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Posted: 12/5/2004 10:18:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2004 8:53:18 PM EDT by MisterPX]
OK, we've been himwaeing this thing for months, and some of us have been dedicated for those months.  It's time to see who's in on the LLC.  Lawyer route is $800, cost broken down amongst participants, or we can set up online using somebody's address ( would prefer lawyer myself).  Anyways, last call for this project, I would like a final list by Sunday the 12th.



Who's In?
Tattoo
Photoman
Mister PX
Rob877
FMD (possibly)
Personal friend (possibly)
Link Posted: 12/5/2004 11:53:06 PM EDT
Will,
What's the deal with the LLC.

Does the corp buy the goods and own them,or does the individual member?

IM me your phone # and I'll call you.SHould have talksed about it when you were here.

I'm for the lawyer route,as long as we get some kind of "contract" that will spell out how much he gets for mailing,etc. after the deed is done.

Stan
Link Posted: 12/6/2004 11:07:03 PM EDT
IM sent.
Link Posted: 12/7/2004 5:25:49 AM EDT
im in but you already knew that
Link Posted: 12/9/2004 4:39:03 AM EDT
Bump, I know more than 4 of us were interested in doing this, Speak up folks come on don't be shy.
Link Posted: 12/9/2004 7:47:45 AM EDT
Well,
What is the purpose of the LLC?
Link Posted: 12/9/2004 9:56:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2004 1:24:36 AM EDT
After we get the final list ,  I would also like to get together will all the parties involved; first to get everything on the same page, and second, to make sure you guys know how an LLC works.  We would also have to come up with a name.
Link Posted: 12/10/2004 8:03:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2004 11:35:22 AM EDT

What is the intended purpose of this LLC?  Are you going to buy one Class 3 item and let each person play with it for 5 minutes a day?  How do you propose to maintain a storage facility with communal access?  Who will be the primary contact person?



I've been researching the possibilities of beginning a corporation of my own in WI for similar reasons.

You do not need to pay a lawyer $800 to fill out one piece of paper and pay the $35 fee.  It is a very simple process.  Not only that, you need not have multiple parties within your organization to make it work.

Link Posted: 12/10/2004 11:54:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Muad_Dib:
What is the intended purpose of this LLC?  Are you going to buy one Class 3 item and let each person play with it for 5 minutes a day?  How do you propose to maintain a storage facility with communal access?  Who will be the primary contact person?



I've been researching the possibilities of beginning a corporation of my own in WI for similar reasons.

You do not need to pay a lawyer $800 to fill out one piece of paper and pay the $35 fee.  It is a very simple process.  Not only that, you need not have multiple parties within your organization to make it work.




In order for the LLC to work as far as getting NFA stuf you have to list who in the LLC can posses them. And no it's basicly I want a suppressor, I pay for it I pay the Transfer tax, it's my supressor, but the LLC owns it to ease the BS you have to jump through to get the NFA stuff.

It's much better to go the lawyer route on this one since we'll be looking at multiple peoplinolved with this, When you use the online corp set up it's cheaper but you loose some things. Will can explain it way better than I. But basicly this is a way for those o us who may not be able to get aCLEO signof for something because the CLEO won't sign for some stupid BS reason.
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 11:13:23 AM EDT
"Who will be primary contact person?"   The lawyer will be.  I find that more separation from direct state contact is better.  I wouldn't like the Dept. of Commerce to just pop in and have a look around at my place, or your place.  NFA items would be paid for by teh individuals deposits into the corp. account.  Said item is the buyers, although technically it's the co.s.  THat's why we have the big trust each other thing.  Another nice thing about the co., is that NFa stuff can be lent or borrowed to other members without having to have the buyer follow you around with his paperwork.
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 2:26:08 PM EDT
So basically, we split the cost ($835 or whatever) equally between whoever wants to get it.  Then when we want to purcahse something we deposit money in the LLC account, then have the LLC purchase the equipment + the $200 transfer fee.  Does the LLC then have to contact the CLEO when purchasing equipment, just like an individual would?

What is the downfall of this?  If one person were to miss use something then everyone would lose there stuff correct?  Is that the trust factor you are talking about?  

What about out-of-state travel?
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 6:18:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 7:27:01 PM EDT
The only downfall would be trust.  If you go shoot someone with the co's can, well, you go to jail, and the company may get the can back.    Since the co. owns all the stuff, no one individual will hurt the co. too badly.  As far as interstate travel, the laws are the same for a privately held NFA item.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:38:14 PM EDT
I"M In If its not to Late.  But I have alot Of questions On the Legal Issues

3 IM SENT

Rob877
Link Posted: 12/13/2004 8:42:43 AM EDT
Will did you hear anything from FMD???
Link Posted: 12/13/2004 2:42:37 PM EDT
Sorry kids, I've been in Indianapolis for the last 3 weeks.

I might be interested in the LLC, but to be honest:

I've already got one. <= Monty Python Impression

If it's a matter of finding contributors, I'm in.  I'd like to do it from the community standpoint, but think the lawyer route is a good thing.
Link Posted: 12/13/2004 3:04:47 PM EDT
OK, what appears to be the final list is in the first post.  I didn't include you in that Kris 'cause you already have one, and contributors in not a problem ( unless you want to seperate your business from your toys).  BTW, included in eeh $800 is the state fee of $135 ( not $35, the $35 is the fee for expedited processing), so it's more like $700 for the separate contact and walkthrough.

If the othere parties in this are going to help with Tattoo's brother's project, we can all discuss the details more intricately.  Otherwise, we'll set something up to get together.
Link Posted: 12/13/2004 5:52:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2004 11:33:04 AM EDT by tattoo]
Link Posted: 12/14/2004 12:10:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterPX:
...I didn't include you in that Kris 'cause you already have one, and contributors in not a problem ( unless you want to seperate your business from your toys)...



Actually, this was one "plus" that I was considering.

Maybe we should get together for breakfast before the Waukesha show this weekend.
Link Posted: 12/15/2004 8:52:31 PM EDT
Well, I'm working until noon on Sat.  I was planning to meet up with you guys at Tat's bro's, but it looks like you'll be long done by the time I get done.  Anyhow, if you guys are still going to be in the area Sat. afternoon, I'd still like to get together.
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 4:13:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterPX:
Well, I'm working until noon on Sat.  I was planning to meet up with you guys at Tat's bro's, but it looks like you'll be long done by the time I get done.  Anyhow, if you guys are still going to be in the area Sat. afternoon, I'd still like to get together.



Long done I dunno about.  You can alsways stop by for a beer sandwich as well.
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 6:20:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 8:37:42 PM EDT
I'll still be swinging by, if for nothing else than to complain about your craftmanship .  Did directions get sent out yet?
Link Posted: 12/16/2004 10:26:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2004 9:14:26 AM EDT
OK, FINAL CALL.  Those who are in for this, IM me your FULL NAME.
Link Posted: 12/20/2004 11:10:06 AM EDT
We spoke about this quite a bit.
I'm tentatively in, but ..........
There are still a few questions to be answered.

First, did you check on the name?
I really want that name.

Second, is the FAFSA stuff.
When I fill out my financial aid forms, I don't want to be forced to disclose that I am part owner of a company who's holdings consist of three machine guns, four suppressors, and a short barreled shotgun.
It just wouldn't go well.

I also want to know the mechanics of how we will be protected from one another.
The wording of "what's yours is yours, and what's mine is mine" makes a difference.
Plus, there was the issue of tax liability since we all want to use the license for different business ventures.
The wording on that will be tricky as well.

I have good faith that everyone will be honorable, but I'm not comfortable with the idea that I may be liable for one sixth of the tax bill if MrPX writes a $200,000 oil contract.

How is the the LLC bank account to be managed?
I think we can set it up so that it takes any two, or any three of us to write a check, but that doesn't bode well for our individual side ventures under the license.


In short, I'm in, but there's still a bunch of shit to work out.
Sending IM with my name.
Link Posted: 12/20/2004 12:10:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Throttle-Junkie:
We spoke about this quite a bit.
I'm tentatively in, but ..........
There are still a few questions to be answered.

First, did you check on the name?
I really want that name....



Available as discussed, although I prefer "Diversified Industries" instead of "Group" (I seem to be the minority).  Venture to provide "Aftermarket Distribution & Sales" in the "primary type of business" field on licence app.

As far as the other stuff, that's for the accountants and lawyers...
Link Posted: 12/20/2004 1:24:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:

Originally Posted By Throttle-Junkie:
We spoke about this quite a bit.
I'm tentatively in, but ..........
There are still a few questions to be answered.

First, did you check on the name?
I really want that name....



Available as discussed, although I prefer "Diversified Industries" instead of "Group" (I seem to be the minority).  Venture to provide "Aftermarket Distribution & Sales" in the "primary type of business" field on licence app.

As far as the other stuff, that's for the accountants and lawyers...



Why not add group at the end??
Link Posted: 12/20/2004 1:31:02 PM EDT
Damn Mark.

You should have been at the weekend ramp-build/spackle-the-planet party.  IM Will for the low-down, as he seems to be coordinating.
Link Posted: 12/20/2004 2:28:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:
Damn Mark.

You should have been at the weekend ramp-build/spackle-the-planet party.  IM Will for the low-down, as he seems to be coordinating.



Between being sick and work it wasn't going to happen. Trust me I'd rather have been there.
Link Posted: 12/20/2004 9:13:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2004 9:33:04 PM EDT by MisterPX]
TJ, I will discuss the FAFSA with the lawyer. As far as individuality, a seperate contract an be drawn up for that.  In case I go wacky and have the co. buy new H2's for everybody, the nice part is that the LLC takes the hit, no indiv. is personally finacially responsible.  As far as a bank account, good accounting, and the honor system come into play.  These are the details that can be finalized after we secure the LLC.  As a "feel good" measure ( maybe I shouldn't use those words ), if anyone is not happy with how the llc is going, I will buy them out of their share.  I don't think this will be an issue, and I was going to start one up by myself anyway.

OK, i have full names from
FMD
TJ
Tattoo
Rob

PM, I can't remember how to spell your surname.

 
Link Posted: 12/20/2004 9:42:07 PM EDT
OK I sent my info
I was wondering with my current job will I still be able to collect Unemployment Insurance Being a Part of a LLC Because I am always getting Layoff notices from my job.

Rob877

P.S
I still have alot of questions  Sorry I havent been able to meet Up with you guys TO discuss this I have Been Busy.

Link Posted: 12/20/2004 9:57:27 PM EDT
If you are not a paid employee of the LLC, there is no conflict.  If the LLC shows a loss, there is no conflict.  If you invent some kind of miracle sex pill under the llc and sell millions, then you got problems.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 1:16:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2004 5:21:37 AM EDT by rugger]
MPX- i sent you an IM to see if there is anymore room available.

Cheers, Rugger
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 1:21:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2004 5:15:52 AM EDT by rugger]
double post. ..gahhh

Tat, do your magic and make this go away if you would.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 4:35:14 AM EDT
MPX IM sent back to ya.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 1:01:52 PM EDT
Can I still get in? Thanks Jared
Link Posted: 12/22/2004 7:02:56 AM EDT
Is there an update available??
Link Posted: 12/22/2004 12:38:00 PM EDT
Email sent to MisterPX
Link Posted: 12/22/2004 12:46:39 PM EDT
Sorry for the delay, I was on a road call to IN yesterday.  Anyhow, this is who I have info for:


FMD
Tattoo
TJ
PM
Rob<­BR>Rugg

I have been trying to get to see the lawyer but my work schedule's been possesive this week, please be patient.

Link Posted: 12/22/2004 7:27:57 PM EDT
Can a person buy in after the LLC is formed?
Link Posted: 12/22/2004 7:41:27 PM EDT
Yes, but not only would they have to pony up a share of the original incorporation fee, they'd have to pay for refiling the paperwork with the state.
Link Posted: 12/22/2004 8:18:32 PM EDT
IM's have been sent out requesting info.  I need FULL name, and address.  
Link Posted: 12/23/2004 2:32:47 AM EDT
Im back
Link Posted: 12/23/2004 4:25:41 AM EDT
Replied.
Link Posted: 12/23/2004 5:13:06 AM EDT
This is great idea.  I have a couple questions.

#1 concern is getting my Krink SBR'd.  Will we have to transfer the guns under the LLC?

#2 If one of the 'owners' goes wacky and holds up a bank with one of 'our' holdings - How does that impact the rest of the owners?

#3 What is the yearly costs of an LLC?

#4 Do we / Should we be insured?  Someone is out on the range and 'accidently' shoots someone in the leg.  It's later found out 10 owners of this LLC technically owns the gun?  Of Course they are going to sue us.






Link Posted: 12/23/2004 8:50:11 AM EDT
Travis, just got your EM today.  Maybe you should have mailed it with a stamp?

Anyways, to answer your questions, the SBR will belong to the LLC.  I someone goes wacky as an individual, then they get busted by themselves.  The LLC can claim the said weapon was stolen/ taken without permission, and try for recovery, but that'd get tricky in court. Most likely, guy goes to jail, his weapon gets destroyed.  Annual cost after formation is under $200 a year.  THe best part of an LLC answers your last question. Limited Liability Corp., you can sue only the corp., the individuals are shielded.  

 
Waiting on fullname and addy. from :  Tattoo
                                                             Travis (deadline will be when I get info from Tattoo)
Link Posted: 12/23/2004 8:53:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2004 8:58:05 AM EDT by FMD]

Originally Posted By TravisAasen:
This is great idea.  I have a couple questions.



Excellent questions. I'll try and take these one-by-one:



#1 concern is getting my Krink SBR'd.  Will we have to transfer the guns under the LLC?



The LLC files the Form 1 (MAKING - no transfer in this case) for you to cut the barrel of your Krink, and pays the $200 Tax with your "contribution".  When the company gains BATFE approval, you engrave the receiver with the Name, State, and Serial# of manufacture, THEN you can cut the barrel.

While the LLC is now the owner of said serial numbered receiver, the fact that it was your "contribution" to the LLC renders this a bit of a moot point.  You paid the tax, and contributed the weapon.  The weapon remains in your posession.  As you are a member of the LLC, there is no transfer.

A Form 4 (TRANSFER) of an exsisting SBR/MG/AOW/DD would be handled by an individual "contributing" boith the transfer tax and any money required for purchase.  That individual would also likely be the person to pick up the item from the C3 dealer (on behalf of the LLC, of course ).

Again, as a member of the LLC, there would be no transfer required for you to be in posession of the item that you contributed the money for.

IF the LLC disolves, or if an individual decides to leave, THEN there would need to be a legitimate transfer to another corp or individual (Membership notwithstanding), and require a new $200 tax stamp...that's the down-side to the LLC.  They are not perpetual (required by law to have an expiration date), and an individual owner quitting or doing something stupid (see answers below) can throw a wrench into the whole works.



#2 If one of the 'owners' goes wacky and holds up a bank with one of 'our' holdings - How does that impact the rest of the owners?



This is why it is called a "Limited Liability Company". Typically there will be a "hold harmless and indemnify" clause in the LLC's filing papers/ agreement; i.e.  an individual member is NOT responsible for another member's (or the company's) illeagal actions.

I, for one, would like very much to see every member with an OOS CCW.  It guarantees a certian amount of pre-qualification.

Also, as the contributions to the LLC come from individual members, if MrPx decides to invest his money in a pyramid scheme, he's the dope who loses his money.  The rest of our assets should be just fine, as long as a conter-signed check is required for any company transaction.



#3 What is the yearly costs of an LLC?



That kind of depends on how it's set up.  If it's a "pass-through" LLC, the company is taxed as a partnership, and you don't have to file annual reports.  In that case, the yearly cost is limited to how much the registered agent (in our case a lawyer) charges per yer, and what an accountant would charge for making sure everyone was on the up-and-up as far as taxes go.  Figure for $100 ea annually, for a total of $200/year company cost.  You'll also have to figure in the monthly cost of banking and a safe-deposit box (a deal-breaker when it comes to BATFE paperwork).

Things get hairier when an LLC is taxed a a corporation, as you are then required to file annual reports and you are taxed collectively rather than individually, but that's not what we're considering.



#4 Do we / Should we be insured?  Someone is out on the range and 'accidently' shoots someone in the leg.  It's later found out 10 owners of this LLC technically owns the gun?  Of Course they are going to sue us.



Yes, and YES.  This would be another deal beaker for me.

While the company could be sued for negligence, the individual owners' personal property is specifically exempted from forfieture under an LLC agreement.  I can try to come up with some costs for insurance, but a $1M prop/casualty limit should protect the company assets contributed to the company by the individual Members.

Hope that answers your questions.

Will, please make notes:  Pre-qualification background checks, and the additional costs of banking, safe-deposit boxes, and required.

-FMD
Link Posted: 12/23/2004 9:00:20 AM EDT
FMD.

You and I are on the same page with the deal breakers.

Travis
 
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