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Posted: 6/22/2017 3:35:56 PM EST
The only thing I can find online is from this OCDO thread a couple years ago, the linked page with the "no weapons" policy is now 404, and I get the impression that a few posts may have been removed. A search of ar15.com only turns up results about area tourism suggestions with no mention of weapon policies.

There was some talk of it being a possibility that Louisville Metro is the owner/operator of the vessel/cruise and that, if so, they would be unable to not give permission should the USCG seek to find out if someone carrying aboard the Belle has such permission.

I can't find a peep about prohibited items on the website now except about food and drink, but I don't want fool around with running afoul of the USCG or any other LE organization should we decide to go on a cruise. I know that some of the USCG-registered ferries up on the great lakes have pretty stringent regulations about how firearms can be transported aboard them, but I can't figure out what the deal is with the Belle, Spirit of Jefferson, or whatever the new one is.

Anyone know?
Link Posted: 6/22/2017 7:00:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By masfonos:
The only thing I can find online is from this OCDO thread a couple years ago, the linked page with the "no weapons" policy is now 404, and I get the impression that a few posts may have been removed. A search of ar15.com only turns up results about area tourism suggestions with no mention of weapon policies.

There was some talk of it being a possibility that Louisville Metro is the owner/operator of the vessel/cruise and that, if so, they would be unable to not give permission should the USCG seek to find out if someone carrying aboard the Belle has such permission.

I can't find a peep about prohibited items on the website now except about food and drink, but I don't want fool around with running afoul of the USCG or any other LE organization should we decide to go on a cruise. I know that some of the USCG-registered ferries up on the great lakes have pretty stringent regulations about how firearms can be transported aboard them, but I can't figure out what the deal is with the Belle, Spirit of Jefferson, or whatever the new one is.

Anyone know?
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I haven't heard any news from anyone lately on the subject of the Belle of Louisville, but I don't suspect that anything has changed. The last I heard about this, anyone found to be carrying a gun will be denied boarding on the Belle. I have never heard of any metal detectors or wands, but that could have changed. The law is still the same and Metro is as anti-gun as they ever were. I was part of that discussion you referenced from OCDO. The part of your post that I highlighted is a fantasy invented by some other guy on OCDO. There is nothing in our firearms preemption law that would force Louisville Metro to give any permission to anybody on any subject. As long as Louisville Metro is only enforcing a federal law, they can ban guns all day, everywhere.

Our firearms preemption statute is KRS 65.870. In part, it says that Louisville Metro can not "occupy any part of the field of regulation of the manufacture, sale, purchase, taxation, transfer, ownership, possession, carrying, storage, or transportation of firearms, ammunition, components of firearms, components of ammunition, firearms accessories, or combination thereof." It doesn't say that Louisville Metro can't enforce a federal gun law. Enforcing a federal law is not any of those things listed in the statute and the state statute says nothing about giving permission to do anything. Louisville Metro is no more obligated to give permission to carry a gun on the Belle than a school board is obligated to give permission to carry a gun on school property. Both are allowed by law, but neither is required by law. Louisville Metro will ban guns any place that the law allows them to and will try to ban them places where the law says that they can't. They will assert and attempt to surpass any authority that they are given. They will offer no permissions to exempt anybody from any gun ban that they can legally enforce.
Link Posted: 6/22/2017 8:26:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/22/2017 8:45:02 PM EST by masfonos]
Nobody is asking Metro to enforce or not enforce any federal law. Admittedly, I don't know enough about it to know what the applicable federal law is other than the one posted in that thread:


18 U.S. Code § 2277 - Explosives or dangerous weapons aboard vessels

(a) Whoever brings, carries, or possesses any dangerous weapon, instrument, or device, or any dynamite, nitroglycerin, or other explosive article or compound on board of any vessel documented under the laws of the United States, or any vessel purchased, requisitioned, chartered, or taken over by the United States pursuant to the provisions of Act June 6, 1941, ch. 174, 55 Stat. 242, as amended, without previously obtaining the permission of the owner or the master of such vessel [...] shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
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Presumably, whoever owns the vessels could grant permission to carry aboard the vessel and no particular law (that I know of) would be in question of being enforced or not enforced. If Metro owns them (I don't know if that's the case or not), they likely wouldn't grant said permission if asked.

Likewise, I don't know the terminology well enough to know what "the master of such vessel" means - whether that means the Captain behind the wheel, the owner, the person in charge of where it's tied up, something else, or some combination of the above. If it's the Captain, is it as simple as asking him for permission before boarding (though he may or may not be under direction from Metro)? Does anyone know who to contact in order to inquire about such permission? If the "master" has given permission and Metro (presuming that they are the owner) has not expressly forbade it (I see no mention of any policy whatsoever on the site), is that good enough even if asking the owner may result in a "no?"

Again, nobody is suggesting that Metro (or anyone else, for that matter) enforce or not enforce any law. I am asking on how to comply with the law.


ETA
Originally Posted By softpoint:

[b]
I haven't heard any news from anyone lately on the subject of the Belle of Louisville, but I don't suspect that anything has changed. The last I heard about this, anyone found to be carrying a gun will be denied boarding on the Belle.
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Something has changed... the website used to explicitly forbid bringing weapons onboard, now it does not. It is most likely an oversight, but who knows. If the policy has changed and permission would be granted, thus allowing one to CCDW on board, some CCDW-ers may patronize the cruises who might not otherwise.
Link Posted: 6/22/2017 8:49:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/22/2017 9:19:54 PM EST by softpoint]
American merchant ships do not have a "Captain". The person in command of an American merchant ship is the ship's "Master". He is the supreme commander of the vessel. The owners of a ship can not order the Master to do anything. They can fire him and replace him, but they can't tell him what to do while he is the Master. The ship is totally under his control.

I think my post addressed your question. Here is what I wrote, "The last I heard about this, anyone found to be carrying a gun will be denied boarding on the Belle." You will not be allowed to carry a firearm on the Belle, if discovered. In order to comply with their rules, which are in line with the federal law, do not attempt to bring a firearm aboard the Belle. I can't say it any more clearly, but I have had no news on this subject in two years and have no indication that anything has changed. The website is not law and a rule or regulation does not have to be put on a website to be valid. The Belle is owned by the Louisville Metro government. They are not going to allow anyone to carry a gun on that vessel. They like gun bans and would ban them in all of Jefferson Co., if they could. The Master of the Belle is an employee of Louisville Metro government and is not going to give permission, because he probably doesn't want them onboard either and if he did give permission he would immediately be fired.

I did a lot of work on this issues a few years ago, but finally abandoned the effort because I determined there was nothing that could be done about it. Louisville Metro was acting within the law and the federal law said that guns could not be brought aboard the Belle without permission and that permission was not going to be forthcoming from either the city or the Master.
Link Posted: 6/22/2017 9:23:08 PM EST
Thank you both for discussing this. However, this information means that I will never set foot on those cruises.


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Link Posted: 6/22/2017 9:47:48 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RacyCarr:
Thank you both for discussing this. However, this information means that I will never set foot on those cruises.


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Have you been going a lot, lately? If so, you should be able to give us the latest news on carry aboard the Belle. If you have not been going much lately, the gun ban and your decision not to participate won't matter much to you and it won't matter to them, either. I have not been aboard that vessel in decades.
Link Posted: 6/22/2017 10:15:58 PM EST
Thanks for the info about Captain vs Master and for confirming that Louisville Metro Government is the owner and the relationship between them and the master.

I agree that you probably can not say the particular words that you are saying any more clearly than you are saying them already. I understand that you have looked at this in the past and probably have a better grasp on the situation than many.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By softpoint:
In order to comply with their rules, which are in line with the federal law, do not attempt to bring a firearm aboard the Belle.
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Duly noted. As I mentioned, the only information I have available to me this evening is the section of USC that I posted above and the official Belle of Louisville website, which is apparently not where one finds "their rules, which are in line with the federal law". I am deeply, deeply sorry that I seem to have offended you by not having knowledge of their rules aside from what is posted on their official website, or what information you discovered two years ago when you looked into it.

Since I now know that the local government is running the show, I suppose it is a safe bet that their rules - whatever they might be and wherever they might be posted - include a firearm prohibition.
Link Posted: 6/23/2017 12:05:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/23/2017 12:13:45 AM EST by softpoint]
You have not offended me and I hope that I have not you. It just seems that we are not communicating very well. I thought that I had answered your questions and you thought that I hadn't. I tried to give you the information that I had, but since that information is two years old there is always the possibility that it is no longer accurate. I don't think that is the case, but it could be. I think that my attempts to allow for that possibility made my explanations less understandable and less concise. Too much CYA, maybe. The last thing I want to do is give information that is not accurate and since I haven't had anything to do with this in two years, that is a possibility and I tried to make that clear, but in fact only clouded the issue. The rules that were in place two years ago were as I said, "... anyone found to be carrying a gun will be denied boarding on the Belle. I have never heard of any metal detectors or wands, but that could have changed". Those were the rules then and I have no reason to believe that they are not the rules today.
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