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Posted: 9/1/2004 4:51:52 AM EST
HERE'S A LINK to the M1A Forum in The Armory where I originally posed the question;
"Is a SA M1A (Manufactured 2001) with a factory flash suppressor be legally allowed to have a pistol grip stock in NEW JERSEY?"

********************************­*********************************************­****************
(POSTED IN RESPONSE ON 8/31/2004)

Thanks again FB

So...I call the Deputy Attorney General's office JUST TO BE SAFE. I wanted to confirm that my plan was legal. They refused to comment since "That's what attorny's are for" and "Liability issues"

Okay....Thank-you very much he who draws his pay from the taxpayers.

So I call the NJ State Police, Firearms branch. The Sgt. explains that my plans are legal since the 1997 exception was made and it's NOT a Pre-ban.

The 1997 exception:

However, according to the manufacturer’s specifications, the M1A has been modified. The modified M1A, which became available in 1994, would not be considered to be substantially identical to a prohibited firearm in accordance with the statutory provision and the Attorney General’s guidelines cited above.

So, my 2001 M1A w/ Detachable mag + factory flash supressor + pistol grip = LEGAL

Thisis reenforced by:
...However, earlier versions of the M1A which contains at least two of the criteria identified in Paragraph B of the Attorney General’s Guidelines, supra, would still be considered to be substantially identical to a prohibited firearm and continue to be banned under our State law.

So, IF I had a PRE-BAN, I could NOT add the pistol grip.

So...does the above make sense to anyone else but me? Fact check time....

***************************­*********************************************­*********************

Anyone shed any light on this question?

Thanks in advance,

Hep

Link Posted: 9/1/2004 7:47:31 PM EST
Anyone?
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 1:22:34 AM EST
Okay, I'll bite. Gotta pic?

You may have a Federal Post-Ban M1A with a factory "muzzle break". Your firearm has no evil features. You may add a pistol grip.

If you do have a "flash suppressor", you can not add the grip.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 1:38:01 AM EST
substantially identical is a great clause for us. The courts ruled that (see njsp) the colt match target was NOT substantially identical to the colt ar15. thus the match target is legal. this case legalized all postban ar's in NJ.

my problem with the law revolves around an M1 carbine I bought and had to sell befor eI move to NJ. It was a universal. universals are CLEARLY different animals then M1's. Yet they are banend by name. Whatever.

I gave up on bringing rifles to NJ - 'cept my spr-is build. I got a thousand ten round mags for it in case I feel the need to go shooting in NJ. But the only other gun I'll have is the mossberg. The rest stay in new york, where i will be fri-mon.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 3:09:43 AM EST
I have the M1A that you are talking about. AFAIK it is legal. Bought it from a NJ dealer.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 3:56:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By PK90:
Okay, I'll bite. Gotta pic?

You may have a Federal Post-Ban M1A with a factory "muzzle break". Your firearm has no evil features. You may add a pistol grip.

If you do have a "flash suppressor", you can not add the grip.




Aside from a RAS, this is the exact SA M1A Standard that we're talking about.



I'm thinking I need to get a freaking letter explaining that this is NOT specified by the NJ law because it was ruled (like the Colt AR) to be substantially different. But will that notion stop an over zealous peace officer? This is why I'm thinking "document"
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 3:58:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By MAP:
I have the M1A that you are talking about. AFAIK it is legal. Bought it from a NJ dealer.

Mike



I know it's legal....but will adding a pistol grip make it illegal, that's the question.

AFAIK?

Thanks,

Hep

Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:04:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 4:07:27 AM EST by hepcat85]

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
substantially identical is a great clause for us. The courts ruled that (see njsp) the colt match target was NOT substantially identical to the colt ar15. thus the match target is legal. this case legalized all postban ar's in NJ.

my problem with the law revolves around an M1 carbine I bought and had to sell befor eI move to NJ. It was a universal. universals are CLEARLY different animals then M1's. Yet they are banend by name. Whatever.

I gave up on bringing rifles to NJ - 'cept my spr-is build. I got a thousand ten round mags for it in case I feel the need to go shooting in NJ. But the only other gun I'll have is the mossberg. The rest stay in new york, where i will be fri-mon.



Hey CJ! Thanks for posting....(I need some solid help on this one.)


Here's the conclusion I came up with based upon the law (as I understood it) and the SA M1A Standard rifle: (NOTE: This is a reprint from the other thread)

***************************­*********************************************­******************
So...I call the Deputy Attorney General's office JUST TO BE SAFE. I wanted to confirm that my plan was legal. They refused to comment since "That's what attorny's are for" and "Liability issues"

Okay....Thank-you very much he who draws his pay from the taxpayers.

So I call the NJ State Police, Firearms branch. The Sgt. explains that my plans are legal since the 1997 exception was made and it's NOT a Pre-ban.

The 1997 exception:

However, according to the manufacturer’s specifications, the M1A has been modified. The modified M1A, which became available in 1994, would not be considered to be substantially identical to a prohibited firearm in accordance with the statutory provision and the Attorney General’s guidelines cited above.

So, my 2001 M1A w/ Detachable mag + factory flash supressor + pistol grip = LEGAL

Thisis reenforced by:
...However, earlier versions of the M1A which contains at least two of the criteria identified in Paragraph B of the Attorney General’s Guidelines, supra, would still be considered to be substantially identical to a prohibited firearm and continue to be banned under our State law.

So, IF I had a PRE-BAN, I could NOT add the pistol grip.

So...does the above make sense to anyone else but me? Fact check time....

Thanks fellas!


*******************************­*********************************************­**************


<sigh> What head games they play...............

Link Posted: 9/2/2004 5:53:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 5:54:09 AM EST by MAP]
What do mean by "pistol grip"? If you are talking about a pistol grip similar to one on an AR15 it would be a no go. You would then have a pistol grip, detachable magazine and flash hider.

Read This www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/3assltf.pdf


If you mead the grip on the standard wood stock you are OK.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:00:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By hepcat85:
So, my 2001 M1A w/ Detachable mag + factory flash supressor + pistol grip = LEGAL



My 2 cents: ILLEGAL
NJ "SAW" = A semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:

1. A folding or telescoping stock
2. A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon
3. A bayonet mount
4. A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor
5. A grenade launcher

I know little about M1As. Isn't the only difference between the post-ban and pre-ban is that the pre has a bayonet lug? hence the two evils.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:03:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 6:06:51 AM EST by hepcat85]

Originally Posted By MAP:
What do mean by "pistol grip"? If you are talking about a pistol grip similar to one on an AR15 it would be a no go. You would then have a pistol grip, detachable magazine and flash hider.

Read This www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/3assltf.pdf


If you mead the grip on the standard wood stock you are OK.

Mike



Not being jerky here, but take a look at what I wrote above. That argument worked for the NJ State Police when I called them up(!) It's because the distinction was made that "Earlier Versions" were banned. I want to be 100% though.


Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:09:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By PK90:

Originally Posted By hepcat85:
So, my 2001 M1A w/ Detachable mag + factory flash supressor + pistol grip = LEGAL



My 2 cents: ILLEGAL
NJ "SAW" = A semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:

1. A folding or telescoping stock
2. A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon
3. A bayonet mount
4. A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor
5. A grenade launcher

I know little about M1As. Isn't the only difference between the post-ban and pre-ban is that the pre has a bayonet lug? hence the two evils.



Here's the part of the revision that makes this weird:

The Springfield M1A is not one of the enumerated firearms which are specifically prohibited under the State’s assault firearms laws. It has been prohibited in this State as being substantially identical to a named firearm.

However, according to the manufacturer’s specifications, the M1A has been modified. The modified M1A, which became available in 1994, would not be considered to be substantially identical to a prohibited firearm in accordance with the statutory provision and the Attorney General’s guidelines cited above.
However, earlier versions of the M1A which contains at least two of the criteria identified in Paragraph B of the Attorney General’s Guidelines, supra, would still be considered to be substantially identical to a prohibited firearm and continue to be banned under our State law.

As a result, it will be necessary to clearly distinguish the physical characteristics or lack of physical characteristics when making a determination regarding the M1A rifle."
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:17:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 7:55:05 AM EST by M1-Matt]
Does your M1A have a flash hider and a bayonet lug on it now? If it has both then it is illeagle. If it only has the flash hider on it then you are ok. For a detachable mag semi-auto rifle to be leagl in NJ it can only have 1 of the following features. Detachable box mag, flash hider, bayonet mount, folding/collapsing stock, and a pistol grip. For example a Colt Match Target or Bushmaster only has a pistol grip and a detachable box mag, if you were to add a collapsing stock it would make them illegal. If you wanted to add a pistol grip stock you would have to remove the flash hider and install the CA muzzle break.


A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be “substantially identical,” that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:

A. A semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:

1. A folding or telescoping stock
2. A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon
3. A bayonet mount
4. A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor
5. A grenade launcher


Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:25:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 6:26:17 AM EST by PK90]
hepcat85,
I must be missing your point. The post 94 modified M1As have 1 evil feature. By adding a pistol grip, you make it 2. Illegal.

Forget the "substantially identical" wording.
Any detachable magazine semi-automatic rifle that has two of the named features is a NJ "SAW".
Any detachable magazine semi-automatic pistol that has two of the named features is a NJ "SAW".
Any detachable magazine semi-automatic shotgun that has one of the named features is a NJ "SAW". This one is according to the letter of the law, not the AG's directive. Hence, the new Benelli is banned.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:36:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 6:38:46 AM EST by PK90]

Originally Posted By M1-Matt:
A semi automatic rifle to be legal in NJ can only have 2 of the following features. Detachable box mag, flash hider, bayonet mount, folding/collapsing stock, and a pistol grip.



Matt,
Careful. The law only applies to detachable mag semi-autos. Other semi-autos can have all the evil features you can put on it, barring the post-imported versions.

We know what you meant, but the words can have different meanings if not said in a certain way.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:47:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 7:56:32 AM EST by M1-Matt]

Originally Posted By PK90:

Originally Posted By M1-Matt:
A semi automatic rifle to be legal in NJ can only have 2 of the following features. Detachable box mag, flash hider, bayonet mount, folding/collapsing stock, and a pistol grip.



Matt,
Careful. The law only applies to detachable mag semi-autos. Other semi-autos can have all the evil features you can put on it, barring the post-imported versions.

We know what you meant, but the words can have different meanings if not said in a certain way.



Ok not problem I see what you are getting at.

I changed it in my orginal post. "For a detachable mag semi-auto rifle to be leagl in NJ it can only have 1 of the following features." does that make it more clear?
Thanks
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:11:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By M1-Matt:

Originally Posted By PK90:

Originally Posted By M1-Matt:
A semi automatic rifle to be legal in NJ can only have 2 of the following features. Detachable box mag, flash hider, bayonet mount, folding/collapsing stock, and a pistol grip.



Matt,
Careful. The law only applies to detachable mag semi-autos. Other semi-autos can have all the evil features you can put on it, barring the post-imported versions.

We know what you meant, but the words can have different meanings if not said in a certain way.



Ok not problem I see what you are getting at.

I changed it in my orginal post. "For a detachable mag semi-auto rifle to be leagl in NJ it can only have 1 of the following features." does that make it more clear?
Thanks




The issue here is that a police officer may not understand my M1A is post 94 and would be legal....and in NJ, the burden is on the citizen. Evan Nappen visited one of the Central Jersey Rifle and Pistol meetings I attended, and he pretty much said that it's all on your back. He's defended gun owners who the officers THOUGHT had a banned weapon, and several thousand bucks later they were let off. I'm thinking I need to get a letter from the State Police to keep in my range bag.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:27:25 PM EST
How important is the pistol grip? If its not manditory just skip it. Its more problem then it worth.

The next NJ shoot will be the end of october. I'd be happy to being my M1A and let you put a few round throught it.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:32:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By MAP:
How important is the pistol grip? If its not manditory just skip it. Its more problem then it worth.

The next NJ shoot will be the end of october. I'd be happy to being my M1A and let you put a few round throught it.

Mike



At this point it's become worth the trouble because I'm fed up with laying down over such nonsense! I just wanted to trick out my M1A. It's funny, I bet I could probably mount a crack pipe and it would be legal!!!!!!

Thanks for the offer....what model is it? Where do you usually shoot?

Thanks for taking the time to post man, it's very much appreciated.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:46:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:23:53 AM EST
We shoot at Fort Dix. The next shoot will be in October. Check the Hometowm forum for the notice from FM Junkie.

I have a loaded model. Great gun.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:31:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By FMJunkie:
Well, jumping in a bit late here but... (and I aplogize if this has already been covered)

Hep - Since the Federal ban will be sunsetting in a couple of weeks, your plan seems perfectly legal in any other state according to soon-to-be Federal law. However, NJ's ban, which is very similarly worded in the 'features' aspect, is permanent.

REGARDLESS of the make or model of the weapon, if you violate the feature count, you are breaking the law. The specifically named list and its subsequent 'substantially identical ruling' are a completely separate subsection/paragraph of the law from the feature restriction. They are complimentary to each other, not either/or. As stated, if you had a perm attached 'California legal brake' instead of the flash hider, you could add the pistol grip stock without a problem. Unfortunately, you have a semi-auto with detachable mag and flash hider, which is the same as having a post-ban AR in terms of feature count, so you cannot add the pistol grip stock. Its the same reason you cannot add a flash hider or threaded barrel to a post-ban AR, too many features.

My guess is you succeeded in either confusing the officer you spoke with or focusing his attention purely on whether or not the M1A is, in and of itself, legal. I doubt the officer truly understood the implications of the feature count here.

Take this for what its worth, which may not be much, but I'm honestly fairly certain on this.



The trooper I spoke with is in the FIREARMS BRANCH. My question was certainly in his realm of understanding. I didn't confuse him with any Jedi mind trick...I simply explained I have an SA M1A manufactured in 2001. I want to add a pistol grip. I mentioned evil feature count. He said that the addendum specified the the Colt target rifle and the M1A as "substantially different" and that I could. The problem I felt was that another officer may not know about that addendum and nab me.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:10:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By hepcat85:
The trooper I spoke with is in the FIREARMS BRANCH. My question was certainly in his realm of understanding. I didn't confuse him with any Jedi mind trick...I simply explained I have an SA M1A manufactured in 2001. I want to add a pistol grip. I mentioned evil feature count. He said that the addendum specified the the Colt target rifle and the M1A as "substantially different" and that I could. The problem I felt was that another officer may not know about that addendum and nab me.



The Trooper is WRONG, and his opinion will put you in JAIL.
If you want to fight it or you think you can do it, get it in writing:
NJSP Firearms Investigation Unit
P.O. Box 7068
West Trenton, NJ
08628-0068
Phone: 609-584-5051 Ext. 5624
Fax: 609-584-9526

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:59:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By PK90:

Originally Posted By hepcat85:
The trooper I spoke with is in the FIREARMS BRANCH. My question was certainly in his realm of understanding. I didn't confuse him with any Jedi mind trick...I simply explained I have an SA M1A manufactured in 2001. I want to add a pistol grip. I mentioned evil feature count. He said that the addendum specified the the Colt target rifle and the M1A as "substantially different" and that I could. The problem I felt was that another officer may not know about that addendum and nab me.



The Trooper is WRONG, and his opinion will put you in JAIL.
If you want to fight it or you think you can do it, get it in writing:
NJSP Firearms Investigation Unit
P.O. Box 7068
West Trenton, NJ
08628-0068
Phone: 609-584-5051 Ext. 5624
Fax: 609-584-9526





I know man, that's why I'm out here. Matter of fact, I had mentioned that if what I'm proposing is legal, I'll have to get a letter and have it handy at all times.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:36:09 PM EST
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