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Posted: 3/28/2008 9:30:49 AM EDT
I have a Colt REGISTERED Match Target (didn't want to, but I bit the bullet and did it), and I have an OLL Fulton .308 w/bullet button.

I've been told, that since my Colt is registered, that I can use all the detachable hi-cap mags I want to even include my 100 round beta mag and my OLL Fulton is limited to no greater than 10 rounders here in Cali.

Is that how this HI-cap mag stuff works?
Link Posted: 3/28/2008 9:42:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2008 9:42:17 AM EDT by uglygun]

Originally Posted By 1Outlaw:
I have a Colt REGISTERED Match Target (didn't want to, but I bit the bullet and did it), and I have an OLL Fulton .308 w/bullet button.

I've been told, that since my Colt is registered, that I can use all the detachable hi-cap mags I want to even include my 100 round beta mag and my OLL Fulton is limited to no greater than 10 rounders here in Cali.

Is that how this HI-cap mag stuff works?



If you go with the bullet button route, 10 rounds is the limit.   Somebody else can explain why exactly you can't go with a 20-30 round fixed mag.


But if you go with an evil-less feature rifle(sans pistol grip, flash suppressor, the whole 9 yards), if you've got normal capacity magazines you should be able to make use of them with a detachable mag(same rules as apply to a Non-AW M1A or a mini-14).
Link Posted: 3/28/2008 11:51:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2008 11:52:45 AM EDT by DnPRK]
Yes, with registered stuff you can use any of your grandfathered standard capacity magazines.

OLLs w/BBs are limited to 10 rounds.
Link Posted: 3/28/2008 5:08:24 PM EDT
The high cap mags work as follows: you may keep high-cap magazines that you owned before 01/01/2000. You may use these in firearms where their use would be legal (ie: if you have an AR15 that allows the use of high cap magazines, then you may use it in them)

The other thing at play is the use of a bullet button. The BB makes the magazine a "fixed'" magazine. If you fix a magazine with greater than ten rounds to a semi-auto centerfire rifle, it is an assault weapon.

You may use all magazines in your registered AW AR15. You may use only ten round or lesser capacity in your BB-equipped AR
Link Posted: 3/31/2008 7:48:03 PM EDT
But with a Monsterman Grip or a U-15 stock he can use his preban mags and standard mag release buttons if he doesn't have any evil features.
Link Posted: 3/31/2008 8:13:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By iShot2Pac:
But with a Monsterman Grip or a U-15 stock he can use his preban mags and standard mag release buttons if he doesn't have any evil features.


That doesn't apply to registered AWs.
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 4:37:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2008 4:38:48 PM EDT by CWDraco]

Originally Posted By DnPRK:
Yes, with registered stuff you can use any of your grandfathered standard capacity magazines.

OLLs w/BBs are limited to 10 rounds.


WRONG
You can have BOTH a MMG and BB on a OLL and use 30rd mags bought before 1/1/2000

Dude please read laws before you post.  this is how bad info gets past around.  I'm not trying to start a war, but hold off posting till a lot of others have.

You are allowed to use any thing you want in your registered Colt.  You can even have a Pistol grip, a collapsing stock, a 30rd mag, a forward grip...all is good BECAUSE ITS REGISTERED>

Now, if you owned the high cap (or standard) mags BEFORE 1/1/2000 you may use them in ANY firearm they fit...AS LONG AS that firearm will not be considered an Assault Weapon when you do.  So if you have a Monster Man Grip or U-15 on the OLL, you may use the high cap mag. Also you can not put a forward grip, on it.

read why your OLL Ar15 is legal, and make sure you don't violate that law.

Link Posted: 4/1/2008 4:41:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Josh3239:

Originally Posted By iShot2Pac:
But with a Monsterman Grip or a U-15 stock he can use his preban mags and standard mag release buttons if he doesn't have any evil features.


That doesn't apply to registered AWs.


Correct, once the weapon is a REGISTERED ASSAULT WEAPON...the only EVIL feature is Full Auto / Silencer / Barrel less then 16"  without a license
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 4:53:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leelaw:
The high cap mags work as follows: you may keep high-cap magazines that you owned before 01/01/2000. You may use these in firearms where their use would be legal (ie: if you have an AR15 that allows the use of high cap magazines, then you may use it in them)

The other thing at play is the use of a bullet button. The BB makes the magazine a "fixed'" magazine. If you fix a magazine with greater than ten rounds to a semi-auto centerfire rifle, it is an assault weapon.

You may use all magazines in your registered AW AR15. You may use only ten round or lesser capacity in your BB-equipped AR


WRONG

A BB doesn't make a fixed mag..it makes a mag a ATTACHABLE MAG, it is only illegal to have an OLL with a DETACHABLE MAG...see the difference.  You are allowed to have 10,000,000 10rd mags and just keep swapping them out at the range, as long as you need a tool to remove them.

a Fixed Mag is one that can not be installed or removed without a tool.  To my knowledge California has NEVER defined a Fixed Mag...they only Defined a Detachable Mag.

So if i took a 30rd mag and welded it in my OLL, I just made an illegal AW, even if I owned the mag before 1/1/2000 and the OLL doesnt have evil features.  But by using a BB and a MMG I am not making an AW...I dont have a fixed mag, any other evil features and have owned the mag prior to 1/1/2000
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 5:20:33 PM EDT
CWDraco, it is the same thing. Call it what you will, fixed magazine or attachable it means the same thing. By California's definition the magazine is indeed fixed, by California's definition it is not detachable.
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 5:24:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Josh3239:
CWDraco, it is the same thing. Call it what you will, fixed magazine or attachable it means the same thing. By California's definition the magazine is indeed fixed, by California's definition it is not detachable.


No its not the same thing....thats the point that allows you to remove a 10rd mag and insert a fully loaded mag without violating the law.

a Prince 50 makes a fixed mag a BB doesnt.
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 5:46:26 PM EDT
CWDraco,

You pointed out some good stuff.  I (like most people) probably thought "FIXED" and the definition of "Detachable" were the same.

So I looked up 12276.1(a)

(1) semi auto, center fire rifle that has the capacity to accept a DETACHABLE magazine AND any one of the following:.....

So the question is...

OLL, BB, PISTOL GRIP, 30" in length, 20 round magazine.... legal or not?

I don't have the "Detachable magazine" to go with the "and any one of following" (referring to the pistol grip).
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 5:52:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Outlaw:
CWDraco,

You pointed out some good stuff.  I (like most people) probably thought "FIXED" and the definition of "Detachable" were the same.

So I looked up 12276.1(a)

(1) semi auto, center fire rifle that has the capacity to accept a DETACHABLE magazine AND any one of the following:.....

So the question is...

OLL, BB, PISTOL GRIP, 30" in length, 20 round magazine.... legal or not?

I don't have the "Detachable magazine" to go with the "and any one of following" (referring to the pistol grip).


Illegal unless you also have a u15 or standard stock and an MMG  PLUS the mag has to have been OWNED by you prior to 1/1/2000

you can not have a pistol grip, (any grip which the web of the thumb and first finger ALLOW a pistol syle grasp below the exposed trigger, or thumbhole type stock) and a mag over 10rds.
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 5:55:04 PM EDT
I tend to think that the DOJ would mean FIXED if it meant fixed and detachable if it meant that.

My Remington 700 has a fixed/blind magazine.  It's not detachable, or attachable.
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 6:00:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CWDraco:

Originally Posted By Josh3239:
CWDraco, it is the same thing. Call it what you will, fixed magazine or attachable it means the same thing. By California's definition the magazine is indeed fixed, by California's definition it is not detachable.


No its not the same thing....thats the point that allows you to remove a 10rd mag and insert a fully loaded mag without violating the law.

a Prince 50 makes a fixed mag a BB doesnt.


CWDraco, you're being very authoritative about it, but you're exceedingly wrong.  A "fixed" magazine is any magazine that requires a tool to remove whether that tool is a bullet tip or a monkey wrench.  Magazines are either fixed or detachable, there's no third option.  A Prince 50 kit and a Bullet Button are different products that achieve the exact same thing: A "fixed" magazine that requires a tool to remove, any tool.

And your own advice of not posting bad information should be heeded when it comes to an AW: Any semi-auto rifle with a fixed-magazine capacity of more than 10 rounds is an AW by definition.  Your legally-possessed 10,000 round magazine cannot be legally used in a fixed-magazine rifle set-up unless that rifle is already a registered AW.
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 6:13:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Outlaw:
CWDraco,

You pointed out some good stuff.  I (like most people) probably thought "FIXED" and the definition of "Detachable" were the same.

So I looked up 12276.1(a)

(1) semi auto, center fire rifle that has the capacity to accept a DETACHABLE magazine AND any one of the following:.....

So the question is...

OLL, BB, PISTOL GRIP, 30" in length, 20 round magazine.... legal or not?

I don't have the "Detachable magazine" to go with the "and any one of following" (referring to the pistol grip).


CWDraco is providing some dangerously inaccurate info, though humorously.

The hypothetical set-up is illegal due to the 20-round mag.  The bullet-button eliminates the "capacity to accept a detachable magazine" but you are backing into an AW by using a 20-round mag with it since a semi-auto rifle with a fixed magazine capacity of over 10 rounds is also an AW.  You'd need a 10-round mag with the bullet button to be legal.

The Monster Man Grip being mentioned is a completely different product that addresses the AW issue from "features" side rather than by magazine.  If you want to retain your ability to use detachable hi-cap magazines, then you need to remove the AW-qualifying features like the telestock/collapsible stock and the  pistol grip.  The MMG is designed to replace the normal AW-qualifying pistol grip with a practical grip that does not qualify as a "pistol grip."  Using a MMG and a fixed stock, you can then use a hi-cap detachable magazine without the rifle being an AW.  Think of a Ruger Mini-14 or a Springfield Armory M1A and this is the same legal configuration you are creating using a MMG and fixed stock.
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 6:25:57 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By Josh3239:
height=8
Originally Posted By iShot2Pac:
But with a Monsterman Grip or a U-15 stock he can use his preban mags and standard mag release buttons if he doesn't have any evil features.


That doesn't apply to registered AWs.


I was referring to his OLL.

MMG or U15 + featureless = ability to use detachable preban hicap mags

BB + any features you want = fixed mag build
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 6:41:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:

Originally Posted By 1Outlaw:
CWDraco,

You pointed out some good stuff.  I (like most people) probably thought "FIXED" and the definition of "Detachable" were the same.

So I looked up 12276.1(a)

(1) semi auto, center fire rifle that has the capacity to accept a DETACHABLE magazine AND any one of the following:.....

So the question is...

OLL, BB, PISTOL GRIP, 30" in length, 20 round magazine.... legal or not?

I don't have the "Detachable magazine" to go with the "and any one of following" (referring to the pistol grip).


CWDraco is providing some dangerously inaccurate info, though humorously.

The hypothetical set-up is illegal due to the 20-round mag.  The bullet-button eliminates the "capacity to accept a detachable magazine" but you are backing into an AW by using a 20-round mag with it since a semi-auto rifle with a fixed magazine capacity of over 10 rounds is also an AW.  You'd need a 10-round mag with the bullet button to be legal.

The Monster Man Grip being mentioned is a completely different product that addresses the AW issue from "features" side rather than by magazine.  If you want to retain your ability to use detachable hi-cap magazines, then you need to remove the AW-qualifying features like the telestock/collapsible stock and the  pistol grip.  The MMG is designed to replace the normal AW-qualifying pistol grip with a practical grip that does not qualify as a "pistol grip."  Using a MMG and a fixed stock, you can then use a hi-cap detachable magazine without the rifle being an AW.  Think of a Ruger Mini-14 or a Springfield Armory M1A and this is the same legal configuration you are creating using a MMG and fixed stock.


LOL...you are 100% WRONG on the mag thing.  Go to Calguns and talk to the lawyers over there...
Yes I have a MMG without a BB, I was using the situation of both since you or others seem to believe using a BB means 10rds only...IT DOES NOT..ONCE YOU INSTALL a MMG, installing a BB doesnt STOP you from using your LEGAL 30rd mags.

FTR I do not use CalGuns, nor do I have an active account there.

A BB is a device that permits the user to insert a mag, but needs a tool to detact the mag.  thereby complying with CA law.

A prince 50 will not do that.  the SECOND you unscrew the set-screw that stops the mag release button from working you have an UNREGISTERED AW!...unless you first remove all OTHER illegal features.  When that screw comes loose either by means of a tool or other means (vibration) you are no long in possession of a NON-AW...the weapon is by CA definition an AW and since you never registered it..its unregistered...get it!!!!

Now CA defined a "detachable Mag"...as one that allows the user to remove the mag during normal operation of the weapon.  they added to that the use of a tool is allowed, and a bullet is a tool....they NEVER EVER SAID this is a fixed mag.

It is possible CA DOJ has changed the law since I last looked at it...who knows maybe they state any mag must be permanent fixed...please show me that.. that would also mean the MMG is useless in CA.
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 6:55:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2008 7:14:59 PM EDT by CWDraco]
#1---A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.

My weapon doesnt have a pistol grip, nor a DETACHABLE mag...nor any other feature

#2---A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

My weapon doesnt have a "fixed" magazine.

My weapon is a Stag-15 with a MMG.  Adding a BB will not change it, since a BB doesnt make a "FIXED" magazine.....its simply non-detachable.

If I weld a 30rd mag to the Stag 15 OLL I have made an AW, which is illegal under #2 EVEN if it has no other illegal features.  welding the mag (or a Prince 50 ) creates a Fixed Magazine

Please show me a California law stating or defining a "fixed magazine" and please show me a California law that defines or states a BB modified OLL means you can not SWAP mags while firing or using the weapon....
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 7:15:38 PM EDT
Has it been said that mags can't be swapped out while using the rifle?
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 7:22:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2008 7:40:32 PM EDT by Homeinvader]

Originally Posted By CWDraco:

LOL...you are 100% WRONG on the mag thing.  Go to Calguns and talk to the lawyers over there...
Yes I have a MMG without a BB, I was using the situation of both since you or others seem to believe using a BB means 10rds only...IT DOES NOT..ONCE YOU INSTALL a MMG, installing a BB doesnt STOP you from using your LEGAL 30rd mags.

FTR I do not use CalGuns, nor do I have an active account there.

A BB is a device that permits the user to insert a mag, but needs a tool to detact the mag.  thereby complying with CA law.

A prince 50 will not do that.  the SECOND you unscrew the set-screw that stops the mag release button from working you have an UNREGISTERED AW!...unless you first remove all OTHER illegal features.  When that screw comes loose either by means of a tool or other means (vibration) you are no long in possession of a NON-AW...the weapon is by CA definition an AW and since you never registered it..its unregistered...get it!!!!

Now CA defined a "detachable Mag"...as one that allows the user to remove the mag during normal operation of the weapon.  they added to that the use of a tool is allowed, and a bullet is a tool....they NEVER EVER SAID this is a fixed mag.

It is possible CA DOJ has changed the law since I last looked at it...who knows maybe they state any mag must be permanent fixed...please show me that.. that would also mean the MMG is useless in CA.


Having a very hard time following you here...

Using BOTH a MMG and a BB is....pointless.  If you have a BB, it removes any and all possibility of the rifle becoming an AW.  You don't need the MMG with the BB.  If you want to use hi-caps, then yes you need the MMG.

A Prince50 kit is a first-generation modification to delete the "capacity to accept a detachable mag". It's intended and designed to create a virtual permanent magazine, not one that is removable (but not "detachable"). It uses a set-screw to block the function of the existing magazine release. It requires the use of an allen wrench to unscrew a set screw. If the set screw is loosened, thereby allowing the mag release to work freely, then you do in fact have an AW since the rifle now has the "capacity to accept a detachable magazine." The intended method to reload a Prince50-equipped AR is to pop the rear take-down pin and lift the upper receiver to access the magazine from the top. This creates a FAB-10 type lower receiver.  The danger of the Prince50 is exactly as you state, it can and does loosen during extended firing, sometimes unbeknownst to the owner. If the mag falls out or can be pulled out, there's a violation.  The Prince50 requires disassembly of the firearm which qualifies to avoid "Detachable" as defined below.

The Bullet Button is a second-generation modification that ingeniously does the exact same thing without the need to disassemble anything, still requires a "tool" yet allows the magazine to be removable without being "detachable."  The Bullet Button is an entirely new mag release assembly that requires a small diameter tool to activate the mag release. The access to the release is far too small to activate using a finger and since it's not finger-activated, it requires a tool.  It also lessens the danger of felonious loosening since it uses the same tried and true mechanics of a normal, unmodified AR mag release: If properly inserted, AR mags do not fall out by themselves.  The Bullet Button requires a "tool" thereby avoiding "Detachable" as defined below.

Onward...


Now CA defined a "detachable Mag"...as one that allows the user to remove the mag during normal operation of the weapon.  they added to that the use of a tool is allowed, and a bullet is a tool....they NEVER EVER SAID this is a fixed mag.


Your statement is completely unsupported by any official DOJ documentation, the law or the regulations.

Right from the regs:

“‘[D]etachable magazine’ means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily
 from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required.  
 A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool."

The proper term for an ammunition feeding device that is NOT "detachable" is Fixed, not because this was decided by committee on an internet forum, but because the term "Fixed" appears in 12776.1(1)(2) "A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds."
There is no third type of "magazine feeding device" as that term pertains to "Assault Weapon."





Link Posted: 4/1/2008 7:37:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2008 7:41:17 PM EDT by Homeinvader]

Originally Posted By 1Outlaw:
Has it been said that mags can't be swapped out while using the rifle?


Yes, it's been said.  You can swap out 10-round mags for 10-round mags using a Bullet Button, but you can never under any circumstances use a hi-cap in your OLL build if you use any product that alters the "capacity to accept detachable magazine." To use hi-caps you need to build the gun addressing the physical features:  You'd have a semi-automatic center-fire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and NONE of the listed features.
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 7:40:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:

Originally Posted By CWDraco:

LOL...you are 100% WRONG on the mag thing.  Go to Calguns and talk to the lawyers over there...
Yes I have a MMG without a BB, I was using the situation of both since you or others seem to believe using a BB means 10rds only...IT DOES NOT..ONCE YOU INSTALL a MMG, installing a BB doesnt STOP you from using your LEGAL 30rd mags.

FTR I do not use CalGuns, nor do I have an active account there.

A BB is a device that permits the user to insert a mag, but needs a tool to detact the mag.  thereby complying with CA law.

A prince 50 will not do that.  the SECOND you unscrew the set-screw that stops the mag release button from working you have an UNREGISTERED AW!...unless you first remove all OTHER illegal features.  When that screw comes loose either by means of a tool or other means (vibration) you are no long in possession of a NON-AW...the weapon is by CA definition an AW and since you never registered it..its unregistered...get it!!!!

Now CA defined a "detachable Mag"...as one that allows the user to remove the mag during normal operation of the weapon.  they added to that the use of a tool is allowed, and a bullet is a tool....they NEVER EVER SAID this is a fixed mag.

It is possible CA DOJ has changed the law since I last looked at it...who knows maybe they state any mag must be permanent fixed...please show me that.. that would also mean the MMG is useless in CA.


Having a very hard time following you here...

Using BOTH a MMG and a BB is....pointless.  If you have a BB, it removes any and all possibility of the rifle becoming an AW.  You don't need the MMG with the BB.  If you want to use hi-caps, then yes you need the MMG.

A Prince50 kit is a first-generation modification to delete the "capacity to accept a detachable mag". It's intended and designed to create a virtual permanent magazine, not one that is removable (but not "detachable"). It uses a set-screw to block the function of the existing magazine release. It requires the use of an allen wrench to unscrew a set screw. If the set screw is loosened, thereby allowing the mag release to work freely, then you do in fact have an AW since the rifle now has the "capacity to accept a detachable magazine." The intended method to reload a Prince50-equipped AR is to pop the rear take-down pin and lift the upper receiver to access the magazine from the top. This creates a FAB-10 type lower receiver.  The danger of the Prince50 is exactly as you state, it can and does loosen during extended firing, sometimes unbeknownst to the owner. If the mag falls out or can be pulled out, there's a violation.  The Prince50 requires disassembly which qualifies to avoid "Detachable" as defined below.

The Bullet Button is a second-generation modification that ingeniously does the exact same thing without the need to disassemble anything, still requires a "tool" yet allows the magazine to be removable without being "detachable."  The Bullet Button is an entirely new mag release assembly that requires a small diameter tool to activate the mag release. The access to the release is far too small to activate using a finger and since it's not finger-activated, it requires a tool.  It also lessens the danger of felonious loosening since it uses the same tried and true mechanics of a normal, unmodified AR mag release: If properly inserted, AR mags do not fall out by themselves.  The Bullet Button requires a "tool" thereby avoiding "Detachable" as defined below.

Onward...


Now CA defined a "detachable Mag"...as one that allows the user to remove the mag during normal operation of the weapon.  they added to that the use of a tool is allowed, and a bullet is a tool....they NEVER EVER SAID this is a fixed mag.


Your statement is completely unsupported by any official DOJ documentation, the law or the regulations.

Right from the regs:

“‘[D]etachable magazine’ means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily
 from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required.  
 A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool."

The proper term for an ammunition feeding device that is NOT "detachable" is Fixed, not because this was decided by committee on an internet forum, but because the term "Fixed" appears in 12776.1(1)(2) "A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds."
There is no third type of "magazine feeding device" as that term pertains to "Assault Weapon."







Ok
1- I was talking about MMg and a BB to prove a BB doesnt mean no 30rd mags

2- the

“‘[D]etachable magazine’ means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily
 from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required.  
 A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool."

you are using wasnt the first draft...the original draft stating "during normal use of the weapon...blah blah blah.  they cut it down to "removed readily
 from the firearm"

NO WHERE DOES ANY LAW IN CA STATE A BB MODIFIED OLL IS A FIXED MAGAZINE LOWER...you have NOT fixed the magazine...you have simply made the lower comply with  Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:


adding a BB doesnt mean you have a FIXED magazine..in fact it has been used AGAINST AR15 owners that a BB IS NOT a fixed magazine.

Once again...CA has NEVER defined a "fixed magazine"

so if a BB is not a fixed magazine by CA DOJ and 58 DAs...then
an MMG with a BB doesnt violate A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

reading the law takes time and energy...I know its complicated.

i also know that CALGUNS.NET is completely wrong on this.  I have seen their stupid "flow Chart"...that flow chart is not THE LAW!
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 8:01:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:

Originally Posted By 1Outlaw:
Has it been said that mags can't be swapped out while using the rifle?


Yes, it's been said.  You can swap out 10-round mags for 10-round mags using a Bullet Button, but you can never under any circumstances use a hi-cap in your OLL build if you use any product that alters the "capacity to accept detachable magazine." To use hi-caps you need to build the gun addressing the physical features:  You'd have a semi-automatic center-fire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and NONE of the listed features.


I'm not following...its late..I need sleep.

Here is the question....if it is completely LEGAL to remove an empty 10rd mag using a BB, then install a full 10rd mag and then continue firing...do you in fact have a "fixed magazine" weapon?   IMHO, "NO".  You simply have a semi-auto with a non-detachable magazine.

Now...follow me here......if that same BB OLL doesnt have ANY evil features AND you have a LEGAL 30rd magazine, and a BB OLL isnt a "Fixed Magazine" OLL...why can't you use it?  IMHO, "You can."  You are not violating the (2) law on semi-auto with a fixed magazine over 10rds.
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 8:05:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2008 8:26:02 PM EDT by Homeinvader]

Originally Posted By CWDraco:

Ok
1- I was talking about MMg and a BB to prove a BB doesnt mean no 30rd mags

2- the

“‘[D]etachable magazine’ means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily
 from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required.  
 A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool."

you are using wasnt the first draft...the original draft stating "during normal use of the weapon...blah blah blah.  they cut it down to "removed readily
 from the firearm"

NO WHERE DOES ANY LAW IN CA STATE A BB MODIFIED OLL IS A FIXED MAGAZINE LOWER...you have NOT fixed the magazine...you have simply made the lower comply with  Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:


adding a BB doesnt mean you have a FIXED magazine..in fact it has been used AGAINST AR15 owners that a BB IS NOT a fixed magazine.

Once again...CA has NEVER defined a "fixed magazine"

so if a BB is not a fixed magazine by CA DOJ and 58 DAs...then
an MMG with a BB doesnt violate A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

reading the law takes time and energy...I know its complicated.

i also know that CALGUNS.NET is completely wrong on this.  I have seen their stupid "flow Chart"...that flow chart is not THE LAW!


Wow. There's clearly something going on with your drinking water...

CA DOJ has argued that the BB is not a "Fixed" magazine so it'll then become a "Detachable" magazine, worthy of prosecution as an unregistered AW. Magazines are either "Fixed" or "Detachable". Again, the existence of some third type of magazine-to-weapon relationship is completely absent in all law, regulation and official correspondence. UFOs and Jesus have more substantiation than this.

You've made it clear that you're interpreting the law and regs yourself rather than reviewing and incorporating scholarly material on the subject and, by your own admission, that things have changed since you last looked. You're quoting (probably misquoting) old regs and misinterpreting the new ones.  You tell me to go consult the lawyers on Calguns.net in one post, then say Calguns.net has it all wrong in another. I don't have the calories to chase you any further.

Anyone interested in this subject should visit Calguns.net, contrary to CWDraco's advice, this entire concept was invented there.  All the documentation correcting CWDraco is available there for your own study.

This is probably the best primer on the subject:

Memo to Law Enforcement

Back to our regularly scheduled programming....




Link Posted: 4/1/2008 8:22:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:

Originally Posted By CWDraco:

Ok
1- I was talking about MMg and a BB to prove a BB doesnt mean no 30rd mags

2- the

“‘[D]etachable magazine’ means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily
 from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required.  
 A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool."

you are using wasnt the first draft...the original draft stating "during normal use of the weapon...blah blah blah.  they cut it down to "removed readily
 from the firearm"

NO WHERE DOES ANY LAW IN CA STATE A BB MODIFIED OLL IS A FIXED MAGAZINE LOWER...you have NOT fixed the magazine...you have simply made the lower comply with  Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:


adding a BB doesnt mean you have a FIXED magazine..in fact it has been used AGAINST AR15 owners that a BB IS NOT a fixed magazine.

Once again...CA has NEVER defined a "fixed magazine"

so if a BB is not a fixed magazine by CA DOJ and 58 DAs...then
an MMG with a BB doesnt violate A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

reading the law takes time and energy...I know its complicated.

i also know that CALGUNS.NET is completely wrong on this.  I have seen their stupid "flow Chart"...that flow chart is not THE LAW!


Wow. There's clearly something going on with your drinking water...

CA DOJ has argued that the BB is not a "Fixed" magazine so it'll then become a "Detachable" magazine, worthy of prosecution as an unregistered AW. Magazines are either "Fixed" or "Detachable". Again, the existence of some third type of magazine-to-weapon relationship is completely absent in all law, regulation and official correspondence. UFOs and Jesus have more substantiation than this.

You've made it clear that you're interpreting the law and regs yourself rather than reviewing and incorporating scholarly material on the subject and, by your own admission, that things have changed since you last looked. You're quoting (probably misquoting) old regs and misinterpreting the new ones.  You tell me to go consult the lawyers on Calguns.net in one post, then say Calguns.net has it all wrong in another. I don't have the calories to chase you any further.

Anyone interested in this subject should visit Calguns.net, contrary to CWDraco's advice, this entire concept was invented there.  All the documentation correcting CWDraco is available there for your own study.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming....






LOL...No you are saying there is only two types of magazine...the DOJ has no AUTHORITY to say if there is 1, 2 or 10000000 types of mags...the DOJ can not make shit up...you are giving them more power then they have...this is the problem with CALGUNS.NET and most Californians.

a- the law is the law as it is written..PERIOD.  Why do you not understand we went to the SCoCA to fight the DOJ adding shit to the law?  

Law 1 states Detachable mag...they then define a Detachable mag.
Law 2 states Fixed mag.  they have stating a Fixed mag, and it doesn't comply with a AR15 Mag held non-detachable with a BB.....AND further more they have not defined through law what a fixed mag is.

Yes this is hypothetical, since it would be silly to have a MMG and BB, but this just shows how silly the laws are.

But I find it very sad that you and most Ca resident s who own firearms cower to the DOJ and give them power over that YOU have never given them in the first place.

CALGUNS banned me 5 years ago for giving a guy a link to illegal information????  Since fucking when did information become illegal????  Yep that's how Californians and CALGUNs thinks.  I was wrong for violating their tinfoil TOS.

Next (3 years ago)they ban my second account for telling them they were wrong to say a BB didn't give you the right to drop an empty mag and load in a full one....GUESS FUCKING WHAT...CALGUNS now agrees with me....HOHAH CWDraco was RIGHT

Now if I go over there a third time and tell them they are wrong about this I know they will ban me again...and some day they too will admit I was right.

A BB doesn't = a fixed mag.
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 8:24:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2008 9:06:30 PM EDT by Homeinvader]

Originally Posted By CWDraco:

Here is the question....if it is completely LEGAL to remove an empty 10rd mag using a BB, then install a full 10rd mag and then continue firing...do you in fact have a "fixed magazine" weapon?   IMHO, "NO".  You simply have a semi-auto with a non-detachable magazine.


A BB is "Fixed" because it requires a tool to remove the magazine. A Prince50 is "Fixed" because it requires disassembly of the firearm to reload.  If the magazine is "non-detachable" then it is "Fixed". There's nowhere else to go with this.  


Originally Posted By CWDraco:

Now...follow me here......if that same BB OLL doesnt have ANY evil features AND you have a LEGAL 30rd magazine, and a BB OLL isnt a "Fixed Magazine" OLL...why can't you use it?  IMHO, "You can."  You are not violating the (2) law on semi-auto with a fixed magazine over 10rds.


This is getting stupid silly here...

A BB is a "Fixed" magazine, so your example is not only pointless since the entire purpose of using a BB is to use AW features legally, but it is also illegal since a "semi-automatic, center-fire rifle with a fixed magazine capacity of more than 10 rounds" is an AW automatically requiring no AW features whatsoever to trigger the violation.

Link Posted: 4/1/2008 10:12:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2008 10:15:16 PM EDT by Josh3239]
CWDraco, you are spreading very dangerous information. HomeInvader is 100% correct and you are 100% wrong. The fact that you call the people on CalGuns.net lawyers really puts the nail in your argument coffin. I assume you are talking about Gene (HoffManG) and/or Bill (BWeise), I don't believe those guys are lawyers.

You are playing around with terminology and spreading misinformation. You need not be hung up on the terms fixed, non-detachable, or attachable. A fixed magazine is defined by the DOJ as any magazine that cannot be readily removed without the use of a tool or dissassembly of the firearm. Any magazine that locks in place meets CA's definition of a fixed magazine including the bullet button.

You also stated that one can insert a pre ban magazine into a bullet button build. This is extremely wrong, that is banned by SB23 and doing so will constitute manufactering and possessing an AW. Those are 2 felonies.

You don't want to believe us? Fine, go tell the guys at CalGuns. I am a member there, my username is also Josh3239. I can gurantee you every single member there will tell you that a bullet button is considered a fixed magazine and inserting a high capacity magazine is a felony.

However, to sum up the most important part. The CA DOJ has created the term "fixed magazine". It is codified and defined by the CA DOJ. They have defined it, you cannot argue with their definition because that definition is law. By the CA DOJ's definition a bullet button meet their definition of a fixed magazine.
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 9:34:11 AM EDT
A bullet button/prince50 create a "fixed mag" rifle.  If it takes a tool to detach it, it is fixed.

A MMG/U-15 featureless rifle is a "detachable mag" rifle and can not have any banned features.
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 3:10:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Josh3239:
CWDraco, you are spreading very dangerous information. HomeInvader is 100% correct and you are 100% wrong. The fact that you call the people on CalGuns.net lawyers really puts the nail in your argument coffin. I assume you are talking about Gene (HoffManG) and/or Bill (BWeise), I don't believe those guys are lawyers.

You are playing around with terminology and spreading misinformation. You need not be hung up on the terms fixed, non-detachable, or attachable. A fixed magazine is defined by the DOJ as any magazine that cannot be readily removed without the use of a tool or dissassembly of the firearm. Any magazine that locks in place meets CA's definition of a fixed magazine including the bullet button.

You also stated that one can insert a pre ban magazine into a bullet button build. This is extremely wrong, that is banned by SB23 and doing so will constitute manufactering and possessing an AW. Those are 2 felonies.

You don't want to believe us? Fine, go tell the guys at CalGuns. I am a member there, my username is also Josh3239. I can gurantee you every single member there will tell you that a bullet button is considered a fixed magazine and inserting a high capacity magazine is a felony.

However, to sum up the most important part. The CA DOJ has created the term "fixed magazine". It is codified and defined by the CA DOJ. They have defined it, you cannot argue with their definition because that definition is law. By the CA DOJ's definition a bullet button meet their definition of a fixed magazine.


Fine...once again I am being told I am wrong...we will see in time what happens...Same with the dropping a 10rd magazine..I was right and now everyone just forgets that...LOL

Please show me in the CA law where they define a "fixed magazine"...I must be blind because all I find is a defininition of a "detachable magazine"...

Really i will not post again on this subject..but I will continue to see if any of you guys can find it for me...or if you are just following the crowd on what you are telling me.
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 3:24:11 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By CWDraco:
A BB doesn't make a fixed mag..it makes a mag a ATTACHABLE MAG,
There is not definition of the word attachable in the CA laws.  That attempt was tried by the DOJ back in 2007, but that attempt at underground law was cut down by Gene Hoffman, who is a lawyer.  And yes, the BB does make the magazine a fixed magazine as a tool is required for its removal.  A detachable magazine does not require a tool for its removal.  Those are the only 2 choices available.
height=8
it is only illegal to have an OLL with a DETACHABLE MAG.
Actually an OLL with a detachable magazine is legal if there are not evil features too.  This is the reaon that the MonsterMan Grip is used.
height=8
 You are allowed to have 10,000,000 10rd mags and just keep swapping them out at the range, as long as you need a tool to remove them.
Correct if the BB is used or the action is disassembled when using the Prince50 design.
height=8
a Fixed Mag is one that can not be installed or removed without a tool.
Incorrect. A fixed magazine is a magazine that requires a tool for removal.  There is no law about attachability or installation of a magazine.
height=8
To my knowledge California has NEVER defined a Fixed Mag...they only Defined a Detachable Mag.
They have and it is part of the definition of what an AW is.
height=8
So if i took a 30rd mag and welded it in my OLL, I just made an illegal AW, even if I owned the mag before 1/1/2000 and the OLL doesnt have evil features.
Correct, because the >10 round fixed magazine is attached to a semi-automatic centerfire rifle.  This is one of the defintions of what an AW is.
height=8
But by using a BB and a MMG I am not making an AW...I dont have a fixed mag, any other evil features and have owned the mag prior to 1/1/2000
Actually by using the BB, you have a fixed magazine because of the defintion of what fixed is (tool required for removal) and could have made an AW if the fixed magazine has more than 10 rounds (semi-auto centerfire rifle with fixed magazine of more than 10 rounds).
Things have changed a little since mid-2007.  The DOJ was trying to say that the Prince50 and BB were illegal because once they were used to remove the magazine, the open mag well made the OLL's have "attachable" magazines.  "Attachable" was an attempt at underground law.  Gene Hoffman killed this attempt.  Notice how the DOJ hasn't continued in their attempts at saying that the BB is illegal?
Hope this helps,
Buider
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 3:56:56 PM EDT
Draco, you're a tool and your posting dangerous misinformation that's liable to get someone arrested.

If you use a bullet button - regardless of whether you have any other evil features - with a magazine with the capacity to accept greater than ten rounds, you are illegally manufacturing assault weapons. You keep arguing semantics to protect you, and you keep missing the point. You've told others to go to Calguns and learn the facts; now it's your turn.
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 4:13:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Builder4fun:

Originally Posted By CWDraco:
A BB doesn't make a fixed mag..it makes a mag a ATTACHABLE MAG,
There is not definition of the word attachable in the CA laws.  That attempt was tried by the DOJ back in 2007, but that attempt at underground law was cut down by Gene Hoffman, who is a lawyer.  And yes, the BB does make the magazine a fixed magazine as a tool is required for its removal.  A detachable magazine does not require a tool for its removal.  Those are the only 2 choices available.

it is only illegal to have an OLL with a DETACHABLE MAG.
Actually an OLL with a detachable magazine is legal if there are not evil features too.  This is the reaon that the MonsterMan Grip is used.

 You are allowed to have 10,000,000 10rd mags and just keep swapping them out at the range, as long as you need a tool to remove them.
Correct if the BB is used or the action is disassembled when using the Prince50 design.

a Fixed Mag is one that can not be installed or removed without a tool.
Incorrect. A fixed magazine is a magazine that requires a tool for removal.  There is no law about attachability or installation of a magazine.

To my knowledge California has NEVER defined a Fixed Mag...they only Defined a Detachable Mag.
They have and it is part of the definition of what an AW is.

So if i took a 30rd mag and welded it in my OLL, I just made an illegal AW, even if I owned the mag before 1/1/2000 and the OLL doesnt have evil features.
Correct, because the >10 round fixed magazine is attached to a semi-automatic centerfire rifle.  This is one of the defintions of what an AW is.

But by using a BB and a MMG I am not making an AW...I dont have a fixed mag, any other evil features and have owned the mag prior to 1/1/2000
Actually by using the BB, you have a fixed magazine because of the defintion of what fixed is (tool required for removal) and could have made an AW if the fixed magazine has more than 10 rounds (semi-auto centerfire rifle with fixed magazine of more than 10 rounds).
Things have changed a little since mid-2007.  The DOJ was trying to say that the Prince50 and BB were illegal because once they were used to remove the magazine, the open mag well made the OLL's have "attachable" magazines.  "Attachable" was an attempt at underground law.  Gene Hoffman killed this attempt.  Notice how the DOJ hasn't continued in their attempts at saying that the BB is illegal?
Hope this helps,
Buider


Ok I am breaking my word and posting again....I lied..LOL

I just researched 10 years of CA law relating to "fixed magazine"

Guess what...it is defined. Two places.  It is also good to note that the BB OLL Ar15 is a Loop hole...why  because it doesn't fall within the law of a detachable magazine or Fixed magazine....

There are only a couple AR15s that fall into the Fixed magazine definition as the 58DAs and DOJ see it...one being the Bushmaster Top Loading AR15, which has a SEALED magazine well bottom and a fixed 10rd magazine inside.  It is loaded through the top.

This is a question and an answer given by the DOJ on a Fixed magazine found here...I left it cold...

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf
 
or
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf#xml=search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/aeab3773-1eab-4ecd-b33b-9738015f2641/9/hilite/

SEE B1.36--

A weapon (rifle) whose total supply of ammunition is
carried completely within the body of the basic weapon
should not be classified as an assault weapon.


Answer from DOJ...

The Department agrees with the comment. The revised definition provides the
needed clarity regarding the distinction between detachable ammunition feeding
devices and fixed magazines, and is consistent with the legislative intent of the
statute.


So the DOJ is stating it agrees, a weapon that carries it's total supply of ammo inside the basic weapon is a fixed magazine weapon.....

A BB equipped AR15 doesn't cut it..the magazine can be dropped out and another magazine inserted....

Now from the AW Identification guild found here...
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf

or

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf#xml=search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/aeab3773-1eab-4ecd-b33b-9738015f2641/39/hilite/

Magazine, fixed - A magazine which remains affixed to the firearm during loading. Frequently a fixed magazine is
charged (loaded) from a clip (en bloc or stripper) of cartridges inserted through the open breech into the magazine

Magazine, detachable - An ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither
dis-assembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered
a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc
clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.

Now if you want to paint yourself into a corner and say your AR15 with a BB is a fixed magazine...sorry the DOJ has already stated it doesn't see it that way...you are wrong...BUT if you state your AR15 with a BB provides a NON-detachable Magazine, thus complying with CA law...you are on safe ground...its not FIXED nor is it DETACHABLE.

whatever.....
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 4:34:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DedEye0:
Draco, you're a tool and your posting dangerous misinformation that's liable to get someone arrested.

If you use a bullet button - regardless of whether you have any other evil features - with a magazine with the capacity to accept greater than ten rounds, you are illegally manufacturing assault weapons. You keep arguing semantics to protect you, and you keep missing the point. You've told others to go to Calguns and learn the facts; now it's your turn.


A tool...am i a bullet or a wrench in your gears...LOL

Dude you can play word games all you like...DOJ and the 58DAs have the last word.  I'm sorry I dont think the BB and P50 type things cut the mustard...thats why ALL my builds are MMG, U15, and I also have a BM toploader and my older AR15s are Registered.

when you are sitting in that room and the DA is telling you you have an unregistered AW becuase they dont play word games..then your lawyer tells you its gonna cost 15K+ to fight this in court and depending on what "TOOLS" are in the jury...you may see jail time...

you gonna think twice about MY comments on fixed vs detachable vs non-detactable...then you gonna wish like hell Tools like CALGUNS wised up and stopped following the crowd and thought about the DOJs / DAs next 10 moves instead of focusing on the game board infront of them.
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 4:36:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CWDraco:

Originally Posted By DedEye0:
Draco, you're a tool and your posting dangerous misinformation that's liable to get someone arrested.

If you use a bullet button - regardless of whether you have any other evil features - with a magazine with the capacity to accept greater than ten rounds, you are illegally manufacturing assault weapons. You keep arguing semantics to protect you, and you keep missing the point. You've told others to go to Calguns and learn the facts; now it's your turn.


A tool...am i a bullet or a wrench in your gears...LOL

Dude you can play word games all you like...DOJ and the 58DAs have the last word.  I'm sorry I dont think the BB and P50 type things cut the mustard...thats why ALL my builds are MMG, U15, and I also have a BM toploader and my older AR15s are Registered.

when you are sitting in that room and the DA is telling you you have an unregistered AW becuase they dont play word games..then your lawyer tells you its gonna cost 15K+ to fight this in court and depending on what "TOOLS" are in the jury...you may see jail time...

you gonna think twice about MY comments on fixed vs detachable vs non-detactable...then you gonna wish like hell Tools like CALGUNS wised up and stopped following the crowd and thought about the DOJs / DAs next 10 moves instead of focusing on the game board infront of them.


Maybe not a tool, but if not, certainly a troll.

Take your FUD somewhere else.
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 4:36:48 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By CWDraco:
Please show me in the CA law where they define a "fixed magazine"...I must be blind because all I find is a defininition of a "detachable magazine"....
You are not blind.  The word fixed is used in the defintion of what an AW is, thus it is in the 12276.1(a)(2) law.  Next, there is the word detachable in the AW 12276.1(a)(1) definition.  Those are the only 2 choices; detachable or fixed and they are used in the 12276.1(a), 1 and 2, identification of an AW.
From ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/genchar2.php
    12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
          1. A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
               A. A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
               B. A thumbhole stock.
               C. A folding or telescoping stock.
               D. A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
               E. A flash suppressor.
               F. A forward pistol grip.
          2. A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

The defintion of detachable is in
§ 5469. Definitions.  
The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276:
(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool.

This can be accessed through: www.oal.ca.gov/
left side of page click on: "Cal. Code Regs"
then either choose one of the search functions there or:
click: List of CCR Titles
then: TITLE 11. LAW
then: DIVISION 5. FIREARMS REGULATIONSDIVISION 5. FIREARMS REGULATIONS
then: CHAPTER 39. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REGULATIONS FOR ASSAULT WEAPONS AND LARGE CAPACITY MAGAZINES
then: ARTICLE 2. DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS
and finally: s 5469. Definitions.
Thus, if a tool is used it is not a detachable magazine.  So what is a non-detachable magazine?      A fixed magazine.
Thanks,
Builder
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 4:59:39 PM EDT
CWDraco, once again I invite you to join CalGuns and ask. I am a member there and many people here are members. There is already a thread about you at CalGuns, several people have chimed in about you posting very very wrong information. Some CalGuns members are even showing up here.

You have already shown that you have had several problems with CA law, most recently not knowing what the Kasler List was. The Kasler List which is by the way basically half of the CA AWs ban!!!


Originally Posted By CWDraco:

So the DOJ is stating it agrees, a weapon that carries it's total supply of ammo inside the basic weapon is a fixed magazine weapon.....


NO! EVERY WEAPON CARRIES ITS SUPPLY OF AMMO INSIDE IT BY THE DEFINITION YOU GIVE!!!


Originally Posted By CWDraco:

Magazine, detachable - An ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither
dis-assembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered
a tool.


Read this definition again! The bullet button requires the use of a tool to remove the magazine just like any magazine lock. All tools count whether it is a hacksaw or a pen. Don't you understand? Whether your cutting out a welded in magazine with a dremel or or pushing the release with a bullet you are using a tool to release the magazine or dissassemble the action thus it does not meet the definition of detachable.

If something isn't detachable it is fixed. It is common sense. Any fixed magazine can be removed with the correct tools.


Originally Posted By CWDraco:

Now if you want to paint yourself into a corner and say your AR15 with a BB is a fixed magazine...sorry the DOJ has already stated it doesn't see it that way


You are wrong! By that logic you are saying that a BB is a detachable magazine and anyone with evil features and a BB has an illegal AW.


Originally Posted By CWDraco:

NON-detachable Magazine, thus complying with CA law...you are on safe ground...its not FIXED nor is it DETACHABLE.


You are wrong again and again and again and again and again and again!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Non detachable and attachable are NOT words codified by CA law. Please highlight where, anywhere in CA law the words "non detachabe" or "attachable" are listed. That is because you cannot. Only 2 words regarding this issue are codified by CA law and that is "detachable" and "fixed".

Your magazine is one or the other. It is either fixed per CA law or detachable per CA law. You cannot make up your own term, you can only use terms codiefied by CA law.
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 5:00:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Builder4fun:

Originally Posted By CWDraco:
Please show me in the CA law where they define a "fixed magazine"...I must be blind because all I find is a defininition of a "detachable magazine"....
You are not blind.  The word fixed is used in the defintion of what an AW is, thus it is in the 12276.1(a)(2) law.  Next, there is the word detachable in the AW 12276.1(a)(1) definition.  Those are the only 2 choices; detachable or fixed and they are used in the 12276.1(a), 1 and 2, identification of an AW.
From ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/genchar2.php
    12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
          1. A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
               A. A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
               B. A thumbhole stock.
               C. A folding or telescoping stock.
               D. A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
               E. A flash suppressor.
               F. A forward pistol grip.
          2. A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

The defintion of detachable is in
§ 5469. Definitions.  
The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276:
(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool.

This can be accessed through: www.oal.ca.gov/
left side of page click on: "Cal. Code Regs"
then either choose one of the search functions there or:
click: List of CCR Titles
then: TITLE 11. LAW
then: DIVISION 5. FIREARMS REGULATIONSDIVISION 5. FIREARMS REGULATIONS
then: CHAPTER 39. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REGULATIONS FOR ASSAULT WEAPONS AND LARGE CAPACITY MAGAZINES
then: ARTICLE 2. DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS
and finally: s 5469. Definitions.
Thus, if a tool is used it is not a detachable magazine.  So what is a non-detachable magazine?      A fixed magazine.
Thanks,
Builder


OUTSTANDING

someone has proven my point..

the only LEGAL definition is of a Detachable Magazine.
There is NO Legal definition of a fixed magazine.

the DOJ and 58 DAs state in public and letter form that a FIXED magazine is where the "total supply of ammunition is carried completely within the body of the basic weapon"  AND "A magazine which remains affixed to the firearm during loading. Frequently a fixed magazine is
charged (loaded) from a clip (en bloc or stripper) of cartridges inserted through the open breech into the magazine."

YOU can not hold up a single freaking legal ruling document to support your definition of a fixed magazine...therefore    ....???? u lose at the bargaining table.

your only hope is to stand firm on the LEGAL definition of a detachable magazine.  If you even breathe the words "fixed magazine" in the description of your BB equipped AR15...you are wrong.
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 5:04:02 PM EDT
Where are you getting this stuff?


I think everyone is wasting their time with this retard.
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 5:05:28 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By CWDraco:
I just researched 10 years of CA law relating to "fixed magazine"
Unfortunately the information that is presented is just that, "10 years old".  You quoted the AW Guilde which has not been updated since 2001.
height=8

Guess what...it is defined. Two places.  It is also good to note that the BB OLL Ar15 is a Loop hole...why  because it doesn't fall within the law of a detachable magazine or Fixed magazine....
There are only a couple AR15s that fall into the Fixed magazine definition as the 58DAs and DOJ see it...one being the Bushmaster Top Loading AR15, which has a SEALED magazine well bottom and a fixed 10rd magazine inside.  It is loaded through the top.
There is nothing in the law that requires the fixed magazine to be permanently afixed nor always to be retained within the receiver.  The DOJ tried that argument in 2007 in its regulation update and it was completely defeated by Gene Hoffman's petition to the OAL.  Please read www.hoffmang.com/firearms/oal/OAL-280-Suspension-Notice-2007-09-21-w-Attachments.pdf
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A BB equipped AR15 doesn't cut it..the magazine can be dropped out and another magazine inserted....
Now from the AW Identification guild found here...
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf
or
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf#xml=search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/aeab3773-1eab-4ecd-b33b-9738015f2641/39/hilite/

Magazine, fixed - A magazine which remains affixed to the firearm during loading. Frequently a fixed magazine is
charged (loaded) from a clip (en bloc or stripper) of cartridges inserted through the open breech into the magazine

Or a fixed magazine can be removed with a tool.
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Magazine, detachable - An ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither dis-assembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool.

Ever wonder why they included the use of a tool in the defintion of a removable magazine?  It defines the opposite of removable.  "Removed readily" without the use of a tool means that it is a detachable magazine.  So it a tool is used to readily remove it, then what is it?  A non-removable magazine, a fixed magazine.  Cool!
height=8
whatever.....

Learn something new every day,
Builder
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 5:15:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2008 5:18:32 PM EDT by Josh3239]
Ok I'll try this route. This is whats comes with a purchase of a bullet button and was written by the man who made the Prince 50 mag lock and the Bullet Button mag lock, Darin. Both ColdWarShooters.net and TenPercentFirearms.com agree with this and sell these locks, you can find them at their stores.

On January 1st, 2007, the legal types on this board made an about face regarding bullet tip mag locks. I modified a design from last year, and came out with the BULLET-BUTTON.

The BULLET-BUTTON is a product that allows the shooter to drop a magazine with the use of a tool. It prevents finger manipulation of the mag release, and creates a condition allowable under CURRENT INDIVIDUAL INTERPRETATION of California law.

This does not create a detachable mag situation, but creates an attachable-fixed magazine condition. A bullet tip can be used as the tool, as can any small object such as Allen wrench, or small screwdriver.

This button CAN NOT be used with magazines greater than 10 rounds in capacity. To do so in the state of California on an unregistered assault weapon, would be a felony.

The BULLET-BUTTON installs in less than a minute, requires no gunsmithing, or cutting on any part of the rifle. The installation is not permanent, and can be reversed just as quickly.

Materials are anodized, and raw, aircraft grade aluminum, and carbon spring steel wire. All parts needed to convert your standard, or Prince50 equipped AR-15 are included. 100 percent made in California, by Californians, for California shooters.

The BULLET-BUTTON has not yet been approved by the CALDOJ.

If by some gift of nature, you have a body part that can fit inside the BULLET-BUTTON, and manipulate the latch, then the BULLET-BUTTON is not for you.

The original Prince50 mag lock is still available from quality gunshops. Please be aware that certain shops in California are passing off homemade, low quality button conversions, as Prince50 Mag Locks.

Thanks to Calguns.

Darin


Draco, you didn't even know what the Kasler List was!?! That is 50% of the CA AW ban!?!? Is it possible that all these people from ARF and Calguns are right and you are wrong? Is it possible that you are quoting the DOJs underground legislation and legislation that old and hasn't been updated?
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 5:30:29 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By CWDraco:
the only LEGAL definition is of a Detachable Magazine.
There is NO Legal definition of a fixed magazine.
Actually since they define what a detachable magazine, they have defined what a non-detachable magazine is also.  A fixed magazine is non-detachable magazine pure and simple.  Don't make this any harder than it needs to be.  BTW, all this was gone over back in late 2006 and into the middle of 2007.  Please read the Hoffman OAL submission above as it does alot to bring you up to the present.  You are just very late to the party, in fact every one has left the party and are out enjoying their OLL equiped with a 10 round magazine, a BB, and evil features.
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the DOJ and 58 DAs state in public and letter form that a FIXED magazine is where the "total supply of ammunition is carried completely within the body of the basic weapon"  AND "A magazine which remains affixed to the firearm during loading. Frequently a fixed magazine is
charged (loaded) from a clip (en bloc or stripper) of cartridges inserted through the open breech into the magazine."
If you can actually find that definition in the law, you are popping LSD.  It just isn't in the law, now is it?  That memo has no standing in the law as you can clearly read from the defintions of what a detachable magazine is and it has been destroyed by Hoffman.
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YOU can not hold up a single freaking legal ruling document to support your definition of a fixed magazine...therefore    ....???? u lose at the bargaining table.
Actually the definition of a non-detachable magazine is that it requires a tool or disassembly of the action.  Simple as that.
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your only hope is to stand firm on the LEGAL definition of a detachable magazine.  If you even breathe the words "fixed magazine" in the description of your BB equipped AR15...you are wrong.
Here's how simple it is:
A detachable magazine does not require a tool for its removal from the firearm.
A BB requires a tool for the removal of the magazine.
Thus, a BB is NOT a detachable magazine.  Simple enough?  So if it isn't a detachable magazine what is it?  Fixed maybe....
Simple enough,
Builder
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 5:44:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Josh3239:
Ok I'll try this route. This is whats comes with a purchase of a bullet button and was written by the man who made the Prince 50 mag lock and the Bullet Button mag lock, Darin. Both ColdWarShooters.net and TenPercentFirearms.com agree with this and sell these locks, you can find them at their stores.

On January 1st, 2007, the legal types on this board made an about face regarding bullet tip mag locks. I modified a design from last year, and came out with the BULLET-BUTTON.

The BULLET-BUTTON is a product that allows the shooter to drop a magazine with the use of a tool. It prevents finger manipulation of the mag release, and creates a condition allowable under CURRENT INDIVIDUAL INTERPRETATION of California law.

This does not create a detachable mag situation, but creates an attachable-fixed magazine condition. A bullet tip can be used as the tool, as can any small object such as Allen wrench, or small screwdriver.

This button CAN NOT be used with magazines greater than 10 rounds in capacity. To do so in the state of California on an unregistered assault weapon, would be a felony.

The BULLET-BUTTON installs in less than a minute, requires no gunsmithing, or cutting on any part of the rifle. The installation is not permanent, and can be reversed just as quickly.

Materials are anodized, and raw, aircraft grade aluminum, and carbon spring steel wire. All parts needed to convert your standard, or Prince50 equipped AR-15 are included. 100 percent made in California, by Californians, for California shooters.

The BULLET-BUTTON has not yet been approved by the CALDOJ.

If by some gift of nature, you have a body part that can fit inside the BULLET-BUTTON, and manipulate the latch, then the BULLET-BUTTON is not for you.

The original Prince50 mag lock is still available from quality gunshops. Please be aware that certain shops in California are passing off homemade, low quality button conversions, as Prince50 Mag Locks.

Thanks to Calguns.

Darin


Draco, you didn't even know what the Kasler List was!?! That is 50% of the CA AW ban!?!? Is it possible that all these people from ARF and Calguns are right and you are wrong? Is it possible that you are quoting the DOJs underground legislation and legislation that old and hasn't been updated?


Draco, you didn't even know what the Kasler List was?  >>>Dude I have built 3 OLLs since I got back in the states 4 or 5 years ago?  Where do you get this information?  I returned from a 2 year contract in the Middle East and saw a BM toploader in a gun store  Came here found out the new laws...got banned from Calguns for offering a link to make a silencer...I then found out all the new laws and bought the BM and built SEVERAL OLLs...You must be confusing something I have said.

Back to my stupidity..

You can not pigeonhole yourself by stating the BB makes a fixed magazine...You are in California and MUST remain vigilant in your defense of the 2A.  They have OPENLY, and Publicly attempted to create a legal basis for making the BB illegal...whats next in their bag of tricks...define what a Fixed magazine is and isn't...

If they get to add their definition of a fixed magazine into law...the BB is gone if you continue to stand on the ground that it makes a magazine a fixed magazine.

If you are waiting for the DOJ and DA to add, "A fixed magazine is any magazine which needs a tool to be removed from the weapon"...don't hold your fucking breath.

they know why the fuck you want them to LEGALLY write that into the law.  They do not fucking want you to own a AR15  PERIOD...they are not going to fucking help you.

they will (if they can) define a fixed magazine the same way they have publicly stated they think it is.....Please read again what they say a fixed magazine is.....

If you want to use the word fixed...at least show some intelligences and and say, "attachable-fixed magazine" as the guy who made it describes it.
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 6:09:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Builder4fun:

Originally Posted By CWDraco:
the only LEGAL definition is of a Detachable Magazine.
There is NO Legal definition of a fixed magazine.
Actually since they define what a detachable magazine, they have defined what a non-detachable magazine is also.  A fixed magazine is non-detachable magazine pure and simple.  Don't make this any harder than it needs to be.  BTW, all this was gone over back in late 2006 and into the middle of 2007.  Please read the Hoffman OAL submission above as it does alot to bring you up to the present.  You are just very late to the party, in fact every one has left the party and are out enjoying their OLL equiped with a 10 round magazine, a BB, and evil features.

the DOJ and 58 DAs state in public and letter form that a FIXED magazine is where the "total supply of ammunition is carried completely within the body of the basic weapon"  AND "A magazine which remains affixed to the firearm during loading. Frequently a fixed magazine is
charged (loaded) from a clip (en bloc or stripper) of cartridges inserted through the open breech into the magazine."
If you can actually find that definition in the law, you are popping LSD.  It just isn't in the law, now is it?  That memo has no standing in the law as you can clearly read from the defintions of what a detachable magazine is and it has been destroyed by Hoffman.

YOU can not hold up a single freaking legal ruling document to support your definition of a fixed magazine...therefore    ....???? u lose at the bargaining table.
Actually the definition of a non-detachable magazine is that it requires a tool or disassembly of the action.  Simple as that.

your only hope is to stand firm on the LEGAL definition of a detachable magazine.  If you even breathe the words "fixed magazine" in the description of your BB equipped AR15...you are wrong.
Here's how simple it is:
A detachable magazine does not require a tool for its removal from the firearm.
A BB requires a tool for the removal of the magazine.
Thus, a BB is NOT a detachable magazine.  Simple enough?  So if it isn't a detachable magazine what is it?  Fixed maybe....
Simple enough,
Builder


LOL dont quite your day job...Yoda says, "a Lawyer you are not"...lol
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 6:17:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2008 6:23:03 PM EDT by Josh3239]
And the truth comes to light. You are a troll and you got banned from CalGuns for trolling. I remember you and I remember your thread. No wonder you use CalGuns as a source but ignore me when I ask you to go there. No wonder you use CalGuns as a source and ignore the CalGuns members who on their public forum say that you are wrong. No wonder you use CalGuns as a source and then refuse facts from CalGun members.

As far as the word attachable goes. It is static, there is ZERO legislation on attachable. Attachable isn't the issue. Attachable isn't regulated. Detachable is regulated.

You want me to call it an attachable-fixed mag. Then fucking fine. Every magazine in the world is attachable you dumb mofo. Attachable ISN'T THE FUCKING ISSUE! You are ignoring members of ARF and Calguns, you are ignoring the instructions from the creator and using memos from the DOJ. MEMOS ARE NOT LAWS, MEMOS WERE DESTROYED BY HOFFMANG (GENE) BECAUSE THEY WERE UNDERGROUND LEGISLATION. Attachable-fixed magazine, what the fuck ever. Who gives a fuck about attachable? No one does. The important part is that it is fixed. No one is arguing attachable, I am not. Get it through your head FIXED FIXED FIXED. It doesn't matter if you call it an "attachable-but-can-be-removed-with-a-tool-fixed magazine". All of that is static it is F I X E D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Originally Posted By CWDraco:

If you are waiting for the DOJ and DA to add, "A fixed magazine is any magazine which needs a tool to be removed from the weapon"...don't hold your fucking breath


The DOJ has ruled on it dumb dumb. That is the point. That is the point that you are missing. The point is that the bullet button meets the CA DOJs definition of a fixed magazine. The DOJs definition of a fixed magazine is any feeding device attached to the rifle that cannot be removed with the use of a tool or dissassembly of the actions. That is exactly what the bullet button is, it uses a locking device that cannot be removed without the use of a tool. Because the magazine cannot be removed without the use of a tool, which is what the bullet button does it is a magazine lock.

The manufacterer of the both locks agrees with me, ARF.com agrees with me, CalGuns agrees with me, Ten Percent Firearms agrees with me and Cold War Shooters agrees with me. Even the DOJ agrees with me. Who agrees with you? Nobody, because you are wrong.

Not only does the DOJ agree with me but the courts do as well. People have been tried for possession of an AW but got off because the courts agreed that the magazine locks attached to their rifles were in fact magazine locks that allowed them to have evil features.

Link Posted: 4/2/2008 6:34:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2008 6:43:12 PM EDT by CWDraco]

Originally Posted By Josh3239:
And the truth comes to light. You are a troll and you got banned from CalGuns for trolling. I remember you and I remember your thread. No wonder you use CalGuns as a source but ignore me when I ask you to go there. No wonder you use CalGuns as a source and ignore the CalGuns members who on their public forum say that you are wrong. No wonder you use CalGuns as a source and then refuse facts from CalGun members.

As far as the word attachable goes. It is static, there is ZERO legislation on attachable. Attachable isn't the issue. Attachable isn't regulated. Detachable is regulated.

You want me to call it an attachable-fixed mag. Then fucking fine. Every magazine in the world is attachable you dumb mofo. Attachable ISN'T THE FUCKING ISSUE! You are ignoring members of ARF and Calguns, you are ignoring the instructions from the creator and using memos from the DOJ. MEMOS ARE NOT LAWS, MEMOS WERE DESTROYED BY HOFFMANG (GENE) BECAUSE THEY WERE UNDERGROUND LEGISLATION. Attachable-fixed magazine, what the fuck ever. Who gives a fuck about attachable? No one does. The important part is that it is fixed. No one is arguing attachable, I am not. Get it through your head FIXED FIXED FIXED. It doesn't matter if you call it an "attachable-but-can-be-removed-with-a-tool-fixed magazine". All of that is static it is F I X E D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Originally Posted By CWDraco:

If you are waiting for the DOJ and DA to add, "A fixed magazine is any magazine which needs a tool to be removed from the weapon"...don't hold your fucking breath


The DOJ has ruled on it dumb dumb. That is the point. That is the point that you are missing. The point is that the bullet button meets the CA DOJs definition of a fixed magazine. The DOJs definition of a fixed magazine is any feeding device attached to the rifle that cannot be removed with the use of a tool or dissassembly of the actions. That is exactly what the bullet button is, it uses a locking device that cannot be removed without the use of a tool. Because the magazine cannot be removed without the use of a tool, which is what the bullet button does it is a magazine lock.

The manufacterer of the both locks agrees with me, ARF.com agrees with me, CalGuns agrees with me, Ten Percent Firearms agrees with me and Cold War Shooters agrees with me. Even the DOJ agrees with me. Who agrees with you? Nobody, because you are wrong.

Not only does the DOJ agree with me but the courts do as well. People have been tried for possession of an AW but got off because the courts agreed that the magazine locks attached to their rifles were in fact magazine locks that allowed them to have evil features.



So you are the same guy that called me a dumb FUD who is going to get guys tossed in jail when I told you "BWISE you are wrong when you say a BB equiped OLL has to be disassembled before you take the mag out."  your reply was simple...I was wrong.

Who is fucking wrong now BWise....I see your dumb-ass memo to CALGUNS about taking an AR15 apart prior to detacting the magazine is still there....

You were wrong then...you are wrong now.

Just like 4 2 freaking years ago...you still will not admit it.

But at the range I see everyone with a BB drop that empty 10rd mag and slap in a new loaded one...sure am fucking glad you are the Bwise master....and everyone does what you say.

a link to Bwise memo to CALGUNS stating you have to take apart a AR15 with a BB

Enjoy all read #9 at the end...yep Mr. Bwise knows all and trust him to give you sound advice...LOL

calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm


Link Posted: 4/2/2008 6:47:03 PM EDT
The funny part is that despite all of CWDracos rantings that we're wrong, he's the one clearly committing the felony by putting a 30 round magazine in his MMG and BB equipped rifle.

Ok CWDraco, how about this... heres a news clip showing Iggy Chin himself demonstrating the bullet button and the commentator stating that it makes the 10 round magazine "fixed" and legal.

http://cbs5.com/local/California.gun.loopholes.2.680263.html
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 7:05:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2008 7:07:09 PM EDT by CWDraco]

Originally Posted By redcliff:
The funny part is that despite all of CWDracos rantings that we're wrong, he's the one clearly committing the felony by putting a 30 round magazine in his MMG and BB equipped rifle.

Ok CWDraco, how about this... heres a news clip showing Iggy Chin himself demonstrating the bullet button and the commentator stating that it makes the 10 round magazine "fixed" and legal.

http://cbs5.com/local/California.gun.loopholes.2.680263.html


Wrong...I have told people 100000 times do not use a BB..

1)it turns a AR15 into a FUD's only gun.  anyone who would sacrifice the right to release the magazine with a finger and slap in a new one just to have a Pistol grip and Forward grip is a wanna-be airsofter looking to look cool at the range.

2)The U15 and MMG are very comfortable to use, you do not sacrifice accuracy or pure function of the AR15.

3)I do not own a BB or P50.

4) the only nutless gun I own is a BM toploader

The only reason I started this mess is to get people to READ and THINK for themselves.  Everyone is always relying on what other people tell them and don't think for themselves.

Fact
1) CA DOJ HATES AR15s
2)CA DOJ wants to find a way to turn all AR15s into AWs
3)Ca residents who own AR15s need to pay attention to what the "ca Gov" is doing and use what the CA Gov does as an indication of what they intend to do.

if calguns says a waterbottle is a fixed mag...the sheple will believe it...hey I got a vid of a guy saying it is...so thats the law.......smart
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 7:14:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2008 7:18:59 PM EDT by Builder4fun]
height=8
Originally Posted By CWDraco:
LOL dont quite your day job...Yoda says, "a Lawyer you are not"...lol
Just so everyone but CWDraco knows what the CA law is concerning the DOJ's attempt to define the BB as illegal was taken care of in the Hoffman letter to the OAL that is linked to above.  Gene writes:
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This is quote from Gene Hoffman letter to the OAL:
5. Legal Basis for why the “Important Notice” is an underground regulation
A) Background
In 1999, the California Legislature passed SB-236 which added a generic definition to the Assault Weapons Control Act in §12276.1 of the Penal Code. This definition hinged on whether or not a semi-automatic centerfire rifle had a “detachable magazine” and any of a list of prohibited features (such as a pistol grip, collapsible stock or “flash hider”).
However, such prohibited features are perfectly legal under SB-23 as long as the rifle has a fixed magazine (i.e., does not have a “detachable magazine”).
To further define and implement the newly enacted provisions of SB-23, the BOF (then known as The Department of Firearms) conducted a regulatory process in compliance with the APA that resulted in the enactment of 11 C.C.R. 5469 (the “2000 Rulemaking”.)
Part of this rulemaking process addressed the exact definition of fixed magazine vs. “detachable magazine’, as will be shown infra.
From 2000 to 2006, little changed regarding the enforcement of Penal Code §12276.1 and 11 C.C.R. 5469. Then, in early 2006 certain firearms enthusiasts and firearms sellers realized the implications of the combined impact of Harrot v. County of Kings (2001) 25 Cal.4th 1138 and the expiration of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, on California law.
Sellers and enthusiasts realized that they could legally import, buy, sell, and assemble rifles that were very similar (but not identical) to rifles that were considered “Assault
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4 “A semiautomatic centerfire rifle with the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any of the generic features listed in Penal Code §12276.1(a)(1) is contraband unless it was registered prior to January 1, 2001.” “Important Notice”, para 2 (emphasis added).
5 AB-2728 which passed in 2006 and became effective January 1, 2007 removed the only unrelated exception to the APA that the BOF had in the Penal Code relating to firearms.
6 Bill text and legislative history available at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgibin/
postquery?bill_bill_number=sb_23&sess=9900&house=B&author=perata

Weapons” in California as long as they complied with Penal Code §12276 (so called “named assault weapons”) and the feature restrictions in §12276.1 as interpreted by 11 C.C.R. 5469.
As outlined above, the feature restrictions contained in §12276.1 prohibit, e.g. pistol grips, collapsible stocks and/or flash hiders only on rifles that have a “detachable magazine,” thus making the definition of what exactly constitutes a fixed magazine to be of paramount importance.
In an attempt to make an end-run around the plain meaning of the law that defines fixed magazines, the BOF responded to this influx of new rifles with the “Important Notice.”
In effect, the “Important Notice” is an underground regulation purporting to interpret Penal Code §12276.1 and 11 C.C.R. 5469 in a way that the legislature did not intend or require, and that the BOF knows or should have known is outside of the BOF’s own previous interpretations of Penal Code §12276.1.
In fact, the “Important Notice” substantially changes the definition of fixed magazine, thereby turning tens of thousands of firearms owners who relied on the previous definition of a fixed magazine, into felons.7
B) The Current Definition of Fixed Magazine Does Not Require “Permanent Alteration”
In the 2000 Rulemaking, BOF promulgated the definition of “detachable magazine” as:
(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool.8
Issues with a type of rifle known as the “SKS” led to the definition of what would be considered a fixed magazine (and therefore not a “detachable magazine”) rifle subject to §12276.1. The BOF stated in the Final Statement of Reasons for the 2000 Rulemaking (emphasis added):
Comment
A1.12 - The SKS rifle with a detachable magazine cannot be changed without
using a bullet tip as a tool, thus the regulations conflict with the specific listing of
SKS rifles with detachable magazines in the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons
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7 Penal Code §12280. (a) (1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends any assault weapon or any .50 BMG rifle, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for four, six,
or eight years.
8 Title 11 California Code of Regulations 5469 (a) Control Act. DOJ has no authority to contradict existing law.

Response
The Department disagrees with the comment because any magazine that requires the use of a bullet or any other tool for its removal is a fixed magazine, not a detachable magazine. The SKS with a true detachable magazine does not require a bullet or any other tool to remove and is a controlled assault weapon under Penal Code section 12276. Identifying a bullet as a tool allows for the proper categorization of an SKS with a fixed magazine. Therefore, the SKS referred to in the comment has a fixed, not detachable magazine.9

There is no requirement in either Penal Code §12276.1 or 11 C.C.R. 5469 that a rifle with a fixed magazine be permanently altered in any way. Quite the opposite is true, in fact.  As outlined above, the BOF has clearly stated that rifles that required merely the use of a “bullet tip” to remove the magazine were nonetheless classified as having a fixed magazine.
Furthermore, if the intent of the legislature was to require that rifles be “permanently altered,” the statutory language would have said so. However, the statutory plain language of SB-23 makes no mention of “permanently altered” in §12276.1 (a)10. In the Final Statement of Reasons for the 2000 Rulemaking the BOF itself reiterated that that modifications to semiautomatic rifles did not need to be “permanent:”
Comment
C5.04 - The firearm should have to be permanently modified so that it lacks the capacity to accept a detachable magazine or any of the offensive features in order for the Department to accept cancellation of a registration.
Response
The Department disagrees with the comment. Registration cancellation is not exclusive to modification of the firearm, nor does the Department believe permanent modification is required.11
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9 Final Statement of Reasons for the 2000 Rulemaking, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf, Attachment A pg. 2.
10 Compare that with the definitions applicable to “large-capacity magazines” passed concurrently in SB-23; §12276.1. (d) (2) "Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" shall mean capable of accommodating more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
11 Ibid. Attachment A pg. 36

Paragraphs 3 and 4 of the “Important Notice” now purport to interpret both Penal Code §12276.1 (a) (1) and 11 C.C.R. 5469 by adding a new test of whether a modification to a rifle is temporary or permanent to the test of whether a rifle has a detachable magazine (and is therefore regulated by Penal Code §12276.1).
Paragraphs 3 and 4 of the “Important Notice” state:
Law enforcement officials, firearm dealers and the public should be aware that semiautomatic centerfire rifles that are modified to be temporarily incapable of accepting detachable magazines, but can be restored to accommodate detachable magazines, are assault weapons if they have any of the features listed in §12276.1(a)(1). The Department intends to exercise its power pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.5(i) to adopt regulations as “necessary or proper to carry out the purposes and intent” of California law to ban assault weapons in the state.
Individuals who own firearms that meet the generic definition of assault weapons banned by SB 23 must do one of the following in order to comply with existing law: remove the features, sell the firearm (without the features), or permanently alter the firearm so that it cannot accept a detachable magazine.
This is the exact opposite of what the BOF has earlier stated in the Final Statement of Reasons for the 2000 Rulemaking, and is in direct conflict with the law as written. It is black letter law that an administrative agency may not alter, extend, limit, or enlarge a statute that it administers (First Industrial Loan Co. v. Daugherty (1945) 26 Cal.2d 545, 550.) The BOF’s attempt to add a new test of whether a rifle is “temporarily incapable” of accepting a detachable magazine (vs. “permanently altered”) is thus an impermissible attempt to enlarge the number and types of rifles controlled by Penal Code §12276.1 and §12280(a)(1)&(2) while directly contradicting existing law and previous BOF opinions.
Therefore, the “Important Notice” should be removed from BOF’s website and no further attempt to issue or enforce a new definition of rifles controlled by Penal Code §12276.1 should be attempted without opening a new APA compliant proposed regulation process.
Thus, the DOJ does know what a fixed magazine is and has stated so.
"The Department disagrees with the comment because any magazine that requires the use of a bullet or any other tool for its removal is a fixed magazine, not a detachable magazine."

Game, Set, Match.
Builder
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 7:14:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2008 7:17:10 PM EDT by equianous]

Originally Posted By CWDraco:


FTR I do not use CalGuns, nor do I have an active account there.



CWDraco's Calguns.net account

So, is this your 2nd or 3rd account on Calguns.net?
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 7:15:01 PM EDT
I think I'll stick with DoJ's chief AW enforcer grudgingly admitting a BB with 10 round magazine is legal than take your word, CWDraco, that using a MMG along with a BB allows me to use 30 round magazines.

"Yes I have a MMG without a BB, I was using the situation of both since you or others seem to believe using a BB means 10rds only...IT DOES NOT..ONCE YOU INSTALL a MMG, installing a BB doesnt STOP you from using your LEGAL 30rd mags."

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