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Posted: 1/21/2007 12:08:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/27/2007 8:41:46 PM EST by Grunteled]
I'm at my wits end with my SA58 and trying to scope it. I have an SA58 Predator and I have been trying to scope it for a little more range than I can reliably do with irons. My luck so far has been aweful. I think it ate a Bushnell Elite as the zero was starting to wander around. I then purchased a Leupold 1.75-6X VX-III hoping it would hold up to the action better. Today I nearly toss the whole F'ing rig down the range.

Once again I'm out shooting and at 50 yards the damn thing is tossing shots 2 and 3" away from the main group and the group isn't very good to start with. So after lots of dicking around I finally just said to hell with it and pulled the damn thing off. I then proceed to fire several 1" groups and there was not one of these 3" away fliers. I shot remarkably better with the irons than the scope did.

I know I can shoot fine and when I first got the scope it seemed to be producing pretty good results at the 100 yard line 2" or so and that seems to be about the rifles limit. I have every so often turned in 1" groups at 100 over 5 or 7 shots. Now I'm getting 3 or 4" groups at 50 yards of the damn bags with the scope mounted. Something isn't right.

I'm wondering if there is anyone/anyplace in the KC area where I can take this thing and see if someone can figure out where the issue is (rail, rings, or scope). I don't have enough money or time to start buying parts and swapping them out. I'm pretty close to giving up on the scope and maybe just getting a EOTech or Aimpoint maybe or just keep the irons. I've spent close to $600 now on scopes and mounts and I'm just about finished.

Anyone want to take a look and see if they can find the issue?

Leuplod VX-III.
Warne High Rings.
DSA Extreme Duty Mount.
Link Posted: 1/21/2007 1:12:58 PM EST
When it gets a little warmer maybe we can meet over at Lake City and check it out. Start at 25 Meters and get the windage adjusted and make sure your groups are tight before you move it out to 75 - 100 M.

I know the frustration of getting out to the range and having everything go bad. It is always good to have a few other guns to shoot and have fun rather than just packing up and going home mad.

Until then, take it apart and start over making sure everything is torqued down to manufacturers specs and then lock tite with the purple stuff.

I've got some guns that I need to sight in before the next CMMG shoot.
Link Posted: 1/21/2007 4:13:03 PM EST
Grunteled where you live? If you're up north we can take it out in a field I shoot at and see whats the deal just about any day that works for you I can go out for a long lunch or a few hours on a Saturday. I've probably got a scope we could swap out on there just for a test if you think thats it.

Justin W.

Link Posted: 1/21/2007 6:13:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/21/2007 6:14:40 PM EST by Grunteled]
Thanks guys. I actually enjoyed my afternoon better once I pulled the damn thing off. I was getting some 5 holes touching type groups with the irons. The positive note is that I finally got around to getting the irons zeroed at 50.

Watman, I live in Liberty and often go out to Pigeon Hill or Parma Woods, it depends on how much risk I like in my life when I go out to Pigeon Hill . The scope has been zeroed prior to this so it's not an intial sight-in issue. It's just like my last scope... things seemed good for a while and then it seemed like I was chasing it around more and more.

Here's a shot of what the irons gave me and I was not even working that hard. About 1 shot every 2 seconds here. I really just wanted to burn off the rest of the Remmington Core-Lock I had sitting in the range bag. This was from the bench.




My scope "groups" were about 50% larger than that with half the number of shots. When I tore the rifle down I did note the base of the rings and the rail on the rifle show signs of wear. It seems pretty obvious they are rubbing. I had them torqued down about as hard as my fingers could stand. Maybe I need to look for another quick detach set of rings.

I'll let those who seem interested know when my next range trip is and we'll see if that will work for anyone. I greatly appreciate any help or perhaps suggestions for other rings to hold up to the FAL.
Link Posted: 1/22/2007 5:38:04 AM EST
My guess would be that the scope is moving. Check the mounting of the scope such as the rings or the rail.
Link Posted: 1/22/2007 6:02:12 AM EST
I vote for a loose mount.

IIRC, a FAL's mounting is similar to a SKS in that it is basically a receiver cover and not an integral part of the receiver. If so, therein probably lies the cause of your problem.

Also, if they're brand new scopes, sometimes the reticles can "stick". I had that problem on a used Bushnell 3200 10X that I bought and it was probably why the previous owner sold it so cheaply. A good practice is to sit in front of the TV and rotate a new scope's adjustments all the way in every direction a few times to "loosen" things up a bit. Then find the "center" by rotating all the way one direction and then count the clicks (or rotations) that it takes to get all the way to the other side, divide by two and then move it back to the middle prior to taking it to the range for the first time.
Link Posted: 1/22/2007 7:30:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By eric10mm:
I vote for a loose mount.

IIRC, a FAL's mounting is similar to a SKS in that it is basically a receiver cover and not an integral part of the receiver. If so, therein probably lies the cause of your problem.

Also, if they're brand new scopes, sometimes the reticles can "stick". I had that problem on a used Bushnell 3200 10X that I bought and it was probably why the previous owner sold it so cheaply. A good practice is to sit in front of the TV and rotate a new scope's adjustments all the way in every direction a few times to "loosen" things up a bit. Then find the "center" by rotating all the way one direction and then count the clicks (or rotations) that it takes to get all the way to the other side, divide by two and then move it back to the middle prior to taking it to the range for the first time.


It's possible that something isn't right but the DSA rail mount cover is attached by screws and plates to the receiver and I have it on tight as hell. I can't wiggle that bitch even a smidge. Like I said though I do see wear on the engagement surfaces of the rings and the rails which makes me think they must be moving some.

If it comes to having to lock-tite them to the rail then I'll have to go get some see-through rings so I can use my irons if needs be. This rifle goes hunting and I require the ability to use my irons if the scope fails in the field.
Link Posted: 1/22/2007 5:37:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By eric10mm:

Also, if they're brand new scopes, sometimes the reticles can "stick".

find the "center" by rotating all the way one direction and then count the clicks (or rotations) that it takes to get all the way to the other side, divide by two and then move it back to the middle prior to taking it to the range for the first time.


I had that happen once, and just thought it was a fluke as I had never heard of it before.
Link Posted: 1/22/2007 6:38:08 PM EST
As Duke warned me about this, and I too found out. FALs are hard on scopes.
I had a Bushnell 3 moa red dot that had worked fine for years on my ARs and AKs, but when I put it on the FAL it was a mess. I use the ARMS scope rail/dust cover with a cheap 3x9 Bushnell scope, and some Burris Quick release (high) rings. The 3x9 has been holding up ok with my FAL. I have a good Nikon scope that I was going to put on it, but after further consideration...

Good luck, and let me know how things work out.

DBAR
Link Posted: 1/22/2007 7:11:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/22/2007 7:12:34 PM EST by -Duke-Nukem-]
Link Posted: 1/22/2007 8:38:02 PM EST
Any suggestions on something that will live? I was not under the impression that a VX-III was in the 'cheap' catagory?
Link Posted: 1/23/2007 3:07:29 AM EST
Its not. And if its broken at least you have a lifetime warranty on it. And you have or have not replaced your rings? Do you see any ring marks on the scope itself?

Justin W.
Link Posted: 1/23/2007 6:34:19 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/23/2007 6:49:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2007 6:52:56 AM EST by Grunteled]

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
Any suggestions on something that will live? I was not under the impression that a VX-III was in the 'cheap' catagory?


Honestly, if I were to scope a FAL I'd just save for an ACOG. Which is why mine still has iron sights. You might try a SWFA Super Sniper, they are supposedly built like a bank vault and have really nice optics for $300.

But this question would be best posted on FALfiles. There you could get a plethora of confusing and conflicting answers to choose from! LOL


True. I'm actually considering a EOTech too. Since it's a hunting rifle, cause I want to, I'd like to keep the magnification low (that's why I liked the 1.75-6). That kinda rules out the Super Sniper.

I'm going to tear it all down and start over and if it's still doing this then I'll send the scope in to have Leupold look at it. If it shoots good again, then I'll suspect these rings and see if I can find something different.

An ACOG would be sweet but I'm not ready to drop a grand on a scope really. I'll take the EOTech as I doubt I'll be shooting past 300yds anyway. A little Magnification is nice but not that nice.

Watman,
I may IM you later to take you up on the offer. It would be nice to be able to check things out without putting up with the every 5 minute cease fires at Parma or at Pigeon when they want to shoot two rounds and then walk down to check them.
Link Posted: 1/24/2007 4:25:19 AM EST
Alright. I took it all down and cleaned it off to make sure no grease or anything else was left just in case. The scope body is pristine. No marks at all from the rings nor any indication that it has been moving at all. The rings, as I mentioned, do appear to have been moving as the finish is worn on the rail mating surfaces and the rail shows wear as well. I have remounted them and seriously clamped them down.

I will get a little range time this weekend and I'll use that to re-zero the scope and see if anything has improved. If not I'll probably send the scope back to Leupold and see what they have to say. Then I might take watman's offer to try another known good scope to see if the issue remains or not.

Geez what a headache.

Link Posted: 2/27/2007 8:14:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/27/2007 8:38:31 PM EST by Grunteled]
I pulled it all apart and remounted it paying attention to the bottom of the Warne rings, making sure to get that tight first and then tighten the upper screws. Now the scope was much closer to center when mounted. Plenty of travel on each side. Took it out to the range and once I settled down I was able to eat a single hole out of the center of the target at 50 yards over 20 shots. I would get the occasional flier and I know it has to do with anticipating the recoil.

After I got the scope zeroed I walk down to admire the fact that after it cooled the next 5 shots were exactly on the mark again so I was all ready to go. I was going to go back and pack up for the day. There was a god awful wind that day though and when I turn around I notice that my rifle is not sitting on the table. WTH? I think for a moment that somebody just stole my rifle. Then my gut sank because it was laying on the concrete beside the table.

The damn wind blew the thing off the table. I get over there and it's clear the scope and mount took the brunt of the fall. I brace myself and check the glass and crosshairs. They look ok. The cover was off the finger click adjustment on the elevation turret from me adjusting it and the knob was badly cracked. So I figure the thing is buggered good. I only had 15 rounds left to fire to fix any error this induced or I was not going to be able to use it for the long range steel at the next day's match.

Well two shots showed that the zero was off by about 2MOA to the right and 1MOA up. After 7 shots adjustment the next 6 shots all hit in a 3/4 inch circle at 50yds and that was the end of my ammo. The rifle shot great at the match although I was slower than hell on the pistol side and I had a tough time controlling my breathing. The 50yd zero meant I could stay within 3" to 250yds. After that it starts dropping fast.

I'm rather impressed it took a good 3ft drop to the ground right on the scope and held up to it. The elevation adjustment works fine even with the damaged turret. I'll probably send it in to Leupold in a few weeks to get that fixed and get it checked out.

I think it's the QD rings that are the occasional issue. The marred finish suggests to me even though they felt tight they weren't tight.


The last 6 shots at 50yds. The 7th was a called F-up from me holding my breath too long.
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