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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/11/2006 12:51:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 3:02:59 PM EDT
Dang, Dang, Dang!!! I would have been there myself but my MAC didn't come in until today while Dave was at the Pit. Oh well next time. Jeff
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:00:24 PM EDT
Awesome
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:10:48 PM EDT
I like that Krink right behind you.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 5:03:59 PM EDT
Thanks for letting me shoot your MAC too. It was great and my boys loved the other smg's.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 7:27:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2006 7:30:56 PM EDT by J_Kelly]
Looks like a bunch of fun I missed out there today. Anyone happen to see my buddy Jeff out there with his new baby a.k.a. HK51?

This would be the guy im talking about.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a277/J_Kelly1016/Photo_081405_001.jpg
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 2:43:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 2:47:38 AM EDT by TheOtherDave]
Yep, saw him!

That's some bullethose you had there Lumpy.... I see poverty in your future! I gues you could call it a Conjugal visit?
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:31:29 AM EDT
J_Kelly,
Hope your buddy is from out of state, a dealer, or LEO since you just posted a pic of him with a NFA shotgun! Wouldnt want the wrong people to see that. Anyway, welcome to the board.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:33:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cybersniper:
J_Kelly,
Hope your buddy is from out of state, a dealer, or LEO since you just posted a pic of him with a NFA shotgun! Wouldnt want the wrong people to see that. Anyway, welcome to the board.



Don't worry its legal in MI since its an AOW.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:40:41 AM EDT
Really, Didnt know MI allowed those. Something about a SB shotgun law? Anyway, dont want to hijack Lumpy's thread about fun at the Pit with a legal debate.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 11:42:43 AM EDT
Okay first, Lumpy congrats on the impending delivery. Looks like awesome fun!

Now, I am TOTALLY confused as to how that short shotgun pictured would be legal here. Okay, it's an AOW. But how is it not still listed as a sbs? Wile we're at it, Lumpy, I was wondering about the shoulder stock on the MAC. I know it's a legal NFA item, but how does it jive with Michigan law? (Referring to sbr status it would seem to acquire with the stock). If NFA gets around that law, then why would NFA registration also not get around a sbs?

I almost came out to the pit today. Wish I had. Starting a new job a week from tomorrow, and I'll be working 7/12s for a month or two, plus an hour commute. Eat, work sleep, repeat......
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 11:42:55 AM EDT
By the way, yes he is a dealer....well his dad is anyway, ever heard of Ray's Surplus?
He does many of the in state gun shows and Knob Creek too.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 11:57:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 12:36:13 PM EDT
Good read Bustoff, thanks. It does still leave a question in my mind though. At one point, you state that one technically may need to register their machine pistol as a pistol in Michigan. If it has a shoulder stock, and is under 26 inches, doesn't that clash with the current opinion (which in effect makes a semi auto rifle under 26 inches a sbr by state law, prohibited in Michigan)? Only difference I see here is the federal NFA status.

Either way, the whole sbr and sbs issue is screwed up by irresponsible laws, whcih really need to be repealed. The federal government has a handle on the definitions and restrictions. Michigan law makers should leave bad enough alone!
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 1:43:52 PM EDT
According to state law definitions a machine gun is specifically defined in MCL 750.224 1 (a). Cox's opinion 7183 of state law says - you got a form 4 approved that's your license to legally possess a machine gun - kinda end of story.

Lumpys M11/9 is a MG it is not an SBR according to the definition below. The AOW you see in the other picture is defined under federal law and does not comply with the definition below as it has been purchased as new vs altered or modified. It was built on a virgin receiver by a FFL C2 SOT. At any rate - I believe all NFA clasifications will soon be answered by Cox in a new opinion, stay tuned.

750.222 Definitions.

(e) “Pistol” means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 30 inches or less in length, or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals itself as a firearm.

(i) “Short-barreled shotgun” means a shotgun having 1 or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or a weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

(k) “Short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having 1 or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

750.224

(1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess any of the following:

(a) A machine gun or firearm that shoots or is designed to shoot automatically more than 1 shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.


MCL 750.224 b is the SBR/SBS statute and they are not allowed unless the ATF has declared them C&R. They are not even allowed to be made or possessed by C3 or C2 FFL SOT's in Michigan.

750.224b Short-barreled shotgun or rifle; manufacture, sale, or possession as felony; penalty;
exceptions; applicability of § 776.20.


Sec. 224b. (1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle.

(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.

(3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to the sale, offering for sale or possession of a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun which the secretary of the treasury of the United States of America, or his delegate, pursuant to U.S.C. title 26, section 5801 through 5872, or U.S.C. title 18, sections 921 through 928, has found to be a curio, relic, antique, museum piece or collector’s item not likely to be used as a weapon, but only if the person selling, offering for sale or possessing the firearm has also fully complied with the provisions of sections 2 and 9 of Act No. 372 of the Public Acts of 1927, as amended, being sections 28.422 and 28.429 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


And then Frank Kelly rears his ugly head again in Attorney Generals Opinion 6280 to confuse everything a bit further.

A firearm containing a stock capable of being contracted or folded to an overall length of 30 inches or less and being fully operable in such contracted or folded condition is a pistol requiring licensure for purchase, carrying or transport, and is subject to safety inspection. A rifle with a barrel of at least 16 inches in length and a stock capable of being contracted or folded to an overall length of less than 26 inches, being fully operable in such contracted or folded condition, is a 'short-barreled rifle' whose sale or possession is prohibited. A shotgun with a barrel of at least 18 inches in length and a stock capable of being contracted or folded to an overall length of less than 26 inches, being fully operable in such contracted or folded condition, is a 'short-barreled shotgun' whose sale or possession is prohibited.

There's more to his opinion at

www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/1980s/op06280.htm

Link Posted: 3/12/2006 3:19:39 PM EDT
Bustoff, thanks again for going to lengths to make things as clear as they can get in the current environment. Thanks more for your work to further clarify and improve the status quo!

Part of my reasoning for this was the fact that I want shotgun similar to that pictured. If I read this correctly, I can have one made by a properly licensed class 2 FFL? Looking forward to anything more the honorable Mr. Cox can contribute to de-mystifying and de-criminalizing the ownership of desireable collectable and just generally cool firearms!

And Lumpy, very sorry to have hijacked your thread. Please feel free to return the "favor", in a new thread I'll start shortly (and again, copngrats on the MAC, look for bargains on 9mm, I got a feeling you're going to go through LOTS!). Hope the form 4 flies to you soon.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 3:29:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TBoneDetroit:
Bustoff, thanks again for going to lengths to make things as clear as they can get in the current environment. Thanks more for your work to further clarify and improve the status quo!

Part of my reasoning for this was the fact that I want shotgun similar to that pictured. If I read this correctly, I can have one made by a properly licensed class 2 FFL? Looking forward to anything more the honorable Mr. Cox can contribute to de-mystifying and de-criminalizing the ownership of desireable collectable and just generally cool firearms!

And Lumpy, very sorry to have hijacked your thread. Please feel free to return the "favor", in a new thread I'll start shortly (and again, copngrats on the MAC, look for bargains on 9mm, I got a feeling you're going to go through LOTS!). Hope the form 4 flies to you soon.



Yes, you can Form 1 an AOW in MI and make it yourself or you can purchase one that was made by an 07/02 FFL. If you Form 1 the AOW, the receiver would have to leave the factory w/o a buttstock and never have one installed and you would pay $200 for the tax stamp to make it. You can also have an 07/02 FFL make an AOW for you (same rules apply about the buttstock) but it would transfer to you on a $5 tax stamp.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 3:54:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 4:42:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 5:41:25 PM EDT by J_Kelly]
Whoa way me to start off some drama with my first post. I have been trying to get on this board for a long time now. I don’t know what the issue was but I was never sent an e-mail confirming anything and when ever I tried to log in it told me wrong password. So then I tried lost pw feature. It said e-mail sent but guess what never came...you got it no e-mail. So I tried signing up as a new member and it told me I was already a member...lol...Well I finally e-mailed the man running the board and he took care of it for me.

I actually tried posting that pic of Jeff with his AOW when he got it last year because I kept reading the debate on here about SBR n AOW’s n what not. I am not the best at all with trying to figure out all the Michigan gun laws, but I do know one thing, and that’s that Jeff has all the approved paper work for that weapon just the way it sits in the picture.

If I am wrong (which I am 99.99% sure I’m not) then it’s an AIRSOFT
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 5:31:28 PM EDT
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