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Posted: 9/14/2011 3:13:54 PM EDT
http://www.theledger.com/article/20110914/NEWS/110919694/1410?Title=Judge-Doctor-Gun-Law-Unconstitutional

The law pushed by gun rights supporters took effect June 2. It was immediately challenged by physicians’ groups who contended it violates longstanding preventative medical practices.

Preventive practices?
Link Posted: 9/14/2011 4:06:16 PM EDT
Why is this in a federal court? The 10 th amendment makes this a state issue. Professions are a privelige, not a right. The state has great latitude in how it regulates them. I don`t see this as a federal issue. The governor needs to appoint Medical board members who will severely discipline practitioners for this conduct. The feds need to but out.
Link Posted: 9/14/2011 7:37:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By arbob:
Why is this in a federal court?
Because it violates the first amendment to the US Constitution or at least that is what the attorneys who filed the case thought... the Judge happened to agree... I agree as well... Sorry...
Link Posted: 9/14/2011 7:55:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Reorx:
Originally Posted By arbob:
Why is this in a federal court?
Because it violates the first amendment to the US Constitution or at least that is what the attorneys who filed the case thought... the Judge happened to agree... I agree as well... Sorry...


And if the Doctor is required by the insurance company to ask you this question or risk losing access to their patients? How do you feel about that? Free speech? Not so much...

Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:59:55 AM EDT
In my mind this is tied very much to States telling Pharmacies that they must carry Plan B.
Both are examples of the state telling a private business what it must do.

"You must keep patients if they refuse to answer."
"You must inventory this drug and sell it."

Either both are wrong or both are right.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 3:42:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lacoochee:
Originally Posted By Reorx:
Originally Posted By arbob:
Why is this in a federal court?
Because it violates the first amendment to the US Constitution or at least that is what the attorneys who filed the case thought... the Judge happened to agree... I agree as well... Sorry...


And if the Doctor is required by the insurance company to ask you this question or risk losing access to their patients? How do you feel about that? Free speech? Not so much...
Apples and pumpkins... Information that an insurance company may or may not require on some stupid ass form is what it is - annoying BS... participation with any given insurance company is voluntary... and as everyone knows, any person who is asked a question by any medical personnel must tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth... Nobody has ever fibbed or told a half truth to any doctor, nurse, etc... in addition, I have never heard of an insurance company rule or reg forbidding a Doc from asking any specific question - have you???

A government forbidding you from saying/asking something is a violation of 1A.

Yeah, I know it is a double standard... we have a flawed society...
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 5:58:56 AM EDT
Glad my Dr. is also a shooter
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 7:14:56 AM EDT
What guns?
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 9:08:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Reorx:


A government forbidding you from saying/asking something is a violation of 1A.
.


No it isn't.
A judge can demand order in his court.
You can be arrested for disturbing the peace ect.

As a Pharmacy Technician it was against the law for me to tell someone that Vitamin C will prevent Scurvy or to suggest any Over the Counter Product.
As a Pharmacy Intern I can only recommend within the FDA guidelines, and established evidence.

It's called a Practice because, they are Licensed to Practice Medicine, and must follow the laws of that Practice.

The funny thing was that I was under the impression that this law simply required the Doctors to show no discrimination to those who chose not to answer.
Anyone know what statue it is?
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 12:13:54 PM EDT
It's illegal in the State of Florida for anyone to promulgate any list of gun owners or CCWs.

A doctor asking questions regarding the ownership of firearms will result in that information being entered in your medical records.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:03:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By America-first:
It's illegal in the State of Florida for anyone to promulgate any list of gun owners or CCWs.

A doctor asking questions regarding the ownership of firearms will result in that information being entered in your medical records.

And I believe some of them were giving info to anti gun groups. What
kind of info? I don't know.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 5:52:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Reorx:
Originally Posted By arbob:
Why is this in a federal court?
Because it violates the first amendment to the US Constitution or at least that is what the attorneys who filed the case thought... the Judge happened to agree... I agree as well... Sorry...


Me too. Doctor has the right to ask whatever questions he feels are appropriate, he can speak freely on any matter.

You have the right to decide your doc is a jerk and go somewhere else.

What if the shoe was on the other foot and it was illegal to discuss guns?

First amendment applies to ALL speach, even the speach I don't like.

Link Posted: 9/15/2011 5:58:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2011 6:04:50 PM EDT by PR361]
Originally Posted By America-first:
It's illegal in the State of Florida for anyone to promulgate any list of gun owners or CCWs.

A doctor asking questions regarding the ownership of firearms will result in that information being entered in your medical records.


Maybe, and only if you answer, and are truthful. And a note in a privacy protected medical record that cannot be shared or compiled with other records(aqaint yourself withHIPPAA) hardly constitutes a list in my view, especially if it is non specific

None of your business if I was ever asked, which I haven't been.

My kids Pediatrician and I do swap hunting stories though....

Link Posted: 9/16/2011 9:10:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PR361:
Originally Posted By America-first:
It's illegal in the State of Florida for anyone to promulgate any list of gun owners or CCWs.

A doctor asking questions regarding the ownership of firearms will result in that information being entered in your medical records.


Maybe, and only if you answer, and are truthful. And a note in a privacy protected medical record that cannot be shared or compiled with other records(aqaint yourself withHIPPAA) hardly constitutes a list in my view, especially if it is non specific

None of your business if I was ever asked, which I haven't been.

My kids Pediatrician and I do swap hunting stories though....



There is a bit of a controversy over HIPAA now that Obamacare requires the nationalization of medical records. When your medical record stayed put in your doctor's office, things were a little different. Now that they are compiled into a national network, it is easy to see where a registry could occur. Personally, I just wouldn't answer the question, because no matter how you boil it, to me, it is none of the doctor's business. After reading stories where senior citizens have had their entire gun collections seized because their spouse died, I don't intend to have a tragedy in my life become an excuse for gun grabbers to come knocking on my door.
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 8:40:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MisterB:
Originally Posted By PR361:
Originally Posted By America-first:
It's illegal in the State of Florida for anyone to promulgate any list of gun owners or CCWs.

A doctor asking questions regarding the ownership of firearms will result in that information being entered in your medical records.


Maybe, and only if you answer, and are truthful. And a note in a privacy protected medical record that cannot be shared or compiled with other records(aqaint yourself withHIPPAA) hardly constitutes a list in my view, especially if it is non specific

None of your business if I was ever asked, which I haven't been.

My kids Pediatrician and I do swap hunting stories though....



There is a bit of a controversy over HIPAA now that Obamacare requires the nationalization of medical records. When your medical record stayed put in your doctor's office, things were a little different. Now that they are compiled into a national network, it is easy to see where a registry could occur. Personally, I just wouldn't answer the question, because no matter how you boil it, to me, it is none of the doctor's business. After reading stories where senior citizens have had their entire gun collections seized because their spouse died, I don't intend to have a tragedy in my life become an excuse for gun grabbers to come knocking on my door.
Yeah, I worry about medical records in the "cloud" as well... I think it's a bad idea - but the powers that be didn't ask me for my thoughts on the matter...

In terms of Docs entering gun ownership in the medical record... If you think about it, while this type of entry may in some cases produce some liability on the part of the Doc, there is no real (medical) benefit to entering this information in the medical record... Unless there is some rule or regulation requiring this information to be included on some form or in the med record, any Doc would be best served by keeping patient gun ownership out of the medical record... I talk to patients all the time about firearms and firearm related stuff - 2A issues, CCW issues, trade hunting/fishing/outdoor stories, compare notes on pieces we own, etc... I can't think of a good reason to enter any of that stuff in a medical record though... and haven't...

Last time I looked, the number one reason to call poison control for a child under 5 y/o is Flintstones vitamins with iron... how many Docs ask about Flintstones vits with iron "ownership" and then document it in the medical record!?!?!?!? I am always amazed that how our society is ruled by the media and what items are considered popular/vogue/news-worthy/buzz words... anything associated with guns is a "big deal" because the liberal media says so!!! REALLY?!?!?!? but Flintstones vitamins - not so interesting or news-worthy...

Link Posted: 9/17/2011 5:53:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Reorx:
Originally Posted By MisterB:
Originally Posted By PR361:
Originally Posted By America-first:
It's illegal in the State of Florida for anyone to promulgate any list of gun owners or CCWs.

A doctor asking questions regarding the ownership of firearms will result in that information being entered in your medical records.


Maybe, and only if you answer, and are truthful. And a note in a privacy protected medical record that cannot be shared or compiled with other records(aqaint yourself withHIPPAA) hardly constitutes a list in my view, especially if it is non specific

None of your business if I was ever asked, which I haven't been.

My kids Pediatrician and I do swap hunting stories though....



There is a bit of a controversy over HIPAA now that Obamacare requires the nationalization of medical records. When your medical record stayed put in your doctor's office, things were a little different. Now that they are compiled into a national network, it is easy to see where a registry could occur. Personally, I just wouldn't answer the question, because no matter how you boil it, to me, it is none of the doctor's business. After reading stories where senior citizens have had their entire gun collections seized because their spouse died, I don't intend to have a tragedy in my life become an excuse for gun grabbers to come knocking on my door.
Yeah, I worry about medical records in the "cloud" as well... I think it's a bad idea - but the powers that be didn't ask me for my thoughts on the matter...

In terms of Docs entering gun ownership in the medical record... If you think about it, while this type of entry may in some cases produce some liability on the part of the Doc, there is no real (medical) benefit to entering this information in the medical record... Unless there is some rule or regulation requiring this information to be included on some form or in the med record, any Doc would be best served by keeping patient gun ownership out of the medical record... I talk to patients all the time about firearms and firearm related stuff - 2A issues, CCW issues, trade hunting/fishing/outdoor stories, compare notes on pieces we own, etc... I can't think of a good reason to enter any of that stuff in a medical record though... and haven't...

Last time I looked, the number one reason to call poison control for a child under 5 y/o is Flintstones vitamins with iron... how many Docs ask about Flintstones vits with iron "ownership" and then document it in the medical record!?!?!?!? I am always amazed that how our society is ruled by the media and what items are considered popular/vogue/news-worthy/buzz words... anything associated with guns is a "big deal" because the liberal media says so!!! REALLY?!?!?!? but Flintstones vitamins - not so interesting or news-worthy...



Yeah.. I really think there should be a question about ladders and bathtubs too. I think statistics would support my theory if I pressed it.
I wonder though, if these questions would be used by my insurance company to raise my rates? They undoubtedly have access to my medical record.
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 8:16:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Reorx:
Originally Posted By arbob:
Why is this in a federal court?
Because it violates the first amendment to the US Constitution or at least that is what the attorneys who filed the case thought... the Judge happened to agree... I agree as well... Sorry...


What about the patient`s 4th amendment rights? I have no problem with information being provided in an objective proactive manner and giving patient`s the choice to discuss it, but invading their civil rights in an area that is not relative to their care is improper. A physician is free to have personal opinion and beliefs, that doesn`t mean he/she has the right to impose it on you in the exam room. If they have strong views on an issue, they should make it known up front, and give the patient the opportunity to make an informed choice.
Link Posted: 9/17/2011 9:01:39 PM EDT
Has anyone's doctor ever asked them if they own guns?
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 8:57:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 9:03:16 AM EDT by Flat_Dog]
Medicfrost-my doc asked me.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 10:04:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Medicfrost:
Has anyone's doctor ever asked them if they own guns?


My daughter's pediatrician did on the new patient form and the question irked me, but I also answered yes. They never mentioned it beyond the question on the form. If they didn't plan on doing anything with the question why have it on the form?
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 10:15:43 AM EDT
There should be a 'none of your damned business' checkbox, unless the patient is obviously batshit crazy certifiable. Even then, it's not illegal to be nuts and own a gun...
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 11:09:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Flat_Dog:
There should be a 'none of your damned business' check box, unless the patient is obviously batshit crazy certifiable. Even then, it's not illegal to be nuts and own a gun...


I shouldn't have answered it and it still pisses me off to this day. Not that they asked, but that I was stupid enough to answer yes.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 11:12:46 AM EDT
I hear ya.

I said no, since my wife owns the guns. ;)
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 4:57:20 PM EDT
Guns = tools.

No guns but I have a large tool collection.

Quite a few of the doctors I work with are either active shooters/hunters or proponents of gun ownership. Even the ones who don't actually own guns themselves take a positive position when I discuss them.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 4:14:08 PM EDT
The kids doc asked if we had any guns in the house.
I asked her if she had any dildos in her house.

The wife takes the kids in now.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 4:43:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NoFnNamesLeft:
The kids doc asked if we had any guns in the house.
I asked her if she had any dildos in her house.

The wife takes the kids in now.




Link Posted: 9/21/2011 7:20:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NoFnNamesLeft:
The kids doc asked if we had any guns in the house.
I asked her if she had any dildos in her house.

The wife takes the kids in now.




That is awesome!
Link Posted: 9/22/2011 7:40:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By arbob:
Originally Posted By Reorx:
Originally Posted By arbob:
Why is this in a federal court?
Because it violates the first amendment to the US Constitution or at least that is what the attorneys who filed the case thought... the Judge happened to agree... I agree as well... Sorry...


What about the patient`s 4th amendment rights? I have no problem with information being provided in an objective proactive manner and giving patient`s the choice to discuss it, but invading their civil rights in an area that is not relative to their care is improper. A physician is free to have personal opinion and beliefs, that doesn`t mean he/she has the right to impose it on you in the exam room. If they have strong views on an issue, they should make it known up front, and give the patient the opportunity to make an informed choice.


There is no 4th Amendment issue here, for a couple reasons:

1. Asking a question is not a search in any sense of the word, and
2. The doctor is not an agent of the government
Link Posted: 9/23/2011 10:14:25 PM EDT
+1+ on NoFnNamesLeft's post

Doctor asks: "Do you have a gun in your house?"

My answer: "I would never have A gun in my home."

I suspect that virtually ALL of us would be accurate in saying that.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 9:43:49 PM EDT
So lemme get this straight. The law did not prevent the dr from asking the question but only from refusing to provide care if the patient declined to answer or answered yes? If that is so, how can you say it is a first amend violation to prevent the dr from discriminating against gun owners? Isn't it illegal to discriminate against other groups etc?
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:15:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Medicfrost:
Has anyone's doctor ever asked them if they own guns?


I was wondering the same thing... do they only ask children? are they afraid of lead poisoning?? what is the reason for the question???
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