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Posted: 7/2/2005 4:29:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2005 4:39:16 PM EDT by Rutgers]
I know this topic has been discussed many times already, but is there ANY M1 Carbine type that is legal in New Jersey? For example, AR15's are banned in NJ but my Bushmaster rifle is good. Perhaps there are some new production M1 Carbine types out there that don't fall under Jersey's gun ban??

There's a new production M1 Carbine made by AutoOrdnance and perhaps that might be legal considering its not a authentic USGI M1 Carbine. The receiver is marked U.S. Carbine, Cal. 30 M1.


I know, I know, I'm just getting a little desperate here.......
Link Posted: 7/2/2005 5:30:53 PM EDT
If the receiver is marked M1 Carbine, you can forget about it.
Link Posted: 7/2/2005 5:32:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RavenVT100:
If the receiver is marked M1 Carbine, you can forget about it.




yup
Link Posted: 7/2/2005 6:34:52 PM EDT
I believe the new Kahr ( Auto Ordnance ) M1 Carbine is NOT stamped M1 CARBINE. If true technically it would be legal. Problem is finding a FFL dealer willing to take a chance and transfer it to you.
Link Posted: 7/2/2005 7:34:25 PM EDT
i called kahr arms already. i think they do mark them somewhere m1 carbine.
i could be wrong. call em maybe they will make a nj batch. why not right?
Link Posted: 7/2/2005 9:29:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2005 9:51:11 PM EDT by Rutgers]
Well, so much for that idea......... but I'm not giving up just yet........
Link Posted: 7/2/2005 11:21:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2005 11:24:08 PM EDT by PK90]
You know, the more I read the laws regarding SAWs, the more I become confused and bewildered. I read and reread this shit everyday and I find something new all the time. Let me get this straight. In other words, let me ask everyone's opinion.

NJSA 2C:39-1w lists certain firearms by "Name", others by "Type" and still others by "Substantially Identical". The AG Guideline, dated 8/19/1996, attempted to address the issue of "substantially identical". This is where the Federal AW Ban originated. On 3/31/1997, the AG Directive addressed the Colt & Springfield rifles, AND stated the following: "Neither this clarification regarding the classification of the Colt Match Target Rifle and the M1A Rifle, nor the guidelines issued August 19, 1996, regarding the “substantially identical” provision of the assault weapons law applies to firearms that are specifically listed in N.J.S.A.2C:39-1w(2) as prohibited firearms or to firearms which are banned at “types” of named prohibited firearms.".

WTF? Neither AG Directive applies to 2C:39-1w? Are WASR-10s illegal because they are Avtomat Kalashnikov type firearms? Is a Rock River Arms LAR-15 illegal because of the name? Or is it only the Colt that is banned? Is a Vector Arms V-53 legal?

I was under the assumption that the "type" firearms can be the identical with a different name, as long as the evil features were neutered. This would make the M1 Carbine legal if named different. Right?



2C:39-1w: "Assault firearm" means:
(1)The following firearms:
--Algimec AGM1 type
--Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder such as the "Street Sweeper" or "Striker 12"
--Armalite AR-180 type
--Australian Automatic Arms SAR
--Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms
--Beretta AR-70 and BM59 semi-automatic firearms
--Bushmaster Assault Rifle
--Calico M-900 Assault carbine and M-900
--CETME G3
--Chartered Industries of Singapore SR-88 type
--Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 series
--Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1 and Max 2, AR 100 types
--Demro TAC-1 carbine type
--Encom MP-9 and MP-45 carbine types
--FAMAS MAS223 types
--FN-FAL, FN-LAR, or FN-FNC type semi-automatic firearms
--Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12 shotguns
--G3SA type
--Galil type Heckler and Koch HK91, HK93, HK94, MP5, PSG-1
--Intratec TEC 9 and 22 semi-automatic firearms
--M1 carbine type
--M14S type
--MAC 10, MAC 11, MAC 11-9mm carbine type firearms
--PJK M-68 carbine type
--Plainfield Machine Company Carbine
--Ruger K-Mini-14/5F and Mini-14/5RF
--SIG AMT, SIG 550SP, SIG 551SP, SIG PE-57 types
--SKS with detachable magazine type
--Spectre Auto carbine type
--Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48 type
--Sterling MK-6, MK-7 and SAR types
--Steyr A.U.G. semi-automatic firearms
--USAS 12 semi-automatic type shotgun
--Uzi type semi-automatic firearms
--Valmet M62, M71S, M76, or M78 type semi-automatic firearms
--Weaver Arm Nighthawk.
(2)Any firearm manufactured under any designation which is substantially identical to any of the firearms listed above.
(3)A semi-automatic shotgun with either a magazine capacity exceeding six rounds, a pistol grip, or a folding stock.
(4)A semi-automatic rifle with a fixed magazine capacity exceeding 15 rounds.
(5)A part or combination of parts designed or intended to convert a firearm into an assault firearm, or any combination of parts from which an assault firearm may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.



Link Posted: 7/3/2005 4:30:30 AM EDT
Evan Nappen is a member of my club, CJRPC. I have spoken to him numerous times about this. This paragraph is right out of his book.
"The Attorney General's opinion of August 19, 1996, defined the term "substantially identical" in response to Federal litigation filed after I won the State vs. Merrill case in which Superior Court, Monmouth County, found the NJ Assault Firearm unconstitutional.
The Attorney General's opinion utilizes the 1994 Federal Crime Law definition of Assault Weapon. Basically if a person possesses a lawfully manufactured, post 1994 production specification gun and it is not specifically named on New Jersey's laundry list of "assault firearms", the gun is not a assault firearm under NJ's law. The Attorney General's opinion is reproduced in full as follows"

He goes on to list some firearms that are NJ LEGAL.
1927 Thompson / Auto Ordnance .45 Tommy Gun
Browning Auto Rifle BAR
Browning M2 .50 Cal semi auto
Colt Match Target Rifle
Clones of post 1994 production specifications Colt Match Target Rifle ( eg. Bushmaster, Armalite, ect.
Kel Tec sub 9
M1 Garand Rifle
MAK-90
Marlin Camp Carbine
Remongton 7600
Ruger 10/22
Ruger Mini14 with straight stock
Ruger Mini30 """"""""""""""""""\
Ruger Police Carbine
SKS with fixed mag.
Springfields M1A rifle without bayonet lug.
ANY SEMI-AUTO FIREARM IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE ATTORNEY GENERALS'S GUIDELINES OF AUGUST 19,1996

The NJAWB mentions the M1 Carbine as "M1 CARBINE TYPE" So IMHO only, if the Kahr is NOT stamped M1 then it is NOT substanically equal if you follow the guideline's set forth by the AG's office, since this particular rifle is a "named" gun on the NJAWB.

Now even if I'm correct, here lie's the problem. Do you think you could find a dealer in NJ who would transfer one to you? I know dealer's who wouldn't even transfer SAR's because they were afraid of being raided or some such nonsense. Some even went as far to say they were illegal because they were AK47's! I even had a PA. dealer who wouldn't sell me one in PA. because as he said, "I don't need to lose my FFL over selling you Jersey Guy's an AK". Can you say CLUELESS. Well I was finally able to buy one at Sarco when they had them. NJAWB's law is so damn vauge that even Attorney's have a hard time untangling the mess our clueless politicians handed us.

Another problem as I see it is even if you were to find a dealer to transfer one to you and somehow you were in a car accident or traffic stop on your way home from a day of shooting and a Cop saw you had an M1 Carbine, what do you think would happen? Most Cops I have spoken to have no idea what's legal or illegal when it comes to evil looking assault looking rifles. Not a slam to LE, most just don't know or care to know. I remember back in 1996 when I was again able to own a Colt Match Target Rifle. I told the head LE guy in my town I was going to buy one and he said they were illegal. I had to explain to him about the Attorney Generals' recent change because he had not even heard about it. I then asked my FFL dealer to order me one and he said they were illegal too. I had to educate him also!

No one want's to become a "test case" to find out one way or another. I know I sure don't want to take the risk even with Mr. Nappen as my Attorney. Too expensive and suffice it to say NJ Courts scare the hell of of me!


Link Posted: 7/3/2005 7:44:30 AM EDT
As I mentioned in my first post, the receiver on these rifles says Carbine, Cal. 30 M1.

Does anyone know if that is the same wording as the USGI M1 Carbine? This is just so silly....
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 7:49:03 AM EDT
Yes, USGI's are stamped M1.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 8:04:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:
The NJAWB mentions the M1 Carbine as "M1 CARBINE TYPE" So IMHO only, if the Kahr is NOT stamped M1 then it is NOT substanically equal if you follow the guideline's set forth by the AG's office, since this particular rifle is a "named" gun on the NJAWB.


So what you or Nappen are saying is that the "Type" firearms in the law are specifically banned because of the stamping? Why is not an AK-47 without the features legal? It does not have "Avtomat Kalashnikov" stamped on it.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 8:16:19 AM EDT
MEN
i say call kahr arms and tell them the story. im sure they can run off
a bunch of non marked types. i think their model number is totally different.
all they have to do is mark a bunch of ''jersey type '' recievers.
theres FFL'S that will transfer. and why not, their in it to make money.

all these ar builders, some will mark them any way you want.

plus nj really gets humped with the carbine. you can take the lug off, no flash hider
no pistol grip. and original 15 round mags to boot.

they want the laws to be confusing,so the law biding gun owner just gives up.

keep up the good fight men........
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 8:30:43 AM EDT
What about some of those old post war commeercial M1 Carbines? Any chance some of them are not marked "M1 Carbine"?
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 11:22:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rutgers:
What about some of those old post war commeercial M1 Carbines? Any chance some of them are not marked "M1 Carbine"?



Iver Johson, Plainfield Machine and Universal M1 Carbines are all stamped M1 on the receiver.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 11:29:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PK90:

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:
The NJAWB mentions the M1 Carbine as "M1 CARBINE TYPE" So IMHO only, if the Kahr is NOT stamped M1 then it is NOT substanically equal if you follow the guideline's set forth by the AG's office, since this particular rifle is a "named" gun on the NJAWB.


So what you or Nappen are saying is that the "Type" firearms in the law are specifically banned because of the stamping? Why is not an AK-47 without the features legal? It does not have "Avtomat Kalashnikov" stamped on it.



They are legal as long as they are in post-ban configuration and 922r compliant. I have purchased OOW AK receivers from my dealer and then went ahead and had my AK smith build them in NJ legal configuration. Folding stocks are "pinned" open, bayonet lugs were ground so you couldn't attach one and the threaded barrels had permanently welded brakes put on them. No different than buying an SAR1, 2 or 3. Sarco was selling them for $299.99 when they had them a couple of years ago. Brick Armory had them too.

No different than buying an SAR
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 11:44:49 AM EDT
how are those OOW ak's? who builds them also??
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 11:45:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:

Originally Posted By Rutgers:
What about some of those old post war commeercial M1 Carbines? Any chance some of them are not marked "M1 Carbine"?



Iver Johson, Plainfield Machine and Universal M1 Carbines are all stamped M1 on the receiver.




I was actually getting a little excited for awhile thinking that those Plainfield Carbines could have worked....... until I found out that the receiver says "Plainfield Machine Co. Carbine, .30 M1"

Insane.... can't even buy an old obsolete rifle......
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 1:26:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BSOG1:
how are those OOW ak's? who builds them also??



It all depends who builds them. I use AK-USA in Fl. to build my "sanitized" AK's. I bought the receivers directly from Ohio Ordnance Works who then shipped them to my FFL dealer for transfer and sent my parts kit and receiver for the build.

The 1MM thick Arsenal USA receivers are the way to go today as they are easier to build on. I'll be ordering some of them at the end of the summer for a few more kits I want to build.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 1:28:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rutgers:

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:

Originally Posted By Rutgers:
What about some of those old post war commeercial M1 Carbines? Any chance some of them are not marked "M1 Carbine"?



Iver Johson, Plainfield Machine and Universal M1 Carbines are all stamped M1 on the receiver.




I was actually getting a little excited for awhile thinking that those Plainfield Carbines could have worked....... until I found out that the receiver says "Plainfield Machine Co. Carbine, .30 M1"

Insane.... can't even buy an old obsolete rifle......



Yep, you can own an M1A or an AR clone but can''t even own a rifle that basically shoots a pistol cartridge. Totally insane!
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 1:53:41 PM EDT
Hey Rutgers, I just remembered I handled an M1 Carbine made by IMI ( Isreali Military Industries ) last year sometime at a gun show in Phila. I don't recall it being stamped M1 anywhere on the receiver. Maybe you could post a question in the GD ot the Armory forum area and someone in a "free" state who owns one can let you know how it's stamped.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 2:16:34 PM EDT
thanks.. i just put a post there
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 2:19:26 PM EDT
Do you think it would fly with the NJSP if Auto-Ordnance supplied M1 Carbines stamped "N.J. Carbine, Caliber 30" with no evil features and 15 round mags?

Current Auto-Ordnance markings include the following: Auto-Ordnance, Worcester, MA behind the rear sight; U.S. Carbine, Cal. 30 M1 on the receiver in front of the bolt and the serial number is stamped on the left side of the receiver.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 2:28:20 PM EDT
It's only illegal to deface a serial# on a receiver. Why not grind off the markings you dont like?
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 2:28:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PK90:
Do you think it would fly with the NJSP if Auto-Ordnance supplied M1 Carbines stamped "N.J. Carbine, Caliber 30" with no evil features and 15 round mags?

Current Auto-Ordnance markings include the following: Auto-Ordnance, Worcester, MA behind the rear sight; U.S. Carbine, Cal. 30 M1 on the receiver in front of the bolt and the serial number is stamped on the left side of the receiver.



Nope, and Auto Ordnance would never do it anyway. NJ is just too small of a market to concern them.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 2:51:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
It's only illegal to deface a serial# on a receiver. Why not grind off the markings you dont like?


It is illegal in New Jersey to deface a model name.

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:
Nope, and Auto Ordnance would never do it anyway. NJ is just too small of a market to concern them.


I have sent an email to Auto-Ordnance requesting a special run of markings. We'll see what they say.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 3:01:05 PM EDT
Cool, I hope you prove me wrong!
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 3:29:03 PM EDT
MAYBE THEY CAN JUST CALL IT .30 RIFLE
they can call it a kenworth for all i care. just get me one........
hey ya never know what they will do.im sure they can sell 100 in a blink of an eye in nj.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 4:02:58 PM EDT
If I get the go ahead from Kahr and the NJSP, I will order 50+ from them.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 4:39:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2005 4:50:44 PM EDT by Rutgers]
Good luck with that! Keep us updated.


And about those new Kahr M1 Carbines, has any actually confirmed that they are illegal here? I know that have the evil words "M1" and "Carbine" and going by NJ gun law logic they almost certianly are banned but maybe being new production rifles somehow they might be good. After all, it's only a name. I guess if Kahr started putting the words "AR15" or "AK47" on the Carbines instead they would be banned because AR15's and AK47's are illegal weapons in NJ.....
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 5:29:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rutgers:
Good luck with that! Keep us updated.


And about those new Kahr M1 Carbines, has any actually confirmed that they are illegal here? I know that have the evil words "M1" and "Carbine" and going by NJ gun law logic they almost certianly are banned but maybe being new production rifles somehow they might be good. After all, it's only a name. I guess if Kahr started putting the words "AR15" or "AK47" on the Carbines instead they would be banned because AR15's and AK47's are illegal weapons in NJ.....



New production or not , they are still illegal if stamped M1 and they are a carbine. It makes zero difference as they are a "named" assault rifle.

QUOTE " Under N.J.S 2C;39-1W., assault firearms aer defined as the following list of firearms and four definitions: M1 CARBINE TYPE

Check and checkmate!!
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 6:34:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2005 6:39:32 PM EDT by Rutgers]
Ok, I know I'm just beating this to death but here's one last try. I was just told that there are Israeli M1 Carbine clones out there that are NOT marked with the words "M1" or "Carbine" on the receiver. From what I was just told and from my quick search online these rifles are marked 'model 888'. Does anyone have any knowledge on these carbines? And if they don't have the words "M1 Carbine" on them, would they actually be NJ Legal?

And if this fails, I'm going to give up for good and just stick with Garands....
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 7:02:52 PM EDT
I was doing some more research and came across a IAI M1 Carbine. These were new production Carbines made in TX until a few years ago. I was just reading an article about this rifle from the Jan 01 issue of American Rifleman and check out this quote:


IAI MI Carbines are marked "Houston TX USA IAI," which will prevent any possible confusion for collectors of original military Ml Carbines.


Tell me, that HAS to be New Jersey Legal!
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 8:05:33 PM EDT
pk90
ILL TAKE ONE!!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 5:22:28 AM EDT
I would must definitely buy a NJ Legal carbine!!

there has to be a way...
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 5:27:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2005 5:27:33 AM EDT by DWFAN]

Originally Posted By Rutgers:
I was doing some more research and came across a IAI M1 Carbine. These were new production Carbines made in TX until a few years ago. I was just reading an article about this rifle from the Jan 01 issue of American Rifleman and check out this quote:


IAI MI Carbines are marked "Houston TX USA IAI," which will prevent any possible confusion for collectors of original military Ml Carbines.


Tell me, that HAS to be New Jersey Legal!



That sounds pretty promising to me
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 5:49:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rutgers:
I was doing some more research and came across a IAI M1 Carbine. These were new production Carbines made in TX until a few years ago. I was just reading an article about this rifle from the Jan 01 issue of American Rifleman and check out this quote:


IAI MI Carbines are marked "Houston TX USA IAI," which will prevent any possible confusion for collectors of original military Ml Carbines.


Tell me, that HAS to be New Jersey Legal!



I mentioned the IMI Carbine in an earlier post. I do remember nowhere on the receiver the M1 designation. Now try to find a dealer to transfer one.
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 5:58:04 AM EDT
we will find a dealer. they are out there. they want to make $ $ $
and we want our legally bought rifles. i think this can work out. they can
sell 50 right off the bat no trouble. out-of staters would buy them also. my buddy loves
coming to nj and shootin at our favorite range.
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 6:00:08 AM EDT
i heard the IMI carbines werent that good anyway. whis kahr deal will be the way to go.

new,warranty,etc.....i heard the stocks are cheesy but you can go anywhere and get a cool stock.
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 6:25:24 AM EDT
I have read some bad things about the 1MI Carbines as well but at least there seems to be an option now for New Jersey people. Of course the Kahr M1 Carbines would be better as they have a warrenty, etc but who knows if they will ever be available in NJ. I'm going to wait and see how this plays out and worse case scenario I go and buy one of these IM1 Carbines.
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 6:37:27 AM EDT
patience men,
who knew you could have m1a's and ar types sar's etc...???

in 1990 you couldnt have nothing,not even the mags. at least thats what we thought.
i remember well,thats all i had was an AKS, M1A,2 AR15'S. A1 AND A2. i was bummed to say the least. ive sold or put them in pa. i kicked myself many times for not registering them. we had a 90 day grace period. my pa buddy talked me out of it. thinking they where going to bash down our doors and have the swat team take them away. i still have the registration forms.
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 7:55:34 AM EDT
If I can scrounge up the money for a NJ-legal M1 Carbine, I would buy one, PK90.

College tuition and summer jobs being the major variables in that statement.
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 8:10:01 AM EDT
Hey. I pay paying college tuition and I don't even go!!!

If I had the facilities, I'd get a manufacturer's license and make only NJ legal firearms with my own stampings. Word is that another dealer is getting his. Maybe he can be convinced to do this.
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 8:18:08 AM EDT
summer job- whats that got to do with a 400.00 carbine????
dont jobs bring in money??
im in for one.
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 11:41:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2005 11:43:16 AM EDT by CK1]

Originally Posted By BSOG1:
summer job- whats that got to do with a 400.00 carbine????
dont jobs bring in money??
im in for one.



Supply and demand of money, my friend. One hand gives, the other takes in my case. I wish it weren't so because tuition money could pay for a LOT of goodies. No NFA, though. Stupid NJ.

ETA: If the carbine will sell for $400, I could easily cough up the dough. I got that kind of money in my rainy day fund. Hell, everyday waiting for my ticket out of NJ is a rainy day.
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 12:24:10 PM EDT
How long ago did you send an email to Kahr about the possibility of producing some NJ legal receivers for their M1's?
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 1:51:50 PM EDT
ck1- at least you have it to give it. could be alot worse. i know people that keep givin and
dont have it. humm . that cant last for long.
i read on another post some dude got one of the kahr arm carbines for 415.00.
and loves it.
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 1:53:28 PM EDT
nj isnt that bad- you just have to know how to work with the system
pa is cool- but its not perfect either.
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 3:08:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2005 3:28:07 PM EDT by LUGERMAN]

Originally Posted By BSOG1:
nj isnt that bad- you just have to know how to work with the system
pa is cool- but its not perfect either.



OK, You got me. How do I work with the CORRUPT system of NJ Govt.????
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 3:48:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:

Originally Posted By BSOG1:
nj isnt that bad- you just have to know how to work with the system
pa is cool- but its not perfect either.



OK, You got me. How do I work with the CORRUPT system of NJ Govt.????




+1,000,000,000
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 4:59:00 PM EDT
fake flash hiders and blocked mags???
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 5:14:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BSOG1:
fake flash hiders and blocked mags???



So complying with the law is working with it???? Do I have a choice?? You made the right choice, you left NJ to move to PA!
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