On the 6pm news, they interviewed Jack Smith from the Jack Smith gun shop, and he was saying basically how Wal-Mart shouldn't sell firearms, because even though the sale was legal, HE would know better that the person had a condition of past mental illness or drug abuse

Here's the transcript:
Reporter: Would you say that that's the problem with these big chain stores selling the weapons?
Jack Smith (JS): Exactly. Last week they were stocking soccerballs, this week they are doing something else.

They go on to talk about the ATF form, and the mental fitness questions.

In regards to how people have to answer the form, based on the honor system:

JS: That's the problem.  You have no idea if whether they are telling the truth or not.  If you don't have experience (trails off)

They go on to say that she filled the form out correctly, and that she passed a NICs check.

I know that depending on how the soundclips are edited, you can make it sound worse than it is, but this was pretty clean.  He makes it sound like if she would have tried to purchase the gun at his shop, he would have not sold it to her, because he is experienced....

double edged sword...  

he might have known that, and great if he did know and would deny her a sale for good reason, but he infers that he would KNOW that whereas wally world "associates" would not...  i'm no promoter of the big stores, and mostly i'm anti-big store, but his replies to questions on tv did the gun community no favors.  by what was aired, it is inferred that the small store "knows better" and the logic next is: by that rationale they are not only obligated to know but somehow responsible for something, somewhere...  don't think i'm right?  wait until some trixter lawyer gets his hands on something like this and runs with it...

s.tank

booger,

you're right.  i can see how this jack fellow would pick up on "no-no's" while patrons were in his stores.  i consider this his responsibility as a free born american and a business owner capable of making those decisions.  

does this mean i agree with wally world being denied the opportunity to sell guns?  i don't know...  i'm glad jack has the good sense to do the right thing when given the opportunity, but this is more a matter of perception isn't it?  for every guy like jack it is highly likely there are some who aren't.  those people are sole proprietors of businesses as well.  being a business owner doesn't automatically make you smart.  i own a business and i'm the dumbest guy i know...  

i can't help but wonder if wally world type stores are good ones to eliminate, but i'm afraid this is the double edged sword i spoke of earlier - when do you stop?  who decides which stores are fit, based on the "vision and insight" of their employees?  whoever that is, should they actually have that power?  the answer is likely a "no" on all counts.  we already have the BATFE and they do what they do.  what they going to do differently?  an IQ test, followed by gun knowledge test, with an extra credit morality question, wrapped up by a personality contest?  i doubt it...

i suppose the real answer here is to stick with the guys we are comfortable with - not the big store.  i buy all my stuff through one guy and have for years because i'm comfortable with him.  i have to drive two and half hours one way to pick my stuff, but i like him.  i wouldn't buy a gun from wally world if it were 50% off wholesale...  i won't support the "big guy" who destroys the little guy and slowly the little town around him.  do i think he should lose the ability to sell guns?  no, probably not...

what do you think?

s.tank

How far is this from individual county sheriffs deciding who can obtain a carry permit and who can not?  I am a little liqoured up tonight, but it seems like the same argument.  Anderson in polk is one thing, but try getting a ccw in Des Moines county (Burlington).  My  thoughts are that we should make a firm set of rules, make it even, and make it state wide (country wide is better).  I don't want the discretion to be up to the person on the other side of the counter, or the guy who has happened to take up law enforcement as a career.  If you meet a defined criteria to own a firearm, there should be no ifs ands or buts about it.  If I have long greasy hair, belong to the ethnic group of your choice, or have a lot of "bling bling" and want to own a firearm, it should be as easy for me to pick one up as the clean cut guy who lives next door.  Local discretion is bull, and people should not have to prove they are not criminals in order to carry or purchase.  There is no double edge about it.  If you mess up, you pay the price, as I hope she will.

My next rant would be about voting rights and gun ownership rights of prior felons, and when your debt to society is paid, but I have found my arguments are normally lost on the general public.  Call me a radical, I can live with it, even if I am as likely to label an ex-con as you are.

Edited to add: If you own a business, it is well within your right to determine who to do business with.  However, the thought that you should be the only business or person to make those decisions for all firearms (or other material) sold to the general populace is ludicrous.

Edited again to add that I have no firsthand knowledge of the news piece this thread is based on, so gauge your reactions accordingly.

While the smaller dealers are fed up with big stores, some are fed up with the historical gouging that goes on in the small dealer shops.  Me, personally, I like to see a price, think it's fair, and pay it, without having to haggle with the dealer telling me he has a family to feed, etc.  I have a family to feed too.

A guy I know told me the other day that he bought a rifle from JLM.  He said it was tagged at $430, and he ended up getting it for something like $220.  Are you kidding me?!?!  100% mark up.  For every savvy shopper, there are 10 that aren't.  I can see why the mom and pop shops are getting scared.

I'm willing to give smaller shops a chance.  I wanted to purchase a handgun, and I found a pretty good price online.  Armed with that knowledge, I went to a local shop, which had that particular handgun in stock, and tried to buy it.  I told them that I could get it for $xxx, but that I wanted to buy it locally.  I said that I realized they would most likely not be able to match the price, but if they could come down off of theirs, I'd buy it.  They didn't budge.  

And when they give the line of "I can't even buy them for that price", that is even more insulting than not saying anything, because 99% of the time, it is a lie.  Don't penalize the consumer because you cannot get better pricing.  If a dealer cannot get something for the price that people are selling it for on the internet, why aren't they buying the ones on the internet and selling those!

Quoted: My next rant would be about voting rights and gun ownership rights of prior felons, and when your debt to society is paid, but I have found my arguments are normally lost on the general public.  Call me a radical, I can live with it, even if I am as likely to label an ex-con as you are.

So you are against the Sex Offender registry?  After all, they have paid their debts to society.

yammer,

my apologies if i've offended you.  this was not my goal or intention.  it is hard to convey sentiment in black and white.  

i agree in that if you fall into the criteria to be issued a permit according to the state or federal laws there is no more negotiation.  you should be issued.  

the state or federal governments DO NOT own the gun shops and therefore don't set their business policies.  ever seen "we have the right to refuse service" on the wall?  they have that right and should exercise it - whenever they want - simple.  the reaction to this is two things:  one, you'll leave and probably won't go back.  two, they won't get your hard earned money.  as a result, you have the choice to buy it elsewhere - not that you are barred of buying firearms completely...  how many places sell guns in the des moines area?  over a dozen, maybe two dozen.  if one takes a "notion" to you or the situation in a store and denies you service, so be it - buy it somewhere else.  

if you believed someone in your store had ill-intent when purchasing a product, regardless of what that product was, don't you think you should give it some thought?  if i own a gas station and i have a guy on a rant about burning his neighbors house down, i think i'll tell him to take his red 5 gallon can and fill it elsewhere...  i don't look at people's hair style or skin color when working, i look at the color of their money.  if i actually suspect foul play i'm going to act on it.  no more, no less.  i'm guessing that's what  jack was up to.  i don't know for sure, i haven't met him.  i can say i've been in similar situations and can relate.  

i don't want to be refused service anymore than you do, but the fact is the business owner can do just that.  don't like it?  buy it elsewhere.  just because they sell guns, doesn't mean they have to sell them to everyone, everytime they want them.

clear as mud?

this strayed a little from what i was trying to convey in my first post reply...  i was concerned mostly that the news had twisted something into something other than what it is.  i don't know the situation with certainty - who really does?  i was concerned about whether the big store vs. the small store would become the issue.  people watching the news don't take other considerations over what jack said...  jack knew of this gal, so does booger.  they are small business owners.  it is implied the big store doesn't.  not true.  as it is today, the guy working the counter at the local wally world, may or may not know the members of the community well.  maybe not.  admittedly probably not...  so if by this rationale this gal went to JLM over on the west side, would she be turned down?  likely not.  they don't know her any better than the dipshit at wally world - yet they are small business owners.  see what i mean?  if i were running a responsible wally world, i'd put a guy in charge of the sports section to just like they have in a small store.  more responsibility, more accountability.  i understand some stores do this.  most don't.  you then are buying on price.  my experience says this is a poor idea.

i know money is tight.  i put my money into the "gun fund" just like anyone else, and yes my wife routinely raids it...  i buy from one guy primarily because he is reasonable on price, but more importantly he takes care of me and we have a great buyer/supplier relationship.  i've had very few issues, but when i have, he has stepped up to the plate and helped every chance he got.  that's what i acutally bought by paying a little more money.  besides, the stuff i buy rarely is carried at chain stores...

i'm no lib.  don't think for a minute i'm even close.  i do believe we all have choices when it comes to private business and we should.  this is not to be mistaken with government - a local sherriff deciding you don't need a CCW because you wore an ear ring to fill out your permit papers is bullshit...

my fingers hurt...

s.tank

So you are against the Sex Offender registry? After all, they have paid their debts to society.

Someone who is truly still dangerous should not be in contact with the public to require a registry.  Maybe the problem is with the sentencing in the first place.  Although, to be honest with you, I could care less one way or another about a registry.  Like I said, I am as likely to label someone by what they have done in the past as the next guy.

Do you really think that Martha Stewart should be considered such a heinous person that she should be barred from owning a firearm?

Quoted: So you are against the Sex Offender registry?  After all, they have paid their debts to society.

i think it is a step in the right direction, but it could have been done in a better fashion.  hear me out on this.  

i have a friend who is on the registry.  why you ask?  he and i "mooned" the other team at a football game along with several other drunks...  just so happens he got pinched along with a couple other of the dozen or more guys who did it.  should he be kicked out of iowa due the fact he is by current definition a "sex offender"???  i hope not.  if this is our course of action unilaterally it is a mistake.  don't think i wish easy treatment of purps.  we don't punish them enough.  i see no such thing as rehabilitation in our prisons.  nor do i expect it.  people are sent to prison not to become nice people again - they are sent to pay back the victims for having been wronged - it is punishment, not time out.  surely the registry will be fine tuned a little.  for now, we've lumped stupid actions by a kid in with kiddy rapers.  they don't deserve the same punishment.  that's my problem with it as it is today.


s.tank

my apologies if i've offended you. this was not my goal or intention. it is hard to convey sentiment in black and white.

Not even close to offended.  Last night at 3:45 I was working my way through a box of the champaigne of beers and was on a roll.  If there was a notation for everytime that post was edited to be intelligible and in English this would be a three page thread (exaggerating for effect).  I didn't realize I even appeared offended.  Oops.  

ever seen "we have the right to refuse service" on the wall? they have that right and should exercise it - whenever they want - simple

Amen.  Thus the first edit.

I can see where my rant made a poor connection between govt and private enterprise.  I think I was aiming more at the mindset behind who should be available to collect our purchasing dollars.  I am just glad my head doesn't hurt this- wow, it's afternoon.

It is funny how booger has described the No sale actions that Jack looks for. I have went into his shop twice now, and both times I was left with a feeling of get out. Maybe I just don't look of a mature age, or act a certain way, but I definitly know I won't go there again. I hope that this incident and his quotes never become a means for anyone to use in an unitended maner.

I don't think that large stores should go away, but I do think that Wal-Mart's practices need to be changed. In IA they are the largest employer of welfare receipients. Does anyone else find this to be odd. Shouldn't you not be able to receive welfare benefits if you have a job? Or does it simply mean that Wal-Mart found out that they receive a tax break by hiring and employing walfare receipients, while never wanting to give them the "means" to get off of welfare. Anyway food for thought. I will never personally spend my money in a Wally-joke.

[/rant]

Enjoy the warm weekend Shoot!

blackta6,
Don't feel like the lone stranger to do with your experince at Jack's. This is not the first Jack Smith thread posted here. He has ran off more that one potential customer that I know of who were retired military, and also current law eforcement. I myself went to his store three times, and decided that I'd heard enough.  

for the record...  i don't actually approve of men with ear rings...



-septic tank

i wanted ear jewelry so bad i could taste it when in high school.  my dad offered his help.  for a few minutes i thought he was the coolest guy ever...  he then proceeds to reveal a ball peen hammer and a finishing nail.  he was even so thorough as to bring an ice cube to numb my ear...  he pointed to the vise in his shop and i lost all the desire to have my ear pierced...

maybe i have a subconscience ear ring envy, but i doubt it...

s.tank

I have bought from Jack before.  He is definitely an opinionated individual.  I can see how some may feel put off by him, but I have not.  I did not hear the interview so I cannot comment on that.

I do tend to believe that a "gun" person may be a lttle more intuitive when making a sale than some person at wal-mart that may not even know anything about guns.  This seems like a case of someone slipping through the cracks.  It could happen anywhere and I'm sure this is what scares gunshops.  That lovely word liability.

On JLM.  I'm not trying to dissuade anybody from purchasing there, but I have to agree that their
prices are always higher than elsewhere everytime I have called.  So I don't bother anymore.
Same with Jim's Gun and Pawn.  Sportsman's Warehouse, Jack Smith, Gunshows, Gunbroker, CDNN, and Guns America are where I shop.

On JLM.  I'm not trying to dissuade anybody from purchasing there, but I have to agree that their prices are always higher than elsewhere everytime I have called.

i was going to let this drop eventhough it lit a fire in me, but i'll tell you straight up that JLM will never see me again...  hands down, the worst ownership i have ever been exposed to.  i used to buy a great deal from them, but one day the owner (L) lost control over something really trivial and i was actually scared of his reaction.  no purchase is worth a poor situation like i witnessed.  not for a million dollars...  that place is a ticking bomb - literally...

JLM???  terrible and then some...

s.tank

Quoted: On JLM.  I'm not trying to dissuade anybody from purchasing there, but I have to agree that their prices are always higher than elsewhere everytime I have called. i was going to let this drop eventhough it lit a fire in me, but i'll tell you straight up that JLM will never see me again...  hands down, the worst ownership i have ever been exposed to.  i used to buy a great deal from them, but one day the owner (L) lost control over something really trivial and i was actually scared of his reaction.  no purchase is worth a poor situation like i witnessed.  not for a million dollars...  that place is a ticking bomb - literally... JLM???  terrible and then some... s.tank

Please, do tell!

The little guys  Jack Smith, JLM, the trading post dont have the buying power of the Walmarts, scheels, sportmans ect,  Here is an example.  , HK the more you buy the cheaper you get there guns..$5000.00 order might get you 15% off the total so being dealer direct as hk is you can imagine what scheels order is with twelve stores.  The little guy are getting pushed out of bussiness.. another example The ruger rep told me once that walmart bought 10-22's buy the railcar load.  so they can sell them at $139.00 when dealer price is $169.00 thats right folks thats what the small guys pay for them;  there is not a huge margin in guns your lucky to make 20% on a new gun..as for used guns most dealers try and put an actual cash value on your gun normally 50% to 75% of what the gun cost them.. Not what you paid what they paid for it ..They obviously cant put $400.00  in your glock that you just Bought for $400.00 they have to make there profit just to stay in busssiness.  Just to clear things up..  

I dont know Jack Smith so no Comment
JLM-Very unfriendly Ass hat
Scheels-Deal with Justin Allis or Ed Metgar
Jims Gun and Pawn-Seen some deals but over priced
Broomley-mason city overpriced
Sportsmans-Had great luck
Trading Post-Good guy not a lot of selection Cheap transfers
General sports service-Growley  but a great gusnmith Cheap tranfers

Quoted: ....The ruger rep told me once that walmart bought 10-22's buy the railcar load.  so they can sell them at $139.00 when dealer price is $169.00 thats right folks thats what the small guys pay for them....

Now I'm not a business person, but I know this...  If I was a gunshop that sold 10/22s, and I paid $169 for them while Wal-Mart SELLS them for $139, I would either:
- Not sell 10/22s
- Specialize in firearms that Wal-Mart doesn't sell
- Buy the 10/22 from Wal-Mart for $30 cheaper than you can from your standard distribution channel

If gunshops were losing money, they wouldn't be open.

this is true but misleading...  walmart corp may actually buy a "lot" order from Ruger, but is for one or two models - like the standard wood unit blued or maybe the stainless synthetic, but if you went into wally world and priced another gun they don't buy in huge lots the price is more in line from time to time.  don't think that just because they buy the 10/22 ultra cheap means they can and do buy the 77 or #1 cheap.  they appeal to the masses...

how many of us don't have or never had owned a 10/22?  very few...  what about the 77 or #1?  the number dwindles significantly...

it is a shitty deal, but bogz is right - this is an example of when capitalism is tough on some folks, even when they do it right.  the answer is to build up your portion of the "gun business" that wal mart either can't or doesn't fill...

"valued added" ring a bell?  when the world buys on "price" the answer is "value added" - no more, no less...

septic tank

Quoted: Quoted: On JLM.  I'm not trying to dissuade anybody from purchasing there, but I have to agree that their prices are always higher than elsewhere everytime I have called. i was going to let this drop eventhough it lit a fire in me, but i'll tell you straight up that JLM will never see me again...  hands down, the worst ownership i have ever been exposed to.  i used to buy a great deal from them, but one day the owner (L) lost control over something really trivial and i was actually scared of his reaction.  no purchase is worth a poor situation like i witnessed.  not for a million dollars...  that place is a ticking bomb - literally... JLM???  terrible and then some... s.tank Please, do tell!

Would like to hear the story as well. IM me if you don't want to post it.

to be completely honest i wish i wouldn't have said anything...  i'm not afraid of who'll be offended, i don't want a legal issue as a result...

suffice it to say the ownership appears to be unstable in a myriad of ways and i choose to do business any other place in the hemisphere...

i suppose you can't put the shit back into the horse though can you?  i wish i could give my full opinion here but the conduct code disallows it...

septic tank

what ever happened to this little gal?  i haven't heard what the scoop is with this?

s.tank

Quoted: what ever happened to this little gal?  i haven't heard what the scoop is with this? s.tank

Last I heard the Jasper county attorney charged her with attemped murder. She pled not guilty. Trial date is April 5.

attempted?  i thought the dude died?  

www.whotv.com/Global/story.asp?s=4373969

huh...  i guess there may actually be a reason to watch the news from time to time...  i've become so unhappy with the news coverage i'd all but quit watching...

thanks milldude...

septic tank

As the box o truth says, "Bird shot is for birds, not for humans"