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Link Posted: 2/13/2020 8:43:48 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lokifox:
Wow.

Better redefine 75 years of precedent law to fit your sensibilities.
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Originally Posted By lokifox:
Originally Posted By Bassgasm:
Originally Posted By lokifox:
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
Originally Posted By lokifox:

This is about removing firearms that liberals don't like from the season, plain and simple.
Eh, maybe. I don't really buy that is the only factor at play in this specific issue.
To me it seems much more likely they are responding to feedback from archers and muzzleloader hunters by keeping 11 round semi autos out of the woods during the bow/crossbow/muzzleloader season.

Right or wrong, there are competing interest here.

A TC in .243 is different in rate and volume of fire than an AR pistol, and an AR pistol has different range limitations than a revolver.

If you exclude the looks of a firearm it seems to me an AR pistol Has much more in common with the 30-30s and SKS rifles sometimes used in firearms season. From an ethical take perspective, an AR pistol is kinda cheating in a handgun season. Just for the record I also think the TC and such chambered in rifle calibers don't belong in a handgun season. While we are on the subject, crossbows are kinda cheating in bow season, and they fit better in alternative methods.
I'm not sure if you are aware of the performance of modern straight walled pistols, but there are many that can easily make ethical shots on deer at 150+ yards.

A 357 Maximum as a 150+ yard pistol.

A 10mm Auto with a red dot is easily capable of 100 yard shots.

A modern smokeless inline muzzle loader can make 250+ yard precision shots.

MDC is again at it with their bullshit where if you can pay you can play. Last year they took away landowner tags for people who can't afford $100,000+ pieces of property. Now they're attempting to take away an effective tool from hunters that HAS BEEN LEGALLY ALLOWED FOR AT LEAST FIVE YEARS.

The shit of the whole thing is yeah, it's great that many of us can afford to blow $1500 on a fancy new regulation compliant toy - but there are a lot more people that can't and MDC is kicking them out of the woods.

The deer population is still incredibly high and the number of hunters is dwindling. It is proven that lowering densities slows the spread of disease. Just what exactly is MDC trying to accomplish here? Furthermore, the cartridges I listed above are heavy recoiling and unpleasant to many people. Is MDC intentionally trying to cause people to wound deer with inferior cartridges or are they just trying to discourage people from hunting?
The only people that think AR pistols are actually pistols are the dumb fucks at the ATF.

There's also a reason that MDC made an alternative methods season instead of another rifle season.

I don't know very many people that are capable of making 100+ yard shots with actual handguns or that would even be comfortable hunting with a handgun as their primary. Those limitations equalize with the other methods of the season.

As far as population control goes, I don't know the statistics. If MDC had reason to believe there was a problem, it would make sense for them to expand hunting seasons. Maybe they're not there yet or something.
Wow.

Better redefine 75 years of precedent law to fit your sensibilities.
I don't base my definitions on those of governments.

I also differentiate between conversations of RKBA vs those of conservation. You and I should be able to walk into our friendly neighborhood gun stores with cash and walk out the same day with whatever we have the money to pay for. Conservation is a different topic.

There are reasons to limit how much of what can be hunted when and how. I don't like government being involved and using stuff like this as a revenue collection opportunity, but that's better than wasteful killing of game animals and species being hunted into extinction which were legitimate problems being faced before intervention.

That leads us back to alternative method season. Presumably, alternative method season exists because it's supposed to be more challenging and more limited than rifle season. People showing up with semiauto rifle-ish firearms with funny looking not-stocks on them defeats the purpose of that entirely.

If the deer are overpopulated, maybe MDC should make another rifle season, extend the existing rifle season, or up the tag limits. But it appears they haven't reached that conclusion yet.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 10:52:41 PM EST
It's working fine right now, but people keep talking about how we should change it.    It's another deer season, that weeds out a lot of the people whose only hunting each year is the November portion of deer season, so why not just enjoy it? Why try to change or justify everything? If we start going to traditional/primitive, there will be the same arguments on how far to carry it. Some would say not to use an Atlatl, unless it's made using only period correct tools.

MDC; Here's a season where you can hunt deer again.

Me; Thank you.

Many others; Why? Why with that weapon? Why not with my favorite weapon? Why not make it like the November portion? Why not eliminate all the weapons I don't have or want? Why not make it all primitive? How do you define primitive?

Black powder sounds good. Maybe, but sticks have been around longer than powder. Maybe we'll allow it, but only loose powder. No pellets, no 209 primers, etc.
Inlines? They've been around for a while, but flintlocks/sidelocks are truly primitive.

Archery sounds good. Yeah, but no crossbows.
Okay, we'll use compounds. Hey, why those fancy compounds? Primitive bows didn't have wheels.
Hey, no recurves either; they came along after long bows.
Long bows? Only if you make them out of wood (not those fiberglass things), don't use those store-bought bows, and don't use any kind of sights/release.
Metal/carbon arrows? That's not primitive. You should make your own wooden arrows and do some flint knapping to make your own broadheads.

Pretty sure we should be making our own hunting clothes, not carry any kind of electronics, no optics unless they're period correct, etc.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 11:04:25 PM EST
...and yes, I've been in these kind of discussions where people have advocated for all of those things. Those were usually mild though, compared to arguing about how many deer people can shoot, how old the deer have to be, and how big their antlers have to be.
Link Posted: 2/14/2020 8:03:05 AM EST
Back when they went from muzzle loader to alternative methods I knew they were opening a can of worms with this.  I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually goes back to muzzle loader only instead of alternative season.
Link Posted: 2/14/2020 8:08:15 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
Ok, so I really don't get it. You are saying you DO want to be limited in method of take for alternative season, but you want that limitation to be a pistol brace?

I'm still not clear why you are not saying "there should be more rifle season and no alternative season"
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I used to live in Louisiana, which is broken into 10 areas, and in my area the rifle season was from late October to mid January-It was wonderful.
Link Posted: 2/14/2020 8:09:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/14/2020 8:09:51 AM EST by Weekend_Hillbilly]
https://huntfish.mdc.mo.gov/hunting-trapping/species/deer/deer-harvest-reports/deer-harvest-summaries

MDC reports on Alternative Methods seasons

2018-2019 12,109
2012-2013 14,921

Good work guys
Link Posted: 2/14/2020 10:09:59 AM EST
Is there a way to see other comments?
I copied some posts from here to make the following comments:

"This rule change is about removing firearms (AR15 Pistols with Arm Braces) that liberals don’t like from the season.

This rule change will reduce the number of hunters that can take part in this season using affordable AR15 pistols over other more expensive methods.

This rule change discriminates against women, elderly, and the handicapped."
Link Posted: 2/14/2020 11:07:52 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 67Firebird:
It's working fine right now, but people keep talking about how we should change it.    It's another deer season, that weeds out a lot of the people whose only hunting each year is the November portion of deer season, so why not just enjoy it? Why try to change or justify everything? If we start going to traditional/primitive, there will be the same arguments on how far to carry it. Some would say not to use an Atlatl, unless it's made using only period correct tools.

MDC; Here's a season where you can hunt deer again.

Me; Thank you.

Many others; Why? Why with that weapon? Why not with my favorite weapon? Why not make it like the November portion? Why not eliminate all the weapons I don't have or want? Why not make it all primitive? How do you define primitive?

Black powder sounds good. Maybe, but sticks have been around longer than powder. Maybe we'll allow it, but only loose powder. No pellets, no 209 primers, etc.
Inlines? They've been around for a while, but flintlocks/sidelocks are truly primitive.

Archery sounds good. Yeah, but no crossbows.
Okay, we'll use compounds. Hey, why those fancy compounds? Primitive bows didn't have wheels.
Hey, no recurves either; they came along after long bows.
Long bows? Only if you make them out of wood (not those fiberglass things), don't use those store-bought bows, and don't use any kind of sights/release.
Metal/carbon arrows? That's not primitive. You should make your own wooden arrows and do some flint knapping to make your own broadheads.

Pretty sure we should be making our own hunting clothes, not carry any kind of electronics, no optics unless they're period correct, etc.
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But the weird thing is, it's like you are saying: heck yeah it should be a limited season, but it should be limited to exactly what 67Firebird hunts with.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest that for alternative season the hunter should have to make their own bow, just that what amounts to basically rifles should be excluded.

If they're not excluding what are basically modern firearms, then it's kinda pointless to have an alternative season.
Link Posted: 2/15/2020 9:11:06 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
But the weird thing is, it's like you are saying: heck yeah it should be a limited season, but it should be limited to exactly what 67Firebird hunts with.
No, I said leave it as is, and I didn't say that it should be limited either. When asked if it could be another rifle season, I said Okay.  I do utilize a couple of the methods, but I never said limit it to those or anything else. I specifically said that having more choices is better.
I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest that for alternative season the hunter should have to make their own bow, just that what amounts to basically rifles should be excluded.
I didn't say that either, but I was pointing out where it usually goes when people start talking what opportunities they think should be taken away.
If they're not excluding what are basically modern firearms, then it's kinda pointless to have an alternative season.
Why? It's another season we can hunt. Why do you want to take it away, just because you have a problem with terminology?  
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Link Posted: 2/15/2020 9:46:58 AM EST
If I were to advocate for my way of doing it, here's what it would be;

Only one type of tag, and they're good from September 1 until December 31.
All of the methods currently allowed, while still being open to new possibilities.
They'd have to set limits by how many tags they issue (don't like that idea much), or by each person (one buck and one doe, or whatever).

This eliminates all of the infighting regarding what different people think should be allowed in each season, when the seasons should be, too much pressure during certain times, etc. Everyone would have the same chances, could hunt with whatever they chose, and the bow/traditional hunters couldn't whine about the "orange army" anymore. People could also carry a bow for close shots, and a rifle for long shots. That's more opportunity.

That's four months of hunting with pretty much whatever you want, whenever you want.
Link Posted: 2/15/2020 5:10:42 PM EST
The herd is pretty thick here, but I'd like to see more quality bucks.

I'd have a season open to all legal methods for October 1 - 31 December, but you HAVE to fill a doe tag before you take a buck.

A healthy whitetail deer herd should be pretty close to 1:1 male/female. We get there by clearing out does.
Link Posted: 2/15/2020 5:45:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/15/2020 5:46:52 PM EST by 67Firebird]
Just increase the amount of doe tags, and maybe allow party hunting too. Lots of people will stack up the does, whether for themselves or for giving to others. Earn-a-buck is back to controlling everyone, vs letting them choose.

Say someone does everything exactly right, and the buck they've been chasing comes through at first light. Why should they have to let it walk, just because a doe didn't come in first? He may even come in with does, and somebody is stuck with shooting one of the does and scaring him off, or not shooting anything. For some people, that's all they may see during their entire season.
Link Posted: 2/15/2020 5:54:53 PM EST
I grew up around a bunch of folks that would only shoot a buck. Didn't matter if they were a tiny little young buck or whatever, they'd take the tiniest young buck over any doe.
Link Posted: 2/15/2020 6:05:03 PM EST
Yep, and others will shoot every doe they legally can, so it evens out.
Link Posted: 2/15/2020 6:10:02 PM EST
I personally hate the four point rule. I’m a meat hunter and would rather have the big-bodied 6 pointer than the old tough 10.

I have a stack of antlers with no real thought of a use.
Link Posted: 2/15/2020 6:25:08 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
That escalated quickly
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The MDC has run over some rights in the state recently and have really soured their relationship with the people. They’ve banned hog hunting on any federal or state land in the name of population control efficiency.
Link Posted: 2/15/2020 6:33:22 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lokifox:
I personally hate the four point rule.
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 Me too, for the reasons I outlined above. It's just another way that some want to control others. If two bucks came in together I'd probably shoot the bigger one, but I'm not going to pass any legal deer waiting for another one to come by. I love the hunting, and I love shooting them, and I shoot the first legal deer that gives me a shot. That gets more difficult, as people keep looking for ways to make it harder.  "Any Deer" should mean what it says, but it doesn't anymore.

I like mounting them, because it's a great reminder of past hunts. I even have a button buck shoulder mount. I've tried three times to get a doe shoulder mounted, and always get an excuse rather than the mount. (Hair slipped, etc.).
Link Posted: 2/16/2020 3:27:58 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lokifox:

Better yet get enough people to raise hell so we don't have to put up with their liberal bullshit.

When they figure out people are going to use 10" barrels instead of 12" they will change the regulations again.

MDC is run by liberal scum. The director is a lifelong Democrat who has has been working within the party for most of her adult life.
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How is she on the board? Elected, promoted how? Any way to remove this cancer from the MDC?
Link Posted: 2/16/2020 3:32:45 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Pumpkinheaver:
MDC has pissed off a bunch of people in the last few years. Increasing acreage for landowner permits, banning hog hunting on public ground and now this.

A bunch of unelected bureaucrats shouldn’t be able to change the law without consequences.
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Yeah as of next year no landowner permit for us and our 5 acres. So will have to go purchase one now to make the king(MDC) happy.

And this also answers my question how they're on the board, not elected just hired on and promoted within through their tenure
Link Posted: 2/16/2020 7:05:53 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mzM:
No, not a done deal.

https://mdc.mo.gov/about-us/about-regulations/wildlife-code-missouri/definitions

NOTICE TO SUBMIT COMMENTS: Anyone may file a statement in support of or in opposition to this proposed amendment with Regulations Committee Chairman, Department of Conservation, P.O. Box 180, Jefferson City, MO 65102-0180, or via the department's website at https://short.mdc.mo.gov/Z49. To be considered, comments must be received within thirty (30) days after publication of this notice in the Missouri Register. No public hearing is scheduled.

Comment on this proposed regulation
Official public comment period: April 02, 2020 to May 01, 2020


---------------------------
All current proposed regulations here:

https://mdc.mo.gov/about-regulations/wildlife-code-missouri/proposed-regulation-changes

Good for a bookmark.
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Why announce it more than a month before one can comment upon it?

Open up comments now!
Link Posted: 2/20/2020 1:42:14 PM EST
I told them they are singling out ar pistols for political reasons since they admit there have not been any “issues” and they are seeking to classify them out of the handgun category based on measurements even the atf doest recognize.

The response:

“There are several meanings of 'handgun' in common usage, which is confusing for hunters.  This proposed definition incorporates relevant portions of the definition from the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, and statutory firearms definitions to establish one, consistent definition for the purpose of hunting during the alternative methods portion of the firearms deer season.

The proposed definition is not intended to prohibit the use of AR-platform handguns that meet the barrel and overall length requirements.

I will share your message with members of the Department of Conservation's Regulations Committee so they are aware of your opinions.

Thank you for your interest in conservation.”
Link Posted: 2/20/2020 2:39:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/20/2020 2:43:51 PM EST by sanman28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 67Firebird:
I don't know if you can open this without being a member, but here's another thread on this topic;

https://www.missouriwhitetails.com/threads/ar-pistols-no-more-in-alternative.236677/
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The fudd is strong there.

As a MO hunter.....if they want to return "handguns" back to "handguns"....they would be better served saying something like: " anything other than open iron sights are prohibited on a federally defined handgun."  That does, of course, move any scoped firearm into the firearms season.  The way i see it is they either have a deer population problem that they want hunters to help with...or they dont.
Link Posted: 2/20/2020 3:41:14 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sanman28:
The way i see it is they either have a deer population problem that they want hunters to help with...or they dont.
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Agreed. There are so many deer that they don't even require check stations anymore, yet these people advocate further restrictions on weapon types. I just don't get why anyone would seek further government control like that.
Link Posted: 2/20/2020 3:52:53 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 67Firebird:

Agreed. There are so many deer that they don't even require check stations anymore, yet these people advocate further restrictions on weapon types. I just don't get why anyone would seek further government control like that.
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Your MO Whitetail link pretty much sums up the fudd opinion.  They dont want you to use them b/c they dont THINK its the right way.  Doesnt matter if there are deer as far as the eye can see.....you should only hunt with what i say b/c thats how to do it properly.  Not one person can site an example where some guy with an AR pistol had an "unfair" advantage and got the prime buck that some other dipshit had a bead on.
Link Posted: 2/20/2020 4:01:38 PM EST
That's what I tried to get across when I asked how they're damaged by what I use. I can't understand control freaks.
Link Posted: 2/22/2020 3:23:19 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sanman28:
I told them they are singling out ar pistols for political reasons since they admit there have not been any “issues” and they are seeking to classify them out of the handgun category based on measurements even the atf doest recognize.

The response:

“There are several meanings of 'handgun' in common usage, which is confusing for hunters.  This proposed definition incorporates relevant portions of the definition from the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, and statutory firearms definitions to establish one, consistent definition for the purpose of hunting during the alternative methods portion of the firearms deer season.

The proposed definition is not intended to prohibit the use of AR-platform handguns that meet the barrel and overall length requirements.

I will share your message with members of the Department of Conservation's Regulations Committee so they are aware of your opinions.

Thank you for your interest in conservation.”
View Quote
I got the same response.
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 12:51:17 PM EST
Can I play a stupid card here....
I don't see where the definition explicitly states a brace cannot be used, or am I missing something.

That said, I cannot stand MDC and their holier than thou attitude towards everyone.  They have too much money and too much power.  
In my opinion they need to be brought into check with reality and adjusting some funding might do that!
Sorry, I don't post often but after reading this and the thread on the helicopter, well, it pisses me off!
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 2:20:17 PM EST
If the MDC goes back to muzzle loader season instead of alternative methods would the modern in line not be allowed?
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 3:48:43 PM EST
I wouldn't mind seeing shotgun lumped in with alternative.
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 4:04:57 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RU98A:
If the MDC goes back to muzzle loader season instead of alternative methods would the modern in line not be allowed?
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They would be allowed, because they're muzzleloaders. Some people will still whine about it though.
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 4:09:04 PM EST
Inlines have been around for a long time, but whiners usually aren't bothered by facts.

"IN-LINES

A plethora of designs for use with the new percussion principle appeared in the early 1800's. The Swiss genius Pauley invented the paper cap, then invented a percussion muzzleloader in 1808 and breech-loader in 1812. His 1808 patent was the first for a muzzleloading in-line action in which the cock of the sidelock was replaced by a cylindrical hammer driven by a coil spring.

His in-line invention was capitalized on by Dreyse, who worked for Pauly between 1808-14 and who used it as the basis for his 1838 turnbolt design which became the Prussian Needlegun of 1848.

Paul Mauser later used the Dreyse needlegun design as a basis for his tumbolt cartridge rifle of 1868, first patented in the U.S., but adopted by the German military in 1871."

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/a-history-of-muzzleloading/
Link Posted: 2/27/2020 10:44:39 PM EST
My problem with this whole 'change' in definition is that I build a compliant pistol 18 months ago... Specifically to be used on my own land [170 acres].

Under the new rules it doesn't comply.  WTF!

They should grand father in rifles that complied with the old law when it was enacted.

Personally, I believe if you qualify as a 'landowner' there should be no restrictions on your land for you.  Otherwise, you really aren't a landowner.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 10:19:47 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deuskid:
Otherwise, you really aren't a landowner.  
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As long as there is real estate tax, you don't truly own your property.
Link Posted: 2/28/2020 10:22:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/28/2020 10:23:14 AM EST by dab2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 67Firebird:

As long as there is real estate tax, you don't truly own your property.
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Exactly true! Stop paying your real estate taxes and see how long the government will ALLOW you to live in your home...whether paid off or not!
Link Posted: 3/1/2020 10:09:35 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dab2:

Exactly true! Stop paying your real estate taxes and see how long the government will ALLOW you to live in your home...whether paid off or not!
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This we haven't been a truly free nation for a long time now.

Since they want to change the definition of a hand gun from Fed. guide lines how are they going to measure overall length? Is it going to be from the end of the end of the receiver extension to the end of the threaded part of the barrel, or from the brace fully extended to the tip of the muzzle device?

There proposed rule change is to vague and will lead to more MDC jackboots on the necks of hunters.
Link Posted: 3/26/2020 8:50:26 AM EST
Any news on this?

Does MoDoC put out proposals with such a long lead time in hopes we will become complacent before enactment?
Link Posted: 3/26/2020 6:53:24 PM EST
I was just on the MDC web site , they are now taking comments on this proposed change until they vote on it in May sometime  , go to the site and send MDC your comment on their new change they want to make , probable wont change much but it cant hurt , let them know how we feel about this change in the Definition of what a pistol is , ATF has already classified it Legal ,it should then be Legal for Hunting , I sent my comment in this afternoon so its up and working ....
Link Posted: 3/26/2020 8:48:01 PM EST
https://mdc.mo.gov/about-us/about-regulations/wildlife-code-missouri/definitions (scroll to bottom)
    NOTICE TO SUBMIT COMMENTS: Anyone may file a statement in support of or in opposition to this proposed amendment with Regulations Committee Chairman, Department of Conservation, P.O. Box 180, Jefferson City, MO 65102-0180, or via the department’s website at https://short.mdc.mo.gov/Z49. To be considered, comments must be received within thirty (30) days after publication of this notice in the Missouri Register. No public hearing is scheduled.

    Comment on this proposed regulation

    Official public comment period: Apr 02, 2020 to May 01, 2020

    Published in the Missouri Register Apr 01, 2020 Volume 45 Number 5

The official comment period starts on April 2, one week away. If you want to be sure your comments are "considered," just wait and submit your comments then, eh.
Link Posted: 3/26/2020 11:16:13 PM EST
Dont know that the comment I sent today won't be counted or looked at , but thats not a problem , I'll resend my comment after the 2nd of April , I would hope everyone that wants to hunt with the AR pistol will also send there comments , maybe if there are enough negative comments the measure will be voted down , but I'll not be holding my breath on it ....
Link Posted: 3/27/2020 1:13:26 PM EST
I think this is one of those things where they make a decision, but are required to have a comment period before implementation.
Link Posted: 4/3/2020 8:57:31 AM EST
Perhaps they've made a decision but decisions can be reversed.  

Since it is now past 4-2 beginning point for comments ... I'm going to do so.  

I'm going to ask why fix something that isn't broken.  I'm also going to ask why they are creating a more restrictive definition than the federal definition?  Isn't that contrary to the very legislative intent to not have any further restrictions?  

I'm also going to write my state rep and my state senator.  

You can find your representatives by going to this website: https://house.mo.gov/default.aspx

on the left hand side type your address and it'll give you both your rep and your senator and hyper links to contact them.  

I encourage everyone to comment.  

Link Posted: 4/3/2020 3:16:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/3/2020 3:18:34 PM EST by Deuskid]
I sent in my comment this morning and received this email shortly thereafter:

From: Denise Bateman
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 10:29 AM
Subject: RE: Form submission from: Proposed Regulations Comments
To: Deuskid


Mr. Deuskid:

There are several meanings of 'handgun' in common usage, which is confusing for hunters.  This proposed definition incorporates relevant portions of the definition from the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, and statutory firearms definitions to establish one, consistent definition for the purpose of hunting during the alternative methods portion of the firearms deer season.

Thank you for providing your thoughts on this proposed regulation change.  I will share your message with members of the Department of Conservation's Regulations Committee so they are aware of your opinions.

Denise Bateman
Director's Office
Missouri Department of Conservation
P.O. Box 180
Jefferson City, MO  65102
[email protected] 
573-522-4115 X3218


I wonder if any of you who submitted a comment early ever received a reply?  

The next post is my reply to her email to me.  

Link Posted: 4/3/2020 3:20:18 PM EST
From: deuskid
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: Form submission from: Proposed Regulations Comments
To: Denise Bateman


Dear Ms Bateman,

I'm not confused. 

The regulation is clear.  A pistol as defined by the ATF. 

The proposed regulation would change that to be more restrictive than the ATF. 

That is contrary to the philosophy inherent in MO laws and regulations be no more restrictive than federal. 

MDC isn't discussing colloquialisms, slang or general meanings.  It is advocating restricting the formal, regulatory definition of pistol.  It is 'cherry picking' elements from various sources to create a more restrictive definition. 

It is wrong. 

Sincerely. 

deuskid
Link Posted: 4/3/2020 10:29:24 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
Sure, but an AR pistol in 6.5 Grendel with an optic and an SBA3 is a 600 yard gun. And if the shooter misses they can send 10 more in a pretty rapid fashion. You see how that's different, right? Do you think the average bow hunter wants to share their season with that?

I think the point of an alternative methods season was to give hunters who wanted more of a stalking challenge an opportunity to get out and use equipment that has real limitations. With the advent of the AR pistol, the categories of "handguns" needed to be clarified because the AR pistol does not have the same weaknesses as a .44 Mag wheel gun.

Isn't there the possibility that the rule change is based on the capability of the firearms, and not political will?
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In the ranges a bow hunter and 1911 hunter can engage, the 1911 still has the 10 shot edge, and nobody is complaining about it. Actual bullet travel in woodlands isn't 600m when you have a wall of trees that effectively stop bullets before 250m. The terrain will likely interfere, too. I don't hear bowhunters worrying over it. They get months of season with firearms outlawed, vs days with them. There is therefore plenty of stalking challenge time. It's the firearms user who is highly restricted.

If anything what I'm reading is once again, people attempting to make the AR Pistol more than its intended, with blades, or 16" barrels, when the original concept was simply a workaround to own an SBR - by not having a stock. Some just keep poking the bear, others simply work within the rules. Can we use deadfall traps, packs of dogs, or hunt year round? No. Yet those were all legal at one time. We now do have AR Pistols, even sharp sticks. Things change.

If the MDC includes the muzzle device they should know better - it will open a market for short buffers and tube even more, which will reduce the length just enough. Someone building an AR180 Pistol would get around it easily.

Keep complaining about magazines, and you don't know what you might be asking for. I don't want to suggest something we don't want, but if ammo capacity is addressed, then it could go to limiting the amount of ANY projectile in the deer hunters possession to five - 5 - in the field. Arrows, cartridges or lead for muzzle loaders.  Only one weapon allowed. Any takers? No?

Id rather fight over closing the MDC ranges during firearms season. It annoying enough to have gunfire there all day long, plus we lose the downrange backstop area for hunting.

Link Posted: 4/5/2020 5:57:02 PM EST
Damn!

I guess it is ok that regulators.  Career employees dictate to us what our rights are?

I'm disappointed, but maybe I shouldn't be.  

Good Luck.

Link Posted: 5/28/2020 7:16:29 PM EST
Well the jackasses got their way, but fortunately they removed some of the vague wording and added clarification that would have led to issues.

I'm off to spend enough money to feed me for a month to make mine compliant now... Dickheads.

JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. – The Missouri Conservation Commission approved an updated definition of a pistol/handgun from the Missouri Department of Conservation (MDC) for the Wildlife Code of Missouri at its May 28 meeting in Jefferson City. The change provides a formal definition of handguns used for hunting during the alternative-methods portion of the fall deer-hunting season.

Originally called the “muzzleloader portion” of the fall firearms deer season, the portion was renamed “alternative methods” in 2012 and MDC added several hunting methods to provide greater opportunities for hunters. Under the Wildlife Code, methods allowed to take deer during the alternative-methods portion include muzzleloaders and archery methods, crossbows, atlatl, handguns, and air powered firearms .40 caliber or larger.

Long guns, such as rifles and shotguns that fire modern ammunition, are not allowed methods during the alternative methods portion, but are allowed during the other portions of the firearms deer-hunting season.

“With gun manufacturers creating new versions of and adaptions to firearms such as AR-style handguns and shortened versions of AR-15-style rifles, we needed to establish a clear definition of what a handgun is for hunting during the alternative-methods portion of the deer-hunting season,” said MDC Protection Chief Randy Doman. “We’ve had situations where hunters were confused about what defined a handgun and asked for clarification.”

Doman added that the proposed change does NOT prohibit the use of an AR-15 pistol.

“The updated regulation clarifies what a handgun is for deer hunting during the alternative-methods portion,” Doman explained. “We want hunters to be able to confidently identify what handgun configurations, with or without the addition of braces or other accessories, are legal to use during this portion of the deer hunting season. The essential distinguishing characteristic of a handgun is its ability to be operated with one hand, although a second hand can be used as a brace. Any firearm with a total length of over 26 inches is considered a rifle.”

The Commission considered and adjusted the definition based on public input received during a formal comment period in April.

The updated MDC definition of a handgun is, “Any firearm originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one (1) or more barrels when held in one (1) hand, and having a short stock designed to be gripped by one (1) hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s), with a barrel less than sixteen inches (16”) in length, measured from the face of the bolt or standing breech (excluding any muzzle device not permanently attached to the barrel), and an overall length less than twenty-six inches (26”) as measured between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the firearm (excluding any pistol brace, muzzle device, or other firearm accessory not permanently attached to the firearm). The use of a pistol brace is specifically authorized, and a second hand may be used for support when firing.

“There are several meanings of ‘handgun’ in common usage, which is confusing for hunters and Department staff,” Doman said. “Our updated definition incorporates relevant portions of the definitions from the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, and statutory firearms definitions to establish one, consistent definition for hunting during the alternative methods portion of the firearms deer season.”

Doman added that the updated definition of “handgun” does not impact the right to own or possess firearms and is not intended to prohibit the use of AR-platform handguns that meet the barrel and overall length requirements. It also does not prohibit the use of pistol braces. The definition is intended to clearly define a legal hunting method during the alternative-methods portion of the firearms deer hunting season.
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https://mdc.mo.gov/newsroom/mdc-updates-definition-handguns-used-deer-hunting
Link Posted: 5/28/2020 8:32:31 PM EST
I guess I will have to change out the buffer tube on my AR pistol in order to get under 26". I have the Kak Super Sig SB15 buffer tube that puts my 10.5" barreled Ar just over 26"
Link Posted: 5/28/2020 11:40:54 PM EST
My 10.5" is 26.5" OAL, with a removable flash hider, so I'm alright with mine. I just can't put my 20" Bushmaster upper on it anymore.
Link Posted: 5/29/2020 7:58:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/29/2020 7:58:23 AM EST by JBowles]
I'm still confused to what the original confusion was.
Link Posted: 5/29/2020 9:00:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By JBowles:
I'm still confused to what the original confusion was.
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From what I got out of reading everything was that the commission and FUDDS originally wanted to ban the use of AR pistols, especially with braces for deer hunting during the "alternative method" season. It looks like there was enough people that objected that they only changed the regulations to state that the OAL must be under 26". Braces are still allowed.
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