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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/23/2005 12:03:42 AM EDT
Boeing union talking strike
About 4,000 Machinists union members rally in SeaTac, demanding better pensions, among other things.

By Bryan Corliss
Herald Writer


Of course they don't care what the industry makes. They just want to squeeze more out of their company. I can see more and more foreign people working at Boeing soon.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:34:05 AM EDT
Open up a Taco Truck onsite.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:02:04 AM EDT
If you are talking about crossing a picket line, you dont need anything.

It comes down to what people think inside themselves nowdays. Long gone are the days of following scabs/ line crossers home and giving them the ballbat treatment they so deserve.

The way poeple send their money to China and Japan in record numbers, unions are the last thing the workers really care about. Me, me, me.....
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:26:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 9:42:49 AM EDT by Da_Bunny]

Originally Posted By CavVet:
If you are talking about crossing a picket line, you dont need anything.

It comes down to what people think inside themselves nowdays. Long gone are the days of following scabs/ line crossers home and giving them the ballbat treatment they so deserve.

The way poeple send their money to China and Japan in record numbers, unions are the last thing the workers really care about. Me, me, me.....



You would have loved the Nord Door strike in Everett. In front of his family, a couple strikers went to a guy's home, threw gasoline on him and set him on fire while he was standing on his front porch, arguing about the strike. Seems that keeping a roof over their heads and feeding his kids was more important to him than than labor principles. Go figure...

Personally, I try to buy American whenever I have the option. I don't have as much choice as I used to, though. Our Subaru has cured me of any fantasies I had about the quality of Japanese cars. My old Plymouth Sundance was a much better car. In the case of both cars, the biggest issue has been the quality of the labor. Neither the Plymouth mechanics, nor the Subaru mechanics have shown any talent for maintenance or repair.

We need fewer people in college and more people in trade schools.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:41:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
You would have loved the Nord Door strike in Everett. In front of his family, a couple strikers went to a guy's home, threw gasoline on him and set him on fire while he was standing on his front porch, arguing about the strike. Seems that keeping a roof over their heads and feeding his kids was more important to him than than labor principles. Go figure...



You know bunny I have never bought into the whole roof over the head thing as an argument for crossing a picket line. You know there is a strike going on there. Either you went to work at a place you knew there was a union and wanted a good job, and knew there was always a chance of a strike occuring, or you went there as a scab, hoping to slide into a good job as a man stood on a picket line. Either way I have never had any sympathy for anything that happened as a byproduct of crossing a picket line.

I do have some sympathy for the family though. Too bad she maried such a maroon, and too bad the kids lost the DNA lottery in having such a stupid Dad.

Hindsight 20/20, wouldnt it have been mucho better to get another job? Illegal aliens seem to have little problem finding one. Fresh legal immigrants have no problem finding one. The only job in the world that guy can have is scabbing? I dont think so. And his entire family paid the price for it. Now was it really worth it???



We need fewer people in college and more people in trade schools.


America would be a lot better off.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:45:40 AM EDT
CavVet's gonna have a shitstorm over this, but its my .02
Union workers at Boeing have some of the best wages, benefits etc in the industry!! Boeing still has thousands of internal workers fabricating components at a $150-200 an hour (total overhead shop rate) when Boeing subcontracted job shops here in the US can make the components for a $50-$75 an hour (total overhead rate). The aerospace market is EXTREMELY competitive in commercial aircraft. In my opinion the Boeing IAM workers should STFU and be thankful they have a job! Matt Blondin (the local IAW spokesman) is an absolute freakin asshat. PEOPLE ARE NOT GUARANTEED A JOB FOLKS!!!!!!!!! They KEEP a job only when a company is profitable in a global marketplace.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:13:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GunnerHogan1:
Union workers at Boeing have some of the best wages, benefits etc in the industry!! Boeing still has thousands of internal workers fabricating components at a $150-200 an hour (total overhead shop rate) when Boeing subcontracted job shops here in the US can make the components for a $50-$75 an hour (total overhead rate). The aerospace market is EXTREMELY competitive in commercial aircraft. In my opinion the Boeing IAM workers should STFU and be thankful they have a job! Matt Blondin (the local IAW spokesman) is an absolute freakin asshat. PEOPLE ARE NOT GUARANTEED A JOB FOLKS!!!!!!!!! They KEEP a job only when a company is profitable in a global marketplace.



I dont know the numbers, and dont know your source. I do know you do have to keep the company in business and competitive, when they fold you are done. However, when you work for management like the one I work for, you can easily see a need for unions.

Prime example. We had one plant, out in the countryside that has been non union for years. The company loves to brag about how much they pay them. Hourly well below ours (different market), they get additional retirement funds, Christmas bonus and work incentives.

Our management is so bad (2 out of 3 functional illiterate versus 5/25 truck drivers have college degrees- international corporate) that plant just took a vote to go union- and it passed.

Back on topic- I read the article. They want their increases in retirement. Sounds like a win/win to me. Boeing doesnt have to cough up cash now, they get security for their future. <shrug>

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:14:55 AM EDT
Armored car? Why? This is ARFCOM! Just ride a bicycle / skateboard and carry your AR-15 at patrol-ready. I don't think you'd get any trouble crossing a line that way.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:18:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:


Back on topic- I read the article. They want their increases in retirement. Sounds like a win/win to me. Boeing doesnt have to cough up cash now, they get security for their future. <shrug>



So they can be like GM and Ford and the airlines with Billions of dollars in retirement benefits hanging over their heads for the next 50 years??


Save for your own retirement, I do.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:21:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 8:22:52 AM EDT by simple_in_seattle]
As a father....I would do whatever in the hell I had to do to keep my children fed and a roof over their heads. Unless you are a parent, you really wouldn't understand. I had 2 night jobs while I was in the Army on active duty just to make ends meet and feed my family.

While I understand that Unions were vary crucial during the industrial age, I think they have gone beyond their usefullness and have bred a bunch of prima donnas (Boeing, Utilities, etc). My dad is a Union officer and lifer in the plumbers and pipefitters. I work my ass off compared to some of the folks I've seen in his shop. His union negotiated benefits and wages are pretty substantial. I often ask myself, would I hire someone in off the street and pay them the same wages that the unions have negotiated? Probobly not. I want people who want to work, not people who think that work is an entitlement.

Globalization means we have to be competative as a country and a workforce. This means that we have to produce quality products at a fair price in order to be competative. We haven't done that in some areas of commerce and industry......and therefore we are entering into large deficits with people who can produce a product with less cost. Strangely enough..its in those areas with a large Union presence(Machinery, Automotive, Manufacturing). One of the negative side-affects of becoming an economy focused on services and information instead of goods and materials. Not to mention that Unions are thick with Demonrats and and are two steps and a shuffle away from Communism.

This is just my opinion....I'm not trying to create a flame session here so don't take offense (Cav and others).
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:38:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 8:39:44 AM EDT by Scollins]

After talks broke off late Friday, union negotiator Jim Young said the mechanics would rather see the airline go into bankruptcy than agree to Northwest’s terms. The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association represents 4,427 mechanics, cleaners and custodians, about 11 percent of Northwest’s 40,000 employees.


THAT is a fucked up statement. I hope the AMFA gets broken over the NWA strike. The AFL-CIO doesn't like them anyway.

I for one don't like unions. I think they have their place, even in today's work force, but they need to change the way they operate. Most often the unions threaten strikes unless they get their demands. They aren't interested in negotiations or compromises. It is their way or the picket line. And it seems today that most of the issues don't revolve around hourly pay rates, but around benefits and retirement.

I was in for 8 years, but never had a strike come up during my time. What the union did for worthless workers was great, what it did for me was hold me back. I was three or four times as productive as more senior employees, but they still got more pay and more hours. These worthless people would never be fired either. That leads to de-motivation. Why work hard when barely working at all gets you the same benefits and treatment?

My neighbor owns his own plumbing business. The top of the union scale for his journeymen is something like $35 or $40 an hour. But, he also has to pay their union dues, retirement fund, benefits package, employement taxes, social security, and a few other things. It costs him about $85 an hour to have these guys "work" for him. So for him to make any money at his business, he has to charge over $100 an hour to send a plumber to someone's house.

Talking about unions is always a more emotional debate, and people on either side of the issue are pretty well entrenched. We all like each other here (for the most part!) but I bet this will be OdT's first locked thread......
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:46:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:

Originally Posted By CavVet:
If you are talking about crossing a picket line, you dont need anything.

It comes down to what people think inside themselves nowdays. Long gone are the days of following scabs/ line crossers home and giving them the ballbat treatment they so deserve.

The way poeple send their money to China and Japan in record numbers, unions are the last thing the workers really care about. Me, me, me.....



You would have loved the Nord Door strike in Everett. In front of his family, a couple strikers went to a guy's home, threw gasoline on him and set him on fire while he was standing on his front porch, arguing about the strike. Seems that keeping a roof over their heads and feeding his kids was more important to him than than labor principles. Go figure...

Personally, I try to buy American whenever I have the option. I don't have as much choice as I used to, though. Our Subaru has cured me of any fantasies I had about the quality of Japanese cars. My old Plymouth Sundance was a much better car. In the case of both cars, the biggest issue has been the quality of the labor. Neither the Plymouth mechanics, nor the Subaru mechanics have shown any talent for maintenace or repair.

We need fewer people in college and more people in trade schools.



As a teacher, I see the growing trend in high schools that they are discontinueing shop classes. Wood shop, industrial arts, auto shop... they are dying breeds in our schools. Kids are being discouraged to enter into trade schools. They are being told, "you can't survive in todays world without a college degree." Then the school gets them to go to community college and they can brag that 98% of their seniors go on to college... It's scary.

Meanwhile there are less carpenters, plumbers, mechanics, etc. competing for business, and they are making more money during their first year out of school than DOCTORS. Basic laws of supply and demand.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:51:28 AM EDT
Anything I say in this thread is in focus regarding the company I work for. Period


Originally Posted By Scollins:
Most often the unions threaten strikes unless they get their demands. They aren't interested in negotiations or compromises. It is their way or the picket line.



Actually you should sit in our negotiations. Its the company threatning lockout at every turn.

You should never strike over money, you will never get that back. You lose one paycheck, and it takes a lot more than a dollar an hour to make that cash back. You only ever strike over principle.



And it seems today that most of the issues don't revolve around hourly pay rates, but around benefits and retirement.





If the company is offering a total money package of X per hour (like the $85 you used as an example), what difference should it make to them if we want it in our retirement, for our medical, or on hookers and blow? It shouldnt.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:02:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
You would have loved the Nord Door strike in Everett. In front of his family, a couple strikers went to a guy's home, threw gasoline on him and set him on fire while he was standing on his front porch, arguing about the strike. Seems that keeping a roof over their heads and feeding his kids was more important to him than than labor principles. Go figure...



You know bunny I have never bought into the whole roof over the head thing as an argument for crossing a picket line. You know there is a strike going on there. Either you went to work at a place you knew there was a union and wanted a good job, and knew there was always a chance of a strike occuring, or you went there as a scab, hoping to slide into a good job as a man stood on a picket line. Either way I have never had any sympathy for anything that happened as a byproduct of crossing a picket line.
I do have some sympathy for the family though. Too bad she maried such a maroon, and too bad the kids lost the DNA lottery in having such a stupid Dad.

Hindsight 20/20, wouldnt it have been mucho better to get another job? Illegal aliens seem to have little problem finding one. Fresh legal immigrants have no problem finding one. The only job in the world that guy can have is scabbing? I dont think so. And his entire family paid the price for it. Now was it really worth it???



We need fewer people in college and more people in trade schools.


America would be a lot better off.




I've seen people in this situation. They have a family and expenses, usually unplanned expenses like hospital bills or nursing homes and prescriptions for their parents. They have to take the best job they can find AND pray they don't strike. Otherwise they have three kids and a wife they have to provide for in a different way while their sickly parents move into one of the bedrooms. As often as not, they had to take the union job to avoid bankruptcy in the first place. They are never more than two months away from being out on the street.

"Life is what happens while you were making other plans."

Not everybody is as smart as you are CavVet....
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:46:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:



If the company is offering a total money package of X per hour (like the $85 you used as an example), what difference should it make to them if we want it in our retirement, for our medical, or on hookers and blow? It shouldnt.



Well, the only thing would be that the company doesn't necessarily want to offer X dollars as a total package, but they have to offer that because of contracts. Part of that expense is mandated by the federal or state governement too (social security, medicare, unemployement insurance, etc.)

I'm sure many people would initially say "Sure, dump my retirement and health benefits and just give me the $85/hour." That would last about a year, then they would start complaining about not having those benefits, and start asking for them back. Of course, they wouldn't want to give up their new hourly pay either.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:06:14 AM EDT



Being a father of three working two jobs plus being on the exec. board for my local, my feelings in this subject are mixed. I feel that lines should not be crossed. But some members such as myself really can't afford to miss "one" paycheck. There are way too many lower to lower middle class people who are living paycheck to paycheck.



Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:27:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunchyck:

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:

Originally Posted By CavVet:
If you are talking about crossing a picket line, you dont need anything.

It comes down to what people think inside themselves nowdays. Long gone are the days of following scabs/ line crossers home and giving them the ballbat treatment they so deserve.

The way poeple send their money to China and Japan in record numbers, unions are the last thing the workers really care about. Me, me, me.....



You would have loved the Nord Door strike in Everett. In front of his family, a couple strikers went to a guy's home, threw gasoline on him and set him on fire while he was standing on his front porch, arguing about the strike. Seems that keeping a roof over their heads and feeding his kids was more important to him than than labor principles. Go figure...

Personally, I try to buy American whenever I have the option. I don't have as much choice as I used to, though. Our Subaru has cured me of any fantasies I had about the quality of Japanese cars. My old Plymouth Sundance was a much better car. In the case of both cars, the biggest issue has been the quality of the labor. Neither the Plymouth mechanics, nor the Subaru mechanics have shown any talent for maintenace or repair.

We need fewer people in college and more people in trade schools.



As a teacher, I see the growing trend in high schools that they are discontinueing shop classes. Wood shop, industrial arts, auto shop... they are dying breeds in our schools. Kids are being discouraged to enter into trade schools. They are being told, "you can't survive in todays world without a college degree." Then the school gets them to go to community college and they can brag that 98% of their seniors go on to college... It's scary.

Meanwhile there are less carpenters, plumbers, mechanics, etc. competing for business, and they are making more money during their first year out of school than DOCTORS. Basic laws of supply and demand.




This is so true. I work with computers and the majority of the people I work with do not have degrees, advanced or otherwise. The best HP/UX admin I know has a PHD in philosophy. Best backup guy I've worked with has an Eng. Lit degree. I know kids with degrees that are making coffee and flipping burgers. Anyone who thinks its about what you know instead of what you can do is fooling themselves. Pity our schools have become social engineering tools instead of places to learn.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:55:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gibby:


Being a father of three working two jobs plus being on the exec. board for my local, my feelings in this subject are mixed. I feel that lines should not be crossed. But some members such as myself really can't afford to miss "one" paycheck. There are way too many lower to lower middle class people who are living paycheck to paycheck.




I work for a non-union company. I haven't 'belonged' to a union since I was young and dumb (Teamsters local 377). I work on-site at a union place. I feel NO obligation to honor any picket line. Contractors and suppliers usually don't get much grief from the unions when there is a strike here. I am only worried about Joe Tire Slasher. Not many ways for him to know my truck belongs to someone who isn't filling any of their spots. I guess I'll just have to get a ride to work from Busmaster007 when that time comes.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 2:36:52 PM EDT
That's true. Not being a union member you have no obligation to honor a picket line. But the ones on the line have no way of knowing if you are a scab or not. Unless someone there knows you.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:31:32 PM EDT
Very clever, JAFO! Stir the pot and get a locked post. Prolly been a while since you had on of those?

The Carpenters are so pussified. As of two contracts ago we have a no strike clause. WTF is the use of being union if you can't threaten strike. I'd be suprised if the AGC has a no lockout clause. Boring also wants job security. Well, no shit! Who doesn't! Tough shit though. They get no sympathy from a union member who is only as good as his last day. On of the messed up things about some unions is that no matter what a lum you are, you can't get run off. Boring included, as I understand it.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:31:44 PM EDT
Used to be in IAM though not at Boeing, all I can say is that it is the most F'd up Union there is. IAM would run Boeing out of business and not think twice. IAM Union Thugs/Goons are the worst.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:12:36 PM EDT
I worked for a union job for a year and a half, I see no reason for unions anymore. Unions now seem to be more for themselves and less for their workers. I was not impressed by the board members or the shop stewerds. They were more interested in covering their own assets as opposed to standing up for their union members.

And to top it all off I made more money working security than I did working for the union. almost 11K more a year. and none of the money went into union dues.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:51:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:

Originally Posted By CavVet:
If you are talking about crossing a picket line, you dont need anything.

It comes down to what people think inside themselves nowdays. Long gone are the days of following scabs/ line crossers home and giving them the ballbat treatment they so deserve.

The way poeple send their money to China and Japan in record numbers, unions are the last thing the workers really care about. Me, me, me.....



You would have loved the Nord Door strike in Everett. In front of his family, a couple strikers went to a guy's home, threw gasoline on him and set him on fire while he was standing on his front porch, arguing about the strike. Seems that keeping a roof over their heads and feeding his kids was more important to him than than labor principles. Go figure...

Personally, I try to buy American whenever I have the option. I don't have as much choice as I used to, though. Our Subaru has cured me of any fantasies I had about the quality of Japanese cars. My old Plymouth Sundance was a much better car. In the case of both cars, the biggest issue has been the quality of the labor. Neither the Plymouth mechanics, nor the Subaru mechanics have shown any talent for maintenance or repair.

We need fewer people in college and more people in trade schools.




My old man was vice-president of Local 1054 when the Nord Door strike occured...he still maintains that they won the strike.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:54:13 PM EDT
didn't they just shut down the plant?
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:16:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HABU:

The Carpenters are so pussified. As of two contracts ago we have a no strike clause. WTF is the use of being union if you can't threaten strike.



That is why I laugh, FireFighters/LEO's/Dispatchers all have a No Strike Caluse. We ran out the Teamsters 5 years ago at my job, and have done nothing but better for our membership, A couple years ago, AFSME(??) Tried to get in to our place, and we spanked the hell out of them, and their sneaky backhanded shit.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:24:07 AM EDT
We have a no strike/no lock out clause.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:00:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 1:02:28 PM EDT by Stickman]

Originally Posted By CavVet:

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
You would have loved the Nord Door strike in Everett. In front of his family, a couple strikers went to a guy's home, threw gasoline on him and set him on fire while he was standing on his front porch, arguing about the strike. Seems that keeping a roof over their heads and feeding his kids was more important to him than than labor principles. Go figure...



Either way I have never had any sympathy for anything that happened as a byproduct of crossing a picket line.

I do have some sympathy for the family though. Too bad she maried such a maroon, and too bad the kids lost the DNA lottery in having such a stupid Dad.

Hindsight 20/20, wouldnt it have been mucho better to get another job?




Am I reading correctly that you have no problem with strikers coming onto this guys property, and setting him on fire in front of his family?

Hindsight being 20/20, he should have shot each one of them dead after they came onto his property with gasloine.....

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:17:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Hindsight being 20/20, he should have shot each one of them dead after they came onto his property with gasloine.....




I love the way you think....


Link Posted: 9/12/2005 9:32:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 9:33:24 AM EDT by JAFO]
www.heraldnet.com/stories/05/09/12/100loc_picketshots001.cfm


Shots shake picket line
A man escapes after shooting a truck following a dispute with striking Boeing Machinists.

By Herald Staff



EVERETT - An argument between a man and Machinists union members walking a picket line near the Boeing Co. plant erupted in gunfire early Sunday morning.

No one was hurt. Police have no indication that the shooting was related to the union's strike against Boeing, Snohomish County sheriff's deputy Dave Hayes said.

The man approached picketers about midnight in the 2300 block of 100th Street SW and asked for a cigarette, according to police. The man apparently didn't get a cigarette and yelled derogatory remarks at the Machinists, telling them to get back to work, police said.

...


Link Posted: 9/12/2005 9:55:31 AM EDT
The Union employee's are not getting any love from the businesses around them, that is for sure...

Im getting more and more calls at work from the population around the Strike sites.

one of the biggest probs is the Trespassing on Fluke property. I told security at fluke to start towing their cars and fileing Trespassing charges, and they have.....

Wonder of Strike pay is enough to get your car out of impound?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 9:58:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 9:59:04 AM EDT by sixgunsblazing]
-Wonder of Strike pay is enough to get your car out of impound?-


they might have enough after their garage sale....
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 10:42:57 AM EDT
Talking about American Made

The ammo pouches that the PX sells here are T.O.P. products "designed and enginnered in Texas and Oregon USA, made in China"

they are $12

I bought my ammo pouches off the net from Diamondback tactical, they cost more but they are a better design and they are made in the goold ol USA.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:08:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
-Wonder of Strike pay is enough to get your car out of impound?-


they might have enough after their garage sale....






Link Posted: 9/12/2005 1:31:58 PM EDT
BOEING MACHINIST LEAVING THE PLANT
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 6:40:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:
If you are talking about crossing a picket line, you dont need anything.

It comes down to what people think inside themselves nowdays. Long gone are the days of following scabs/ line crossers home and giving them the ballbat treatment they so deserve.

The way poeple send their money to China and Japan in record numbers, unions are the last thing the workers really care about. Me, me, me.....



+1

I have been on both sides of the fence and there are lots of pro's and con's both ways in todays market. The main difference weather or not you act as a group, strength in numbers, or the lone wolf. I don't know the ins and outs about this strike in paticular and don't care, but I hope they get everthing they ask for and more. It kinda makes me shake my head to see how much drama something like this can cause. Lets all remember here that these are negotiated contracts between both the workers/unions and companies/owners. If they both end up agreeing on a contract why the hell does anyone not involved else care what they do or ask for?? They could ask for green M&M's for all I give a shit...This goes both union and non-union if you think about it and sorry to say there are asshats that are BOTH union and non-union and lots of them on the company/owners side. It is always a few bad apples that make people on the outside get their panties in a bunch.


Lets hope they get things worked out before you guys buy up all their toys!!!


Link Posted: 9/13/2005 10:04:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tangeant:
Used to be in IAM though not at Boeing, all I can say is that it is the most F'd up Union there is. IAM would run Boeing out of business and not think twice. IAM Union Thugs/Goons are the worst.



"She who must be obeyed" is an IAM member at Alaska, some of the material the IAM leadership puts out is classic Marxist drivel. Some of their actions though, are closer to the Marx Brothers.....
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