parts to clean and it puts crap in places that are harder to get to.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 3:16:36 AM EST
That looks like it was left outside or something. Perhaps put away wet in the case. I am an expert at guns that don't ever get maintained and that looks like an exception.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 4:43:36 AM EST
most all the major Piston companies have a lifetime warranty and are interested in ANY failures. the reason i went with Adams Arms is the fact it vents the gas out of the front of the weapons gas block/piston, it clearly shows that in the videos linked to their website. most other piston guns vent under the handguards and i can see the need for cleaning to very well after use. i for one would like to know what system/company produced the product in question. maybe the guys in the piston forum could help out.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 5:47:36 AM EST
I've seen the upper that is pictured. The carbine was maintained as any other standard AR-15. The problem that Bookhound is pointing out is the fact that the operating system vented DIRECTLY onto the barrel. Also, the handguard was not easily removed for maintenance of the area nor was information provided that the area should be monitored.

For further piston discussion:
H&K 416s vent out the front and you can easily remove the entire rail, LWRC allows access by removing the top half of the rail. For the piston owners of other brands how is the area accessible without armorer level tools? Where is there a gas vent and what direction is it pointed?



Link Posted: 9/24/2011 6:29:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By MadcapMagician:
I've seen the upper that is pictured. The carbine was maintained as any other standard AR-15. The problem that Bookhound is pointing out is the fact that the operating system vented DIRECTLY onto the barrel. Also, the handguard was not easily removed for maintenance of the area nor was information provided that the area should be monitored.

For further piston discussion:
H&K 416s vent out the front and you can easily remove the entire rail, LWRC allows access by removing the top half of the rail. For the piston owners of other brands how is the area accessible without armorer level tools? Where is there a gas vent and what direction is it pointed?





i think Book is doing right by pointing out that Piston guns still need to be maintenanced, and yes the company should have done a little research and offered info on proper levels of cleaning. as i stated before the reason i went the Adams Arms route was the fact the gas vents forward from gas block/piston, customer service and reliabilty. the Arse and Osprey systems vent into the handguard areas from the reviews i've seen and pics of said systems dissassembled. i'm not sure about the CMMG system and where it vents the gas. i honestly have not looked very much into POF or LWCR, due to the price range. i've also read and heard, several VERY mediocre reviews on POF, i have never shot one, but i do understand that the internet is not always correct. i have shot a LWRC rifle, very nice IMHO, also shot several AA converted guns and that is what sold me on their system. but at the end of the day, my Colt M4(DI) is my oldest AR15 and has always been 100%, other than some Tula . so i guess we'll see how the longevity of the piston rifles hold up
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 7:47:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By MadcapMagician:
I've seen the upper that is pictured. The carbine was maintained as any other standard AR-15. The problem that Bookhound is pointing out is the fact that the operating system vented DIRECTLY onto the barrel. Also, the handguard was not easily removed for maintenance of the area nor was information provided that the area should be monitored.

For further piston discussion:
H&K 416s vent out the front and you can easily remove the entire rail, LWRC allows access by removing the top half of the rail. For the piston owners of other brands how is the area accessible without armorer level tools? Where is there a gas vent and what direction is it pointed?



Looking at the barrel, it has not been properly maintained.

One fallacy DI fanboys fall for is the "if one piston brand sucks they all suck." menatlity. Unfortunately/fortunately there has been no standardization of piston systems so not all are made the same. Not all pistons are created equal either, some are definitely better than others. LWRCI and HK in my opinion have the best piston systems. Never messed with AA so I couldn't tell you about them as I only have experience with LWRCI and HK. Obviously the system in the picture is one of the lesser ones.

Link Posted: 9/24/2011 8:30:17 AM EST
So what is it at the area that looks cupped on the barrel where the first vent hole area is at? Is it just build up or is the barrel steel etched out?
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 10:19:25 AM EST
Looks like you put your rifle up wet. Take care of your stuff.

Too bad you aren't intelligent enough to figure out who the manufacturer is or decided to conveniently leave that tidbit of information out.

You can't fix stupid. I bet your buddy could tear any gun up.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 10:33:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By EveryKneeShallBow:
Looks like you put your rifle up wet. Take care of your stuff.

Too bad you aren't intelligent enough to figure out who the manufacturer is or decided to conveniently leave that tidbit of information out.

You can't fix stupid. I bet your buddy could tear any gun up.




Do what? Put down tha beer and go back and read the OP. Then you'll realize the stupidity foolishness of your response.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 10:41:06 AM EST
Why have all the assholes been congregating in the GAHTF lately?
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 10:47:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By EveryKneeShallBow:
Looks like you put your rifle up wet. Take care of your stuff.

Too bad you aren't intelligent enough to figure out who the manufacturer is or decided to conveniently leave that tidbit of information out.

You can't fix stupid. I bet your buddy could tear any gun up.


Reading comprehension is key.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 11:00:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
Why have all the assholes been congregating in the GAHTF lately?


My fault

There was a discussion in another part of the forums and I posted this picture and link. Didn't realize what it would attract.

I'm sorry folks.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 11:16:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 11:55:56 AM EST
You are a moron if you think anything but neglect caused that.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 12:05:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
You are a moron if you think anything but neglect caused that.


6.) Attacking or insulting a person in an effort to elicit a negative response. You have a right to disagree, but please do so in a respectful manner.

Seriously dude let it go.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 12:07:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2011 12:09:11 PM EST by coastal_shredder]
Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:
Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
Why have all the assholes been congregating in the GAHTF lately?


My fault

There was a discussion in another part of the forums and I posted this picture and link. Didn't realize what it would attract.

I'm sorry folks.


It's funny to watch em come in with their typin fingers on fire like this. its obvious which ones are valuable and which ones are meant to make me chuckle along with everyone else who can "read good" at those who have made different life choices regarding civility.


TO GET BACK TO THE POINT, however, what if someone were do develop a protective sleeve to protect the barrel from this kind of buildup? it would still need to be removed to clean underneath from time to time, but would at least shield the barrel itself from bearing the brunt of the carbon onslaught. perhaps then coated in something with good heat-resistant properties? or just coat the barrel in that something? again, would still need cleaning like anything else, but just to give you some slack time before any damage is done.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 12:13:50 PM EST
In defense of the OP, show me in the POF manual where it says removing the rail and cleaning underneath the gas block should be done as normal maintenance. I've read the manual and the only parts they recommend cleaning are the actual components of the gas system themselves.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 12:17:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2011 12:20:05 PM EST by coastal_shredder]
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
You are a moron if you think anything but neglect caused that.


It may be true neglect caused it, but more likely than not it was benign neglect. I think one point the OP was trying to make was that this is something that the manufacturer did not think to educate its consumers about, and took it upon himself to help others out who maybe be going down the same road. His goal was not to suggest that the manufacturer itself or the concept of a piston system is inferior. For a "DI" AR, while it is important to clean and inspect all areas from time to time, this area is not normally checked as frequently, for good reason - it isn't necessary.

Suppose you bought a car, and the dealer didn't tell you that this new engine design needed to have the oil changed every 400 miles, and it isn't anywhere in the manual or published manufacturer literature. You drive it off the lot and go for the normal 3,000 - 5,000 miles before expecting to change it, according to your knowledge of a proper maintenance schedule. Are YOU then the "moron" when you take it in, only to find that half the block has worn itself beyond repair?
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 1:22:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By coastal_shredder:
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
You are a moron if you think anything but neglect caused that.


It may be true neglect caused it, but more likely than not it was benign neglect. I think one point the OP was trying to make was that this is something that the manufacturer did not think to educate its consumers about, and took it upon himself to help others out who maybe be going down the same road. His goal was not to suggest that the manufacturer itself or the concept of a piston system is inferior. For a "DI" AR, while it is important to clean and inspect all areas from time to time, this area is not normally checked as frequently, for good reason - it isn't necessary.

Suppose you bought a car, and the dealer didn't tell you that this new engine design needed to have the oil changed every 400 miles, and it isn't anywhere in the manual or published manufacturer literature. You drive it off the lot and go for the normal 3,000 - 5,000 miles before expecting to change it, according to your knowledge of a proper maintenance schedule. Are YOU then the "moron" when you take it in, only to find that half the block has worn itself beyond repair?


This hits the nail on the head.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 2:02:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
You are a moron if you think anything but neglect caused that.


Or perhaps you think that when someone sees something like this they should not take the time to say "hey anyone owning a system like this be sure to clean under the handguards." Man, I'm glad our HTF does not normally have this much doucheness in it. Go back to your HTF and call names will ya.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 2:07:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By EveryKneeShallBow:
Looks like you put your rifle up wet. Take care of your stuff.

Too bad you aren't intelligent enough to figure out who the manufacturer is or decided to conveniently leave that tidbit of information out.

You can't fix stupid. I bet your buddy could tear any gun up.


Your post is clear evidence of that.

Link Posted: 9/24/2011 3:55:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
You are a moron if you think anything but neglect caused that.


Are you capable of posting without insulting anyone?
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 4:27:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
You are a moron if you think anything but neglect caused that.


Are you capable of posting without insulting anyone?


No he is not. Most likely due to the fact that he sucks at life. He goes online and insults people to make himself feel better.
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 4:46:04 PM EST
What's up with all the out of state jackasses coming in here and showing their ignorance?
Link Posted: 9/24/2011 5:21:51 PM EST
Back on topic. How much do you think the gas venting into the flute hurt. Seems that if it was a standard barrel, the problem might not be as bad. Although, whoever decided to vent the gas there didnt really think that one thru to begin with.
Link Posted: 9/25/2011 2:55:52 AM EST
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