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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/9/2005 3:09:32 PM EDT
My understanding is that the CLEO in the city of Alexandria will not sign off on Form 4s. Has anyone incorporated for NFA transfers in Virginia? How complicated is the process?

Thanks,

tt
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 3:26:56 PM EDT
I'm looking into the process as well. It doesn't look very complicated at all. Check out the State Corporation Commission website for some good info, including their business registration guide.

www.scc.virginia.gov/division/clk/index.htm

Link Posted: 7/10/2005 4:11:16 AM EDT
I've heard there is a richmond based lawyer(?) that is very 2a friendly that helps out in these things. If interested I'll see if I can find his name. IIRC, he's help several do this for the same reason.
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 5:21:55 AM EDT
I am definitely interested.

Thanks,

tt
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 6:50:04 AM EDT
I've thought about going this route myself, as I'm in Arlington. Now all I need is the $$ to get something class 3. THAT'S the hard part!
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 7:02:51 AM EDT
Get behind this and they'll be required to sign. It will make VA more MG friendly than MD.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?051+ful+HB1978
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 8:12:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By J_E_D:
Get behind this and they'll be required to sign. It will make VA more MG friendly than MD.

I fixed it.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?051+ful+HB1978

House Bill 1978
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 9:33:23 AM EDT
That bill was killed in committee in February.

leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?051+sum+HB1978

I have been told it will be reintroduced in the next session.
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 10:36:49 AM EDT
I've also told HB1978 will be reintroduced, but I wonder if it will make it out of the senate. It passed the House 96-2 (or something like that), but was killed in committee by the maroons in the senate.
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 11:03:14 AM EDT
I would consider a LLC rather than creating a corporation. It is a lot easier, operates under your SSN, no seperate tax return, etc. I did it and my transfers fly through just fine. Just copy the certificate of LLC, stuff it in the envelope with your check for $200, and wait for your paperwork to return. No police permission, no photos, no prints and a lot faster.

Link Posted: 7/10/2005 1:55:00 PM EDT
So what is better to do this route or just go the form 4 if you can get the sign offs?
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 2:16:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2005 2:17:07 PM EDT by Arc_Angel]

Originally Posted By DarkViper:
So what is better to do this route or just go the form 4 if you can get the sign offs?



Try for the signatures first. The problem with incorporating is that the corporation owns it, not you, so if for whatever reason you can't keep the corporation alive due to finances, or whatever, I think you're screwed!

On another note, I think you can get state police, judges, or the state attorney general to sign also. I realize this is probably a lot harder, but it's always another option. I seem to remember reading this on www.titleii.com/. I live in Loudoun, so getting signatures is not a problem.

Link Posted: 7/10/2005 2:27:00 PM EDT
Can a Commonwealth Attorney sign it? My good friends brother holds that position in our town. I think the CLEO is anti, so if I wanted a SBR, I could get my friends brother to sign it(hopefully).
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 3:29:19 PM EDT
Tirador223, do you have an annual fee?
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 4:21:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arc_Angel:

Originally Posted By DarkViper:
So what is better to do this route or just go the form 4 if you can get the sign offs?



Try for the signatures first. The problem with incorporating is that the corporation owns it, not you, so if for whatever reason you can't keep the corporation alive due to finances, or whatever, I think you're screwed!

On another note, I think you can get state police, judges, or the state attorney general to sign also. I realize this is probably a lot harder, but it's always another option. I seem to remember reading this on www.titleii.com/. I live in Loudoun, so getting signatures is not a problem.




If the corp can not be maintained you simply "sell it" to yourself and cover the $200 tax....

Now if you can't afford the $200 tax to transfer it to yourself, then you are f'ed...but I think I could scrounge up $200 in pennies if need be.
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 4:51:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Arc_Angel:

Originally Posted By DarkViper:
So what is better to do this route or just go the form 4 if you can get the sign offs?



Try for the signatures first. The problem with incorporating is that the corporation owns it, not you, so if for whatever reason you can't keep the corporation alive due to finances, or whatever, I think you're screwed!

On another note, I think you can get state police, judges, or the state attorney general to sign also. I realize this is probably a lot harder, but it's always another option. I seem to remember reading this on www.titleii.com/. I live in Loudoun, so getting signatures is not a problem.




If the corp can not be maintained you simply "sell it" to yourself and cover the $200 tax....

Now if you can't afford the $200 tax to transfer it to yourself, then you are f'ed...but I think I could scrounge up $200 in pennies if need be.



You still have to get the CLEO signature and go through the approval to buy it from the corporation though, don't you?

Link Posted: 7/10/2005 4:57:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arc_Angel:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Arc_Angel:

Originally Posted By DarkViper:
So what is better to do this route or just go the form 4 if you can get the sign offs?



Try for the signatures first. The problem with incorporating is that the corporation owns it, not you, so if for whatever reason you can't keep the corporation alive due to finances, or whatever, I think you're screwed!

On another note, I think you can get state police, judges, or the state attorney general to sign also. I realize this is probably a lot harder, but it's always another option. I seem to remember reading this on www.titleii.com/. I live in Loudoun, so getting signatures is not a problem.




If the corp can not be maintained you simply "sell it" to yourself and cover the $200 tax....

Now if you can't afford the $200 tax to transfer it to yourself, then you are f'ed...but I think I could scrounge up $200 in pennies if need be.



You still have to get the CLEO signature and go through the approval to buy it from the corporation though, don't you?



...oh yeah.....I forgot that some of you are looking at it to avoid the LEO sig....I am looking at it for shorter wait periods.

My bad.

I'd move -- seriously.
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 5:05:51 PM EDT
ok my next question is can it be any corporation or does it have to have a specific scope say like security or someting of that sort
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 5:06:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2005 5:06:51 PM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By DarkViper:
ok my next question is can it be any corporation or does it have to have a specific scope say like security or someting of that sort



Any corporation....
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 5:15:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Arc_Angel:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Arc_Angel:

Originally Posted By DarkViper:
So what is better to do this route or just go the form 4 if you can get the sign offs?



Try for the signatures first. The problem with incorporating is that the corporation owns it, not you, so if for whatever reason you can't keep the corporation alive due to finances, or whatever, I think you're screwed!

On another note, I think you can get state police, judges, or the state attorney general to sign also. I realize this is probably a lot harder, but it's always another option. I seem to remember reading this on www.titleii.com/. I live in Loudoun, so getting signatures is not a problem.




If the corp can not be maintained you simply "sell it" to yourself and cover the $200 tax....

Now if you can't afford the $200 tax to transfer it to yourself, then you are f'ed...but I think I could scrounge up $200 in pennies if need be.



You still have to get the CLEO signature and go through the approval to buy it from the corporation though, don't you?



...oh yeah.....I forgot that some of you are looking at it to avoid the LEO sig....I am looking at it for shorter wait periods.

My bad.

I'd move -- seriously.



No kidding! There are lots of good reasons to move out of Alexandria and Arlington both.
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 2:06:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2005 2:25:33 PM EDT by Tirador223]

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
Tirador223, do you have an annual fee?




Yeah - I think it is about $100.

I got into this after a lawyer advised me that for liability reasons I should buy a rental property I was looking at in the name of a LLC. I bought the property, then made the awful discovery that the LLC could buy NFA toys far easier than I could.

This has been a very pleasant, very,very expensive discovery from which I have yet to recover. I have had a lot of fun, but it was a corner I turned as a gun owner.

This message constitutes fair warning.
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 6:29:12 PM EDT
Is there an anual fee?
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 6:43:10 PM EDT
Shit, my business is ALREADY incorporated in VA......I shouldn't have clicked on this thread!


Link Posted: 7/11/2005 8:48:24 PM EDT
I got to the Monday night shoot here in Richmond, but all I asked couldn't remember the lawyers name. It's not a bright group that I shoot with (couldn't resist, at least one is reading this thread).

I can check a few more people, but everyone said that it wasn't hard to do, that any lawyer would be able to and that most individuals could too.

I'll post back if I ever get his name.
Link Posted: 7/12/2005 1:49:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:
Shit, my business is ALREADY incorporated in VA......I shouldn't have clicked on this thread!



Heh heh heh. Your fate was sealed by the time you finished reading the title in the list of postings.

In comparison, the NFA Jones makes the dreaded Black Rifle Disease seem like a vague yearning for something salty.

Link Posted: 7/14/2005 7:36:59 AM EDT
I have looked at the links and the one time $100 doesnt seem bad to avoid a lot of hastle. However, if there is a $100 anual fee then that is bad. Can anyone elaborate?
Link Posted: 7/14/2005 2:23:57 PM EDT
As an Alexandria resident, I have also been considering this - the LLC route.

Are there any storage requirements, requirements for alarm, etc? Need for a separate physical business addy?

I use a commerical mail drop (eg UPS Store) and have done so for years. They recently changed mail box numbers but allowed me to retain my old # (it is a cubbyhole with my old # on the other side) and the new #, which I am not using. It occurs to me that my hypothetical LLC could just be the new #, same box.

Link Posted: 7/18/2005 5:18:36 PM EDT
No one has still been able to answer the question if it requires an anual fee. I saw $25 somewhere but I thought that was for a tax id num.
Link Posted: 7/18/2005 5:58:05 PM EDT
For an LLC only from the Virginia Limited Liability Company Act

leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+13.1-1062

$100 to file, and from that, it looks like $50 per year on or before Sept 1 of every year.

The wording is kind of confusing to me though. Depending on how I read this, I can see getting charged $100 (articles of reinstatement, depending on how one defines reinstatement), $50 (from the bits cited above), or $10 (application to renew a name, but that's just a placeholder for a business name, not an actual business if I'm reading the code right). I'm fairly certain it's $50 per year for an LLC, but I'm no lawyer.



State code for all types of corporations (be prepared to do a lot of reading)
Link Posted: 7/18/2005 6:14:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2005 6:21:19 PM EDT by KogaShuko]
I just found it. There is no annual fee with an LLC. I will call the VCC tomarrow just to make sure.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 2:27:23 AM EDT
There's no fee to file your annual report. There is still an annual registration fee. From your link:


The commission mails an Annual Assessment Packet, containing a preprinted annual report form and a notice of annual registration fee assessment, to the registered agent of each active domestic and foreign stock and non-stock corporation at the registered office address on file with the commission approximately 75 days before the annual report and registration fee payment are due.


That would be the $50 mentioned earlier.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 4:39:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 4:40:36 AM EDT by larrycwdc]
IMO, one of the reasons for the implacable stance of the local governments here in La República de la Gente Democrática Arlandria (the Democratic People's Republic of Arlandria, for those that do not speak our native language) is the fact that the locality can assess an annual tax (business and real property) on all of a corporate entity's property. The resultant annual levy on each of the firearm's value makes corporate ownership of NFA firearms much more expensive than any costs -- recurring or otherwise -- of establishing the business. Further, I suspect that these taxes might not be deductible from one's personal income tax (e.g., as business expenses), unless the corporation exists for bona fide business purposes.

How about it, those of you readers with connections to RKBA legislators, VCDL, etc?
    Because of the potential infringement on a Commonwealth citizen's right to keep and bear arms, any hope for non-preemptable legislation that prohibits, by any jurisdiction (other than the Federal government, of course):

  • Taxation incidental to the ownership of firearms -- including but not limited to the taxation of firearms as real property; and

  • Levying of taxes beyond the locality's prevailing sales tax rate pursuant to acquiring, disposing, or otherwise transferring ownership of a firearm?

I can live with the CLEO's determination of oversight requirements associated with NFA firearms ownership, intrusive as they might be. I can't live with having to pay an annual tax on these high-value items ... especially to a bunch of second-ammendment haters 'working' in 'our' service. This tax materially infringes on my right to keep and bear arms!
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 3:08:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By larrycwdc:
I can live with the CLEO's determination of oversight requirements associated with NFA firearms ownership, intrusive as they might be. I can't live with having to pay an annual tax on these high-value items ... especially to a bunch of second-ammendment haters 'working' in 'our' service. This tax materially infringes on my right to keep and bear arms!



Move out to Loudoun! The more voting gunowners we have, the longer we'll be able to keep an NFA-friendly Sherriff elected.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 8:42:39 PM EDT
The $50 fee is for the professional limited liabaility corporation which is a different code section he is linked to. It doesnt list a fee in the code for a regular LLC. I am going to call and ask the VCC tomorrow because I didnt get time today.
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 5:12:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arc_Angel:
Move out to Loudoun! The more voting gunowners we have, the longer we'll be able to keep an NFA-friendly Sherriff elected.


Would that I were independently wealthy, or my circumstances allowed for a long commute ...

I'm stuck here in Arlington (between Guatemala and Honduras) so that I can meet work obligations (most of our client sites are located in the District or the adjacent counties), while not being absent from my house longer than ca. 10 hours at a stretch. (Ten hours is a self-imposed limit that results from several factors.)

The crux of the problem is that all citizens of the Commonwealth should be afforded "uninfringed" access to firearms as guaranteed by the Commonwealth's constitution (summarized here) and the U.S. constitution. The fact that the CLEO "disapproval" does not impact an individual's ability to possess and control corporately owned NFA firearms in the CLEO's jurisdiction speaks volumes with respect to the legitimacy of the rationale CLEO's cite for their disapproval (e.g., because of crime statistics or simlar horsesh*t).

Bottom-line IMO, in RKBA-hating jurisdictions that levy tax on the ownership of such weapons, one must pay dearly to exercise the constitutionally guaranteed right to own NFA firearms ... that is if one has the wherewithal. Those without such monies to waste, can not exercise their right, which has supposedly been guaranteed at both the Federal and Commonwealth level.
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 12:58:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
The $50 fee is for the professional limited liabaility corporation which is a different code section he is linked to. It doesnt list a fee in the code for a regular LLC. I am going to call and ask the VCC tomorrow because I didnt get time today.



I believe you may be mistaken. The link for fees I provided is clearly for a standard LLC. No fee structure is called out in Chapter 13 for Professional LLCs. However, § 13.1-1122 states that those sections of Chapter 12 (Standard LLC Act) which are not preempted by Chapter 13 (Professional LLC Act) are in effect for Chapter 13 LLCs. Thus, Professional LLCs also have to pay $50 per year in addition to their initial filing fees.


Originally Posted By larrycwdc:
The crux of the problem is that all citizens of the Commonwealth should be afforded "uninfringed" access to firearms as guaranteed by the Commonwealth's constitution (summarized here) and the U.S. constitution. The fact that the CLEO "disapproval" does not impact an individual's ability to possess and control corporately owned NFA firearms in the CLEO's jurisdiction speaks volumes with respect to the legitimacy of the rationale CLEO's cite for their disapproval (e.g., because of crime statistics or simlar horsesh*t).



No kidding. While I had not considered that particular point of view, it has it's merits.

Of course, we all know how closely some CLEOs like to follow the law. Case in point: remember how earlier this year the Hampton PD Chief (and the City Council) wanted to conveniently "forget" about the anti-preemption law for Bay Days? Keep law abiding CHP holders out! Arrest them if they exercise their rights! It's all in the name of making the streets "safer", so it must be good!

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 4:34:44 AM EDT
I thought about starting a new thread, but figured I would add on to this one instead. I have thought a lot about forming an LLC so I could own class 3 stuff, but I don't want to deal with the maintenance of an LLC (as little as it might be).

Since the sheriff will not sign off here I am going to ask the Commonwealth's attorney. I want to make a convincing argument. Are there sections of Virginia code I can point him to that pertain to NFA weapons? Or what can I politely say that will hopefully convince him to sign?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:41:03 PM EDT
Qoute:I've thought about going this route myself, as I'm in Arlington. Now all I need is the $$ to get something class 3. THAT'S the hard part!



What is Arlington just like Alexandria not signing of transfers?

If it is Im definetly moving to loudoun county.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:55:50 AM EDT
The Commonwealth's Attorney doesn't "have to" sign anything, any more than the Sheriff or the Chief of Police. In fact, since the CA (like the Sheriff) is an elected, constitutional officer, he can pretty much tell anyone he wants to piss off. Circuit Court clerks are elected constitutional officers too, and they can and do tell judges and even the Supreme Court of Virginia to piss off.

The only way I can think of that you can MAKE somebody sign NFA paperwork is if you ask them to sign, they refuse, then you file a bill in equity in circuit court requesting mandamus to force the person to do the act. Of course, you must in that bill explain why the person has an absolute duty to do so. There is probably enough wiggle room in the statutes for the CA/Sheriff/Whomever to successfully argue that they are not required to sign.

If you want to do an LLC, you really don't need a lawyer. I am a lawyer in Richmond and would be happy to help anyone with this stuff, but you could do the same thing for less at a site like this:

http://www.mynewcompany.com/

Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:33:05 AM EDT
Thanks for the info. I know that I can't make him sign it and that he doesn't have to. That's why I was asking for a way to politely ask while also providing evidence that it's not illegal in case he doesn't know. I have met the CA here and I would be surprised if he signs, but I figure it doesn't hurt to ask.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:08:32 PM EDT
Some attorneys assert that an LLC with no income, expenses, etc. solely for the purpose of full-auto ownership is a piercing of the corporate veil waiting to happen. It can be and has been done, but I researched it and am choosing not to do it.
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