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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 8/9/2004 10:21:12 AM EST
Anybody catch Keyes on the news yesterday? Keyes sounded like a lunatic on the news the other day. I've listened to him filling in for Rush and I do like him but what a nut!

Link Posted: 8/9/2004 12:14:08 PM EST
disgusting
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 2:49:28 PM EST

I think he sounds pretty intelligent. He's pro 2a, and the left hates him. The only 2 reasons I need to vote for someone.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 4:17:12 PM EST
While I do like Alan Keyes, I just don't understand why the Illinois central committee selected him. Other than the fact that he is a black man, and republican. He also brings with him a previous campaign debt, the nerve to complain about hitler-y Clinton running for office when she had only lived there for 10 months(not sure, maybe less). I guarentee his comments about clinton will come back to bite him in the ass. I would have prefered Jim Oberweis, he's local, is a lifelong illinois resident, and is a local business man. Plus I love his Eggnog. I believe that Alan Keyes is just being used to make Obama stay here in illinois instead of campaigning for other people around the country. it's a shame we can't have a legitimate political race for such a important position.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 4:53:39 PM EST
I thought during the 2000 presidential debates Alan Keyes was the best by far. The first thing he should do is challenge Osama Obama to a debate. He will absolutely blow him away, especially on affirmitive action(he is against it) and the second amendment. The only problem I see is that he will not swing the black vote, and some die -hard labor guys who refuse to study the candidates will say, what the hell? Two black guys running for senate, I might as well vote for the one my union tells me to. We have to educate everyone QUICKLY!!!!!!! Keyes is pro-gun, pro-God, pro-constitution, and doesn't bow down to anyone. He SHOULD swing the Christian vote, and of course all of us right-wingers. It is sad that the Illinois Republican party can't find a decent canidate, but Keyes is one of the most free thinking right wing politicians in the country. We should be thankful to have him! Shot out.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 11:50:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By downstatetrapper:
I thought during the 2000 presidential debates Alan Keyes was the best by far. The first thing he should do is challenge Osama Obama to a debate. He will absolutely blow him away, especially on affirmitive action(he is against it) and the second amendment. The only problem I see is that he will not swing the black vote, and some die -hard labor guys who refuse to study the candidates will say, what the hell? Two black guys running for senate, I might as well vote for the one my union tells me to. We have to educate everyone QUICKLY!!!!!!! Keyes is pro-gun, pro-God, pro-constitution, and doesn't bow down to anyone. He SHOULD swing the Christian vote, and of course all of us right-wingers. It is sad that the Illinois Republican party can't find a decent canidate, but Keyes is one of the most free thinking right wing politicians in the country. We should be thankful to have him! Shot out.



You know, I think we are all clear that the Illinois Republicans picked Keyes because he is Black to try and win the votes from the ghettos of Chicago. That won't work. These people are complete morons in this state. I know a lot of guys are union guys, but I have to be honest with all due respect, I hate unions. I am a Carpenter, I own my own business and my guys are way, way better off than any Union Carpenter, plus they know how to use a level. People just need to realize that the reason we are losing so many jobs is because of the insane salaries that must be paid to union workers and for that matter, unskilled factory labor. I really do not wish to offend, just my humble opion. I despise unions, I view them as Communist and I don't feel that an assembly line worker at GM should make $60k per year. Why do you think unions almost always support Democrats?
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 12:29:51 PM EST
It is a longshot of a race so I guess they might as well go for the guy who is as different from Obama in views as possible. The fact he is black will make for an interesting campaign as suddenly the Republicans have removed the race card from the equation, although they have added the "out of towner" card to the Democrats hand.

Man, I don't even know what to do about voting anymore, this is just f*cked up.

Dawg
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 2:33:16 PM EST
[

this is just f*cked up.

Dawg


Man, I know how you feel. We the people have really lost control of our government.
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 7:10:34 AM EST
I'm almost tempted to throw away my vote and vote Libertarian. I don't think Keyes has a chance in this state.

Can't get any more progun than those wacky Libertarians.
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 4:34:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By drobs:
I'm almost tempted to throw away my vote and vote Libertarian. I don't think Keyes has a chance in this state.

Can't get any more progun than those wacky Libertarians.



I'm with ya bro.
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 5:17:46 PM EST
Who is the Libertarian candidate- any link to his (her??) webpage?

Shit, might as well throw it that way at this point. That or we cann all just write in Patiort73, although it would probably help if I knew his real name!
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 3:06:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/13/2004 3:07:06 AM EST by Muddy]
Ya' know, I've got to put my .02 cents in here. Keyes is the first half-way decent cadidate the IL Republican part has run in ages for Senate. While I don't agree with him on everything, I will most definitely be tossing my absentee ballot in with a check for him. Not only is the guy exposing himself to undue personaly attacks by agreeing to be our candidate but the IL RINO's need to see that somebody other than a slime ball or someone with the name Ryan (or both) can get f[]ckin' votes in this state.

Idealogically, I'm with the Libertarian Party 100% and if the choice came down to Obama and Daley or something equally dismal, yes I'd vote LP. That's not even close to the case here and there's a lot riding on this election. Too much to let somebody like Kerry, Durbin, and their ilk slip into power. Like it or not, this country was set up with a 2-party system and it has remained that way for 200+ years. Being finite beings (as in we live, shit happens, we die) it's important not to waste the precious time we have. I don't want to spend another 4 or 8 years under El Presidente Kerry or any of his minions fighting for one of the most basic rights: the right to defend myself and to have the most effective tools available

This notion of punishing the Repubs doesn't fly. I don't like a lot of things that Bush has done and I'll fight tooth and nail to try to undo or prevent the things that are wrong. Having said that, the reality is that our system of government is askew and that's putting it mildly. The Executive Branch has more power today for a lot of reasons, too long to enumerate here, but sufficed to say, do you really want another Bill Clinton playing "stroke of the pen, law of the land" with executive orders? Think of the watermark that's been set under Clinton and what was done coupled with what could be done, epsecially with the "war on terror" excuse.

Link Posted: 8/13/2004 7:20:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/13/2004 2:46:31 PM EST by Dawg180]
Well spoken Muddy

Unfortunately I still don't know if I can vote for Keyes for two reasons:

1. He isn't from Illinois. Spin it any way you like it, but this is carpet bagging.

2. Gun owners, at least from what I have seen, have a tendency to be a bit myopic when it comes to politics. While many of the Democrats view the ammendments as 1, 3, 4, 5, 6,7, 8, 9, 10 it seems that gun owning voters like us see it as 2., ., ., ., .,. ,. ,. ,. , ., . and lately that has started to bother me. Yes, the second ammendment is important. But if you have your choice between Hilter who was pro 2nd ammendment and John Kerry in the presidential election, a candidate who was pro 2nd ammendment but disagreed with you on most other issues or a candidate who agreed with you on everything but the 2nd ammendment, who would you vote for? I am not syaing it is that extreme by any means, but I bet you half the guys on AR15.com would vote for Hitler because they coudl keep their guns.

My point being I am not sure how I feel about voting for a guy who I don't agree with on a lot of issues even if he is pro second ammendment. Or to put it more simply, comprimise sucks!

[edited after discussion below with Muddy!]
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 8:24:21 AM EST
The fact that he's not from Illinois is a pretty weak reason to not vote for him. Hell, why don't we save some time and move the whole Daley machine to Springfield RFN? Sure, the guy is a little wacky, but I kinda like that, and he speaks the truth. He's got an energy that we need if there's any hope in hell of winning this thing.
I've always been a big fan of Keyes; he's a true conservative, which is inherently somewhat libertarian, unlike all the neo-cons we normally get stuck with. I'd put him in the same genre as a Ron Paul.

Vote Keyes!
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 8:28:10 AM EST
jsmith48 and patriot73 are the only inteligent life on this thread. Give you half a chance and you throw your vote away? Yeah, oberwise was never for your gun rights, vote for him huh? Then you bitch about it on a gun site? Don't know if your all just young or stupid. Throw your vote away and help obama get in then come back here and bitch when you lose more. Idiots. Hats off to you Patriot73 and the best of luck in your bus. Now flame away idiots.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 9:35:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/13/2004 9:36:39 AM EST by Muddy]
Dawg,

I appreciate your comments but I don't see how the "capetbagging" issue is genuinely relative. Keyes (or somebody) who the voters of IL believe to represent their beliefs will be elected to the U.S. Senate. We all have come from some other place at one time or another. The fact that Mr. Keyes believes himself to best represent the views of the IL electorate is smart and opportunistic in a good sort of way. I don't see how the geography of a man's present home impacts his views and beliefs as a potential candidate. The system has rules and he's certainly playing within them.

As to the second aspect of your comments regarding the Nazi's and gun control, you are way off base. Both the Weimar Republic (pre-Nazi German Government) and the Nazi German Government passed several laws restricting the right of German citizens to own firearms, each one progressively more restrictive, culminating with their Gun Control Act of 1938 ( which you can read more about here: http://radicalacademy.com/genarrettessay9.htm ). Also, these likely were the basis for our own Gun Control Act of 1968, which was spearheaded by Democrats, as was the National Firearms Act of 1934, and the Semi-Auto Ban in 1994. While the Republican party certainly is not without blame and needs its feet held to the fire on this issue, the hyperbole of placing them in juxtaposition to Nazi Germany is intellectually dishonest.

While I will not argue that our current government, as is the case with most big governments, exhibits certain fascistic elements and we must certainly be on guard against this. However, we must remain realistic in our evaluation of the situation at large and pursue our best routes of opportunity to effect the changes we desire. We are a long way off from having concentration camps but gun owners as a group will not help themselves by isolating themselves into a corner or through figuratively exhiling themselves to a desert island and that is precisely what happens when you become uninvolved in the political process or pursue options within it that will likely never occur.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 2:11:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Forward_Assist:
jsmith48 and patriot73 are the only inteligent life on this thread. Give you half a chance and you throw your vote away? Yeah, oberwise was never for your gun rights, vote for him huh? Then you bitch about it on a gun site? Don't know if your all just young or stupid. Throw your vote away and help obama get in then come back here and bitch when you lose more. Idiots. Hats off to you Patriot73 and the best of luck in your bus. Now flame away idiots.



Thank you. No flame throwing here. At one time in this country a man was expected to fend soley upon himself for everything in his life. This is the life I seek.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 2:44:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/13/2004 2:51:17 PM EST by Dawg180]
Muddy,

Although there is nothing inherently wrong with "carpetbagging" for some reason it makes me uneasy. If Keyes wins and turns out to be everything we want, then I'll eat a big old slice of humble pie while holding my evil-featured hi cap feeding AR15 with no regrets.

I knew someone would take my "Hitler" comment literally. Yes, I am well aware that in 1938 Germany passed gun control of which the 1968 GCA is essentially a copy. My point was not a direct comparison to Hitler, it was instead that I think a lot of people focus on gun control as the ONLY issue they care about and ignore whatever else a candidate has to say. To do that is absurd IMHO. If that is the one thing that is important to you, then by all means vote for Keyes. Heck, from what I am gathering most of the guys here really like hist stance on issues- could someone post a link to his website or post his views on the typical hot issues?

In retrospectthe whole 'Hitler' comparison was a poor example and I regret using it. I have edited my post above to reflect what I meant. By no means am I suggesting that Keyes or any other candidate is Hitler, a Fascist, or has a funny little mustache.

Forward Assist, I have not cast my vote and probably will not make my decision for quite a while. I am truly disappointed in the Republican Party as they had a strong candidate in Rauschenberger if they had only spent the money to back him properly. I would have to agree with you that voting for anyone other than Keyes is probably a vote for Obama. You will note I said "comprimise sucks" in reference to this very fact. Keyes may not be who I want but not voting for him means I will get someone I want even LESS.

As to being young or stupid, I guess that depends on your definition. Is it being young or stupid to want my REPRESENTATIVE, the person who votes in my place (after all, that is techincally what a politician does- represtent their consituents) to REPRESENT my veiws?

Dawg


Link Posted: 8/13/2004 5:32:42 PM EST
Hitler never goesover well as an analogy
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 5:58:29 PM EST
Dawg,

I'm glad to hear that you do have a good understanding of the Nazi's and the German gun control legacy, as well as its impact on our society. Regarding the whole issue of gun rights weighing the most heavily with some voters or as some would call it, single-issue voting I think there is a legitimate reason to view the right to keep and bear arms with the utmost level of importance: it is the "teeth" so-to-speak in the Bill Of Rights and is a conerstone of our Constitutional Republic. Without the RTKBA, the rest is all just a "kind suggestion". There's no reason for Gov.org to heed any of it unless the citizens, from whom the power to govern is supposed to be derived in the first place, have the means to remove it (the government that is) should it run amock. Our entire system was founded with the failsafe that ultimately, if the government got too out of line, the people could use revolt as a tool to correct that. Without the implicit threat of genuine revolution the system breaks down becuase the buearacrats, who otherwise have no reason to heed all the other provisions and general spirit of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, have absolutely no reason to do so.

Having said that, there are things I certainly do not agree with Mr. Keyes on. I think is belief in religion is best left at a personal level and I strongly disagree with his views on abortion. I don't know where he stands on drug legalization but if he's not in favor of it then that's certainly a point of contention for me. These things are all important and each in its own way causes those documents upon which the founding fathers attempted to enshrine a way of governing and recognition of some of the rights they knew free men already possesed, in order to safeguard them, to become de-valued. However, as great of an injustice as an infringement on any of those rights would be, they pale in comparison to the infringement upon the right to keep and bear arms and it's that infringement that removes an essential safeguard from the system.

Look at U.S. history, specifically since the Civil War. As gun control has increased, so too, has the level of power that is coveted by government at all levels. I don't think that is an accident and would make the case that there is a strong correlation there. Also, look at some of the driving motivations behind the major pieces of firearms legislation in the 20th century (NFA '34, GCA '68, AW Ban '94) and while crime and "for the children" are certainly what is sold to the public, each of those points in this nations history has been times when there has been an above average degree of civil unrest, distrust of government, and the potential for revolt on some level. And the politicos advocating this nonsense are well aware of that. Whether it was the fear of recently freed slaves owning firearms after the civil war, labor unrest during the depression, mass protests, civil unrest and revolutionary activity in the 60's, and even the militia movement of the 90's, each has brought on a knee jerk reaction by the goverment to limit the single most effective tool of it's citizens to disobey it.

Just some food for thought on why RTKBA is and ought to be a priority. While there is certainly a big picture to be considered and the importance of these other issues and erosion of freedoms should never be glossed aside, the bottom line for me is that if the sh!t really hits the fan, the right to have an abortion or smoke a joint is not going to do you any good. They will not be what keeps a corrupt government in check.

Link Posted: 8/14/2004 3:36:05 AM EST
I will tell ya guys honestly, what is most important to me is national defense and then gun rights, which I sorta view in the same light. I don't care about education, my child can go to private school payed for by me. I don't care about health care because, again, it is paid for by me. I have the best health insurance money can buy. And here's a little secret the governmenr doesn't want you to know: because individualism and true Republicanism works! I own a small business and to be honest, at times it is nerve racking but it gives me ultimate control over my life. I love how people will spend $800 per month on a car payment to own a BMW and then balk when the gevrnment doesn't provide them with free health care.

WAKE UP CALL AMERICA:

Prescription drugs and health care cost as much as they do because of frivilous lawsuits which are the result of a society that has begun to disregard the value of hard work, morality and responsibility.

Socialized medicine doesn't work, nor does socialized education.
Case in point:

Canadian Doctors moving to the US so they can make enough money to pay their medical school loans back, afterall, they went to school in the evil cold hearted US.

The Chicago public school system.

Political issues should be what matters to you. Just because you are a firearms enthusiast doesn't mean necessarily that the Second Amendment is the issue most important to you and the ideals of America afford all of us the right to forge our own opinions.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 7:15:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By patriot73:

Originally Posted By Forward_Assist:
jsmith48 and patriot73 are the only inteligent life on this thread. Give you half a chance and you throw your vote away? Yeah, oberwise was never for your gun rights, vote for him huh? Then you bitch about it on a gun site? Don't know if your all just young or stupid. Throw your vote away and help obama get in then come back here and bitch when you lose more. Idiots. Hats off to you Patriot73 and the best of luck in your bus. Now flame away idiots.



Thank you. No flame throwing here. At one time in this country a man was expected to fend soley upon himself for everything in his life. This is the life I seek.



+1, thanks forward.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 7:22:29 AM EST



Alan Keyes

It's all right here.

I really want this guy to get in.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 7:27:10 AM EST
Thanks all, this has definitely been an interesting and enlightening thread!
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 11:25:01 AM EST
Vote Keyes.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 11:33:29 AM EST
a vote for Keyes here.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 9:44:17 PM EST


HELL YEAH I'm voting Keyes! His political philosophy matches my own damn near 100%.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 2:37:58 AM EST
Keyes may not have lived in Illinois as long as I have but his opinions on the issues certainly represent mine.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 3:51:58 AM EST
On some points he's almost Libertarian...then he starts to rant about God and moral character, as if the government can effectively legislate those things.

At this point, though, there are a lot more checks in the plus column than the minus column for me.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 3:59:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By mw365:
On some points he's almost Libertarian...then he starts to rant about God and moral character, as if the government can effectively legislate those things.

At this point, though, there are a lot more checks in the plus column than the minus column for me.



I gotta tell ya mw, I agree with you that government cannot and should not legislate morality. But in the day and age of MTV and the Simple Life, isn't a good thing for our politicians to encourage God and morality? There has never, ever been a time in this country when politicians did not talk about God and morality. I agree with you not to legislate, but I think it is paramount to discuss. Just a thought from my end.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 5:05:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/15/2004 5:13:43 PM EST by mw365]

Originally Posted By patriot73:

You know, I think we are all clear that the Illinois Republicans picked Keyes because he is Black to try and win the votes from the ghettos of Chicago. That won't work. These people are complete morons in this state.



Isn't that the truth. These are the same dummies who sold us out in '68 with the FOID.




I know a lot of guys are union guys, but I have to be honest with all due respect, I hate unions. I am a Carpenter, I own my own business and my guys are way, way better off than any Union Carpenter, plus they know how to use a level.


Until a recent promotion, I was a machinist. The guys who worked in my area were better off than others because I knew what I was doing, and had no problems teaching them, mainly because I was not the slighest bit concerned that they would ever be better at it than I am. Mainly, I see people with no skills, who took applied math in high school and learned to balance their checkbook instead of trigonometry, and are screwed because they don't want to go to college or join the military. I did 2 years of an engineering major, so some of my math proved quality control's stuff wrong. Other guys, who are less confident in thier skill set than I am, will train theirs to a point, but embrace the "master never gives away all the tricks" philosophy. I have no problem teaching someone anything I know. If they get better at it than me, whose fault is that? Unfortunately, in a negotiable pay environment, the cutthroat competitive nature can foster this type of thinking, which benefits no one except the guy doing the training. Unions tend to have better luck with this, because people doing the same work make the same pay. That said, a company that standardizes pay grades by skill can have the same results. Where unions tend to fall on their asses is that seniority tends to outweigh skills. You need to recognize both. There are guys who have been there far longer than me, with skills that can only be described as remedial. One of the greatest failings of unions is that they never flush their toilets and let the turds go.


People just need to realize that the reason we are losing so many jobs is because of the insane salaries that must be paid to union workers and for that matter, unskilled factory labor.


Whoa, hoss, where'd you get that? Manufacturing has been in steady decline in America since the late '60s. I've seen unskilled (and supposedly "skilled") factory labor, and nonunion jobs in my neck of the woods top out at around $30,000. When you have a $100,000 mortgage on a modest house and a couple of kids, that ain't a lot, especially when cost of living is a whimisical raise you may or may not get depending on what your company decides to do. The fastest growing union in America is the AFSCME (government workers, surprise, surprise).

If you're talking about prevailing wage for public works projects, they're paid well, but they don't work all year. I'm all for ending unemployment as welfare for this group, however.

One popular cornerstone of the Republican platform is family values. When you both work your asses off to have a decent lifestyle, how do you do that?

For that matter, what good are 3 jobs that pay $8 an hour, as opposed to one that pays $20? WTF do you do with $8 an hour, except get another job (or two)? You sure don't live on it.


I really do not wish to offend, just my humble opion.


None taken, though it is rare that I disagree with you.


I despise unions, I view them as Communist and I don't feel that an assembly line worker at GM should make $60k per year. Why do you think unions almost always support Democrats?


They certainly have some socialist underpinnings, and of late, have become as corrupt as the government that feeds them. I think the Dems tend to give them more handouts, and tend to be more pro-job. Sadly, the unions would probably blast the Repubs even if they were more pro-job, just like AARP got pissed that Dems supported Bush's prescription drug handout.

I don't have a problem with good jobs, period. America needs to get off its ass and start moving ahead in the tech fields, but guess what? Very few people are interested in doing the school to get there. People like me who are willing are hesitant, because the field clobbered so many a few years back after Y2K. On top of that, they're bringing in immigrants to do the work, and Bush reduced the need to pay overtime to highly paid people in that field. Why should I get a degree, and work 90 hours a week for straight time, only to be laid off indefinitely the next time the cycle goes bust, while Haji goes back to India with enough money to live for 20 years? Uncertainity is one thing; indefinite unemployment/gross underemployment is another.

America's financial reckoning is coming. The good jobs are gone, everything is mortgaged to the hilt, thanks to the Fed's ability to essentially create as much credit as they want, every dollar is borrowed into existance, and there is no retirement plan for Gen X, except to work until we die to pay off our parents'/grandparents' little SSI Ponzi scheme nightmare. All it takes is one great big "margin call" like Black Tuesday, to bring the walls down.

I'm all for capitalism. But capitalism has to care. GM has to realize that you don't sell $35,000 trucks to people making $7 an hour, and sure as hell not to people making $12 a day. As patriot73 has pointed out so many times, a lot of this has to do with the boomers, who have FUBARed the whole thing that was SNAFU/TARFUed by their parents.

Japan was lean manufacturing/team building/6 sigma/robotically controlling everything in the '80s, remember? Remember how they were going to take over our economy, put American industry out of business? Where are they now? They learned a hard lesson--shareholders, banks, and robots don't drive the economy--consumer spending does. No money, no spending, no economy. One only has to look back to 9/11 to realize that. What happened that day to make our economy falter? Certainly it was a tragedy, but it didn't cause America to lose hundreds of billions of dollars in value overnight--public sentiment did.

Regardless of a person's political ideology, I believe they have a responsibility to critically examine the events of the world--past and present--and find the seeds of truth in the things people say. The Dems are right about the need for good jobs, but wrong about using socialism to effect that change. The Repubs are right about smaller government and lower taxes, but are foolish if they think high stock prices outweigh the need for high paying jobs. And, to me at least, more and more, the Libertarians seem to be right about more than either one of them.

As far as Keyes and God/morality, he has a right to his beliefs, but is a fool to bring them to government. This is exactly how messes like gay marriage happen. Most people believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, and that's fine. The problem (legally at least) is that there is no marriage provision for gays, which could be construed by a court as discriminatory. So now we have a mess, and the law will have to straighten it out, probably to no one's satisfaction.

The simple solution would be that marriage is a religious institution. As such, the government could not marry people, keeping with the separation of church and state. They could, however, join two people in a civil union that wasn't marriage. The government could recognize marriage as a special example of that same sort of civil union, and convey certain rights upon this civil union. That done, when gays didn't have these opportunities, we could debate the issue on the merits, rather than the emotionalism of it being a perversion of some peoples' fundamental beliefs. And if gays wanted to be truly married, their issue would be with the church, where the debate properly belongs.

Where was the outrage when government stuck its nose into marriage? There was none--ooh boy, handout! handout! The same people who want God to guide America don't want America's version of God. As with anything, they tend to look at it ideally instead of realistically, and bitch when they have to compromise. In the case of what tend to be people's very core values, there is usually little room for compromise.

Cherish your moral values, pass them on to your children, and use them to guide your life. But if you truly value them, do not let the government be involved with them in any way, unless compromising those values eventually is an option you are willing to acknowledge and accept. For most people of faith, it is not an acceptable option, though.

OK, I'm done bitching now.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 7:38:03 PM EST

wow, cliff notes, please?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:50:01 AM EST
MW, well said.

An example of overpaid unskilled labor would be a UPS Driver, oh lord here come the flames.

I know a couple guys who drive for UPS that make well over 60k per year. You made an excellent point in regards to the Machinist situation. The people who are willing to become educated versuses those who are not willing, this is where Unions suck. Why should someone who is skilled be payed what someone unskilled is paid? That's called Communism. Back to UPS, it takes zero skill to drive the big truck and deliver boxes, zero. I'm not saying it's not backbraking, but it takes zero special skills. Yet the Teamsters Union has gotten these people up to like I said, sometimes over $60k per year. Now, if you can't see how that drags down an economy, I don't know what will. GM assembly line workers make I believe around $18 per hour. Now, neither of those salaries are a ton of money, but I don't think they are solid and sensible representations of what these salaries should be. This is why jobs are being sent overseas, because you can pay an educated Indian $1 per day as opposed to an ignorant American that makes $18 per hour, it's simple math. Where I totally agree with you is that the greed and absolute horrifying incompetance of the Babyboomers has screwed us beyond repair. Gen X will never retire, never have a savings and never get ahead like the Boomers did. The Boomers in their pursuit of eternal youth will live forever, further dragging us down. They outrage me beyond belief, from their insisatance upon ideals that are a proved failing notion to Blago bowering billions of dollars in IL for us to payback when he's dead and gone. The Babyboomers do not care about Gen X. They will trump their horn and tell you the money they have made is due to their "strong work ethic" Puuuuuuhhhhhhleeeease. I cannot even work with Boomer tradesmen anymore becasue they are so damn so slow. Maybe it's the age catching up but time is money and in this new economy milking billable hours is again, another failed Boomer ideal.

I believe everyone in America who is willing to work, should have a chance to work and that's it. This country has vever ever guarnteed you wealth nor has it guarnteed that you can "get by" or have it easy or somewhat comfortable by working some socialized union job. That's why I love watching Teddy Kennedy get the plumber's union in Mass all riled up. "You mean the Socialist job that my Grandfather and Father did and supported their families on isn't going to do the same for me?" When you sit on your dead ass, never evolving your thoughts with no more ambition in life than doing what your Father did and then the economy and the world changes and you can't have the lifestyle your parents did working the same kind of job.....
It proves that A. Babyboomers haven't worked nearly as hard as they believe, money doesn't go nearly as far as it used to and B. it means the mentality, if not the structure of America has gone Socialist.

We need sweeping, sweeping change in this country. Unfortunately as Babyboomers clog the proverbial arteries of the work force sucking up money like biscuits and gravy, they also clog the political system. They sit and grow fat in useless UNSKILLED middle managemet corporate jobs being payed multitudes more than they are worth, they aren't even needed to begin with. It will be a long, long time before Gen X gains any substatial power in this country. Be it political or corporate, the Boomer leaches are here for a long time. And just wait until they are all completely retired. Just wait until they start demanding things ala Socialist in their retirement that once again, they will want us to pay for.

This is why I have gone into business for myself. I am tired of following the Babyboomers into the fire. I know their system is a complete failure and will not participate in it anymore. I will tell you I love taking their money from them without having to answer to them and their BS. No more unsensible Boomer lectures that result in nothing sensible, no more stupid and worthless pecking orders and no more drama, they freaking love drama. The "master never gives away all the tricks" is Babyboomer crap as well. This is what I went through as an Apprentice Carpenter. The real idea behind it is when you become more skilled, you can demand more money or....go into business for yourself. I was pretty much begged by the company I did my Apprenticeship with as they are all Boomers, and now falling on their asses financially to come back to work as a Carpenter for $23 an hour and I'd get the honor of working under a 50 something year old Carpenter (Carpenter term used loosely) Wow, what a deal I can work for ten dollars an hour under scale and be under someone who is half as good as me (I worked with him years ago) half as smart as me and half the Carpenter I am. You know why? Because they still believe they can pay us low and have us do the work that a scale Carpenter would make. So I instead went into business myself and am taking away their customer base by putting out reasonable, fair bids. I hope they tank, they deserve it. People on the North Shore as rich as they are, don't have the money they used to. Know why???? Because they are Babyboomers. Their parents left them fortunes that they slaved for and the Boomers have pissed it away on BMW station wagons and trips to Morroco or wherever the hell they go.

Babyboomers will sleep in the bed they make. They don't understand how much they are loathed by their children, they are too stuck on themselves to see it. Well guess what? God help them when we run the show. There is a super conservative generation emerging, a generation that stands ideally in stark contrast to theirs. God help them when we run the show.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:54:13 AM EST
Keyes represents me. I'll vote for him regardless of where he lived. Since the ONLY other viable candidate is Obama, think about how he will 'represent' you before casting a ballot.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:01:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By patriot73:
God help them when we run the show.



Step One: Kill Social Security !

If you've worked your whole damn life in great economic times, and you have nothing saved ? Screw you!

Want free medical care for the last 20 years of your life........ WRONG !

My Dad is a retired union truck driver who moved to FLA, bought a house and Corvette, makes more off his pension than I make working at 37, and he bitches about "living on a fixed income" !.

My Mom is 58, spent her whole life jumping from job to job (she's a nurse) choosing her employers based upon how little she had to work. She has no pension, no savings and is teetering on the brink of her 2nd Chapter 11 or 13. She lives with me and I know I'm never gonna get rid of her.......

Fucking live for today, relative morality, everything is our birthright Boomers......

CKMorley
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 2:18:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By CKMorley:

Originally Posted By patriot73:
God help them when we run the show.



Step One: Kill Social Security !

If you've worked your whole damn life in great economic times, and you have nothing saved ? Screw you!

Want free medical care for the last 20 years of your life........ WRONG !

My Dad is a retired union truck driver who moved to FLA, bought a house and Corvette, makes more off his pension than I make working at 37, and he bitches about "living on a fixed income" !.

My Mom is 58, spent her whole life jumping from job to job (she's a nurse) choosing her employers based upon how little she had to work. She has no pension, no savings and is teetering on the brink of her 2nd Chapter 11 or 13. She lives with me and I know I'm never gonna get rid of her.......

Fucking live for today, relative morality, everything is our birthright Boomers......

CKMorley



They should be very proud of what they have done to this country.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:09:49 PM EST
We can either fix it or it will collapse. One way or the other, it will not last.

One look around at most of our fellow Gen Xers tells me that we may be the first generation (collectively, in general) to lie on our death beds and wish we had worked more.

Pity the Boomers; in any catastrophe, the young and the old are hurt the worst.

They just keep predicting the date that it will fail, and none of them believes it. Must be the "new math" they got taught.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:13:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By jsmith48:
wow, cliff notes, please?



It's fucked up.

We can't fix it.

It's not our fault, just our problem.

Vote to save your guns.

Stockpile ammo.

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 5:54:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By mw365:
We can either fix it or it will collapse. One way or the other, it will not last.

One look around at most of our fellow Gen Xers tells me that we may be the first generation (collectively, in general) to lie on our death beds and wish we had worked more.

Pity the Boomers; in any catastrophe, the young and the old are hurt the worst.

They just keep predicting the date that it will fail, and none of them believes it. Must be the "new math" they got taught.



They are really unbelievable. Their blissfull idiocy is truely laughable.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 8:55:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By mw365:

Originally Posted By jsmith48:
wow, cliff notes, please?



It's fucked up.

We can't fix it.

It's not our fault, just our problem.

Vote to save your guns.

Stockpile ammo.




IWIVS: Kinda like WWJD?
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