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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/31/2005 5:05:01 AM EDT
Watching the news, and seeing the looting, prison riots, lack of fresh water food, and sewage systems,
I was wondering if this is what some may imagine as a shtf scenario.
We will probably not have this kind of flood that covers 80% of a large metroplolitan area, but would you be prepared for this kind of chaos?
What if there was no clean water?
No food?
The local prison let loose all it prisoners?
No law?
I would certainly say that New Orleans is certainly a shtf scenario, and good people who have not prepared will pay, and bad people will profit.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:38:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 5:42:11 AM EDT by HalfMoon]

Originally Posted By colossians323:
Watching the news, and seeing the looting, prison riots, lack of fresh water food, and sewage systems,
I was wondering if this is what some may imagine as a shtf scenario.



To some degree, yeah, there's been some S. hitting the F.



We will probably not have this kind of flood that covers 80% of a large metroplolitan area, but would you be prepared for this kind of chaos?
What if there was no clean water?



Being a homebrewer / mead maker, I keep a rotating stock of ~30 gallons of bottled spring water on hand, along with ~25 gallons of R.O. water I have bottled up. (usually 50-60 gallons of beer kegged and right now I have 20 gallons of mead that is ready to drink. )



No food?
The local prison let loose all it prisoners?
No law?



Food: Got a decent supply of packaged food that would be fine, would probably get tired of it fast, but oh well.. Enough Brisket and pork shoulder that has been cooked, vaccuum sealed and frozen in single and double portions to to feed 5-6 people for a week, or if no electricity, the 2 days or so it would be good. If BBQ is possible, I have I think 10 more of these right now frozen and vaccuum sealed as well:



Prison: That's why I have my ARs, M1A, and handguns. All my friends that keep telling me I don't need 8000+ rounds of ammo would be changing their mind about now...

Law: I rarely need them anyway where I live, and in that situation, "I AM THE LAW.."

Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:48:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 9:27:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:
California doesn't "do" huricanes and earthquakes can't do that much damage across that wide of an area nor that often.



What about tsunamis? Wasn't there a TV movie not too long ago that had L.A. wiped out by an earthquake and tsunami? If it was on TV, it's GOT to be accurate, right?

Link Posted: 8/31/2005 11:48:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:
California doesn't "do" huricanes and earthquakes can't do that much damage across that wide of an area nor that often.


I don't know, I think a big huge 8.7+ earthquake centered close to a metro area would send everything into chaos if all power was out, buildings destroyed, water mains broken, gas lines broken, etc. Looting would be absolutely nuts (don't even need an earthquake for that one). Even worse, we'd have no warning about it to leave the area, prepare, or even be home at the time it happens.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 12:14:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 12:20:15 PM EDT by dragunov]
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 12:49:06 PM EDT
*runs off to stock up on fresh water and MREs*
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 3:13:44 PM EDT
The looters in NO are all inner-city opportunists, no different than what happened during the King riots. If some kind of natural disaster were to strike SoCal, the looting and pillaging would take place in places like LA, Santa Ana, Riverside, San Bernardino, Compton, Bell, Huntington Park, and so on.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 4:47:12 PM EDT
you loot, i shoot!!!!! remember the korean shop keepers during the king riots?? they did it right. they protected themselves. rkba all the way!!!!!
fnc80 , dont know if ya heard the lil discussion we had at bill's class. how even in non-emergency situations . a 911 call would take 2-3 hrs and sometimes the next day!!!! not cop bashing but real life. my 911 call is for my m4gery. that's it . bottom line.

meat
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:15:57 PM EDT
I was thinking the same thing about prepardness in general. Some of those degenerates and their fat children screaming at guardsmen and rescuers that were trying to feed them reminded me that those truly prepared LEFT ALREADY.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:17:25 PM EDT
I'M READY BRING IT ON!!!
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:21:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HalfMoon:

Originally Posted By colossians323:
Watching the news, and seeing the looting, prison riots, lack of fresh water food, and sewage systems,
I was wondering if this is what some may imagine as a shtf scenario.



To some degree, yeah, there's been some S. hitting the F.



We will probably not have this kind of flood that covers 80% of a large metroplolitan area, but would you be prepared for this kind of chaos?
What if there was no clean water?



Being a homebrewer / mead maker, I keep a rotating stock of ~30 gallons of bottled spring water on hand, along with ~25 gallons of R.O. water I have bottled up. (usually 50-60 gallons of beer kegged and right now I have 20 gallons of mead that is ready to drink. )



No food?
The local prison let loose all it prisoners?
No law?



Food: Got a decent supply of packaged food that would be fine, would probably get tired of it fast, but oh well.. Enough Brisket and pork shoulder that has been cooked, vaccuum sealed and frozen in single and double portions to to feed 5-6 people for a week, or if no electricity, the 2 days or so it would be good. If BBQ is possible, I have I think 10 more of these right now frozen and vaccuum sealed as well:

picturesbytony.com/bbq/RibSteak/images/2_WeighingIn.jpg

Prison: That's why I have my ARs, M1A, and handguns. All my friends that keep telling me I don't need 8000+ rounds of ammo would be changing their mind about now...

Law: I rarely need them anyway where I live, and in that situation, "I AM THE LAW.."




half monn. i dont beleive i gave you permission to post a pic of me......
ummmmmmmmmmmm , red meat..................ummmmmmmmmmm . is that a ribeye i see????
droooling already.


meat
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 8:00:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 8:02:00 PM EDT by NeoWeird]
I think a lot of you are thinking too 'catastrophic' when it comes to disasters, and I'm sorry, but labeling looters as "opportunists" is like calling gangbangers neighborhood friends. Looters are flat out scum of the earth who, in this case, are taking advantage of people who have already gone through probably the worst experience of their lives. They are no different then someone who grave robs or steals from non-profit orginaztions. I'm not trying to slam you, but that phrasing really rubbed me the wrong way.

Back to my point, it wouldn't take some psuedo-end of the west coast disaster to have a situation where self-law would take over. Hell, all it would take is power to go out for a few hours; and that is the God's honest truth. The looters in the south east are looting for two main reasons:

1. No electrity
2. No easy way to respond

Cops can't get the calls due to lack of electricty, and even if they did, they couldn't drive there because it's flooded. Now if we were to lose power on a larger scale then we already do (because of the elctric company's greed most of the time) people turned to looting/rioting, there would be nothing in the riot area could do if they weren't prepared. Not to mention if someone is going to go that far into 'chaos' for money, then it won't mater if you are in their way. Hell, they would probably rape the women before/after killing them. It's the sad truth.

Now don't get me wrong, some of the people down south NEED food and water, and it is one to take items like that, but I saw several news stations showing several clips of people going into appliance stores and loading up their entire car with stereos, dvd players, etc and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do.

Bottom line is: When an intruder comes to me, foreign or domestic, I am going to be ready to throw down, guns or not, because no one is going to harm my family.

ETA: One more thing, it's not even te cops that scare the looters, but the alarams in the stores they go after. Flooded or not, once the electricty went out in the south, Looting was going to happen.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 12:57:39 AM EDT
neowierds right, looting WILL always happen. out of all the people in this country how many do you think are GOOD people and that you can always invite over for dinner or trust to stand by ur side in a shft scenario?......if the power goes out everywhere for more than a few days the Looting will appear everywhere.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 7:49:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 7:53:18 AM EDT by FNC80]
You're hanging around the wrong crowd, if you think there aren't as many good people around. It's pretty simple...the percentage of "good" people in the inner cities would be inversely proportional to the percentage of "good" people in the suburbs.

I disagree that looting will take place everywhere. What you're seeing happening in NO is typical media BS...lootingTV 24/7 because that's what sells advertising.

I don't see any footage of looting in the nicer suburbs. I don't see soccer moms breaking the windows of the local Piggly Wiggly and carting out diapers and formula. I don't see Mr. soccer mom looting the Home Depot for the latest Honda lawnmower.

Link Posted: 9/1/2005 8:44:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FNC80:
You're hanging around the wrong crowd, if you think there aren't as many good people around. It's pretty simple...the percentage of "good" people in the inner cities would be inversely proportional to the percentage of "good" people in the suburbs.



That is pretty simple. How did you derive that formula? Why would they be inversely proportional? I'm really curious as to the science and math behind this revelation.

Link Posted: 9/1/2005 8:54:04 AM EDT
I'm not good at math, so I'll give you an experiment.

It's Saturday night at 11:00. Get in your car, drive to Laguna Niguel. Get out and walk around for a couple hours.

Next Saturday, same time, go for a stroll in South Central.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 10:23:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FNC80:
I'm not good at math, so I'll give you an experiment.

It's Saturday night at 11:00. Get in your car, drive to Laguna Niguel. Get out and walk around for a couple hours.

Next Saturday, same time, go for a stroll in South Central.



Wow, if that isn't a rigorous application of the Scientific Method to prove your theory of inverse proportionality, I don't know what is.

I was hoping maybe you would explain how the two different areas were linked by that inverse proportionality. For example, when the number of good people in the suburbs increase, why does that mean that the number of good people in the urban area must decrease according to your inverse proportionality?

And if all the people in the suburbs were good, would that mean that everyone in the urban areas would be not good?

I think your inverse proportionality is a fascinating scientific theorem. Don't be coy, share your insight with us.



Link Posted: 9/1/2005 10:58:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 11:12:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 12:14:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zapp:
Wow, if that isn't a rigorous application of the Scientific Method to prove your theory of inverse proportionality, I don't know what is.



Appreciate the kind words. Have a nice day.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 1:06:36 PM EDT
Didn't that already happen?

Charlton Heston was there right? "What about tsunamis? Wasn't there a TV movie not too long ago that had L.A. wiped out by an earthquake and tsunami? If it was on TV, it's GOT to be accurate, right? "
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 1:31:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:
There is a difference between inter-urban people's lives and those outside the inner cities. The differences are broad: education, voting, literacy, drug abuse, criminal record, their belief in the role of government, gun rights, taxes ... yet, they're all Americans, good or bad, and deserve our help and a hand up - I just tired of the poor effort of the government to give hand outs hoping that somehow money makes things better. In the very short run yes ... in the long run no.



I completely agree about the differences between the lives of the inner city poor, and the stereotypical suburban, and I also agree that things like hand outs generally are a bad idea.
But to suggest some sort of mathematical relationship between the percentage of "good" people in the inner cities to suburbs sounds silly.

Link Posted: 9/1/2005 1:45:38 PM EDT
in kali, there is no early evac warning for an earthquake. let alone trying to "bug out" is next to impossible here in socal. traffic is bad enough without a disaster happening. so what ya think is gonna happen???



meat
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 2:04:04 PM EDT
New Orleans is almost TEOTWAWKI.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 2:52:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zapp:

Originally Posted By Paul:
California doesn't "do" huricanes and earthquakes can't do that much damage across that wide of an area nor that often.



What about tsunamis? Wasn't there a TV movie not too long ago that had L.A. wiped out by an earthquake and tsunami? If it was on TV, it's GOT to be accurate, right?



In March 1964 a tsunami did millions of dollars of damage and killed eleven people in California
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:50:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By meateater:
in kali, there is no early evac warning for an earthquake. let alone trying to "bug out" is next to impossible here in socal. traffic is bad enough without a disaster happening. so what ya think is gonna happen???



meat



BINGO!!!! with how bad the prk's traffic is on a normal day....how much worst would it be if a shft was to happen.....road rage anyone+dead moving traffic=riots=killings=SHFT multiply by 1000. you'd have to be filthy rich to be able to escape a natural diseaster like in orleans.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 10:07:38 PM EDT
For about 10% of NO it was TEOTWATKI. 70% SHTF, 10% got out and didn't lose anything.

We don't need an earthquake to drop closely to SHTF depending on where you are. Say for example you are at work and your home and family are 30+ miles away or so and we have a massive power outage. How about taking Imperial Highway past Nickerson Gardens bacause the 105 is locked up tighter than a drum. Wrong side of any of the Bay Area bridges??

An earthquake would only make things worse for those outside the immediate area. Probably lose water, electricity and gas for a few days, and maybe only intermittantly. The first challenge is going to be movement, rush hour is bad enough ona daily basis, add signals not working, soccer moms panicking, arfcom members shooting anything that moves. And the nicety of a freeway bridge down, just 1 almost anyplace on the system, wanna talk gridlock? I had barricades knocked out of my hand when I was helping the local PD try to close off the Pasadena Fwy in the 71 EQ, the York Bridge was showing great big cracks and until it was determined that it was cosmetic cracking. People panicking trying to get to work. WTF? it's an EQ you can take a day off, nobody else is getting there either.

Telephones of all ilk won't be reliable just from overloads cuz Momma is calling all the kids to ask if they felt it, etc.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 10:18:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 10:22:14 PM EDT by NeoWeird]
Not to take from the topic, but there has been alot of "this is what would happen" talk, but I have only seen a handful of people with "this is what I would do" plans, Paul being one of the most thorough.

So what would you all do in a SHTF scenario? Say an Earthquake, once it's over it's over and as long as your home isn't damaged you are ok if you have supplies inside. Home is no longer livable, your vehicle makes a nice defense to the elements, but is the last thing you want to rely on. It seems like camping gear/equipment would be a good bet, but where do you store it? Can't exactly keep it in the house, because the reason you have it is if the house is gone. Storing it in the car is risky since with Earthquakes going by car would be hell. So what do you do?

Head for the hills and find a place to fortify? What about looters? You can't just shoot every looter that comes your way. Put up a sign that warns people you are armed and serious?

I'm young and with no experience or training. What exactly SHOULD you do in a SHTF scenario?

ETA: Obviously the first thing to do is find a sourse of water, then set up some sort of shelter/camp and scout for food. Being armed is always best, and you should never go alone if it can be avoided. But after that, then what? What do you do for the long run? Wait it out once you find a place that can sustain you? Head to the nearest non-destroyed and friendly place you know?
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 12:36:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:
Not to take from the topic, but there has been alot of "this is what would happen" talk, but I have only seen a handful of people with "this is what I would do" plans, Paul being one of the most thorough.

So what would you all do in a SHTF scenario? Say an Earthquake, once it's over it's over and as long as your home isn't damaged you are ok if you have supplies inside. Home is no longer livable, your vehicle makes a nice defense to the elements, but is the last thing you want to rely on. It seems like camping gear/equipment would be a good bet, but where do you store it? Can't exactly keep it in the house, because the reason you have it is if the house is gone. Storing it in the car is risky since with Earthquakes going by car would be hell. So what do you do?

Head for the hills and find a place to fortify? What about looters? You can't just shoot every looter that comes your way. Put up a sign that warns people you are armed and serious?

I'm young and with no experience or training. What exactly SHOULD you do in a SHTF scenario?

ETA: Obviously the first thing to do is find a sourse of water, then set up some sort of shelter/camp and scout for food. Being armed is always best, and you should never go alone if it can be avoided. But after that, then what? What do you do for the long run? Wait it out once you find a place that can sustain you? Head to the nearest non-destroyed and friendly place you know?



Gee, we've gone from worrying about neighbors and the price of chicken feed to worrying about the EOTWAWKI. Long jump, Neoweird!

The probability is that movement will be next to impossible if we have a huge earthquake. Putting aside the fact that the roads are likely to be impassable due to collapsed overpasses, etc., earthquakes = fire and fire precludes movement to the mountains or "hills" as folks call it. You will NOT want to be driving into forested areas if there are forest fires or even the possibility of forest fires. Since disasters let loose every nutcase in the world, some idiot will invariably decide this is a great time to make everything worse by deliberately setting fires (even if they haven't started due to earthquake damage). As we have seen from NO, even in a city inundated with water, some fool is going to set a fire just because they can.

Which leaves staying in place. You are familiar with your home terrain, which adds an element of physical security and psychological security. LAY LOW. Putting up signs that you are armed and willing to use deadly force implies you have things worth protecting and therefore worth stealing, which will only draw unwanted attention. If you have to use deadly force to protect your life or the lives of your family member, then you would be justified in doing so. Whether or not property protection would be acceptable in emergency conditions remains to be seen, but you don't want to be a test case in criminal court, so the less likelihood you have of having to shoot someone, the better. A jury may not see things the way you do at the time of the event, so being prudent in the use of force is the better part of valor.

Not everything is going to be destroyed, assuming that you have planned properly. Do NOT store all of your supplies in one location - certainly not all in the house. We have supplies in a detached garage as well as the house, and in the trunks of both cars. The cars hold only enough for 3-4 days, but that should be enough to get us back to the house, garage, yard, where more items are stored. I was thinking about putting a truck toolbox in the yard and filling it with water, MREs and medical supplies, as well as space blankets, tent, etc., in case fire destroys our house and garage. Naturally, no matter what happens, do not be surprised if all your plans don't work and you loose all your back-up supplies, which is why it makes sense to carry at least some items in the car. If everything goes to heck, don't get upset. Nothing is going to go as one plans, since Murphy will be in charge. Accept it and move on.

Don't forget to store / pack tools. Tools for shutting off water and gas mains at your residence or business are essential, as are basics like screwdrivers, hammer, saws, wrenches, and various other items necessary to make repairs to damaged structures or vehicles. We have tool kits in each car.

For the home, it's nice to have a Freeplay wind-up radio (with shortwave channels) and Freeplay wind-up flashlight/lantern

Water is always the key to survival. Bottled water (in 5 gallon polycarbonate bottles with at least two hand pumps, plus store-bought bottled water in 0.5-1 liter bottles) is essential. We keep at least 20 gallons on hand at all times.
Also, get a quality mountaineering water filter to tide you over once your bottled water supply runs low.
If we have power (and we do, because of our generator), we can also run our dehumidifiers, which will give us about 10 gallons a day - enough to meet our needs. Fuel is going to be a problem though, because I cannot store enough to run the generator for more than 5-6 days. Fortunately, there is a gas station 4 blocks away, and 3 more within a 14 block radius.

For the cars, we have the following:
Bottled water
MREs
MRE heaters & those funny little British stoves powered by fuel tabs.
Windproof lighter and windproof matches.
Surefire 6P flashlight, spare batteries and bulbs.
Medical supplies (including elastic bandages, EMT bandage scissors, tweezers, water-based bandages for treating burns and inflatable splints for fractures).
Signal mirror (wouldn't the folks on roofs in NO liked to have those).
Compass (for the car kits).
Whistle.
Toilet paper.
Paper towels.
Latex gloves.
Baby wipes (worked great for troops in Iraq when no water was available).
Feminine products (maxi pads can also be used for compresses)
Waterless soap.
Duct tape.
Several zip-lock plastic bags (freezer bags, since they are more durable)
Parachute cord.
Cell phone (with spare battery), travel charger and car charger
Solar panel (to charge cell phone).
300 watt (or better) power inverter
Bolt cutters (to cut through chain link fences & locks)
Binoculars
Comfortable walking shoes, spare socks, underwear, T-shirt, shorts, pants, Boonie hat
Spare eyeglasses and/or sunglasses
Nomex flight suit, Nomex gloves, Nomex balaclava (in case you are in an area where fire is a danger).
Fire extinguisher (charged and checked)
Backpack to haul all of the above (except the fire extinguishers, which stay with structures and cars)

For personal security, our suggested options are:
Primary long arm (CAR-15 or Remington/Ithaca pump shotgun) with sling (I prefer the single-point Specter MOUT), optical sight (Aimpoint M2), Surefire Weaponlight, spare batteries, soft-sided case, 4-6 loaded magazines & ammunition (spare parts are nice to have too). Leave the Springfield M1A at home, unless you're in a rural area, in which the increased range of a .308 may make sense. It doesn't in an urban environment for self-defense (as opposed to offensive operations, which you are NOT going to be engaged in).
Sidearm (SIG P220), Surefire Weaponlight, CTC Lasergrip, good quality holster (Eagle, Blackhawk, Bianchi, Safariland or SOE), pistol belt, magazine carriers, at least 2 loaded spare factory magazines
Folding single-edged knife (better yet, carry two - one on each side)(personal preference, but get something that you're comfortable using for everyday tasks - a Randall fighting knife does not fall into this category)
OC spray (and alcohol-based spray antidote in case you OC yourself or someone else does it to you)
S&W or Hiatts handcuffs and extra Flex-cuffs (in case you need to detain an looter or intruder)
Handcuff keys (plural - trust me, you'll lose at least one).
Ballistic vest (at least a Level IIA, and preferaby a Level IIIA with an insert to protect against blunt trauma - Level IV isn't necessary unless you plan to engage in firefights with intruders armed with .30-06 caliber arms or 12 gauge slugs, which you would never be doing if you have half a brain).
Goggles (military surplus with laser lenses or Bolle or ESS goggles work well - my Bolles have prescription inserts) do deal with dust and smoke from fires that will inevitably occur in a major earthquake.
Gas mask with spare canisters (not for dealing with CBRN threats, but rather for dealing with the smoke from all of the fires and possibly chemical fumes)
If you have money to burn, night vision goggles, preferably AN/PVS-7D Gen III or AN/PVS-14 Gen III, and IT&T Thermal goggles for the evenings, since the lights will be out. I suggest Gen III to avoid flare from the fires that may be burning. Thermal is great, but extremely expensive.

And of course, LOTS OF CASH - credit cards won't work and no one will be taking checks.

Have I forgetten anything?

Link Posted: 9/5/2005 1:49:13 AM EDT
I am like a sponge when it comes to knowledge. I am sure some of you have noticed that once I set my mind on something, I quickly accumulate as much knowledge on the subject as rapidly as I can.

So first of, thanks for the great post. Some of that is common sense, but some of it I would have never even thought about like the tools to shut off gas and water. Why wouldn't you want those? A line breaks and your house starts to flood, or worse....

Second, I was under the impression that any type of modern armor was basically illegal to purchase in California. Is it only certain types (ie; Flak Jackets ok, but not 'bullet-proff' vests)?

Third, what about burrying a box with supplies? That would eliminate the need for storage space and it would prevent theft, missplacing it, etc. For example, under the rose bed in the back yard.

Fourth, Would zip-ties be more practical than handcuffs? You wouldn't need a key then, and they could be used for other applications, like splints if case of broken limbs. I know it might not be much, but dropping a pound of handcuffs means a pound of food or water that you can replace it with.

As always, great info nfalawyer.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 5:07:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nfalawyer:
Gee, we've gone from worrying about neighbors and the price of chicken feed to worrying about the EOTWAWKI. Long jump, Neoweird!

The probability is that movement will be next to impossible if we have a huge earthquake. Putting aside the fact that the roads are likely to be impassable due to collapsed overpasses, etc., earthquakes = fire and fire precludes movement to the mountains or "hills" as folks call it. You will NOT want to be driving into forested areas if there are forest fires or even the possibility of forest fires. Since disasters let loose every nutcase in the world, some idiot will invariably decide this is a great time to make everything worse by deliberately setting fires (even if they haven't started due to earthquake damage). As we have seen from NO, even in a city inundated with water, some fool is going to set a fire just because they can.

Which leaves staying in place. You are familiar with your home terrain, which adds an element of physical security and psychological security. LAY LOW. Putting up signs that you are armed and willing to use deadly force implies you have things worth protecting and therefore worth stealing, which will only draw unwanted attention. If you have to use deadly force to protect your life or the lives of your family member, then you would be justified in doing so. Whether or not property protection would be acceptable in emergency conditions remains to be seen, but you don't want to be a test case in criminal court, so the less likelihood you have of having to shoot someone, the better. A jury may not see things the way you do at the time of the event, so being prudent in the use of force is the better part of valor.

Not everything is going to be destroyed, assuming that you have planned properly. Do NOT store all of your supplies in one location - certainly not all in the house. We have supplies in a detached garage as well as the house, and in the trunks of both cars. The cars hold only enough for 3-4 days, but that should be enough to get us back to the house, garage, yard, where more items are stored. I was thinking about putting a truck toolbox in the yard and filling it with water, MREs and medical supplies, as well as space blankets, tent, etc., in case fire destroys our house and garage. Naturally, no matter what happens, do not be surprised if all your plans don't work and you loose all your back-up supplies, which is why it makes sense to carry at least some items in the car. If everything goes to heck, don't get upset. Nothing is going to go as one plans, since Murphy will be in charge. Accept it and move on.

Don't forget to store / pack tools. Tools for shutting off water and gas mains at your residence or business are essential, as are basics like screwdrivers, hammer, saws, wrenches, and various other items necessary to make repairs to damaged structures or vehicles. We have tool kits in each car.

For the home, it's nice to have a Freeplay wind-up radio (with shortwave channels) and Freeplay wind-up flashlight/lantern

Water is always the key to survival. Bottled water (in 5 gallon polycarbonate bottles with at least two hand pumps, plus store-bought bottled water in 0.5-1 liter bottles) is essential. We keep at least 20 gallons on hand at all times.
Also, get a quality mountaineering water filter to tide you over once your bottled water supply runs low.
If we have power (and we do, because of our generator), we can also run our dehumidifiers, which will give us about 10 gallons a day - enough to meet our needs. Fuel is going to be a problem though, because I cannot store enough to run the generator for more than 5-6 days. Fortunately, there is a gas station 4 blocks away, and 3 more within a 14 block radius.

For the cars, we have the following:
Bottled water
MREs
MRE heaters & those funny little British stoves powered by fuel tabs.
Windproof lighter and windproof matches.
Surefire 6P flashlight, spare batteries and bulbs.
Medical supplies (including elastic bandages, EMT bandage scissors, tweezers, water-based bandages for treating burns and inflatable splints for fractures).
Signal mirror (wouldn't the folks on roofs in NO liked to have those).
Compass (for the car kits).
Whistle.
Toilet paper.
Paper towels.
Latex gloves.
Baby wipes (worked great for troops in Iraq when no water was available).
Feminine products (maxi pads can also be used for compresses)
Waterless soap.
Duct tape.
Several zip-lock plastic bags (freezer bags, since they are more durable)
Parachute cord.
Cell phone (with spare battery), travel charger and car charger
Solar panel (to charge cell phone).
300 watt (or better) power inverter
Bolt cutters (to cut through chain link fences & locks)
Binoculars
Comfortable walking shoes, spare socks, underwear, T-shirt, shorts, pants, Boonie hat
Spare eyeglasses and/or sunglasses
Nomex flight suit, Nomex gloves, Nomex balaclava (in case you are in an area where fire is a danger).
Fire extinguisher (charged and checked)
Backpack to haul all of the above (except the fire extinguishers, which stay with structures and cars)

For personal security, our suggested options are:
Primary long arm (CAR-15 or Remington/Ithaca pump shotgun) with sling (I prefer the single-point Specter MOUT), optical sight (Aimpoint M2), Surefire Weaponlight, spare batteries, soft-sided case, 4-6 loaded magazines & ammunition (spare parts are nice to have too). Leave the Springfield M1A at home, unless you're in a rural area, in which the increased range of a .308 may make sense. It doesn't in an urban environment for self-defense (as opposed to offensive operations, which you are NOT going to be engaged in).
Sidearm (SIG P220), Surefire Weaponlight, CTC Lasergrip, good quality holster (Eagle, Blackhawk, Bianchi, Safariland or SOE), pistol belt, magazine carriers, at least 2 loaded spare factory magazines
Folding single-edged knife (better yet, carry two - one on each side)(personal preference, but get something that you're comfortable using for everyday tasks - a Randall fighting knife does not fall into this category)
OC spray (and alcohol-based spray antidote in case you OC yourself or someone else does it to you)
S&W or Hiatts handcuffs and extra Flex-cuffs (in case you need to detain an looter or intruder)
Handcuff keys (plural - trust me, you'll lose at least one).
Ballistic vest (at least a Level IIA, and preferaby a Level IIIA with an insert to protect against blunt trauma - Level IV isn't necessary unless you plan to engage in firefights with intruders armed with .30-06 caliber arms or 12 gauge slugs, which you would never be doing if you have half a brain).
Goggles (military surplus with laser lenses or Bolle or ESS goggles work well - my Bolles have prescription inserts) do deal with dust and smoke from fires that will inevitably occur in a major earthquake.
Gas mask with spare canisters (not for dealing with CBRN threats, but rather for dealing with the smoke from all of the fires and possibly chemical fumes)
If you have money to burn, night vision goggles, preferably AN/PVS-7D Gen III or AN/PVS-14 Gen III, and IT&T Thermal goggles for the evenings, since the lights will be out. I suggest Gen III to avoid flare from the fires that may be burning. Thermal is great, but extremely expensive.

And of course, LOTS OF CASH - credit cards won't work and no one will be taking checks.

Have I forgetten anything?



Wow. You are definately prepared. Nice to see someone is thinking about survival with more than just having a gun. My set up and plan is very similar to yours although I do not have the vehicles outfitted with as much as you do. I am going to re-visit this now because it makes sense. If I'm not home when the big one hits, my first priority will be to get home to my family and having a similar set-up to yours increases my chances of success. My wife thought that I was crazy during the San Diego fire storms in 2003 when I moved a gas mask and other supplies into my commuter vehicle for my drive to work from Temecula to Vista. My thoughts were like yours because I feared that if the smoke got bad enough, I would be overcome by the smoke and not be able to get out of the area. I just increased the amount of 1 liter bottles stored in the garage by adding another 20 gallons on Friday. After watching the news and seeing how long the response was to get help to NO, my concerns that we would be on our own for a bit were validated. Especially if you figure that after a large California earthquake in the Los Angeles area which would cause the largest disruption for me in Riverside county, resources and emergency responses will probably heading north and smaller areas like mine will be last to get assistance.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 8:28:24 PM EDT
Here's what I would be doing.

members.aol.com/emcom4hosp/

We have a pre-signed agreement with the host hospitals to subsist the operators and families. I also have better than the recommended minimum SoCal earthquake supplies of water, food, sanitary supplies. I have a shut-off on the gas. Our family goes tent camping several times a year and that gives all of us a working familiarity with the materials we need to survive un-assisted. Stoves, sleeping bags, tents, lanterns, radios, setting things up. Although not currently active, we used to participate in Cowboy Action Shooting so we all have some minimal familiarity with what could be called 3 gun shooting. Rifles, pistols and shotguns.

In other words we are independently capable for at least a week.

If you live in SoCal, in the event of a major disaster you can count on not having phones, electricity, and water for up to a week. And forget traveling..

Go from there.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 9:11:41 PM EDT
BTW, if you have read my pontifications here and maybe elsewhere, many of you and others may have come to the conclusion that I am extremely moderate and not prone to violence. In fact I have been called a gay liberal on more than one occasion because of my defense of the less fortunate or a variety of minorities... I am an officer and a gentleman, it is my duty as a gentleman to be protective of the less fortunate. Shall we say a cavalier attitude. In other words drawing down and shooting a bum that approaches asking for quarters is not in my book in regular daily affairs.

However, since we are talking about a real SHTF, where we are talking about a bygawd kill or be killed protect my family (and I would suggest that a neighborhood "tribe" is not a bad idea, pooling resources, cooking facilities, sharing watchstanding, etc.) I see that the discussion has included handcuffs or quickcuffs or tie-ties. WTF OVER!!!

If it is really a SHTF then I will not be arresting anyone. That isn't my job, I doubt I will be worried about looters in the shops. If somebody deserves arresting and the cops aren't there I will let him go or disable him. Unfortunately, it can be proven in a court of law that I know that once I take a prisoner I become responsible for his/her wellbeing. Not going to happen. If I can't let him go I will kill him or give him a nasty wound in the lower extremities. So he won't be a problem for me. IF he is a kid I'll scare the shit out of him. IF he is old enough to know better and persists in attacking, I kill him. This arresting is not my worry. Now if they are a valid need help older person or woman with kids, I'll help. But it will be on my terms ONLY.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:17:09 AM EDT
Barring a nuclear detonation over Orange County, I think the biggest problem is trying to get home from work, if the disaster occurs during working hours. NRA Lawyer must have a pretty big trunk to store all those things in the vehicles!

My wife and I sat down to develop a plan; the only, perhaps bad, assumption, is that the home will be relatively intact after the disaster.

We tried to work out communications, predetermined evacuation points if we are separated (including evacuating to Las Vegas somehow if the left coast disappears), and what to do with the kids and grandparents. Water, food, medicine and fuel would last about 5 days.

As a family, we've humped miles through rainforests in over 100 degree temps with limited supplies, but throw in the looting and carnage that may happen as well as the disruption to the road system... I'm not sure I'll be able to make it home by car.

I guess I'll need to be prepared to hump 20 miles with essential gear to hook up with the wife at her work then to home. I'm contemplating storing the blackhawk gear and some other stuff in the SUV. But how do explain all the gear to the valets at Ruth's Chris?


Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:46:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JWC6:
Barring a nuclear detonation over Orange County, I think the biggest problem is trying to get home from work, if the disaster occurs during working hours. NRA Lawyer must have a pretty big trunk to store all those things in the vehicles!

My wife and I sat down to develop a plan; the only, perhaps bad, assumption, is that the home will be relatively intact after the disaster.

We tried to work out communications, predetermined evacuation points if we are separated (including evacuating to Las Vegas somehow if the left coast disappears), and what to do with the kids and grandparents. Water, food, medicine and fuel would last about 5 days.

As a family, we've humped miles through rainforests in over 100 degree temps with limited supplies, but throw in the looting and carnage that may happen as well as the disruption to the road system... I'm not sure I'll be able to make it home by car.

I guess I'll need to be prepared to hump 20 miles with essential gear to hook up with the wife at her work then to home. I'm contemplating storing the blackhawk gear and some other stuff in the SUV. But how do explain all the gear to the valets at Ruth's Chris?





It'd be nice to drive a well built rockcrawling rig in a shft. and with some 4wheeling skills, you may be able to make it home by going over obstacles that's crossable.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:08:45 PM EDT
This talk about traffic is the main reason why I hate the idea of my town growing at the rate it is.

I live in Bakersfield and there are few places in this town where I would consider myself getting "locked in" that I couldn't manage to find some way of escaping out. There are canals, train tracks, curbs, and whatever else I gotta do to get to a road.

Once I get to a road that leads out of town I can do a round about to get to my home which is somewhat on the outskirts, hell I'll use the bike path if I have to and park my truck close to home while I grab supplies. If I choose to stay home I've got enough armament, ammo, and food to last for awhile. If I have to get out, I can get to the outskirts of town and there are more than enough surface roads that I can get access to so I can either go east up to the Breckenridge Mountains or west to the California Valley.

Our house is built well enough it should survive a pretty major earthquake, sheer walled the hell out of the bigger rooms. The construction of this house is also the reason behind why I'm not very concerned with over penetration of 5.56x45mm within my dwelling.


I just wish I had a more suitable off road vehicle. I can get my 2 wheel drive Ranger to quite a few places as it is if I use my head but something like a well built Jeep Laredo or Cherokee would be a bit more suitable.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:46:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 7:48:51 AM EDT by Mike_Mills]
LET ME SUMMARIZE THIS TEDIOUS POST FOR YOU GUYS:



Originally Posted By nfalawyer:


YADDAH, YADDAH, YADDAH,...


BUG IN NOT OUT!

YADDAH, YADDAH, YADDAH,...

SHOOT ARSONISTS ON SIGHT!

YADDAH, YADDAH, YADDAH,...

USE HEADS ON PIKES NOT SIGNS AS A WARNING TO OUTLAWS!

YADDAH, YADDAH, YADDAH,...

GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!

YADDAH, YADDAH, YADDAH,...

YOU CANNOT HAVE TOO MUCH WATER.


YADDAH, YADDAH, YADDAH,...

OWN THE NIGHT OR YOU WILL BE OWNED AT NIGHT!

YADDAH, YADDAH, YADDAH,....

MONEY TALKS AND BULLSHIT WALKS!

YADDAH, YADDAH, YADDAH,...

Have I forgetten anything?




Yes< you have -

DO IT TODAY!

P.S. - nfalawyer, yours was a great post and I didn't mean to stomp on it. Consider this the Reader's Digest verison of it.
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