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Posted: 1/9/2008 5:13:07 AM EST
I’m not one to unnecessarily bash someone’s business, but if you have an unusually bad experience, then I think it should be shared with others.  If enough people share bad experiences, it paints a clear picture of which businesses to avoid.  I had such an experience with D & R Arms located in Portsmouth, VA.  I was looking for a small, personal defense weapon which I could easily carry in my pocket.  The owner of D & R Arms showed me the Keltec .380 P-3AT, which he himself carried in his pocket.  He said that it was the smallest handgun Keltec made.  WRONG, as I found out later, the P-32 is shorter, not as tall and weighs 1.7 oz less.  He didn’t have the P-32 in stock at the time, but assured me the P-3AT was the smallest Keltec made.  The price was $299 for the P-3AT, and, I should have done more research first, but I liked the gun and bought it on the spot.  Two days later I went to A & P Arms shooting range in Virginia Beach.  Great Dealer!  They had the P-3AT for $249, fifty dollars cheaper than D & R, and it included free use of the shooting range, a $50 value.  OK, so I should have done more research, but I just had to go back and tell D & R that, first of all the P-3AT is not the smallest Keltec and secondly of the big price difference.  The gun has not been fired, so I thought that maybe I could exchange it for the P-32, or maybe he would at least apologize and give me some free ammo.  Not a chance.  He disputed my claims that the P-32 was smaller than the .380, (check out their specs on their web site), pointed to the “no returns sign” on the wall, turned his back to me and sat down at his computer and tried to ignore me.  I informed him that I would not be a return customer, even though I live in the neighborhood, and he said “Fine, get out of my store and don’t come back”.  I won’t, and I hope you don’t either.  D & R is much more expensive, considerably less knowledgeable about his products and very arrogant.  Drive a little farther down the road to A & P Arms.
cmmg
Link Posted: 1/9/2008 9:57:48 AM EST
[#1]
Well, I would recommend that you only go to a gun dealer to feel a gun up, not to get advice.  Too many times I have heard non-factual ramblings while browsing around at a dealer.  And guess what, there is nothing some gun dealers hate more than to me told they are incorrect about a gun.

We've all heard the stories about such things, and many of us have experienced the same things.  That's just something I've come to expect.  And hey, with all the stress the owners are under, I can understand the grief that they are under.

It's as difficult to find an honest gun store as it is to find an honest automotive mechanic.

But I think the blame lies on you.  If you wanted a P32, then get a P32.  Don't get the P3AT.

I will say that it was wrong of him to turn on you like he did.  But I don't know his side of the story, I only know yours.  I know nothing of your tone, body language, previous events, and exact dialogue.

And I think it's sad that this is your very first post to ARFcom... but welcome.
Link Posted: 1/9/2008 10:15:21 AM EST
[#2]
so you make your first post, one about a bad gun buying experiance? i think you got butt hurt because you bought a gun then found it cheaper elsewhere. thats your problem not his. as far as the P3AT and the P32, maybe he just didnt know because he has never sold on or maybe he was told the P3AT was the smallest in there line, who knows. maybe he thought you were interested in a .380, if thats the case then yes the P3AT is the smallest .380 in there line up. to me if you came back into my store bitching about you could have bought the gun cheaper somewhere else then asking about getting some free ammo i would tell you to piss off as well.
Link Posted: 1/9/2008 11:58:29 AM EST
[#3]
Fish-

Sorry to hear about your bad experience.   Let it be a lesson learned, do your homework before you buy.  Also, how about at least introducing yourself when joining an entirely new forum, not just a complaint right out of the box.

This site is great and there are a ton of really knowledgeable folks when it comes to firearms.  This is the sight to do your homework on..... Good luck, welcome!
Link Posted: 1/9/2008 1:49:37 PM EST
[#4]
I have been in D&R arms and was not impressed with their store or their customer service.  The prices on their limited stock were not impressive either.  I think they are a class 3 transfer dealer, but I've heard that they charge $100 for transfering NFA firearms.

First of all I don't know of any gun shops, reputable or not, that allow returns on ammo or firearms, so this shop isn't any different than the good ones.  I've been in your shoes in so far as paying too much for a gun and it has taught me to thoroughly research my gun purchases.  That was the first and last gun that I didn't research quality and price and it was painful to have to sell it for half of what I bought it for.

The big problem with D&R and others like it is that they do a poor job of promoting the industry.  I have bought guns at Bob's and paid a primium over other dealers prices because I get exceptional service there, and because their selection is broad.  A&P and the Armory also usually have very good sercice and sometimes great prices.  They are both usually better on price than most of the stores in the area when it comes to guns and sometimes on ammo (mostly the Armory).

Gun shop employees and owners should consider themselves more of emisaries of gun rights and take care to promote gun ownership better (its their livelyhood afterall!) and I'm sorry you're experience was so unsatasfactory.  Furthermore, these people can't be expected to be as knowledgable as you need them to be and it may seem that the owner was only interested in making a sale, and not a long term sales relationship.

The P3AT is a very slim, small, pocket gun and 380acp has better ballistics than the other slightly smaller Kel-Tec does.  I've seen both guns side by side and the difference is negligable.  Ammunition choices are better and more readily available, too.  If you really want a P-32, you will have no trouble selling your P3AT for around $250 and, though you will be taking a loss, sometimes the best education is the kind you have to pay for.  I lost more like $250 when I was in a similar boat.
Link Posted: 1/9/2008 2:03:26 PM EST
[#5]
I have carried a P3AT since they first came out.  IMO it is better than the smaller caliber.
Link Posted: 1/10/2008 3:18:55 AM EST
[#6]
Sorry, I gotta ask this....You bought the pistol to carry in your pocket....please say you have a concealed carry license.
If not then you should probably take the course and the license BEFORE you start carrying a pistol in your pocket.
I have never been to D&R, but I think you made a better choice with the .380 than a .32.  From the research I have done, it would seem he steered you in a better direction.  The .32  is a smaller gun, but you are comparing apples & oranges 32 to 380.

So now for better or worse, you own a gun welcome to the family.  Get a gun lock or lockable box.  Join the NFA and VCDL, get some training, get a license to concealed carry, get a bunch of ammo and PRACTICE.  BTW, if you ever want to shoot at A&P without waiting hours for a lane, consider a membership, they are very busy.

Also, remember if you get caught carrying concealed without a permit, this may be the last gun you ever own (legally).

Sorry you got the harsh economics lesson you got, but FREE ammo ???
My 2 cents.

Mike
Link Posted: 1/10/2008 3:28:41 AM EST
[#7]

Quoted:
Sorry, I gotta ask this....You bought the pistol to carry in your pocket....please say you have a concealed carry license.
If not then you should probably take the course and the license BEFORE you start carrying a pistol in your pocket.
I have never been to D&R, but I think you made a better choice with the .380 than a .32.  

Sorry you got the harsh economics lesson, but FREE ammo ???
My 2 cents.

Mike




At least he'll be able to defend himself against a small female attacker
Link Posted: 1/10/2008 4:12:12 AM EST
[#8]
OK, first of all it is not so much that I paid too much for the gun as it is the attitude of the dealer.  I don’t mind paying a little more sometimes in order to deal with a neighborhood business.  But this guy was just down right rude.  I didn’t storm into his store and demand a refund.  I know the policy of most gun dealers is no refund.  I thought that since this guy gave me some bad information, that I should go back to the store, tell him of my dissatisfaction and see what he would do.  If you were treated like that at Joe Blow’s Auto repair you wouldn’t go back either.  I thought that I should tell others of my experience.  If you still want to shop there, that is your business, but I won’t, and it isn’t because of the price, but because of his attitude.

As for the P-3AT, I do like the gun and intend to keep it.  I wanted something smaller than my Glock 40 to carry with me.  And yes, I have had a concealed weapon permit for a number of years.

Thanks for the comments, that is what these forums are for.

P.S to Rosenrot…..I’m not sure that I want to defend myself against a small female attacker!
Link Posted: 1/10/2008 4:19:38 AM EST
[#9]

Quoted:
so you make your first post, one about a bad gun buying experiance? i think you got butt hurt because you bought a gun then found it cheaper elsewhere. thats your problem not his. as far as the P3AT and the P32, maybe he just didnt know because he has never sold on or maybe he was told the P3AT was the smallest in there line, who knows. maybe he thought you were interested in a .380, if thats the case then yes the P3AT is the smallest .380 in there line up. to me if you came back into my store bitching about you could have bought the gun cheaper somewhere else then asking about getting some free ammo i would tell you to piss off as well.


^^^ Winner ^^^

I work at a FFL in Northern Virginia and all gun sales are final.  Period.

Whether the guy behind the counter was mis-informed about which Kel-Tec is the smallest, or was just telling you what you wanted to hear to buy the gun, it's your fault for not doing your research before committing to the purchase ("buyer beware", remember?).  Granted this doesn't mean he should be a jerk to you in his store, but then again, YOU were acting like a jerk in HIS store, so his rule is the law of that particular parcel of land.

So you had a bad experience with D&R Arms, but it sounds like D&R Arms had a bad experience with you too.  And having seen it first hand, if you come into a gun store and piss off the owner or employees there, don't be surprised if your decision to never return is a mutual one, and might be enforced by a trespassing complaint if you return.

I think there's two things you need to take with you from this experience:

1) You're right, don't go back to D&R Arms, if for no other reason than that you're most likely persona non grata there now, and

2) Research, research, research your purchase decision before you make it (not after) and then research, research, research some more just to verify you're getting the deal you consider to be the best avaiable.  You have a gigantic website at your fingertips right now which can easily assist you with that endeavor.  Use it to your advantage.

_MaH
Link Posted: 1/10/2008 4:20:01 AM EST
[#10]

Quoted:
P.S to Rosenrot…..I’m not sure that I want to defend myself against a small female attacker!


Thats about the only thing a .32 would be effective against.

Here is a bit of advise, sell the P3AT and buy a Glock 21 or a full sized 1911.
Link Posted: 1/10/2008 4:59:53 AM EST
[#11]
I have been to D&R many times, mainly to look.  However, I did go through his shop to do my first SBR and I had an absolutely positive experience with him.  I would agree that the prices around the area can be steep but I have found the best place to buy handguns is at the gunshows.  That is where you can really get the good deals.  I go to the gun stores and decide what I want, then go to the gunshow to purchase.
Welcome to the site.
Link Posted: 1/10/2008 3:30:25 PM EST
[#12]
Link Posted: 1/10/2008 3:43:34 PM EST
[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
P.S to Rosenrot…..I’m not sure that I want to defend myself against a small female attacker!

Thats about the only thing a .32 would be effective against.

Here is a bit of advise, sell the P3AT and buy a Glock 21 or a full sized 1911.


Well, we did have a family friend (RIP) who carried a S&W Highway Patrolman (Model 28, an N-frame!) in his pocket of his overalls!



Link Posted: 1/11/2008 6:04:43 AM EST
[#14]
Link Posted: 1/12/2008 8:55:48 AM EST
[#15]
My boss just did a transfer of a M11/9 with D&R yesterday.  He raved about the service and how he was treated.  Hate to say this, but it sounds to me that your attitude was the one out of line.
Link Posted: 1/13/2008 8:27:29 PM EST
[#16]
Nice introduction of yourself, and by the way A&P Arms is well known in the VAHTF for having not so great service and terrible prices, so you're probably not making any fans for yourself.
Link Posted: 1/15/2008 4:34:11 AM EST
[#17]
Guns and Ammo Warehouse is where its at!

GREAT SECLECTION, PRICES ALWAYS BELOW RETAIL,  and FRIENDLY *KNOWLEDGABLE* STAFF!

They stock and transfer Class 3 items for $40

Dave (the owner) strives to build long term mutually beneficial relaionships.  The customer is NOT always right, but he'll bend over backwards to show you that he at least cares and WANTS to make whatevers wrong right.

Hands down the finest shop in NOVA!!

~My .02
Link Posted: 1/15/2008 6:10:08 AM EST
[#18]
big difference in NOVA and the tidewater areas of Va.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:46:24 AM EST
[#19]
Armory has P3AT's for $247.00 and they have the best customer service I have seen anywhere in Hampton Roads, regardless of what type of business.
Link Posted: 1/22/2008 6:50:12 AM EST
[#20]

Quoted:
Guns and Ammo Warehouse is where its at!

GREAT SECLECTION, PRICES ALWAYS BELOW RETAIL,  

LOL , 2300 on a PS90 is BELOW retail ?

and FRIENDLY *KNOWLEDGABLE* STAFF!




Right, they told me my FNMI marked barrel was not really made by FN it was really a Wilson


They stock and transfer Class 3 items for $40

I have never seen anything in stock, but I will look next time

Dave (the owner) strives to build long term mutually beneficial relaionships.  The customer is NOT always right, but he'll bend over backwards to show you that he at least cares and WANTS to make whatevers wrong right.

I do admit that the times I have been in there when dave was working he was very nice

Hands down the finest shop in NOVA!!

~My .02
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