Magazines may no longer be filled with more than 10 rounds on both the pistol and rifle range.

Semi automatic and automatic rifles may only be used under cover in the four right shooting positions and outside.

The restrictions are due to interference with shooters sighting in their rifles and range management issues associated with folks emptying 100 round or 50 round magazines without interruption.

Quite honestly I feel like we have been Zumboed by the earflap crowd, who would probably bitch and moan even if a 1 round/minute limitation is established.

There should be no reason why I could not use this state facility to at least function check a 20 round mag in my AR15 or M1A or a 15 round mag in my XD9.

The following fyi is Fish and Game's explanation for the change:

Thank you for your e-mail to Matt Robus and Kim Titus on 5 August.
Director Robus retired last week, but I am happy to respond to your
concerns in his absence and before our new Director (Doug Larsen) begins
his service in a few weeks.  

The primary functions of the Rabbit Creek Shooting Range are hunter
education, shooting safety education, and hunting-related sighting-in
and practice activities.  The uppermost consideration in all of these
activities is safety -- safety of the users, safety of passersby, and
safety of the public at large.  As a safety concern, the Department long
ago instituted a range policy that rapid or automatic fire was limited
to short, controlled bursts.  

Recently, range staff has encountered increasing non-compliance with
this rapid- and automatic-fire rule, and having more and more difficulty
enforcing it.  We have received many complaints, both from shooters and
from residents in nearby neighborhoods.  They were concerned that when
shooters empty large magazines they sacrifice muzzle control, which
could result in errant rounds being directed unsafely.  Two range users
recently complained of being cut by rock fragments sprayed at them by
bullets striking rocky ground in front of shooting benches; rapid-fire
shooters had lost precise control of their weapons and their rounds were
directed inappropriately.  

I'm sure there are experienced shooters capable of handling rapid-fire
situations more skillfully, but we must accommodate all shooters of all
skill levels.  Hunter marksmanship training is oriented toward killing
game cleanly with single, well-placed shots.  As a general rule, for
hunter training at this type of range, sending out more than ten rounds
is neither desirable nor necessary.  

Our decision to limit the number of rounds allowed in a magazine was not
taken lightly.  Range staff talked to many long-time range users before
settling on the ten-round limit.  We felt ten rounds would still allow
rapid-fire ability in short, controlled bursts.  The rule was not
intended to push people to Birchwood.  In fact, Birchwood employees have
experienced similar situations and have similar concerns.  They have
been in contact with our Rabbit Creek staff to help set up a range
safety officer program similar to the one in place at our facility.  We
did not intend the rule to limit anyone's rights, it was meant to
protect people.  If you have suggestions for how we may improve this
rule, please share them.  For the time being, though, the rule will
stand.  

If the Rabbit Creek range no longer meets your needs with the
implementation of this rule, the Department will gladly refund your
dues.  As long as the Department operates shooting ranges around the
state, our top priority will be safety.  We will structure the rules to
ensure a maximally safe environment for all.

Thank you for your use and support of the Rabbit Creek Shooting Range
over the years.

I am copying Ron Clarke and Jerry Soukup with this response.  Ron is our
Assistant Director who provides oversight of HIT and other statewide
programs and of course Jerry leads the HIT program specifically.

Sincerely,

Kim Titus
Acting Director

I agree, it is unfortuante that a small group of people have ruined it for the rest of the shooters

It is a rifle range for peet sakes..............YOU should expect lots of noise and lots of gunfire.  I think a bunch of machine gunners should all head out to Rabbit Creek on a Saturday and be there right when the range opens and take up all the stalls and don't leave for the whole day.  Spend the whole day firing 10 round burst from every automatic firearm they can bring.  

It appears that some regular users at Rabbit Creek and the employees who work there have decided to try and turn it into their own private club at state expense.

I agree with the ridiculous rules needing to be changed. The problem Ive noticed is when people give in a little to people who bitch, they tend to bitch more and then your giving up a LOT more. Give an inch, take a mile mean anything to anybody?!? A state run facility paid with our tax dollars shouldnt be making exceptions for a group of shooters and pushing away the others when in the past for decades, this wasnt a problem.
     Maybe folks should start contacting officials for the dept. of fish and game who run the facility and get a sitdown with them or contact them by letter to ask them why they have started instituting restrictive rules and for what reason?  A lot of people I run across have a lot of negatives to say about the range versus positives. A majority of complaints are against a certain range officer who has been dubbed a "I-know-it-all royal pain in the ass with a loudspeaker". I am not privy to the gentlemans name but he does not have a lot of kind words spoken about him.  
                                                                     Working for the city or state, there is one thing all employees dont like and that is a spotlight shining on their ass with complaints. Quickest way to get reprimanded or at least re-adjusted. All it takes is a letter or phone call to get it started.

I sent a message to the Director and Deputy Director of the Division of Wildlife Conservation.
Their contact info may be found at http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?&CFID=6572835&CFTOKEN=93662447

Wow, that's pretty dumb.

So their issue is that there's too much noise?  At a fucking shooting range?

That's like going to a movie theater and bitching about "all that popcorn".

The Fudds find the black rifle crowd destroys the ambiance. Apparently Fish and Game agrees... Rather than deal with specific behavioral issues they are taking the easy way out at the expense of all but the Fudds.

I sent the following e-mail.

'[email protected]'

Hello,

I was informed by a friend of mine that new regulations are now in place at Rabbit Creek, regarding magazine capacity.  Apparently, without public input the local managers of the range decided to limit the capacity that can be loaded into magazines for semi-auto rifles and pistols to only 10 rounds.  This has to be a preposterous mistake that I am sure can be rectified immediately.  If other shooters are uncomfortable with people operating firearms with magazine capacities greater than 10 rounds, I would like to understand why they feel that way since this is a rifle range – you expect to hear noise from the operation of firearms.  No matter if a firearm takes 5 rounds or 100 rounds, they make the same amount of noise with each round discharged.  

Please verify that this policy is a mistake.  If it is not, I would like to begin a public hearing into the future use of Rabbit Creek.

Sincerely,

Reminds me of the bad old days when the old goat ran the place before Lee Rogers ran it. Lee's been promoted and several guys have run it since. A shame to see it changing. I used to spend half a day, sometimes more, there and had a ton of fun teaching my kids, my wire, her friends and others to shoot nice polite wood-stocked weapons as well as evil black rifles. Last time I was there things were such a pain in the neck that Mrs. Bananas and I went and bought an annual super-duper membership at Birchwood. And I live exactly TWO minutes from Rabbit Creek. Bizarre turn of events when I have to load up the Bananamobile with all the hardware and drive forty minutes just to practice double-taps and Mozambiques on double targets.

The real shame is that Rabbit Creek is a great facility now that the gomers and Masters of the Sporting Clays Guild run the place, it's getting more restrictive -- more like a State-run country club. You read it here first: use of Rabbit Creek will decrease, fees will go up, fewer people will use it and then the state will close it down for lack of interest -- unless the greenies and EPAers don't do it first because of lead poisoning.

Dang-O. Must have been the remodeling work at the house today. I am DEFINITELY grumpy.

If anyone organizes a redress to these dumb rules, let me know and I will sign on.

This is why I love my local range - no rules.  Unfortunately it's greatest feature is also it's worse con - no rules.  Machineguns, cannons, Tannerite, drum mags, big mag dumps, rapid fire, .50BMG, oh my.  Just don't forget to wear your body armor if you got it...

What are "range management issues associated with folks emptying 100 round or 50 round magazines without interruption."?

As long as they are shooting safely, and don't take too long - I don't see the "issue".  If they are firing without interruption, it's not like they are taking too long.

Limited semi-automatic positions?  I know people who can shoot revolvers and bolt rifles faster than some of my machineguns.  I agree with HKinAK.  I'd go there, and fire as fast as possible, every time, with my non-semiautomatic guns, never slowing down.  I'd also fire the loudest guns I could.  Perhaps a braked .338 and a braked .500S&W.  It would be worth the waste of ammo just to piss them off.  I'd tell them that if it weren't for the new rules, I'd be shooting my suppressed rimfire MG not bothering anyone.

Unfortunately, they probably just institute some other rules I have heard of - no rapid fire, no more than 2 rounds in the magazine.

This is a sad state of affairs considering this is fricken ALASKA!  The "management" sounds like they belong in the People's Republic of Kailfornia running a range down there.  What, are they liberals or something?  Does the management not live in Alaska?  Some people at the range NEED offending.

Good grief! Damn range nazi's

I quit shooting at RC about 6 years ago, couldn't stand all their BS.  Much better to make the drive to Birchwood where they welcome us MG shooters.

I concurr.  There is one unfortunate rule at Birchwood, however - no Tannerite because some jackass misused it and blew part of a back berm away.  Gee, thanks for spoiling it for everyone else...

I prefer Birchwood too and have a membership there, however Rabbit is pretty convenient when I just want to make a quick trip to the range to test some ammo or something I have been working on..

Quoted: I concurr.  There is one unfortunate rule at Birchwood, however - no Tannerite because some jackass misused it and blew part of a back berm away.  Gee, thanks for spoiling it for everyone else...

That's what EPM days are for  Or maybe it's just shooting cans and stuff

I have to admit that I was part of the jackass crew and was there for the infamous Birchwood Tannerite Banning Incident.

The berm wasn't blown away.  Nothing was damaged other than my personal target frame that I brought from home (and heck - that just added to the fun).

Noise complaints were the issue.  

Interestingly enough, we're now invited back to use tannerite to signal the range change times at Youth Day each year.

Matt

Thank for clearing up my misconception, Matt.  I was directly told that there was a chunk of damage to the berm, nothing about the noise.  When I use Tannerite at my range, even though there are no rules, I still use common courtesy and tell the other shooters that I am about to blow some Tannerite.  If there are some serious hunters trying to site in rifles and not being lame about it (like taking forever), I will wait until after they have shot their group.  Most simply enjoy the show.  Sometimes I let them try their hand at hitting some of the targets cause it's more fun, to me at least, to watch it blow than to be the shooter and miss some of the big picture.

At a place like Birchwood, which I am very fond of, there are just too many shooters to be a dick and blow an oversized charge.  That's just rude.  Go someplace else where no once cares.  This is Alaska, there is plenty of room.  I would have kept it to half or full single charges at most.

At my range, we blow gallon jugs of the stuff, and upen up with the M2HBs.


Not to say some people don't need offending.  That's when I open up with full auto .308 in a short barrel.  If the concussion doesn't get them, the ejected cases will.  But that's if they are being really inconsiderate themselves.

Yep Mike - you hit the nail on the head.  In retrospect we were pushing the charge sizes more than we should have when the fudds were around.

Using any amount of tannerite at a public range is a tough thing.  No matter how safely it's used, someone is always going to be scared.  Heck - even seeing certain types of guns scare them. <g>

Thanks,

Matt

I have to laugh that the official statement is that we 'damaged the range' with the tannerite.

I guess it's easier to say that than to say 'we banned it cause it made a big loud scary noise and we wanted to pee ourselves'

Guess we better not let them know that bullet impacts damage the backstops.

As a side note I do feel guilty at putting Chuck into a position to have to deal with this issue and I appreciate the support he's given the AMGA over the years.

Matt

If the problem is noise they should ban Magnum rifles with muzzle brakes.

Just saying...

A.  I am not surprised about the BS "offical statement" due to what I have gathered about the Birchwood management.  I like the range, not the management.

B.  I'm am surprised that Tannerite isn't banned yet, way to much fun.  I'm a bit sensitive when I hear about the wild things people do with it.  It's okay privately but screwing around publicly around the wrong people endangers it.  I'm expecting someone to pull a stupid stunt bad enough, and publicly enough, that they ban it.  Many of us fear that.  I stocked up on Tannerite for that very reason.  Now I only blow what I am rotating out for fresher stock.

Heck, I was building up to a 40lb charge with liquid fuel rolling firecloud but leading up to it as very, very cautious and controlled, and after everyone left.  BTW- I only got up to a 7lb charge with 4 liters of gas/naptha.  I plan to make it happen one day, still got all the stuff for it.

Four VERY important questions, Mike!

When?
Where?
Can I come?

and finally,

Can I bring 10 lbs so it's an even 50?  Let's make it a tannerite pot-luck.  Everyone bring what they have and we'll throw it in the pile.

<G>

Matt

Below is my response to the DF&G response that SKIshooter received,


Hello all,


I have given purview to review the response that you provide a user of Rabbit Creek Rifle Range.  The main range at Rabbit Creek is for the use of all firearm users. The range is to support all firearms users to have a place to perfect whatever firearms training they endeavor to learn.  The secondary ranges are tied to the hunter education safety program.  

You allege increasing non-compliance with rapid and automatic fire rule.  This would not be a problem if the range employees did not stay locked up in the range office all the time.  If they were out observing the range users, they could ban a user from the range for improper firearms use.  Instead, you (DF&G) elect to take a knee-jerk reaction and instead of making the employees enforce the rules, you elect to suppress all responsible users of the range.  

When I am at the range and a shooter fires off a round from their 300 Win Mag rifle and their muzzle break rattles my fillings in my teeth, I don’t go complaining to the range manager. It is a rifle range – you expect that.  I do not understand why these rifle users need such large caliber rifle to go Moose hunting or similar game --- it does not take that large of caliber to down an animal like that.  I have seen bolt rifle users that had very bad firearms handling skills.  

Given the many issues of Rabbit Creek, it sounds like a user group should be established that includes all types of firearms users.  Instead of the range managers and employees polling people, where there can selectively choose the outcome, a group of users should decide what and how the range should be used.  There has to be a better solution for all users to coexist.  



Sincerely,

I will be drafting my response over the weekend. I think asking them to establish a balanced user group/advisory board is a great idea.

Sweet letter, HKinAK.

The reply from Dept. of Fish and Game has to be the biggest B.S. reply Ive seen yet to date from a government organization. Lemme break this down for ya....

1. " The primary functions of the Rabbit Creek Shooting Range are hunter
education, shooting safety education, and hunting-related sighting-in
and practice activities."
                    Ok, I can see that but on your webpage you state that this range is for both hunters AND recreational shooters, not just hunter safety and education like your trying to push throughout your reply and webpage description.

2. "The uppermost consideration in all of these
activities is safety -- safety of the users, safety of passersby, and
safety of the public at large. As a safety concern, the Department long
ago instituted a range policy that rapid or automatic fire was limited
to short, controlled bursts."
                       As a safety concern?!? More likely a noise concern than a safety concern. APD does get calls about potters marsh but it's about the firearm noise PERIOD, not semi-auto's or automatics specifically. I talked at length with an 20+ year veteran tonight about this and he agreed that it was about the noise, not a specific type of gun noise. He explained that APD used their range one time for training and they had to let them but didnt want to because of the noise they put out. Did you happen to notice that concern for noise was not mentioned ONCE in the reply from Fish and Game?!?

3. "Recently, range staff has encountered increasing non-compliance with
this rapid- and automatic-fire rule, and having more and more difficulty
enforcing it."
         Ok, this is a, according to them, RECENT activity....my question is why are all the range safety officers not doing their job!! If you see an unsafe act, go out and stop it! If they are anything but nice, ask them to leave. If they cause a problem, call the police and have them banned from the range, problem solved. SIMPLE yet for some reason, the direct approach just doesnt compute. What difficulty is there in enforcing their policies?!? Why wont they go out and do their job of keeping order on the range and keeping everybody so safe like they want or are the range officers lacking the proper equipment (balls for instance) to go walk, talk, and act like a man with a pair. The range officers have the ability to kick your ass out if you screw up so why dont they use it???

4. "We have received many complaints, both from shooters and
from residents in nearby neighborhoods. They were concerned that when
shooters empty large magazines they sacrifice muzzle control, which
could result in errant rounds being directed unsafely."
                                                First off, no one can see the range from a neighborhood without a telescope so how can you receive complaints about possible lost muzzle control when they cant even see the range or even see if they have large magazines or a lot of people shooting at the same time! "Honey, they are shooting a lot at Potters Marsh today, we better duck and cover just in case an errant round comes our way." Large or small magazine, assault rifle or bolt action... makes no damn difference at all if the bullet goes anywhere other than downrange and I have YET to see any screwball retard shooting fast while smoking a cigarette while yelling "WOOHOO!" shoot anywhere other than in front of him. Maybe I'm just lucky I guess.........

5. "Two range users
recently complained of being cut by rock fragments sprayed at them by
bullets striking rocky ground in front of shooting benches; rapid-fire
shooters had lost precise control of their weapons and their rounds were
directed inappropriately."
                      Did the range officers go and straighten them out? Did the injured themselves go and say anything to the rapid fire bastards? Were their range priviledges revoked for a period of time? Why is everyone else paying for a few peoples sins when you could solve each case one at a time? Besides, what would happen if a bolt action shooter or two lost control of their slow firing Elmer Fudd Commemoratives and sprayed me with gravel? I'm betting nothing.

6." we must accommodate all shooters of all
skill levels."
          Then why dont you do so and give a spot for rapid fire shooting like on the instructor range where we used to shoot machineguns so we didnt bother other shooters with the *sigh* noise.

7."Hunter marksmanship training is oriented toward killing
game cleanly with single, well-placed shots. As a general rule, for
hunter training at this type of range, sending out more than ten rounds
is neither desirable nor necessary."
                           Most shooters are not hunters and yet you offer the range to recreational shooters on your webpage. Why must recreational shooters, who mostly dont hunt,  comply with the hunters training crap of 10 rounds when we are not shooting at live targets?!? We are here to have fun and play, not train. If I wanted training, I'd join the Marines.

8."Our decision to limit the number of rounds allowed in a magazine was not
taken lightly. Range staff talked to many long-time range users before
settling on the ten-round limit. We felt ten rounds would still allow
rapid-fire ability in short, controlled bursts."
                                         Long time range users?!? You just flat out showed us that you are taking the side of a select small group of shooters opinions (which might mirror your own) and placing them above everyone elses! What about my opinion, or everyone elses? Dont they count? Why dont we get a say in this? Who the heck are they to us? This is a state range paid with our tax dollars, Right???
                             Why 10 rounds? Why not 5 or 15 or 12? I can insert, shoot and replace with a fresh 10 round mag quite fast and you would never know I was using just 10 round mags. What difference does it make? I'm still making noise.

9."We did not intend the rule to limit anyone's rights, it was meant to
protect people. If you have suggestions for how we may improve this
rule, please share them. For the time being, though, the rule will
stand."

I just have one suggestion.....Do your job! Go out there and stop unsafe acts, keep an eye out for potential problems and make sure everyone is safe and having fun. Dont punish us all because of a few bad apples. I would like to continue to go to your range but I wont if this ruling continues to stand.

                                                                          Jason

P.S. I wonder how many more rambo ranges will start up after this rule.....hmmmmm....anybody know any good spots?

Nothing like fellow shooters tearing down our sport.  The 2nd is all about hunters ya know

So bottom line, Rabbit Creek is a range for hunters only, not recreational shooters, not for sport shooters, not for self defensive users, not for people trying to train.  How narrow minded.

Great comments Jason. I suggest emailing them to Titus and Larson..

FWIW -  ADFG benefits from the firearms and ammunition excise tax which is levied on ALL firearms and ammunition, then returned to states under the Pittman Robertson Act to fund wildlife and hunting related activities.  

Quoted: FWIW -  ADFG benefits from the firearms and ammunition excise tax which is levied on ALL firearms and ammunition, then returned to states under the Pittman Robertson Act to fund wildlife and hunting related activities.

I only went there once back in 1993 and never went back.
With the taxes I've paid and the money they have received, they should worship me and my guns as a Savior.

ETA: I shoot more ammo in 15 minutes than a Fudd will in a year.

Yeah rabbit Creek range, in my opnion, is a joke... thay have basically taken the fun out of shooting away..  not only have they taken the fun, thay have added more regs and they have upped there price..the last time i was there i was with a friend and he asked why the price increase?  they had said something around these lines....

"people have gone to birchwood range and didnt like it cuz there was no one really there to enforce there rules. they didnt feel "Safe" and they came back to rabbit creek range cause they enforce there rules and thats why we raised our price"

i dont know about all that...  like one of you guys said, Rabbit creek has turned into a "sighing in" range... i personally quit going to all the ranges cause they wont let me use my exploding targets (tannerite), which are 100% perfectly leagull... i was really surprised birchwood wouldent let me use them there either... so when i feel like shooting, i take a drive out towards the old abandon Nike Missile site where i have the FREEDOM to shoot how i want and as fast as i want. i own Sporting rifles NOT ASSULT RIFLES, (assult rifles are rifles capible of full-auto fire), 1 Ak-47, 1 ak-47 Pistol, M1 Carbine, Mini-14 and a few other handguns...

all in all, if you want to sight in your rifle, i would recommend rabbit creek, but if your a plinker like me, take the little drive out to Birchwood cause there is no regulatation on rapid fire or full-auto....  i was shootin my AK so fast that i had a military guy and a APD officer come walk down to my bench and asked if it were full auto cause they wanted to shoot it if it was... people are alot nicer out there too.  for example, i dont get all alaskan camo'ed out to go shooting. i wear a hoodie( hooded sweatshirt) and army camo pants, and when i went to rabbit creek, i got the vibe that me and my friend were just some punk kids with guns that dont know a thing about gun saftey and people just treated us different. now another friend of mine would get all alaska camo'ed out and other people that wore same style clothes would actually come walk up to him and talk and start a conversatation where as no one ever talked to us. just gave us like mean/bad looks. i felt uncomfortable there. i never once got that at Birchwood. but since ammo has gone up in price, my trigger time is not as much as it used to be... so when i go shoot, i go to my spot in wassilla and i leave a happy plinker!!!! thanks for listing.....

Ed