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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 1/16/2015 5:58:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/16/2015 5:58:19 PM EST by PaulOCG]
For all of the Missouri guys who bought SIG braces, please be careful and don't end up in the federal pound me in the @$$ prison for shouldering your SIG braces:

http://www.osagecountyguns.com/blog/news/atf-issues-official-notice-on-pistol-braces/

We called our friend who is a product manager at SIG as soon as we got it (he hadn't heard about it yet), then put it up on our blog. I don't want to see any Missourians end up in jail if you bring your pistol with a PSB to the range!
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 6:06:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By PaulOCG:
For all of the Missouri guys who bought SIG braces, please be careful and don't end up in the federal pound me in the @$$ prison for shouldering your SIG braces:

http://www.osagecountyguns.com/blog/news/atf-issues-official-notice-on-pistol-braces/

We called our friend who is a product manager at SIG as soon as we got it (he hadn't heard about it yet), then put it up on our blog. I don't want to see any Missourians end up in jail if you bring your pistol with a PSB to the range!
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I had a feeling something like this was going to happen...

Whats a stamp like 20.00s more than that goofy brace anyway??? I'd rather go that route anyway, just sucks about the paper work and wait...
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 6:16:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 7:12:14 PM EST
what do you expect when dealers advertise the brace as an alternative to an sbr , people make you-tube videos and every tom dick and harry has to write a letter to the atf asking permission to use the brace as a stock .
chalk this one up to the shooting public shooting their self in the foot .
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 7:56:10 PM EST
Frankly, I wouldn't worry about it.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 8:07:33 PM EST
SIG is getting EXACTLY what they wanted.... what's that they wanted their product made illegal.... You bet. This is the setup for a lawsuit challenging technical branches ability to whatever you wanted.

Link Posted: 1/16/2015 8:20:03 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Chapman:
I have no words for my hatred of the fucking ATF.
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The ATF has it's place - the problem really is the NFA classifications of short barrel rifles and suppressors. AR-variant pistols are even more compact than an SBR and there haven't been problems with those. As far as I know there isn't a statistic of a crime committed with a legally purchased suppressor. And why would you go through background checks before committing a crime with your suppressor when you can get a thread adapter and an oil filter from your local hardware store then throw it away afterwards? Sometimes the laws do nothing more than make ill-informed people feel better at the expense of freedoms of the entire society. That shouldn't be too shocking since that's what 50% of the federal government does with all revenue collected from taxes.

I was contemplating putting a SBX brace on a pistol lower I built a couple years ago, but at this point I'm thinking I might be happier building an upper with a lightweight profile 14.5" barrel, PWS 12" rail, and a pinned flash suppressor/comp. I have all of the parts beyond the barrel and gas block. At least then I could take it out of state if I wanted to without having to get the government's blessing.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 8:48:51 PM EST
I intend to use my arm brace as an arm brace.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 10:11:30 PM EST
I'm not sure what the Sig brace dimensions are, but would an A2 buffer tube work in place of a pistol buffer tube? If so, couldn't you have part of the buffer tube extending partially past the Sig brace, therefore technically shouldering the buffer tube? Since you can legally shoulder a buffer tube, right? Thoughts?
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 11:26:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Revo18tm:
I'm not sure what the Sig brace dimensions are, but would an A2 buffer tube work in place of a pistol buffer tube? If so, couldn't you have part of the buffer tube extending partially past the Sig brace, therefore technically shouldering the buffer tube? Since you can legally shoulder a buffer tube, right? Thoughts?
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Don't ask...
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:26:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 12:27:42 AM EST by leo84]
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Originally Posted By smullen:
Don't ask...
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Originally Posted By smullen:
Originally Posted By Revo18tm:
I'm not sure what the Sig brace dimensions are, but would an A2 buffer tube work in place of a pistol buffer tube? If so, couldn't you have part of the buffer tube extending partially past the Sig brace, therefore technically shouldering the buffer tube? Since you can legally shoulder a buffer tube, right? Thoughts?
Don't ask...



What you have basically stated is the whole reason sig has done this and the MPX suppressor... its all a big plan to go after the ATF technical branch being able to arbitrarily make up whatever rules they want.

It was painfully obvious that the sig brace was made for a stock replacement anybody who believes otherwise.... come on.... seriously.... that's the story your really going to go with .... these aren't my pants is a better story that that...

This will be interesting to see what happens when this is finally resolved in court.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:32:12 AM EST
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Originally Posted By PaulOCG:

The ATF has it's place - the problem really is the NFA classifications of short barrel rifles and suppressors. AR-variant pistols are even more compact than an SBR and there haven't been problems with those. As far as I know there isn't a statistic of a crime committed with a legally purchased suppressor. And why would you go through background checks before committing a crime with your suppressor when you can get a thread adapter and an oil filter from your local hardware store then throw it away afterwards? Sometimes the laws do nothing more than make ill-informed people feel better at the expense of freedoms of the entire society. That shouldn't be too shocking since that's what 50% of the federal government does with all revenue collected from taxes.

I was contemplating putting a SBX brace on a pistol lower I built a couple years ago, but at this point I'm thinking I might be happier building an upper with a lightweight profile 14.5" barrel, PWS 12" rail, and a pinned flash suppressor/comp. I have all of the parts beyond the barrel and gas block. At least then I could take it out of state if I wanted to without having to get the government's blessing.
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Originally Posted By PaulOCG:
Originally Posted By Chapman:
I have no words for my hatred of the fucking ATF.

The ATF has it's place - the problem really is the NFA classifications of short barrel rifles and suppressors. AR-variant pistols are even more compact than an SBR and there haven't been problems with those. As far as I know there isn't a statistic of a crime committed with a legally purchased suppressor. And why would you go through background checks before committing a crime with your suppressor when you can get a thread adapter and an oil filter from your local hardware store then throw it away afterwards? Sometimes the laws do nothing more than make ill-informed people feel better at the expense of freedoms of the entire society. That shouldn't be too shocking since that's what 50% of the federal government does with all revenue collected from taxes.

I was contemplating putting a SBX brace on a pistol lower I built a couple years ago, but at this point I'm thinking I might be happier building an upper with a lightweight profile 14.5" barrel, PWS 12" rail, and a pinned flash suppressor/comp. I have all of the parts beyond the barrel and gas block. At least then I could take it out of state if I wanted to without having to get the government's blessing.


Oh every person in the ATF has their place. In the employment line!
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:27:24 AM EST
^^^THIS^^^ x10, I'm just waiting on my stamp to come in, but I have others that will not e getting a stamp
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 4:59:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 5:02:50 PM EST by eric10mm]
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:05:12 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Sheddy:
Oh every person in the ATF has their place. In the employment line!
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LOL - there's certainly days like yesterday where I feel that way. We are taking it in the shorts unloading all of the braces we have in stock. Imagine the companies that invested in R&D and tooled up to make these really nice pistol buffer tubes for the SIG brace. I still think it's a good product and people will shoulder it away from the prying eyes of the ATF. I'm not advocating that, but I'm sure it will go on. The benefit is that it can be transported like a pistol where it's not so easy to move an SBR over the country (especially when IL is just to the east of us).

One day we have a little bit of freedom, the next day an unelected bureaucrat picks up his pen and his phone and it's gone.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:05:45 PM EST
Not gonna risk it. Sold mine today, now I've got to figure out E-Forms.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 9:42:13 AM EST
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Originally Posted By leo84:
This will be interesting to see what happens when this is finally resolved in court.
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I doubt it ever goes to court. It'll be just one more uncontested infringement.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 2:14:10 PM EST
Based on their definition of "redesign" used in the ruling, a lot of normal practices would now be illegal.

The biggest one is firing a pistol with two hands. Since pistols are defined as being designed for one handed use, the moment you put a second hand on the pistol, you "redesign" for two handed use. This would make the pistol fall under the AoW classification, unless it's 26" or longer.

Shouldering the buffer tube is also just as bad as shouldering the brace with this logic.

The new position is unenforceable and cannot stand up in court.

Link Posted: 1/18/2015 2:33:30 PM EST
Does anyone have a source to any FBI or ATF statistics showing how many SBRs were used in crimes, in comparison to a standard length rifle?

I'm curious just what the point of NFA and SBR being related are to begin with.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 2:50:45 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Brassaholic13:
Does anyone have a source to any FBI or ATF statistics showing how many SBRs were used in crimes, in comparison to a standard length rifle?

I'm curious just what the point of NFA and SBR being related are to begin with.
View Quote


Just after WWII, the thing to do was pick up a used BAR and take a hacksaw to the barrel if you where in the mob. That is 'basically' why the stamps started, $200 back in the day was enough of a deterrent to keep the general population from doing it.

The first person to write the ATF about the price of stamps should be shot...twice...with rock salt to the face balls. Inflation would put it somewhere north of $2,600 so DON'T FKING WHINE ABOUT $200!
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 3:12:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2015 3:14:13 PM EST by leo84]
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Originally Posted By sea2summit:


Just after WWII, the thing to do was pick up a used BAR and take a hacksaw to the barrel if you where in the mob. That is 'basically' why the stamps started, $200 back in the day was enough of a deterrent to keep the general population from doing it.

The first person to write the ATF about the price of stamps should be shot...twice...with rock salt to the face balls. Inflation would put it somewhere north of $2,600 so DON'T FKING WHINE ABOUT $200!
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Originally Posted By sea2summit:
Originally Posted By Brassaholic13:
Does anyone have a source to any FBI or ATF statistics showing how many SBRs were used in crimes, in comparison to a standard length rifle?

I'm curious just what the point of NFA and SBR being related are to begin with.


Just after WWII, the thing to do was pick up a used BAR and take a hacksaw to the barrel if you where in the mob. That is 'basically' why the stamps started, $200 back in the day was enough of a deterrent to keep the general population from doing it.

The first person to write the ATF about the price of stamps should be shot...twice...with rock salt to the face balls. Inflation would put it somewhere north of $2,600 so DON'T FKING WHINE ABOUT $200!


Incorrect on the time frame, you're about a decade off.

The NFA was enacted in 1934 in response to prohibition related gangland crime (alcohol was again legal at the time of passing BTW 1933).


Link Posted: 1/18/2015 4:50:55 PM EST
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Originally Posted By sea2summit:


Just after WWII, the thing to do was pick up a used BAR and take a hacksaw to the barrel if you where in the mob. That is 'basically' why the stamps started, $200 back in the day was enough of a deterrent to keep the general population from doing it.

The first person to write the ATF about the price of stamps should be shot...twice...with rock salt to the face balls. Inflation would put it somewhere north of $2,600 so DON'T FKING WHINE ABOUT $200!
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Originally Posted By sea2summit:
Originally Posted By Brassaholic13:
Does anyone have a source to any FBI or ATF statistics showing how many SBRs were used in crimes, in comparison to a standard length rifle?

I'm curious just what the point of NFA and SBR being related are to begin with.


Just after WWII, the thing to do was pick up a used BAR and take a hacksaw to the barrel if you where in the mob. That is 'basically' why the stamps started, $200 back in the day was enough of a deterrent to keep the general population from doing it.

The first person to write the ATF about the price of stamps should be shot...twice...with rock salt to the face balls. Inflation would put it somewhere north of $2,600 so DON'T FKING WHINE ABOUT $200!


Shouldn't need a stamp or permission for that matter, to own a short barrel rifle.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:12:54 PM EST
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Originally Posted By V:
I intend to use my arm brace as an arm brace. All the way to my shoulder!!
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Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:13:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2015 5:14:32 PM EST by delorean]
Originally Posted By Brassaholic13:
Does anyone have a source to any FBI or ATF statistics showing how many SBRs were used in crimes, in comparison to a standard length rifle?

I'm curious just what the point of NFA and SBR being related are to begin with.
View Quote


Two.

Not sure if they were sbr's or automatics. Both by cops that had stolen them. That's out of more than a million form 1 & form 4's.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:23:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By delorean:


Two.

Not sure if they were sbr's or automatics. Both by cops that had stolen them. That's out of more than a million form 1 & form 4's.
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Originally Posted By delorean:
Originally Posted By Brassaholic13:
Does anyone have a source to any FBI or ATF statistics showing how many SBRs were used in crimes, in comparison to a standard length rifle?

I'm curious just what the point of NFA and SBR being related are to begin with.


Two.

Not sure if they were sbr's or automatics. Both by cops that had stolen them. That's out of more than a million form 1 & form 4's.



BAN COPS!!! It's for the children!
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:52:09 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Brassaholic13:
Shouldn't need a stamp or permission for that matter, to own a short barrel rifle gun.
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Fixed.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 6:14:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By leo84:


Incorrect on the time frame, you're about a decade off.

The NFA was enacted in 1934 in response to prohibition related gangland crime (alcohol was again legal at the time of passing BTW 1933).


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Originally Posted By leo84:
Originally Posted By sea2summit:
Originally Posted By Brassaholic13:
Does anyone have a source to any FBI or ATF statistics showing how many SBRs were used in crimes, in comparison to a standard length rifle?

I'm curious just what the point of NFA and SBR being related are to begin with.


Just after WWII, the thing to do was pick up a used BAR and take a hacksaw to the barrel if you where in the mob. That is 'basically' why the stamps started, $200 back in the day was enough of a deterrent to keep the general population from doing it.

The first person to write the ATF about the price of stamps should be shot...twice...with rock salt to the face balls. Inflation would put it somewhere north of $2,600 so DON'T FKING WHINE ABOUT $200!


Incorrect on the time frame, you're about a decade off.

The NFA was enacted in 1934 in response to prohibition related gangland crime (alcohol was again legal at the time of passing BTW 1933).




Can we agree you are correct on the timeline and I'm correct on the gun

Link Posted: 1/18/2015 6:51:36 PM EST
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Originally Posted By GoGop:

Fixed.
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Originally Posted By GoGop:
Originally Posted By Brassaholic13:
Shouldn't need a stamp or permission for that matter, to own a short barrel rifle gun.

Fixed.


Thanks for correcting my error.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 8:04:40 AM EST
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Originally Posted By notinfringed:
Based on their definition of "redesign" used in the ruling, a lot of normal practices would now be illegal.

The biggest one is firing a pistol with two hands. Since pistols are defined as being designed for one handed use, the moment you put a second hand on the pistol, you "redesign" for two handed use. This would make the pistol fall under the AoW classification, unless it's 26" or longer.

Shouldering the buffer tube is also just as bad as shouldering the brace with this logic.

The new position is unenforceable and cannot stand up in court.

View Quote


At the end of the day, they'll likely do whatever they feel like with no repercussions. They've done a lot worse and they're still around.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 10:38:19 AM EST
I will continue to use mine as a pistol. Missouri gave us pistols for Alternative Methods season, and I'm going to use my pistol for that as I always intended. I didn't build a "defacto SBR" - I already have a couple of registered SBR's.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 5:57:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By sea2summit:


Can we agree you are correct on the timeline and I'm correct on the gun

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Originally Posted By sea2summit:
Originally Posted By leo84:
Originally Posted By sea2summit:
Originally Posted By Brassaholic13:
Does anyone have a source to any FBI or ATF statistics showing how many SBRs were used in crimes, in comparison to a standard length rifle?

I'm curious just what the point of NFA and SBR being related are to begin with.


Just after WWII, the thing to do was pick up a used BAR and take a hacksaw to the barrel if you where in the mob. That is 'basically' why the stamps started, $200 back in the day was enough of a deterrent to keep the general population from doing it.

The first person to write the ATF about the price of stamps should be shot...twice...with rock salt to the face balls. Inflation would put it somewhere north of $2,600 so DON'T FKING WHINE ABOUT $200!


Incorrect on the time frame, you're about a decade off.

The NFA was enacted in 1934 in response to prohibition related gangland crime (alcohol was again legal at the time of passing BTW 1933).




Can we agree you are correct on the timeline and I'm correct on the gun


It was a 100% tax on the defacto weapon of choice of most of the gangs of the time, the Thompson 1927, in the mid late 1930's a new Thompson at most local hardware stores was about $200.00. and while affordable to those with illicit funds from bootlegging ( Prohibition made a lot of people wealthy) the basic person suffering the great Depression and the "New Deal" made about $200.00 in three months time.
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