I just had a discussion with a few guys about taking these types of classes and attending combat style courses and classes for handguns, and rifles, etc.... They think its a waste of money and time to do this stuff. I disagree. I know most of us here have no problems with it. I personally don't. I feel I would rather take a the classes and gain the knowledge than not know WTF I am doing and then its kinda like a "good luck, hope it works for you" senerio. So the question I pose is:

Does the stuff you learn at these classes really "pay off"? in the sence that are you ever "really" going to use the knowledge you gained from these classes or is it a waste of money for the guy that just plinks at the range?


What are your thoughts, rants etc...

For those of you who know what I am talking about, and where this came from.  You know where I stand on this.

Batch114

I'm just going to tag this for now.

Quoted: Does the stuff you learn at these classes really "pay off"? in the sence that are you ever "really" going to use the knowledge you gained from these classes or is it a waste of money for the guy that just plinks at the range?

Please understand I am personally quite biased.  I am a professional trainor and trainee.  

IF the party is truly JUST a "plinker" he doesn't need anything more than safety training.   A person with this mindset can never be relied upon to be responsible for his security or the security of others despite what he may claim.  I believe most people who claim to be "plinkers" also feel quite capable of defending themselves.  That is when I get frustrated.

People who think they can effectively manage a deadly force incident without training (AND regular practice) are making value judgements regarding the benefits of training without having a clue.  They are either stupid or arrogant or both.  Avoid these people!

I am completely bewildered by the notion that you can learn what you need as a Martial Artist with a gun from a book or movies or IPSC games.  People question why I spend $1000+ to attend a class when I could just go to an IPSC match run by a Viet Nam vet and get the same thing for $10.00?  I simply nod and smile, there is no convincing a fool.

Many people don't need the exotic stuff that some classes go through but EVERYBODY who has an interest in using a firearm for personal security should have some formal training.  Just meeting the guys at the range twice per year doesn't qualify.  Training should have goals and objectives.  It should have a set of experiences or evolutions that lead to the goals.  It should be lead by someone who knows what they are doing.

I am devoted to understanding the limits of myself and my gear.  To that end I want the maximum range of experiences.  As an example here are some of the recent experiences I have had at various training events.

 Night firing using the latest NVG and Thermal gear
 Shooting from vehicles
 Force on Force with Simmunitions including multiple role players
 Indoor and Outdoor Shoot-houses
 Team Tactics
 Flashlight techniques
 Terminal ballistics evalaution and recommnedations
 Preventitive Maintenance for M-4 / M-16
 AAR's from Afghanistan and Iraq

This is way more than most people want or need.  

Does it make sense?  I am very confident, based on my training, that I can provide for my security and the security of those I love.  You need to make your own judgement regarding your personal situation.  Please don't waste your time (you could be training!) arguing with fools who think training is unnecessary and a waste of time.

Jeff

Well, it's apparent that your friends don't believe that they have any sort of real chance of needing to defend themselves with firearms, so let's leave that out of things for a moment;

In any sort of activity, there are a bunch of people who are in it for entertainment only, with no real interest in developing real skills. Then there are a few who actively enjoy developing skills and excelling in what they're doing. Look at any softball team, and you'll see a couple of really solid players and a bunch of mediocire types there simply to play around and socialize. Personally, I've always enjoyed striving to do well at whatever I'm doing. It's kind of funny, because anyone who has watche me walk acros the room can tell that I'm not the most coordinated or graceful guy around, but I tend to rank in the top ten percent of whatever I do, simply because ninty percent of the people doing it never bother to even try to be better than mediocire.

Do your friends feel like people are wasting their money when they pay for golf lessons? Is an amatuer photographer wasting money if he takes a photography class? What about someone who invests the thousands of hours in earning a high ranking in martial arts? On another track, is a layman who takes a first responder class just in case of a medical emergency wasting his money? How about competitive swimmers or runners? Do your friends consider that a waste as well?

Do your friends excel at anything other than their jobs, or is mediocrity pretty much their personal baseline?

I've taken several handgun and carbine classes, and I expect to take many more. They most definately improve my skills, and I really enjoy seeing myself improve. Aside from that though, I have never gone to a class and failed to have a great time. The people are great, the activities are fun and I get to play with everyone else's cool toys.

Our society has become a lazy one, focused on immediate gratification and minimal effort. I used to run cross country in High School. When my youngest daughter signed up for cross country year before last, I volunteered as a coach. I quickly learned that the idea of training outside of scheduled times was completely foreign nowdays. They ran twice a week, and that was it. My wife used to teach TKD, primarially to children's classes, and  the same thing was true there; kids went to class a couple times a week, and would never dream of drilling and practicing on their own. Then their parents would get pissed when the kid wasn't rapidly promoted. (Did you know that at most "Dojos" in the US nowdays, A kid can go to only two classes a week and still "earn" a black belt in two years or less??) That's most of what drove my wife away from teaching.

The intrinsic pleasure of striving to do well at something and suceeding appears to by dying out in our culture.

MGD
A opinion Is like a Ass hole we all got one You do what you want because you like it.
Food for thought this summer there are five killer tornadoes in your area law and order break down!
Like N.O. its everyman for himself Duh I wish I would have prepared for this. I don't take all the training but I will never knock someone that does.
I'm going to just hunker down protect my family and home don't get me wrong if you can go on the offense my plan is make my stand at my home and wait for the Arcom to rescue me with their superior tactics.

I have one guy I work with that is just getting into shooting (like he just bought his first 22).
I have been after him for a while now to get into shooting and to take some classes. His response is that he will just wait until I take the class and then have me teach him. I always laugh at him and tell him he will learn so much more from taking classes that are structured then from Joe schmo telling him what to do at the range (or in his case the field down the road).

I take classes because I really want to learn to shoot better. Bottom line that is what I take em for.
With that said the classes are a whole lot of fun and I get to get out and play with the other kids .
I have already put into practice some of the stuff I learned in classes IE I learned to lift a  leg when laying prone and now I lift a leg when I am laying under a desk at work (I put in network systems for a living) this allows me to breathe better and I am comfortable for longer.
I guess you cannot tell someone to take a class unless they actually want to (feel they will get something out of it). Do what I do take em to a range and let em bang off a couple of mags. Then tell them you can improve their groups and show them how. Tell them this is just one of the things you will learn if you take a class. When they ask you to show them more and more tell em nope take the damn class.

I also tend to talk about how much fun I have at classes at work and off time with my friends so they are always getting pressure to take a class. I do not however come right out and say "take the damn class" unless they are asking me for advice all the time.

I appreciate all the info and comments so far. I will have to say that a little bit of everyones arguement did come up in the conversation. I guess there really is no changing someones mindset if they dont want to expand.

I am trying to get enough input from others, I will then send a link to them and they can read from there.

Thanks again,

Batch114

Quoted: I appreciate all the info and comments so far. I will have to say that a little bit of everyones arguement did come up in the conversation. I guess there really is no changing someones mindset if they dont want to expand. I am trying to get enough input from others, I will then send a link to them and they can read from there. Thanks again, Batch114

Is he even a gun person or 911?

.

You're always going to have the 3 tiers of training thoughts; not needed at all because XXXX, maybe I'll take one, not sure yet, and you bet, the more I know the better I am.  I'm always up for training, even though in the real world I may will never use any of it.  However, if I need it, it's there.  Kinda like the old money in the bank theory.  Some people will never hear what they don't want to hear, they think that because they can shoot on or off a bench well, or they were prior service, that they know all they need to know.  Only way they're going to find out, is unfortunately probably going to be the hard way.

Quoted: I'd take a class if they were free.  Other than that, I'll just read up on some stuff, and shoot a lot on my own.  I have friends who either are or were in the military, if I have any questions I'm sure they'll be able to answer them.

You don't know what yer missing.

Quoted: What are your thoughts?

See sigline.

I don't know about y'all, but I'm not actually "certified" for jack squat, nor do I have any "real world" shooting/medical experience; therefore I take classes, learn, and practice... with the sincere hope that any skills I learn will be taken with me, unused outside of the range and classroom, into my old age.

Quoted: I'd take a class if they were free.  Other than that, I'll just read up on some stuff, and shoot a lot on my own.  I have friends who either are or were in the military, if I have any questions I'm sure they'll be able to answer them.

I spent four years in the military. I didn't know jack shit about shooting until I started pursuing real training. It's interesting to note that higher speed or highly motivated military personal and units often go to civillian instructors to better their skills.

The Defensive Edge classes run a whole whopping $150 for a two day class. How much did you spend on your guns? If you could buy an accessory that would dramatically improve your speed and accuracy for $150, would you? You really don't believe that professional coaching will achieve that?

You can shoot a lot on your own. Or... you can spend a small sum to have a professional instructor who is actively working as a SWAT cop actually teach you how it's done, evaluate your form and offer direct corrective feedback. Classes are also an excellent chance to see what others are using, how it's working for them and how it holds up over several hundred rounds.

We do alumni shoots at Driftless periodically. You'd have to ask bullet catcher for an invite, but you might consider coming to a shoot and seeing for yourself how self taught skills stack up against professional training.

I beliieve no one is going to be responsable for my personal safety besides me,  so therefor I figure why not know the correct way.  So far the limited traning I have had is not only very informative, but a blast who can ask for more than hangin with a great bunch of guys oh and girl too who all share a common intrest.

I don't think any type of education is a waste of time or money,  since knowlege is power why not empower the most important weapon of all you brain?

The I can't afford it issue does't fly with me due to the fact most of the classes like Tommy said are very affordable.  And the same people who say the can't justify the $ will be out at the bar, buying new gear for other intrests/hobbies.
You can never force anyone to do anything they do not want to do.  I read somewhere else "you can lead a horse to water, but i'm not going to suck on his a** to make it drink" some people will never get it.  So on that note if this is how we chose to spend our time/money it is our choice to do so.

Batch you know my personal take on this already and as always I got your 6

BTH out

BTW:  I know I need to take a remedial english class but I can't afford it right know, and i'll never need in the future anyway.

edited to keep this thread on track.

Quoted: I didn't say I was against it, I just want to spend my money on other things right now.  I've heard mixed revies of DE classes, but it seems if someone posts anything bad about them they get banned.   I'd still be open to it, just not right now.

I've never seen anyone get banned for that, and I've yet to see a review that really seemed "mixed"

Quoted: Quoted: I didn't say I was against it, I just want to spend my money on other things right now.  I've heard mixed revies of DE classes, but it seems if someone posts anything bad about them they get banned.   I'd still be open to it, just not right now. I've never seen anyone get banned for that, and I've yet to see a review that really seemed "mixed"

+1 I personally have never seen a bad review for a DE class. Noone I have ever seen has been banned for posting what they truly beleive (weather or not they agree with the majority or not).
As long as there are no COC violations I have never seen BC ban anyone. Heck I wonder if BC ever has banned anyone for anything.

Quoted: I didn't say I was against it, I just want to spend my money on other things right now.  I've heard mixed revies of DE classes, but it seems if someone posts anything bad about them they get banned.   I'd still be open to it, just not right now.

Can you point me to any reviews that aren't positive?

I wasn't aware that anyone had been banned for offering such. Who was it?

I just take classes to meet chicks....
As to the "Mixed review" on Sullies class, I would be interested to get pointed in the that direction..........

I spent 10 years in the service, used every weapon system I could get my hands on. Trained as much as I was allowed.
I shot tens of thousands of rounds. I took my first class this year with my wife, and learned a great deal. It helped me out very much on different levels.
I can say that the classes are worth while. The DE classes are affordable for what you get. I want to be proficient and what weapons I have.
I do have to be realistic about it, spending every last cent I have on classes is not practical nor feasable. I will take the classes I want to and can afford at the time.

I feel I need say something. IPSC, IDPA, USPSA and the like are not substitutes for quality training. They bo have benifits to participating in the sport. Those who think otherwise are kidding themselves and  choose to ignore the benifits.  You anti's can yammer all you want. Just remember a wise man once said "You have to know when to turn it on and off."

Maybe the way everyone is confronting Inforno is just the type of thing he is reffering to??...

Well, I guess I'll add to the hijack too...

AFAIK, the only "mixed" review is Shooter541's (I think that's his handle.  Forgive me bud.) AAR of the Racine Carbine 1 & 2 class.  He had a section called "Druthers" in which he explained that he'd have liked to see a bit more "High Speed" stuff included.  Unfortunately, that class was very large, and the class will only proceed at the pace of the slowest student.

For this horrible affront to DE, he recieved...

...a link to his AAR in the Defensive Edge portion of the industry forum.

Ooooh!  I just remembered another one.  There's a SWAT Magazine review that's got some negative/neutral comments about Sully's Armorer's course.

Is it buried somewhere in the annals of forgotten fluff pieces?

Nope.  There's a link to it right on the front page of DE's website.

The only time I've seen any edited posts or locked threads remotely connected with DE, were from folks who are opposed to "militaristic" type training (not to mention who've never taken a DE class), coming in and crapping on threads in the MN HT, or DE Industry forums.

Now I'll be the first to admit that there could be some threads like you've described, Inferno; but you'll have to excuse me if I ask to see them before I take your word for it.

Quoted: <snip> Maybe the way everyone is confronting Inforno is just the type of thing he is reffering to??...

I see a few "I haven't seen that" and a couple of "can you show me those reviews?" responses. Nothing too confrontational. Certainly no bannings. Hopefully, this kind of exchange isn't too intimidating.

Quoted: Well, I guess I'll add to the hijack too... AFAIK, the only "mixed" review is Shooter541's (I think that's his handle.  Forgive me bud.) AAR of the Racine Carbine 1 & 2 class.  He had a section called "Druthers" in which he explained that he'd have liked to see a bit more "High Speed" stuff included.  Unfortunately, that class was very large, and the class will only proceed at the pace of the slowest student. For this horrible affront to DE, he recieved... ...a link to his AAR in the Defensive Edge portion of the industry forum. Ooooh!  I just remembered another one.  There's a SWAT Magazine review that's got some negative/neutral comments about Sully's Armorer's course. Is it buried somewhere in the annals of forgotten fluff pieces? Nope.  There's a link to it right on the front page of DE's website. The only time I've seen any edited posts or locked threads remotely connected with DE, were from folks who are opposed to "militaristic" type training (not to mention who've never taken a DE class), coming in and crapping on threads in the MN HT, or DE Industry forums. Now I'll be the first to admit that there could be some threads like you've described, Inferno; but you'll have to excuse me if I ask to see them before I take your word for it.

I'll jsut talk about the reviews/AARs
I actually thought those were all good honest reiverws and AARs. Everyone looks for or expects certain things to be covered. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. It can make or break how someone feels about a class. I'd rather hear about what they liked  and the things they were disapointed with then something thats a brown noseing piece.  It doesn't mean that they got nothing from it however if they do mention the things they were disapointed in or thought should ahve been covered but weren't. I have yet to see anyone say they came away from a class disapointed with it completly or that they requested a refund. They always say there was something they learned, and thats the whole reason for taking a class, to learn. Just my $.02 on that part of it.

Quoted: Well, I guess I'll add to the hijack too... AFAIK, the only "mixed" review is Shooter541's (I think that's his handle.  Forgive me bud.) AAR of the Racine Carbine 1 & 2 class.  He had a section called "Druthers" in which he explained that he'd have liked to see a bit more "High Speed" stuff included.  Unfortunately, that class was very large, and the class will only proceed at the pace of the slowest student. For this horrible affront to DE, he recieved... ...a link to his AAR in the Defensive Edge portion of the industry forum. Ooooh!  I just remembered another one.  There's a SWAT Magazine review that's got some negative/neutral comments about Sully's Armorer's course. Is it buried somewhere in the annals of forgotten fluff pieces? Nope.  There's a link to it right on the front page of DE's website. The only time I've seen any edited posts or locked threads remotely connected with DE, were from folks who are opposed to "militaristic" type training (not to mention who've never taken a DE class), coming in and crapping on threads in the MN HT, or DE Industry forums. Now I'll be the first to admit that there could be some threads like you've described, Inferno; but you'll have to excuse me if I ask to see them before I take your word for it.

Did some checking and found the revue you were talking about here.
I cannot see anything "bad" he had to say about DE. Just that he could have liked to see something different. He did say he would attend another class if offered so I guess he does not feel it was a total waste of time.

BTW if I came off as confrontational I apologize to anyone I might have offended.

Quoted: Quoted: <snip> Maybe the way everyone is confronting Inforno is just the type of thing he is reffering to??... I see a few "I haven't seen that" and a couple of "can you show me those reviews?" responses. Nothing too confrontational. Certainly no bannings. Hopefully, this kind of exchange isn't too intimidating.

Quoted: BTW if I came off as confrontational I apologize to anyone I might have offended.

Intimidated, hardly.

Offended, certainly not.

Mearly pointing out what someone might feel is a pattern.  

The only thing I'll add to what's been covered thoroughly is this:

If you're going to take a formal class, you will not find a better value than DETC courses.  They're local and they're much less expensive than any other big-name outfit I can think of.  If you must, sell a gun to get the funds to attend.  You'll be better with the guns you have left.






I almost used the words "operate" and "tactical" in there.  Somebody slap me.

Quoted: LISTEN UP Unless you have first hand experience, or are quoting a posted/published review or AAR  , you are a troll, and have nothing positive to offer.

Okay, that was a wee bit intimidating.  

Inferno, don't let us scare you.  If you haven't figured it out by now, most of the guys who've posted in this thread are very satisfied DE customers, who take advantage of evry opportunity we can with them.  By no means are we shilling for Sully, but as another trainer put it (paraphrased): "Faceless losers posting anonymous bullshit don't fly". Edit:  Please read that statement carefully.  I am not indicating you there.  Hopefully it doesn't come across that way.

If you could IM one of us with where to find an example of the knowledgeable DE critics posting "mixed reviews", I'm sure it would be appreciated.

Quoted: I didn't say I was against it, I just want to spend my money on other things right now.  I've heard mixed revies of DE classes, but it seems if someone posts anything bad about them they get banned.   I'd still be open to it, just not right now.

I'd be curious to see any negative reviews.

I know the folks at Valhalla, Texas, Minnesota, Tactical Response, and quite a few here have all said good things.

Can you point to any links?

Quoted: Okay, that was a wee bit intimidating.

Yeah.  I didn't think the poster was purposely trolling.  Just personally unfamiliar with DETC, and hesitant to get involved with an unknown.  

Quoted: I've heard mixed revies of DE classes, but it seems if someone posts anything bad about them they get banned. LISTEN UP If you want to refer to some reviews you "heard", man up and post them. No heresay. Unless you have first hand experience, or are quoting a posted/published review or AAR  , you are a troll, and have nothing positive to offer. Keep it on topic. bulletcatchR

That my friends is a Mod with stones!

My intent for this topic is not to start an arguement , get peoples panties in a bunch or anything like that. I am just looking for some input on ANY of the training classes not just DE classes . I know the thread got hijacked somewhere, but what are you going to do?

The main points are
do the classes have any value to a civilian or plinker?
will the things you learn become useful?

I believe the more knowledge you have about things the better off you will be in the long run, weather you HAVE to use them or not , you will be ABLE to use them because you know how.

With that being said, I believe most of us agree that it is usefull to some degree, some don't want to spend the money on the courses, maybe they don't have the cash to spend. Others think its a waste of time to go away, spend the money, room, food, gas, ammo, etc....and get nothing in return but an empty wallet.

"you can go out to the club and do all the training you want there. Why pay someone to show you how to shoot, you already know how to do that".

Maybe I want some other ideas, different senerios, Hell I know I must be doing something wrong, I shoot with you guys. Kidding aside. I think everyone can benifit from the courses, it helps with mindset, and hones your skills.
Plinking at the range is fun, don't get me wrong, but learning how to shoot is different than plinking. You won't be plinking if the SHTF, you will want to know how to shoot, fix wounds, secure an area, cover for someone else while they advance.

I guess enough ranting. The responses so far are what I am looking for. Thanks again.

Rogue and BC. I will see you at the Fighting Rifle, and Adv. Fighting Rifle, I know you got my 6 too. That will never be forgotten

Batch114

Quoted: I've heard mixed revies of DE classes, but it seems if someone posts anything bad about them they get banned. LISTEN UP If you want to refer to some reviews you "heard", man up and post them. No heresay. Unless you have first hand experience, or are quoting a posted/published review or AAR  , you are a troll, and have nothing positive to offer. Keep it on topic. bulletcatchR

Any comments to me can be IM'd..I'm done with this thread..

Quoted: Inferno, don't let us scare you.

You guys have the wrong idea.
Every one is being cautious, and courtesy is one of the things I like about the HTF, but Inferno can take it.
If you told him to STFU because he's a fucktarded bitch, he wouldn't blink.
No need to pussy-foot around anything.

He wasn't trolling.
I've seen him be a first rate asshat elsewhere; he was just talking.

We're poor right now and have to make conscious budget alterations to fit in a class/travel/supplies.
I'm also busy as shit and have to cut other things from my schedule to attend a class.
We've never regretted spending the money or making the time.

The bottom line is, if you think that you can get the same thing, some other way, easier or cheaper, you're fooling yourself.

I think this is a great topic,  if we can get through to 1 or 2 more guys on what a excellent opportunity training is and spark the fire inside them we have succeeded,  I'm glad I had people tell me not too long ago their positive veiws on training and got me involved.  I think I am a better person now for the small amount I have recieved.  

Looking forward to june with Batch BC and any others that wanna come with us to Tac response will good to have some familiar face along.  

BTH out

I certainly think training courses are worth it if you want to become more proficient at using a firearm to defend yourself and loved ones.

I've personally never read a negative reivew of a DE class and I can say from my own experience that they were excellent. I've learned more about how to shoot in on day of DE training than in the three years I had been shooting on my own before that.

I guess some people either don't think they have a need for using a firearm for self defense or they truly believe that ignorance is bliss.

BC,

Don't get me wrong. I agree with taking the classes and what you can learn from them. The discussion was with someone who thinks they are all a bunch of crap and just trying to get your money. I am trying to get them to see the other side. They however want nothing to do with it. I guess O'well on their end.

Thanks for the info on what you can learn with an open mind. It doesn't matter what you set yourself to do, just make a plan, have the mindset and go from there.

Batch114

Quoted: BC, Don't get me wrong. I agree with taking the classes and what you can learn from them. The discussion was with someone who thinks they are all a bunch of crap and just trying to get your money. I am trying to get them to see the other side. They however want nothing to do with it. I guess O'well on their end. Thanks for the info on what you can learn with an open mind. It doesn't matter what you set yourself to do, just make a plan, have the mindset and go from there. Batch114

If you really want to get them to see the other side, simply develop your own skills via solid training, and show them what it accomplishes instead of trying to explain it.

Quoted: Quoted: I've heard mixed revies of DE classes, but it seems if someone posts anything bad about them they get banned. LISTEN UP If you want to refer to some reviews you "heard", man up and post them. No heresay. Unless you have first hand experience, or are quoting a posted/published review or AAR  , you are a troll, and have nothing positive to offer. Keep it on topic. bulletcatchR That my friends is a Mod with stones!

You should see the boy shoot.

BC is a stand up guy. He practices what he preaches, and is doing more to further training and skills in this state than most anyone else. He leads by example and by precept, and has most definately earned my respect.

I can't think of anyone more suited to be the mod here.

Quoted: BC, Don't get me wrong. I agree with taking the classes and what you can learn from them. The discussion was with someone who thinks they are all a bunch of crap and just trying to get your money. I am trying to get them to see the other side. They however want nothing to do with it. I guess O'well on their end. Thanks for the info on what you can learn with an open mind. It doesn't matter what you set yourself to do, just make a plan, have the mindset and go from there. Batch114

Bring em with on Friday

I don't think he would come out.  maybe i'm wrong but who knows go ahead batch ask him
I double dog dare ya

BTW photoman, is it cool my wife comes out friday?  she wants to try a few things out to see if the cold weather carbine is for her or not.  im me and let me know don't wanna hijack

BTH out

Do you think back in Japan during the time of the bushi the bushi tried to explain Bushito to the commoners?

Why try so hard....... give them info on where to go to get training and let it be. some will come out some will not it is their loss.


"No one loves a Warrior untill the enemy is at the front gate"

Rogue - Damn hijacker again, didn't we just og over this at breakfast this morning. Damn you , Durka, durka guy.

The double dog dear won't work, most likely has to work. Ill ask Larry and see if he want to take a 37mm foam riot round to the chest. If I keep asking MAYBE he will say yes. Now im done hijacking. Damn me, hijacking my own thread

BC,  I believe I am shouting at the devil. Thanks again for the insight.

Batch114

amen on that batch,  just don't forget the food the gas, and the hotel money

BTH out

Quoted: I don't think he would come out.  maybe i'm wrong but who knows go ahead batch ask him I double dog dare ya BTW photoman, is it cool my wife comes out friday?  she wants to try a few things out to see if the cold weather carbine is for her or not.  im me and let me know don't wanna hijack BTH out

If she thinks it could help her out deciding about the class then by all means I want her to come with.

amen on that batch, just don't forget the food the gas, and the hotel money

Damn you, I got it again

Batch114

Quoted: Rogue - Damn hijacker again, didn't we just og over this at breakfast this morning. Damn you , Durka, durka guy. The double dog dear won't work, most likely has to work. Ill ask Larry and see if he want to take a 37mm foam riot round to the chest. If I keep asking MAYBE he will say yes. Now im done hijacking. Damn me, hijacking my own thread BC,  I believe I am shouting at the devil. Thanks again for the insight. Batch114

Hmm sounds like something Death451 might do