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Posted: 10/24/2004 12:22:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 12:24:09 PM EST by CVD]
Hello all, I'm wondering if any of you guys have a line on anything in writing that says I can get my permit to purchase at the age of 20. The problem I am having is that I am trying to buy an AR and my FFL says no way without a permit. The Savage PD refused my application because I am under 21. But as I understand it at the state level you only need to be 18 to aquire a permit to purchase. How can I prove this to the PD???


I sarted this thread in the main area if you want to get caught up on the specific situation:

Cant Legally buy my AR
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 1:11:18 PM EST
AFAIK 18 for posession 21 to purchase

www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stix2004/F/FI/firearms.html
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 1:23:02 PM EST
I got my first permit at 18. I also bought my AR at 20 at sportsman's warehouse. You may not need it, unless I screwed up!
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 2:16:36 PM EST
bring in the copy of the law.

I was 18 when I first got my Pistol permit.

I still is 18 to buy rifle assult or non.

21 to buy a handgun
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 6:17:07 PM EST
I turned 18 on the 6th, turned in my paperwork, and I recieved my permit last friday.

He needs to give you the permit.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 10:18:24 AM EST
I posted this on the other thread. I thought I would throw it up here just to update you guys:


I dug up the laws on this and here is what I found:

From Minnesota Statutes 2004: http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/624/7131.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
624.7131 Transferee permit; penalty.

Subdivision 1. Information. Any person may apply for
a transferee permit by providing the following information in
writing to the chief of police of an organized full time police
department of the municipality in which the person resides or to
the county sheriff if there is no such local chief of police:
......................

Subd. 4. Grounds for disqualification. A
determination by the chief of police or sheriff that the
applicant is prohibited by section 624.713 from possessing a
pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon shall be
the only basis for refusal to grant a transferee permit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, now we're getting somewhere. What does section 624.713 have to say about it? Why this:


MN Statutes - 624.713
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subdivision 1. Ineligible persons. The following
persons shall not be entitled to possess a pistol or
semiautomatic military-style assault weapon or, except for
clause (a), any other firearm:

(a) a person under the age of 18 years except that a person
under 18 may carry or possess a pistol or semiautomatic
military-style assault weapon (i) in the actual presence or
under the direct supervision of the person's parent or guardian,
(ii) for the purpose of military drill under the auspices of a
legally recognized military organization and under competent
supervision, (iii) for the purpose of instruction, competition,
or target practice on a firing range approved by the chief of
police or county sheriff in whose jurisdiction the range is
located and under direct supervision; or (iv) if the person has
successfully completed a course designed to teach marksmanship
and safety with a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault
weapon and approved by the commissioner of natural resources;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So I highlighted these sections and brought the complete laws into my PD. The clerk there read them over and STILL had the guts to argue with me. Saying that because it is against federal law for me to buy a handgun, they cant issue the permit because the permit specifically states that I can "Legally purchase a pistol from a federally licensed firearms dealer"
I then tried to explain to her that I could own these guns, I could even buy these guns, I could be transferred these guns from other people, but that it would be illegal for them to SELL me one regardless of what the permit said.

They said they would "look it over and get back to me." I'm about to take it up with the district court, but I hesitate because I dont know how long it will take if I go that route.

In all I am simply stunned by the amount of bullheaded willful ignorance displayed by my police department.

Link Posted: 10/25/2004 2:17:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By CVD:



So I highlighted these sections and brought the complete laws into my PD. The clerk there read them over and STILL had the guts to argue with me. Saying that because it is against federal law for me to buy a handgun, they cant issue the permit because the permit specifically states that I can "Legally purchase a pistol from a federally licensed firearms dealer"
I then tried to explain to her that I could own these guns, I could even buy these guns, I could be transferred these guns from other people, but that it would be illegal for them to SELL me one regardless of what the permit said.


They said they would "look it over and get back to me." I'm about to take it up with the district court, but I hesitate because I dont know how long it will take if I go that route.

In all I am simply stunned by the amount of bullheaded willful ignorance displayed by my police department.




Bellow is exactly what the permit says. That clerk is full of it. Note the part that says the you CANT buy a pistol from a Federally Lic. Dealer

RESTRICTIONS The following restrictions apply to the possession of firearms, to transferee permits, and reports of transfer for handguns and semiautomatic military-style assault weapons.
•Must be at least 18 years old to acquire or possess a handgun or semiautomatic military-style assault weapons, but under federal law must be at least 21 years old to acquire handguns from licensed dealers
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 8:09:43 PM EST
We've had 18 year-olds come into our office asking for permit apps. The one kid I dealt with stated he was buying a Bushmaster Varminter. I told him that he didn't need a permit due to it being a post-ban rifle and he stated that the dealer told him he did.

I asked the dealer and have asked a couple since and they stated it was in MNs definition of "semi-automatic assault weapon". They explained that in the states definition a "semi-automatic assault weapon" is (whatever the definition is) but also states something like "or any copy thereof with similar action, blah,blah,blah". I was told this was to cover their rears because even post-ban guns were "copies of banned rifles with similar actions."

So, some dealers are making people get permits for what were post-ban rifles and, at least in my opinion, available to anyone.

I apologize for not citing my source in reference to the state's definition of assault weapon but I think you get the idea.

From this, it is possible that you can find a dealer who will do the transfer without a permit if that's feasible. As for dealing with the PD, I really can't offer any suggestions. Each department is different and unless you can find someone who knows a thing or two about FFLs and ATF paperwork you may be SOL.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 8:31:48 PM EST
How about trying another gunshop? Always try the obvious that the idiot running the shop will NEVER admit that he's an IDIOT even if you prove it to him, the county sherrif, ARFCOM and the world!

Some walls will never break, no matter how hard you beat your head against them! As my wise father reminded me from time to time before he past. Something I always rememberd.

Best of luck!

Enjoy the sport!
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 10:17:26 PM EST
Well, I spoke with another local FFL today and he confirmed that a permit was needed. Though he said that it need not be a permit to purchase a handgun per say and that the PD could word the permit in any way that makes them feel comfortable. He said that it is the dealer's responsibility not to sell handguns to people under the age of 21 and not the purchaser's.


I am going to take all of the information I have gathered so far and make my case to the issuing officer tomorrow (rather than the clerk that keeps giving me the runaround) and see what happens.

Thanks for all your help so far,

Chris
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 4:41:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By CVD:
Well, I spoke with another local FFL today and he confirmed that a permit was needed. Though he said that it need not be a permit to purchase a handgun per say and that the PD could word the permit in any way that makes them feel comfortable. He said that it is the dealer's responsibility not to sell handguns to people under the age of 21 and not the purchaser's.


I am going to take all of the information I have gathered so far and make my case to the issuing officer tomorrow (rather than the clerk that keeps giving me the runaround) and see what happens.

Thanks for all your help so far,

Chris




If you need any help on anything at all, let me know. I was worried that I would be in your exact situation when I applied for my permit because I too am 18. I'll be glad to help you out in any way possible as I can kind of relate to this. problem.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 2:45:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 2:52:11 PM EST by Hollywood304]
One other thought might be to buy a complete lower, which you shouldn't need a permit for, and then buy a seperate upper. Might be the easiest way to get one.

ETA

Never mind, I read the other thread. I do think the dealer you're buying from is an idiot, because it doesn't qualify as an assault rifle, since it is just a lower. The following is from the BCA website. the dealer can't say it's an assault weapon, since it doesn't have the features.

BUREAU OF CRIMINAL APPREHENSION
LIST OF FIREARMS INCLUDED WITHIN THE DEFINITION OF "SEMIAUTOMATIC MILITARY-STYLE ASSAULT WEAPON"
AUGUST 1, 2001

Pursuant to Minnesota Statutes 624.712, Subdivision 8, the following is the BCA's current authoritative list of the firearms included within the definition of "semiautomatic military-style assault weapon".

A firearm is considered to be a semiautomatic military-style assault weapon if it is:

Any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms, in any caliber, known as:



Norinco, Mitchell and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models),

Beretta AR-70 (SC 70)

Colt AR-15

FabriqueNationale FN-FAL, FN-LAR and FN-FNC,

Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil,

Intratec TEC-9, TEC-DC9

SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9 and M-12,

Steyr AUG and

Revolving-cylinder shotguns such as or similar to Street Sweeper and Striker -12.



A semi-automatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:

Folding or telescoping stock,

Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,

Bayonet mount,

Flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor,

Grenade launcher.



A semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:

Ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol side of the pistol grip,

Threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extended, flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer,

Shroud that is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned,

Manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded,

Semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm.



A semi automatic shotgun that has at least two of the following:

Folding or telescoping stock,

Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,

Fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds,

Ability to accept a detachable magazine.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:37:13 PM EST
Don't buy one from FAC, they needed my permit because they considered a stripped lower an assault weapon.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 12:11:38 AM EST
Interesting. Thanks for the good info guys!

I think my PD is FINALLY going to give in. They said it should only take another day or two for me to get my permit. I do like that FFL, but as soon as I have my stripped lower in my hands I'll be switching. I found a great FFL that's far closer and far cheaper.

Thanks again for all your help guys. I'm confident that it will all be worth the trouble in the end.

Chris
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